Post by: DCM on January 16, 2005, 07:41:00 PM
I've experimented with natural deflex before. One made a nice bow and the other blew up on the tree. R/D puts a lot of load on midlimb. This piece is mostly natural like you see it. I adjusted upper limb just a bit to catch it up to the lower. Some of you who know me have probably seen this bow before. I've been "working" on it for several years.
I got a string on it today and finally got it tracking center. It still has some twist and wobble but is improved enough to proceed. It's kinda short for my tastes, just 62" NTN. I'd like a bow of 50#-53# @ 29". If I'm lucky I can get almost 28" of working limb. I left generous width at 1 1/2" but it has so much crown I may give up a little during tillering.
I figure I'll get it up to 40# @ 20" or so and see how much reflex it gives up. I wouldn't mind if the limbs finished nearly straight (to the deflex) but I'm prepared to sinew the bow if necessary. The handle is deflexed where the tree grew past a dead limb. It's still in there, mostly, being split and partly fallen out. I filled the area with super glue and I'll hope for the best. It did a bit of creaking and cracking at first but seems to have settled down. I've had it up to 40# several times on the tree, before I glued it.
Theres a little other character with a couple of small thru holes. Each limb has a little hickey where I dodged past a knot.
Reckon I'll make it without sinew? When you reckon that knot in the handle is gonna pop?
http://home.midsouth.rr.com/ddmims/ss1.JPG
http://home.midsouth.rr.com/ddmims/ss2.JPG
http://home.midsouth.rr.com/ddmims/ss3.JPG
Post by: Dano on January 16, 2005, 07:57:00 PM
!["[dntthnk]"]("graemlins/dntthnk.gif" "\"\"")
:D I just lost one due to a big knot, I thought it had done all the crakin and popin it was going to do then POW!!!I bet you got enough wood around it so it holds.
Post by: Flatstick on January 16, 2005, 07:58:00 PM
Post by: Timo on January 16, 2005, 08:01:00 PM
29"? I'll be watching.Should be a screamer!
Nice colors!
Post by: G on January 16, 2005, 08:02:00 PM
Post by: Madpigslayer on January 16, 2005, 08:07:00 PM
!["[tunglaff]"]("graemlins/tunglaff.gif" "\"\"")
(she broke ME)good luck David. I hope your experience is better than mine was. :)
Post by: John Scifres on January 16, 2005, 08:18:00 PM
Post by: Chris Wilson on January 16, 2005, 08:31:00 PM
Post by: Shaun on January 17, 2005, 12:37:00 AM
Post by: Jason Lester on January 17, 2005, 12:59:00 AM
Post by: Dave Bulla on January 17, 2005, 01:30:00 AM
How big of a worry is limb twist during draw with that prominent of a curve in the one limb?
Also, refresh me, which side of that curve do you need to thin to keep it tracking straight? Outside????
Post by: cjones on January 17, 2005, 04:20:00 AM
Post by: Linc on January 17, 2005, 04:53:00 AM
Post by: Marc on January 17, 2005, 06:06:00 AM
Post by: clintopher on January 17, 2005, 07:39:00 AM
Clint
Post by: Steve Harville on January 17, 2005, 09:24:00 AM
Post by: sticshooter on January 17, 2005, 09:38:00 AM
Post by: mich-mtnman on January 17, 2005, 09:53:00 AM
lots of bends and twistys .lol
i like the natural deflex. nice lookin snakey twig! :saywhat:
Post by: DCM on January 17, 2005, 03:49:00 PM
I couldn't ask for better string alignment and the twist is well under control. You can see one limb twisted away from you and one to you in the pic. It balances dead center straight (side to side).
To be honest I don't know if it's in tiller or not. How does one judge a straight limb?
Actually the lower limb (left) has a little hickey I've been smoothing along on but other then that I think they are even. I've got the nocks and width near final shape and rough sanding done. It's just fine tuning from here.
I left it soak in super glue over night. It creaked and popped on the first bracing, right in that knot. I'm afraid to pull it any more so I left it braced. Maybe it will be more friendly with a low impact workout. ;-)
http://home.midsouth.rr.com/ddmims/ss4.JPG
Here's picture of the kill joy.
http://home.midsouth.rr.com/ddmims/ss5.JPG
Post by: rocdoc on January 17, 2005, 04:04:00 PM
Please don't stress that knott area any more! :(
No kiddin' man, that's one kool looking bow-to-be. If you've got sinew I wouldn't do any more bending on it 'till I had it sinewed REAL good! I'd put a thick sinew 'patch' over that knott and then get the rest of the bow. No need takin' a chance of bustin' it. It's really got a nice shape to it now and sinew is only gonna help. (jmho)
Post by: DCM on January 17, 2005, 04:04:00 PM
http://home.midsouth.rr.com/ddmims/rdb1.JPG
http://home.midsouth.rr.com/ddmims/rdb2.JPG
http://home.midsouth.rr.com/ddmims/rdb3.JPG
Post by: Jimmy on January 17, 2005, 04:13:00 PM
Jim Nichols
Post by: DCM on January 17, 2005, 04:58:00 PM
I figure 9x3 is 25# anyway and that plus 40# is 10 or so more than I need. I'll put 20 scrapes down both limbs and soften up that inner limb on the left (lower). My index finger and thumb had mentioned that area before we saw it on the tree. They don't usually steer me wrong.
http://home.midsouth.rr.com/ddmims/ss6.JPG
Post by: Dano on January 17, 2005, 05:14:00 PM
Post by: DCM on January 17, 2005, 05:35:00 PM
Here it is 42# at 22". 20 scrapes don't count for much I don't reckon. I may have to sharpen that thing. Both sides pictured. A twisted bow like this will lie to you like a teenager on Saturday night. Haven't decided yet whether I like the tiller. I know I want to take some work out of mid limb. Still shows little or no sign of set, that I can determine.
http://home.midsouth.rr.com/ddmims/ss7.JPG
Post by: kcdaniels on January 17, 2005, 05:40:00 PM
It sure is a cool looking soon to be bow.
Dan
Post by: DCM on January 17, 2005, 05:41:00 PM
What say you?
May get a little session in later on after supper.
Post by: NEW GUY on January 17, 2005, 05:58:00 PM
Post by: Josh_IOWA on January 17, 2005, 06:00:00 PM
Post by: DCM on January 17, 2005, 06:11:00 PM
DCM ain't askeered.
Post by: Linc on January 17, 2005, 06:14:00 PM
Post by: Timo on January 17, 2005, 07:26:00 PM
I think I missed a page? Is the upper limb the one with the knot? If so,then I'd think I'd swipe that intire length. The bottom....maybe a little of the first 1/3???
Man that thing has me scratchin ma head!!!
Heck I just don't know!!! I'm sure you'll do her proud!
Post by: crosseye on January 17, 2005, 08:11:00 PM
stan
Post by: Sparky on January 17, 2005, 08:18:00 PM
Way cool David...that is a "frankin-bow" for sure. Nice work bud...looks like some of that nitro Osage, awesome character. Hope ya bring her home...
Sparky
Post by: Dave Bulla on January 17, 2005, 08:46:00 PM
Get it tillered out to 31 inches and send her to me at:
Aw, never mind. :bigsmyl: :bigsmyl:
I ain't worthy... :rolleyes: :notworthy:
Post by: Dano on January 17, 2005, 08:47:00 PM
Post by: AZStickman on January 17, 2005, 09:08:00 PM
Post by: George Tsoukalas on January 17, 2005, 09:21:00 PM
Post by: DCM on January 17, 2005, 09:25:00 PM
My girls (wife and daugther) have taken to watching rodeo Terry. Evidently the lady that owns the barn where they ride got them started. Tried to drag me to the show here a short while back on a Saturday night. I told 'em I had to go huntin in the morning. Last thing a man needs is his wife and daughter BOTH pinin' over cowboys!
I about got her rode. Here shown drawn 43# @ 23" after mucho scraping and sanding. I've just about got to get the tiller on in the next inch or two. Limbs and nocks just about fully shaped, rounded and contoured.
http://home.midsouth.rr.com/ddmims/ss8.JPG
On this pic I still don't like the looks of that hingy spot on the hicky. This is the outer left limb (lower). I know there is twist and it will show different on the other side. Inner limb still stiff. Right limb looks stiff still but coming in the middle. Again twist is a working.
http://home.midsouth.rr.com/ddmims/ss9.JPG
Now when you look what she's hiding behind her back the lower limb (right) looks ok in that hicky but still stiff inner. Upper limb (left) looks like it could work more in the inner 1/2.
Still no set I can detect. Ya'll see any set?
Post by: Dano on January 17, 2005, 09:38:00 PM
Post by: Sparky on January 17, 2005, 09:38:00 PM
Sparky
Post by: DCM on January 17, 2005, 09:43:00 PM
The camera man got a little crooked Sparky. Tilt yer haid about 5 degrees to the left, about like a bird dog does when you ask it to fetch a beer.
Post by: Timo on January 17, 2005, 10:14:00 PM
I keep wanting to say...inner on both?
Hell just doit! I bet it'll breath fire!
(wife asked...."why you tilting your head") :knothead:
Post by: John Scifres on January 17, 2005, 10:35:00 PM
Post by: Dave Bulla on January 17, 2005, 10:36:00 PM
Ya know, I'm wondering (and with my lack of hands on experience that's dagerous) but is there maybe a lot less stress in that bow than what ya might think at first? I mean with that much deflex in the handle I'm wondering if maybe it's a whole lot easier to get the draw length out of it? Not so much because of the position of the handle to the plane of the bow (kinda reversed handle result) but that PLUS the angle of the limbs coming out of the handle seem like it might have some serious benefits to making a long smooth draw.
Am I way off on this?
How much does the reflex counteract the deflex?
Post by: Sparky on January 17, 2005, 10:51:00 PM
Sparky
Post by: RainCrow on January 18, 2005, 10:38:00 AM
-Terry
Post by: DCM on January 18, 2005, 05:58:00 PM
On the twist tillering and the curved limb thing, I take wood off the side that don't bend enough. I want the limb to lay flat when it's braced. It sounds simple and evasive but it works. Kinda like twisting a flemish string, too easy to explain in words.
On the nature of deflexed handle geometry, you should read Adam's article if you haven't. I think it is a reprint but was in the most recent PA. If you don't subscribe you should. It's prolly still available on some newsstands.
Your intuition is correct. It's easier to get more draw with less string angle and the inner limbs are less loaded. The Shrew et. al. ain't made like that by accident.
On this bow the nocks seem to lay about 1" behind the handle (net deflex) when compared to a conventional handle geometry.
Post by: Adam Keiper on January 18, 2005, 06:12:00 PM
Post by: George Tsoukalas on January 18, 2005, 06:14:00 PM
Post by: George Tsoukalas on January 18, 2005, 06:16:00 PM
Post by: DCM on January 18, 2005, 08:37:00 PM
Post by: DCM on January 18, 2005, 09:30:00 PM
http://home.midsouth.rr.com/ddmims/ss10.JPG
I can see it took maybe 1/2" of set from working if that much. I would be surprised if it didn't rest back. I confess the tiller is hard to read but when you work the bow all the wood seems to move. Happily the handle does not, appear to move.
http://home.midsouth.rr.com/ddmims/ss11.JPG
Opposing sides again. The upper limb (right in top pic) appears a little proud but flattens on the reverse side. Twist. I ain't done studyin' on it but I can't say I'm not pleased so far.
http://home.midsouth.rr.com/ddmims/ss12.JPG
A little trick photography. Whether the tiller is right or not it looks even to me this way.
I've shot it a few times 20" draw or so. I need to start shooting it more, but I'm a little askeered. ;0(
Post by: NEW GUY on January 18, 2005, 09:51:00 PM
Post by: James Wrenn on January 18, 2005, 09:51:00 PM
Post by: clintopher on January 18, 2005, 10:05:00 PM
Clint
Post by: Timo on January 18, 2005, 10:11:00 PM
Really, I'm not sure what it's suppose to look like,but I think that's about it!
Just curious as to about what your limb thickness is?
Post by: Linc on January 19, 2005, 04:48:00 AM
Dave that is one mighty fine lookin bow.
Post by: John Scifres on January 19, 2005, 08:44:00 AM
Post by: DCM on January 19, 2005, 08:47:00 AM
Timo,
About like this [holding fingers up]. ;-) The limbs are a right smart thicker than you'd expect at the fades. They are thinner than you'd expect on the mid and outer limb. They are a smidge wide for the weight and crown about like that carrot wood you gave me at MoJam.
I'll put a ruler on it tonight but I can only get measures in precision of about +/- 1/32". All I got is a regular carpenter's tape and I need me some bi-focals real bad. It's getting down right embarassing.
This bow tillered about like a r/d bbo once I got the string on it and the irregularities corrected. Honestly, it went a lot easier than I expected. I bet I ain't got 4 hours total working time in the whole shooting match after the first post.
Post by: Chris Wilson on January 19, 2005, 06:01:00 PM
Post by: DCM on January 19, 2005, 06:22:00 PM
Maybe I'll wait and let YOU shoot it in at Twin Oaks. ;-)
RH is running 30% to 35% in my hot box lately. I'm thinking about letting this bow pick up a little moisture before I stress it max.
Post by: Glasspoint on January 19, 2005, 08:09:00 PM
Post by: Glasspoint on January 19, 2005, 08:10:00 PM
Post by: DCM on January 19, 2005, 10:55:00 PM
http://home.midsouth.rr.com/ddmims/ss13.JPG
Timo,
The limb dimensions are:
Lower - 26" long, 1 7/16" x 5/8" fades, 1 1/4" x 7/16" midlimb, 13/16" x 5/16" 2" from nocks.
Upper - 27" long, 1 3/8" x 5/8" fades, 1 1/4" x 7/16" midlimb, 3/4" x 3/8" 2" from nocks.
The nocks and outer limbs are a bit fat yet and while it shoots good, and fast like a new bow, it does hum a mite. Feels like it needs a proper string. My tiller string is a fright.
Post by: Timo on January 19, 2005, 11:00:00 PM
Keep them pics comin
Post by: Hartung on January 20, 2005, 06:55:00 AM
Quote
Originally posted by DCM:...and some hints on how to tiller that kind of reflex, DCM please :confused:
... For some of you aspiring bowyers, all that stands between you and a project like this is some bow wood and courage.
DCM :thumbsup:
Thanks!
Post by: AZStickman on January 20, 2005, 07:33:00 AM
Post by: reflx-shtr on January 20, 2005, 07:39:00 AM
Outstanding Dave.
Post by: DCM on January 20, 2005, 08:22:00 AM
Like you I love it when folks post pics.
Terry,
I might have her rode but I ain't out from under foot by a long shot.
Leo,
Reflexed bows tiller just like all the others. Just be patient and take wood where it doesn't bend enough. It does take a little getting used to the stiff triangular look at brace height though.
Lonnie,
You are a great bowyer for the experience you have. In fact I see a majority of new bowyers early bows are much better than mine were. Honestly, tillering this bow once I got the string on and centered was as easy as any simple board or straight stave bow you'll make.
Post by: John Sturtevant on January 20, 2005, 05:13:00 PM
Used to enjoy nothing more then taking a piece of the weirdest wood I could find and trying to talk it into being a bow.
Whether it wanted to or not.
Haven’t done that for quite some time now, but this inspires me to go scrounge thru the burn pile behind the shed. :)
Really a wonderful job David.
Post by: DCM on January 20, 2005, 07:54:00 PM
Post by: George Tsoukalas on January 20, 2005, 08:02:00 PM
Post by: DCM on January 20, 2005, 10:16:00 PM
http://home.midsouth.rr.com/ddmims/ss14.JPG
Some serious consideration is called for here. I don't want to settle for a 40# bow. I only need a lil taste of more strenght. 50# ain't much more than 45#. Sinew isn't really the option in a repair like this. As it's at the arrow pass no kind of wrap suits me.
http://home.midsouth.rr.com/ddmims/ss15.JPG
I'm considering a thru hole, or blind hole and pin it with a solid piece and URAC. I really need to see what's down in there and fill it if I can. Only other thing I can think of is take the crud out from the top and then fill it in from there.
Suggestions?
Post by: Timo on January 20, 2005, 10:38:00 PM
Will the urac cure in the center well enough?
Or you could epoxy a metel "shoot through" roll pin,and call it center shot?8^
Post by: horseapple on January 20, 2005, 11:07:00 PM
Joe Don
Post by: frankb on January 21, 2005, 01:10:00 AM
You're still 'Da Man!
That was one heck of a fun build-along, bud.
-Frankb
Post by: DCM on January 21, 2005, 08:31:00 AM
Thanks Frank. I enjoy when folks post build alongs as well.
After sleeping on this problem I'm more inclined towards working the knot out from the top. I think if I could get a solid rod about that diameter down in there it would hold up fine. Trouble with one of these unusual problems is you don't run into a lot of folks with direct experience.
More suggestions please.
Post by: rocdoc on January 21, 2005, 08:50:00 AM
Post by: Hammerhead on January 21, 2005, 09:04:00 AM
That is one truly wild looking bow. I like it.
Post by: John Scifres on January 21, 2005, 09:16:00 AM
Post by: DCM on January 21, 2005, 10:23:00 AM
I think it's popping right in the top of that knot. I posted the pic with sanding dust to show where the crack is.
I'm trying to work up enough courage to ignore it but it was loud enough, and as I was drawing it by hand I could feel it, noticable enough to alarm any experienced bowyer.
I'm gonna go into the top with a dremel tool this weekend and see what it looks like.
Post by: AZStickman on January 21, 2005, 10:32:00 AM
http://www.bowyersworkshop.com/plug.htm
Good Luck.... Terry
Post by: John Scifres on January 21, 2005, 11:24:00 AM
Post by: NEW GUY on January 21, 2005, 11:28:00 AM
Post by: Dave Bulla on January 21, 2005, 12:36:00 PM
Post by: AZStickman on January 21, 2005, 01:43:00 PM
Post by: the Ferret on January 21, 2005, 02:00:00 PM
Post by: DCM on January 21, 2005, 06:29:00 PM
I think for filler epoxy and sawdust is fine. I think for structural work I prefer replacing the bad part with real wood and URAC. This bow may have a lesson in it for me yet.
Post by: DCM on January 21, 2005, 07:30:00 PM
My idea is that this bow has in effect a Y in it where the branch that left the knot grew out from what became the main trunk. Well that branch has a pith line in it. We all know how weak a pith line is and this knot having been long dead didn't help matters. I got down about 3/16" with the dremel and it became obvious.
I think I can drill that pith line out with a 3/8" drill and dowel it with URAC be back in bidness. Only trouble is I kinda need to stay in that line of weak wood or I'll compromise it even more.
Now, how am I gonna figure out what angle to drill down into that knot? I'm thinking straight up and down like the handle runs. Or maybe at an angle to where I can see the pith line in the main trunk (lower limb)? Maybe I'll just jump up to a 1/2" bit and then whatever extra I get won't hurt and I'll have a better chance of staying in the pith line?
Post by: trashwood on January 21, 2005, 08:02:00 PM
rusty
Post by: DCM on January 21, 2005, 08:09:00 PM
Post by: Bob Barnes on January 23, 2005, 09:28:00 AM
Bob