Trad Gang
Topic Archives => Build Alongs => Topic started by: trashwood on February 23, 2005, 04:25:00 PM
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I call 'em butt bows cause most of the time I got shots with them I'm on my rear or at least on my knees. Hunting with the sub-52" requires a different mind set. The first thing ya need is knee pads. If ya'as shooting a sub-52 you are shooting it cause your either crawling in pig tunnel (knee pads manitory) or hole up in a little hidie hole.
If ya are 4x4 it thru the brush, cactus, and poison ivy ya need a pair of gloves. this keeps the cactus thorn, green brair claws, etc out of your hands. Ya need to cut the fingers off your shooting hand to get your tab on.
Now the tab is another thing. I have worked till I got my top two fingers strong enough to shoot the sub52 two fingers under up to 65#. If ya want to shoot the little bows split finger I sure recommend a tab with a spacer in it. Ya may have heard about short bows that don't have no finger pinch but I ain't never ever shot one. I have seen some guys shootering their shorties put enough pressure on the arrow with their top finger to spriung the arrow down. a spacer on your tab or two under will help youor groups a lot.
next thing is pratice. I don't know why in the world ya'd stand at the line and shoot your sub52. if ya can stand up and shot where your hunting ya didn't need a sub52 to start with. so practice like your gonna hunt....from a tree stand or on you rear.
the last thing is your expectations. If ya think you are gonna back up 20 yds and put 5 for 5 arrows in the heart you are mistaken (likely). I think the shorties are 10 to 15 yd bows. I have on lucky days hit a jack rabbit at 30 or 40 yds with a shortie but that was an unlucky jack rabbit.
I reallhy enjoy hunting with shorties be they sinew backed or glass backed. they are a productive bows. they make ya change your hunting philisophy and attitude. ya get down, get close and get quick :) all of 'em ar good things
rusty
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The next thing is your "elbow". ya will shoot your shortie with a lowish elbow or ya want hit the barn door. getting any kinda release at all requires pull'n 'em string finger in line with your power stroke. getting your fingers off smoothly at the same time is not easy with a shortie most of the time. ya gotta do everything ya can to help that situation.
rusty
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OH! and I guess it goes without saying less than a 30" draw :)
rusty
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Hunting the shorties does have a draw back....one time Wingnutty and I were hunting doe down at Gill's place. I found a dandy covered hidy hole in a blow down. I cleaned it out a little to be there the next morning. An hour before sunup I'as in my hide. Had a tree for a back rest. I was cool and misty. The sun finally came up to good light. The area was warming up and I could some foot steps. I was looking at a patch of very pretty red and brownish leaves, concentrating on the foot steps. I had just about made out their direction when the pretty patch of leaves start to crawl off about 3' from my boot.......I jumped about 6' straight out of my hide from a sitting postion as the copper head crawled off. the 4 doe i jumped in the middle of were as surprised as I was.......be careful where ya put your hidy hole. sumpin might life there too :)
rusty
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Rusty I have a tab that was designed by Jerry Killian up in Oregon.....I forget who manufactured it for him, I think it was Check it archery or something like that... but it was basically a 3-4" section of aluminum tubing with a slot down the length..... There was a dowell than had a leather strip wrapped around it and it slipped into the tube with the leather sticking out for the tab...... Both ends of the tube had plastic caps...there was an elastic strap that held the tab to your fingers.. It was designed for ya to shoot 2 fingers under with a 4 finger pull..... you had your pinky and index finger around the tubing and your middle finger and ring finger on the leather tab.... I shot an old shorty Damon Howatt Super Diablo with it for years and loved it.....I may dig it out to use on that 56" sinew backed static I had out on the Javie hunt....After shooting that thing all week the finger pinch was getting a bit irritating.... Gotta love those short brush bows..... Terry
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That sounds like a tab I better make some of. what diameter was the tube ya reckon?
rusty
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Here's some pics of the tab for ya.... I'm better with pics than words.... :)
http://bowyersworkshop.com/twofingertab.htm
It pays to be a packrat sometimes.... I've been packing that tab around for over 15 years...
Terry
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so your bottom two fingers were not on the string? just around the tube?
it worked pretty good huh?
rusty -so much to learn, so little brain- Criane
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Yep you've got 4 fingers sharing the load but you only have to get 2 off the string .... It took a little getting used to but I shot it real well....I'll have to give it a try again....Terry
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ah ha - as usual I had it wrong. I'm gonna give 'at sucker a try :)
thanks for the tip.
rusty
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dang that could solve several of my problems. My worst release hand faults are too much pressure on the bottom finger or too much perssure on the top finger depending on what side of the bed I got up on.
this here tab gets rib of my index finger and puts my bottom finger to work. life could be good....if an old dog can learn a new trick
rusty
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Whoaaaaaaa, excellent idea. I second the "tabalong" - that looks like the ticket for the shorties I plan on using this turkey season.
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Dang I thought a 62" bow was a 'shorty'. You boys are making them so short your going to need wheels on em preety soon.
LOL
Mike
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Great thread Rusty (as usual) ;) :wavey: :thumbsup:
Van - never shot a bow under 58" - TX !["[laffsmyl]"]("graemlins/laffsmyl.gif" "\"\"")
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Except for that 47" axle to axle Jennings :saywhat: :rolleyes: ....Van
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Van - the fact that ya never shot a bow under 58" just shows ya have good sense and ain't a masocist :)
rusty
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That tab is a great idea. But, keep in mind, that there are at least two other ancient and proven ways to release a short bow, 1) the "Amerind" pinch with two fingers under and 2) Oriental thumb ring.
Both of these alternate methods would require a good deal of retraining for people used to split finger or 3 under release methods. The pinch with 2 under would reqire arrows with fat nock areas and the thumb ring would require shooting from the opposite side of the bow, but they are both proven methods of shooting short bows.
Don
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I thought I'd make a quicky to see how it worked. I used a piece of privet (good strong tuff wood) that I use for arrow shafting. I put a slot in it with a deremel tool
http://www.trashwoodbow.com/javie05/shortietab1.jpg
of course as per usual I cut my leather tab too short and got to cut another one.
http://www.trashwoodbow.com/javie05/shortietab2.jpg
I think I will just stitch a roll of leather at the back os the slot to keep the leather from pulling thru.
got any better ideas for a quicky shortie tab?
rusty
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A friend of mine went with me to the Vanderpool Hill Country shoot a couple of years ago. He did not have a recurve to shoot so I lent him my wifes 52" Comanche static tipped recurve. First day we shot longbows, second day recurves. Now short bows are a bit tough to shoot well and this course is alway a challange to shoot anyway. About half way through the course he had either lost or broke (lots of rocks on this course) every arrow he brought with him. I started letting him use my arrows. He lost and broke several of mine by the time we finished.
When we got finished shooting the course he unstrung to bow, put it back in the case, hands it to me and says "tell Patsy thanks for letting me borrow her bow but I never want see it again".
I still laugh everytime I think about it!
And of course Wingnut was there and dressed very stylishly {;-)
Dave N/TX
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Looks like a good start.... I've been planning on making one for quite a while now..... I was going to use antler for the finger bar and slot it just like you did.... I like your leather roll Idea....You're gonna need a finger strap too or it will fly out of your hand on release..... :thumbsup: Terry
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Well OK OK Dave so 'em shorties are 8 to 10 yds bows.
Wingnut and I meet a fellow bowhunter at Vanderpool 3 yr ago. He indeed hunted with real short Indian bows. said he never shoot a deer ovr 12 feet away. build himself a wicciup in the middle of a rye field with r-bar and old carpet. just before he gets inside he makes an offering to the hunting spirits by puttin a ring of corn around his wicciup. :) his bows were like 36" flat bows. had some with sinew, some selfbows.
rusty
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Did your production tab have elastic across it or was it leather.
rusty
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It was elastic.... But leather would work just as well....It just keeps the tab on your hand after release.... Terry
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Don - I have used the augmented pinch method a lot. the thing is for some reason I have a hard time anchoring with the pinch method. I am a pause and release shooter. it is harder with the pinch release.
rusty
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Ah Terry I'll put me a elastic band on there. that way i could always use it as a herina belt from shooting this 63# shortie.
rusty
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Though I got to admit that the last couple of years Wingnut has been telling that my pause and release has become a creep and release style shooting. Ya jsut gotta creep the same amount each time :)
rusty
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Man, now ya got me thinking Rusty. There is a hunt coming up this spring where everything is out of pop-ups... Figure my bear 52 incher is the only bow to use. Guess I'm going to give it some practice and time, thanks for the thread.
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46 - i bet they'd wrok great in a pop up.
well the point of the thread is that shorties have a place if ya hunt them right. if ya think you gonna hunt them the same way ya hunt your 66" r/d "in the kill zone every time at 20 yds"...ya ain't.
They are exciting little things to hunt. ya are at spear chuncking distance. heck at shortie ranges I can even smell the pigs with my sinus ridden nose. See 'em big porkers bat their pretty eye lashes at ya. Plumb exciting.
rusty
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Rusty, I just finished up a really sweet sinew/osage bow Im using for the T-Sweat. I now am ready for a real shorty. I have a really nice piece of Mullberry worked down and a pile of sinew stripped. Please design my "shorty" for me. I will build it. Give me the total design for maybe something around 48-50" that I can kill pigs with at 10-12 feet. Thanks, Curtis
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How far back ya gonna draw it, what do ya want the draw wait to be?
rusty
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Bugger has me wondering how a 54-56" 'glass bow would work out....
After the hunt though. Too busy packing and making lists right now. ;)
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Heee heee - btw LiddleFedder! ya got the right attitude for a shortie bowhunter, PIGS AT 10 TO 12 FEET...no that there is excitment of the first order. If that don't get your heart a puumping, ya might try base jumping. :)
rusty
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Jeff I made a 58" ntn glass backed wooden belly bow for a javie hunt. I have since cut it down to 54" ntn (it is a bendy handle abo looking bow). I was just trying to see what a bullet wood belly would take with a glass back. 54" ntn drawing 55#@27" and still very little set.
rusty
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Ahh yes, good point Rusty. At yardages inside of 10 yards the bow shouldn't need to be more than 45-50#. 45# has served me quite nicely already. Draw length? I can still shoot well with a draw as short as 25". Get any shorter and I gotta pray first if Im expecting to hit what I am aiming at. We gonna recurve and bend through the handle? Gimme a width to start with. CK
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45#@25" mulberry....1&3/8 48" ntn, taper the last 3" of each end to your nock. put some 1/2" high mulberry tip over lays on the tips. keep the bow 1&3/8" wide the lenght to the tip taper. tiller the bow to 16" at 45# in a circular tiller (bnedy handle). put the bow on a board and tie it down right in the middle with a kelvar fishing line. Put a 3" block under each tip and sinew the back with 2 good solid layers of sinew. after the ya get the the sinew on and it gels warp the limbs the best ya can (leaving it tied and blocked one the board) with ace bandage or supim like that to get the sinew to lay down.
in a couple of days remove the wrapping. if it is feeling dry to the touch bring it to 95 degrees over a couple of days. in about a week cross wrap sinew around just before the overlays to hold the sinew well in that area. in two week if the bow has been at 95 degrees I tiller them.
it should be a ring tail totter.
rusty
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after ya get it off the bracer board and tillered, sand the sinew moderately and use the acetone and epoxy finish on it. since it is pretty wide thru the handle try cuting your arrows 1&1/2" longer than usual. I liek that style bow a lot. with the wide handle it is a bit harder to tune but ya also get to cant your bow a lot. that leaves a wide open view of the vitals....right down the tube :) thaaaawackkkkk :)
rusty
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First bow I ever owned/hunted was a supermag 48" - I was 14 or 15 then and used it for everything (had to, it was also my ONLY bow)- first deer I shot was at about 25yds. I never realized until much later (after the evolution from recurve to compound and back again) that a longer bow is more forgiving - but its still my favorite bow to shoot.
I want to try that "2-under" tab though - I'd probably shoot it more if it didn't tear my fingers up so much....
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Ya but Jason you were likely a good shot :) . If ya ain't a good shot to start with (like me) ya need all he help ya can get with 'em shorties.
I take my hat off to ya. 25yd deer with 48" is some fine shooting :)
rusty
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I have a 50" Elburg and am considering a 48" takedown model from the new owners called Risen Son Archery.
The Elburg is pretty darn accurate for such a short bow. I can group just as well with it in my basement, (13 yards), as I can with any of my other bows. It's 58#@ 27" and is a screamer. It's the last Cherokee Mite that Harry built.
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Good point Foxbo. I have painted this thread with a broad brush. there are some fine shots that can shoot the shorties very well...but they are indeed fine shots; not being one of them it is harder for me to shoot the shorties. I gotta work at it. :)
rusty
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Hey Foxbo,
Do you have any contact info on the new company? I'm thinking hard on a real shorty and want to explore all options.
Thanks,
Brian
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Well I be danged. I shot the two under tab tonight. Hmmmmm I'm not sure why but the first thing I noticed was the 45#@28" bow I was shooting picked up an average of 9 fps. My groups were very consistant after a little training period. Infact the groups were good if not very good. it took a little jockey'n to get my eye glasses, face, and anchor point all figured out. after the break in period i started busting nocks at 12 yrds. dang i may have to mover back.
I'm sold on the tab for 'em shorties.
Thanks for sharing Terry. GOOD TIP
rusty
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btw the bow was a Super Magnum 48
rusty
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[email protected]
This is the email address to V.A. Proctor, the guy who bought out Harry Elburg. He's building all of Elburg's designs and was taught by Harry. He told me that the waiting list now was only a couple of months, but as soon as his bows catch on with archers, I'm sure that time will increase. I've seen his work and it's looks exactly like Harry's. Tell him Ed Carneal sent ya. He actually helped Harry build my 50"er.
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48"? Whew! This is gonna be a fun bow to build, I can tell already. I'll get her started this weekend. We might have to go through the instructions a little more after I get the tips tapered. I think my stave is roughed in at 1 1/2" right now. Gotta thin her slightly. Shouldn't take much. CK
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here is a cousin bow. 48" ntn in bodark. it is 52#@27" I had to flip the tips up to get it to 27" and add the 1/2" tip overlays. since your going to 25" i don't thik you will need to. ya could flip the tips up a little if you want to easy the string angle a little more. since this one is bodark it is only 1&1/4" wide. we gave ya another 1/8" width for your mulberry.
http://www.trashwoodbow.com/javie05/shortsinew.jpg
http://www.trashwoodbow.com/javie05/shortsinew2.jpg
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oh and i put on some brush bottoms. ya can leave them off. i don't think they help much on this short a bow. it never gets in the brush anyways.
rusty
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Thanks Foxbo...I'm looking hard at a Rodney Wright 46"er and want all the options I can look at. I LOVE the short bows!
Thanks again,
Brian
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Rusty, can you post a side view strung and un-strung? That looks like a gravy bow to build. Yea right! Im betting tiller is gonna be fun on that shorty.
That taper is strange to me. The last couple of inches looks akward.
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What is the status of the wraps around the handle area? Decorative or saving grace? CK
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Decorative - solid little bow. I'm at work now will post pics this PM
rusty
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I shot a 48" Grozer Old Scythian last year through. You can pull it to 30"... Looks crazy, but it shoots well. Recently I noticed that I tend to press the arrow down with my forefinger (I shoot with a glove). I'll have to try the two-under-method, thanks for your ideas and experiences here.
Of course there still is the thumbring - use it and you will forget that a word like finger pinch ever existed. But of ocurse it means learning to shoot again right from the beginning...
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Stefan - I got an orinetal bow on my list of things to I want. I'm gonna give it a try
rusty
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curtis I have had many "phases" in bow building. this little bow comes from when I tiller the outer limbs a little stiff and working the center 1/2 of the bow very hard. I'm still kinda in the phase on short sinew bows but I have the center 2/3 of the bow working now and the last 1/6 lenght of the each limb (1/6 lenght of the entire bow) a little stiffer.
on self backed short bows I have the stress equal down the lenght of the bow. on sinew bows that can take more stress there is sumping i like about a little stiffer outer limb
so ya getting to chose your profile. this one is as stiff as I would ever make the outer limbs. shoots good though and still quick after many many shots. the other end of the spectrum would be a perfect piece of a circle. that is hard to get when you are drawing a bow that is shorter than twice your draw lenght. since this one is 48" with 1&1/2" lift in the tips it makes the outer limb look stiffer than they are but these are stiffer than mid-bow to start with.
http://www.trashwoodbow.com/javie05/shortsinewbr.jpg
http://www.trashwoodbow.com/javie05/shortsinewfd.jpg
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if ya compare the overdrawn bow (by design) profile with this little bow being draw have it's lenght ya can see that it conforms more to a circle
http://www.trashwoodbow.com/javie05/shortbowfd.jpg
kinda confusing. but if ya are drawing a bow that is shorter than twice your draw it is impossible to get it into a true circular tiller. ya gotta over work it some where :)
rusty
rusty
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sorry that should say to a bow being drawn half it lenght DUH
rusty
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ya get it? :)
rusty
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I got it. Just got in from irritating the local hogs. They busted me again.
I love the braced pic. Really cool look to it. Gonna ponder what you wrote about the tiller styles awhile. Think I'll ease out to the shop after I eat and get that Mullberry bending a bit. I suppose you want pics? LOL! That would put me on the spot wouldn't it. Thanks, CK
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I just reread your post. So, what is your feelings on designing the bow stiff for the last 1/6? Its not registering in my mind why it would not be beneficial? It seems it would be much better to have more working limb. I better go re-read again. I may be overthinking this. CK
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Dang it Curtis,
Are you nuts? Why to you neeeed a bow that short? Sometimes I think you pick somethin' ya love and ask yourself "How can I make this harder for myself" Luv ya man! By the way this is your "therapist" talkin!!
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Curtis - I was hoping that Adam would come along a put right every thing I got wrong. Look think about it this way. if ya are flexing a material from a central point by pulling on the ends there is a point that you would pull far enough the the outer ends of material would be pulled straight back to you. the would mean you lost all the perchase on the material. this is likley why statics work. we are just kinda building a minium recurve static. without the stiffer outer portions your bow atg some point would look like a "U" but turned on it's side. the stiff outer tips get rid of the "U" in out bow :) .
Now I have no idea really how or why it works in bows that are shorter than twice your draw but it is sumpin like that. I didn't come by this from design knowledge but by buildling bows that didn't work.
May Adam will see the thread yet and can tell us the real scoop.
rusty
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Slow Walker - casue they are fun, cause they are handy, cause ya just put the thing in your quiver and go. Cause ya can get in a tight little hide hole and have turkey come by so close ya can see their teeth...now that is getting close :)
rusty
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What ya ain't never seen turkey's teeth....well ya better build one of 'em little short dandies too :)
rusty
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Ohhhh yes by all means pictures are manditory. I don't wanta be the only one who shows da world how messed up a bow can get.
rusty
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Dang it ....I've had a 48 incher,bendy handle, 2" reflex tips, 1/2 tillered sitting in the shop, there for 5 years waitin sinew but never could figure what I'd use it for anyway...now the juices are flowing... an there is some of Terry's Airzona sinew to be pounded....maybe a good turk bow here.
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Curtis - one of the reasons I kept the edges of the bow parallel to the last little bit of the tip was to help keep the out limb a little stiff. if ya taper the edge farther up the limb toward the grip area they would have been hard to keep stiff. you would have had to make a kinda reverse belly taper. with the parallel edges ya have to taper the belly very little and get a little stiffer outer limb.
rusty
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'at there would be a dandy turk bow '46......if it don't rain too badly...better take 'em both. your 52" glass and 48" sinew would cover the deal just fine :)
rusty
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Rusty, the 48 incher was a product of a good piece of wood gon bad. she ended up short because of a twist/runoff of the grain that I didn'r see and I just cut it short, tillered it and set it aside. It has semi stiff tips but a pretty good bend thus far. The sinew will add some reflex and I think it would be a shooter...we'll see. I like em tips to be a little straight but to give ever so much at full draw...not static, but bend at the last.
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Just woke up and was still pondering all this stuff. It make sense now. I should have this one bending to 16" by this afternoon. I got lazy last night and didn't do any bow work. I have enough sinew stripped for a couple of courses on this bow. Im probably going to strip out some more for good measure. Only prob with my stave is a little worm hole right above the handle area. runs off the side of the belly at an angle. Im hoping to get through it but Im not quite sure I will make it. No prob, I have plenty of Mullberry and sage.
Slow Walker, I like a great big challenge and a good stick. CK
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well keeps us up on your progress, Curtis. In a nut shell - On a real short bow, bendy outer limbs make the bow stack badly. On the other ahdn, if the outer limb is too stiff it will "set" the middle of the bow badly. :)
ani't nothing free :help:
rusty