Trad Gang
Topic Archives => Build Alongs => Topic started by: Shaun on March 11, 2005, 12:05:00 AM
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Hey TG folks, this build along is from the following thread started by the Ferret: "Designing the ultimate wooden bow"
http://tradgang.com//noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=018017
I take no credit for the design, only following directions. Also, since this is a consensus design, I'm asking for continued group input on the building. Here is the roughed out bow;
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/shaunw/ubow4.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/shaunw/ubow1.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/shaunw/ubow2.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/shaunw/ubow3.jpg)
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Look at those rings!!! The stave I'm working on has double that amount. Wish I could offer more help, but I'm workin on my first one.
Clint
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The criteria "YOU ARE BUILDING FOR YOURSELF, THE ONLY BOW YOU WILL HAVE TO HUNT WITH FOR THE NEXT 5 YEARS" (all shooting all weather)
Here's the design consensus from that thread:
(1) Material = osage
(2) ntn length = 64"
(3) handle design = rigid
(4) handle legth = 4"
(5) fade length = 1 1/2"
(6) limb design = full width 1/3 working limb tapered to the 1/2" tips
(7) limb width at fade 1 3/8"
(8) limb length = even
(9) belly type = slightly rounded
(10) backing = none
(11) rest = glued up leather
(12) overlays = yes, bone/antler
(13) profile = straight
(14) finish = True-oil
(15) handle convering = leather
(16) string = Flemish twist B-50 or FF (50/50)
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So, first question for consensus; If we are aiming for a "straight" profile, should I induce a couple inches of backset and undo the propeller twist at this point to end up straight after tiller and shoot in?
clintoppher, I picked a decent piece of osage - 6 rings / inch using the theory that this is the one bow for the next 5 years (even though it will not be). This stave was about half dead in the standing tree and was near the center of a large stave that yeilded two bow blanks above it - seems dry enough to start working.
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Oh yeah, I will be watching this thread continuously!!! I will have to agree with Clintopher... dang nice lookin' rings :thumbsup:
Very cool idea to build this "ultimate bow". Should really be awesome.
Kevin.
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Gotta agree. Those rings are tempting... even for a hack like me! :)
Good luck with this one. Can't wait to see how it turns out.
Frankb
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I belive refex before you start is what you will want for the flat bow finished. imo
Terry
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Shaun if you have a caul available, once you get the bow to where the limbs are bending some at floor tiller (limbs about 5/8" thick mid limb), induce about 2 1/2" of reflex at the tips graduating from the fade to the tip.
http://groups.msn.com/ferretsarcherywebpage/inducingreflex.msnw
When you pull it off the caul it will retain about 1 3/4" of that. After tillering you should be flat to 1/2" reflex.
I too will be following this one..should be cool!
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I agree with Mickey. Always make your corrections at the front end. Tiller's more true that way.
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That is a clean piece of bodark. Are you sure it's to one ring on the back? I see stuff in one pic that looks like rings, right by your thumb and two more down it's lenght.
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Nice stave Shaun :thumbsup: oughta make a great bow.
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DCM, not sure about one ring yet. I roughed this out with draw knife and will go back with bright light and slow approach to get clean back ring. Wanted to do final demention lay out and some reduction as well.
Mickey, I'll make and use a caul. Thanks for the link to your web page on adding reflex and I think I will pick up a set of those big lights showing in the background - looks like a big help in seeing ring chase clearly (may have to wear sunglasses).
Keeping the back and ends sealed with shellac to try to prevent checking as we go.
Thanks all for keeping track and helping, may have a few more helpers when the TX Sweaters come back to their puters.
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She's definitely not to one ring. Here's a site I did that I hope shows you how to chase a ring. Roughing out a selfbow (http://residents.bowhunting.net/sticknstring/roughout.html)
I see at least 3 rings on top of your desired one now.
Have fun, I know I will :)
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I was going to say I didn't think it was one ring.
This will be a cool thread
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Definitely reflex and straighten. That piece deserves it.
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very nice! Kevin you are one dang good photographer!!! looked at your album, I too used to do wildlife, and you are good! ASHSTYK
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Awww shucks ashstyk.... you are making me blush :D
Thanks!
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do all the above, cull with heat and oil. take all the prop out of it. But first find that ring! should be easy with those rings. If you want to go with simplicity, scrap the overlays. Don't need them, will just add mass to the tips. and could fail in the long run. K.I.S.Bowman! Will Be Watching.
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Friday night update; laid out and cut closer to finished dementions in preparation for chasing the top ring.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/shaunw/ubow5.jpg)
Followed suggestion for beginners on John Scrifes web site to pencil around the chosen ring, I made my line on the early growth above the finish ring.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/shaunw/ubow6.jpg)
Finished chasing the ring, went well with new lights and taking my time and cheater line around the edge to help guide me. Still some propeller and a slight dogleg near the hadle on one side.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/shaunw/ubow7.jpg)
Worked on straightening twists and turns, shellac on the back (and fades end grain) and then laid out final dementions again. Use a rasp to take it down to the demention lines and get it approx 5/8" thick. Build and then bent to a caul with 2 1/2" backset.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/shaunw/ubow8.jpg)
That's all for this evening folks, tune in tomorrow for the continuing saga of the consensus built ultimate bow...
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I can't believe you people tell him to use a heat gun on that straight wood.
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I lied, here's some more Friday night photos;
Off the caul and holding about 2 1/2" backset.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/shaunw/ubow9.jpg)
Rasped down to close to finished profile
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/shaunw/ubow10.jpg)
Lengthwise view, the early growth stuff you can see is not violated rings, just stuff in the low spots that the drawknife could not get. I'll clean it up with a scraper and sanding at finish time. Propeller and bends under controll.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/shaunw/ubow11.jpg)
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My son Mike just asked me about the bow and admired it. When I told him about putting it on TradGang as a build along, he said, "There's a lot more people reading and commenting on content on the net than there are making content". I think that's a compliment, course he is family.
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Good progress. I'd get rid of the soft wood off the back. It can hide nasties although your's looks clean as a whistle. I'd lay off the width too, till you get it floor tillered. Looks like it's gonna be a hum dinger.
Did you cut that bodock there around home?
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Shaun, how did you heat it? bit by bit then clamp it? and did you use a heat-gun like a paint stripper type? ASHSTYK very nice, looks like it will be a SMOKER!!!! :scared:
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Wow isn't that going well! You are kinda determined when you get your mind on something aren't ya? LOL
Outstanding build along so far Shaun.
BTW is that a 70's BMW 750 front wheel in that one pic?
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Looking very good Shaun......There's a lot more work that goes into doing a buildalong than there is in just building a bow.... Thanks for taking the time to do it..... Great pics.... :thumbsup: Terry
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Mickey, that particular Beemer is not ours (yes an R75/5), my son is a wrench at the BMW shop and he has that one as a side repair project for some fellow. I switched from Beemers to Hogs about 5 years ago and now Mike is a mechanic at the local shop and I plan to switch back. Mike has 3 - an '85 R65 (mint!) and a 2000 Dekar monster spaceship with bags and GPS and stuff, and his $200 "rat bike" a stripped down and sticker covered water cooled K bike of undetermined vintage.
Anyway, back to bows; floor tillered and ready for long string. Gonna cut some nocks and start to pull on it. Was thinking about putting on tip overlays now instead of at the end. Don't like to have one set of grooves and then fit the overlays on them. What do you guys think of that idea? Read that one can use gel superglue for overlays, any advise on what to use for glue? Or should I hold off on the tip overlays till the end and finish work?
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DCM, yes, bodark from about 15 miles south of my house, cut with Brad Merkel a couple weeks ago but fairly dry in the tree. I can see through the early wood residue and no blemishes under it. There is a cluster of 3 very small pin knots in one mid limb, they look solid and I forsee no problem with them. And there is some funky twisted grain the last couple inches on one tip - I think that will be OK too as I plan to keep the last 6" or so of the tips static. No other imperfections noted so far. Looks like the limbs are going to be 3 rings, might be a name in there somewhere?
Ashstyk, yes, used a paint stripper type heat gun careful slow application until wood is too hot to hold for more than a moment and its willing to bend, then clamps. Worked my way down the limbs on the caul per Mickey's web page instructions.
Terry, thanks. Its fun posting and getting feedback and a great learning tool for me. I learn a lot by watching other folks do build alongs too. I have a friend who assures me "You can't die from embarrassment". So what's the worst that can happen with the whole net watching?
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Shaun, I used gel superglue for some overlays, roughed both surfaces a bit, glued and clamped it, worked super( pun intended). still holding well. ASHSTYK :cool:
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Lookin good Shaun, I use TiteBond II and III you just have to give it time to dry.
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Shaun I usually wait on the overlays because my tillering string with cups is a tight enough fit without the extra 1/8" material on there and I use the temporary string grooves as a guide for the grooves in my overlays but I don't think it really matters from a scientific standpoint which way you do it.
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I often glue on overlays early on in the bow making process. I leave them clunky and over-sized through most of the tillering process. I usually add an extra groove on one end to use as a slot for a simple string bow stringer. Saves wear and tear on my arms when trying to string a bow that is still 20 or more lbs over poundage. When I get to the point I can easily string the bow I finish reducing the overlays and file off the stringing groove. While I am on the long string I only file a slot in the back of the overlay not on the sides of the limb.
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Went ahead and added antler overlays
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/shaunw/ubow12.jpg)
Filed them down but left them oversize for now
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/shaunw/ubow13.jpg)
Long string on and ready for tillering - no pressure on string
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/shaunw/ubow14.jpg)
Pulling on rope to get some bend.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/shaunw/ubow15.jpg)
All aboard the tiller train! All input welcome.
I see bend mostly towards the fades, though the outer limb areas are straightening enough to loose the backset.
I don't believe there was a draw weight question on the ultimate wood bow tread. Any votes for other than the low to mid 50's?
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You need more bending mid limb on. Jawge
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Shaun a comment I have is before you go any further it would be a good idea to round those back edges some, just knock off the sharp corners. Sharp edges are a prime place for a splinter to lift while rounded edges more or less prevent that.
Did you floor tiller this at all? You should have had the limbs bending into a nice stiff smoooth arc at floor tiller, before going to the tree.
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Oh and I purposely left weight off of the questionaire regarding the ultimate bow. Weight is such a personal choice where design cna be agreeable by a large percentage of bowyers. but I know ther were guys that answered that shot between 45# and 65# so a median would most likely be 55#, but you should build it to suit you!
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I did do some floor tiller before heat / caul bending. Got some bend in an arc. Did a little more after caul, but maybe should have done more.
Good tip to round off the edges, will do.
Have removed a substantial amount of wood to get it bending this far. Should I take off more or go to a low brace at this point?
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/shaunw/ubow16.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/shaunw/ubow17.jpg)
I like the sound of 55# draw weight. Shootable but heavy enough for anything, plus it suites me.
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Also, have not designated a top and bottom limb yet. One limb wants to bend in a nice arc, the other has personal issues and wants more attention. When and how to figure the top limb?
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Making progress. I enjoy watching build a longs. My tillering needs a lot of practice, and this just shows me where im going wrong. Keep up the good work Shaun. :thumbsup:
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Awesome job so far.
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Shaun the nice thing about building bows with even length limbs is you don't have to designate a n upper and lower limb but let them reveal themselves. in the latter stages of tillering one will naturally be a little stronger than the other and that will end up being your bottom limb. If they come out even as far as strength goes a couple of scrapes will make one waker and it will be your top limb.
I don't go to a short string until my limb tips are moving about 10". You are getting close.
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Looking pretty good.... Looks like the right limb might be showing a bit weaker than the left get the left caught up and get both limbs moving in the middle 1/3 and outer 1/3...... Terry
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Did some tillering, trying to get the outer limbs to bend. At 24" and ready to quit for the day.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/shaunw/ubow18.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/shaunw/ubow19.jpg)
Do I need to get more bend right out of the fades? Should I let this ting rest and dry for a while? I have a feeling, based on nothing better than hunch and intuition, that the moisture content is still a little high. Bow is close to flat when unstrung with slight reflex at the tips. Pulling 45 @ 24".
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No you are good out of the fades..look at the pic and see how the outer 1/3 is flat? You need to work there next.
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Good job on evening out the limbs... They look good.... I agree with Mickey......Terry
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Left limb from dip to mid is flat. Both limbs from midlimb out are flat. Leave that midlimb on the left alone.
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One other quick Tip Shaun...Don't pull the bow past the point where you can see a defect.... You are pulling that bow quite a ways..... What John, Mickey and I are seeing could have been seen with the bow being at a much shorter pull and would have stressed the working portions of the bow less than what you did...When I learned to do that my bows started retaining a lot more of their original profile when they were finished.... Terry
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This Grasshopper is learnin and chewin, chewin and learnin. I was thinking the left looked a little stiff just after the fade too. And thats a great tip Terry to pass along. I'll try to remember that one tonight. Shaun, kudos for the buildalong (did I just say Kudos). Very timely for me and lookin good. One question to anyone....how do you go about getting prop twist out? Seems impossible so I've got to know.
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Randy... There's two schools of thought on prop twist....The first being if it's not too extreme just leave it be..... That's what I prefer to do when I can....or you can heat bend it out.... Mickey is one of the best at that.... Maybe he can elaborate on his method... Terry
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I'm in agreement with AZ. You can see in the braced pic that the bow looks uneven. There's no need to pull it anymore to correct that. The ability to do that well will come. I think some of these guys have built hundreds of bows and to see one out of kilter pulled beyond that hurts their brains. I think this is a tribute to the power of hedge.
The first bow I ever made was hedge and it was real ugly. But I had no reference back then. I started at square one. I've still got the bow and it is ugly as sin. But, I've never broken a hedge bow.
I've restarted and made a handfull. I've been breakin board bows like mad. The complication of putting a hickory back on and the added fickleness of the woods I've chosen have exploded in a vigorous manner. Oh, the power of hedge.
Got hedge?
Yellow power!
Oh and randy is correct in my eyes. Stiff out of the one fade. Things never look right to me when the fades don't match.
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Thanks all for the input. Great tip to not pull past the point where a correction can be noted.
On my last project I learned never to pull past projected finished draw weight.
The first bow I tried was under the direction of Brad Merkel and he would give a couple tugs on the tiller rope and then mark the belly with a pencil and say "take wood off where its marked". I could see nothing different about the areas he marked, but it was plain as day to him. I am starting to learn to see what needs to be worked, but it feels like a slow learning process.
Prop twist can be worked with heat and a tip from the Ferret - use a crecent wrench to apply corrective twist. Any heat and bending is potentially damaging and care should be used.
Time to work on thinning those tips and see where we get to today. Maybe to shooting a few arrows by this afternoon.
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More tillering, some sanding and shaped the hadle. Starting to look much better.
Braced
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/shaunw/ubow20.jpg)
Pulled 22"
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/shaunw/ubow21.jpg)
Pulled 24"
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/shaunw/ubow22.jpg)
Looks not right to me on the right side at 24" ... running a 6" straight edge along the belly shows slightly more bend mid limb on the right than other areas. Should I correct this by removing some wood both sides of this point or leave it and call this the top limb?
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this is just what I'm seeing offhand.
you should get a little more bend off the fades on both limbs
the left tip looks a little stiff
nice stuff, it's looking good
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Well it is hard to visualize. The rope isn't pulling in the middle of the string and that makes it look cockeyed. The right limb has much more bend midlimb than the left, possibly because the left is stronger, making the left limb bend farther.
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Both fades need a few scrapes. Left from fade to just short of mid limb needs a little lovin' too :)
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Cool Shaun. I've got a stave that I'll be starting this week and plan on building it using dimensions from that thread also. I've been watching this one from the get go, great job.
David
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Time to saddle up and take a few shots. Using the weaker (right in the pics) limb as top and shooting about 50 arrows for break in and "tiller by feel". Had son Mike take an action photo as well. Tiller board does not exactly duplicate bow hand and string finger pressure on bow. Pic is drawn at full (just over 27") draw with 29 1/4" BOP arrow.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/shaunw/ubow23.jpg)
Bow has about 1" of follow when first unstrung. Shoots better than I hoped. Very stable, medium speed, easy to point.
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nice job!! :thumbsup:
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Should the bottom limb pull back as far as the top? There is a little distortion from slight cant to the right, but not that much. How about the rest of the bend / tiller?
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I think the bottom limb could bend a little bit more. The tiller on the top limb looks good. The bottom limb could use a bit more bend at the fade out to about 3 inches
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Looks like a heck of a nice bow to me. Tiller when shooting looks great. How does she shoot? This has been a nice build-a-long Shaun. Thanks it's been fun to watch. You work like a beaver though LOL
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Looks like a fine bow Shaun. Congrats on a very good build along. John in N.S.
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Lookin' Great man. Loved this build along, thanks for taking us :thumbsup:
Kevin.
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Thanks guys. I did a very small amount more tiller and then shot it another 50 or so. Soots good, moderate speed and very easy to hold on target - as apposed to sensitive. Light hand shock and dead quiet even with no string fuzzys.
Added leather rest and first coat of True-oil. Handle leather and final trim tomorrow. Will post finished pictures and final observations then.
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Nice!
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Finished up the TradGang Ultimate bow project and build-a-long. Here are some pics of completed bow.
Back profile -65 1/2" overall, 64" NTN, rigid 4" hadle w/ 1 1/2" fades, from fades to 10" out (approx 1/3 working limb) = 1 3/8" wide, then concave taper to 1/2" tips.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/shaunw/ubow28.jpg)
Side profile - slight follow when first unstrung (as in this picture) then flat with very slight tip backset when relaxed.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/shaunw/ubow27.jpg)
Handle with deerskin leather wrap and built-up hard leather rest.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/shaunw/ubow25.jpg)
Tips with antler overlays and B-50 16 strand Flemish string.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/shaunw/ubow26.jpg)
Braced finished bow. A fine shooter with no noise and minimum hand shock. Finished draw weight of 50@28.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/shaunw/ubow24.jpg)
A fun project and I learned a lot from the input of many more experienced bowyers, thanks TGang.
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Very Nice Shaun. I learned alot as I followed along. Thx.
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Very Nice Shaun. Looks like a great shooter
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When should I put my order in?
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Way to go!!
I've been watching and figured the others had you covered on the tillering thing I'm just an amaturer. Turned out nice.
I have to say its nice to be able to post pics on here and get advice and a little coaching on how your doing isn't it.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
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and that's exactly how it's done.
Stable in the hand, comfortable to shoot, quick to point on game, quiet as a church mouse. What more can you ask of a wooden bow? Bet this one will still be taking game 5 years from now!
Nice job Shaun. :thumbsup:
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Good job Shaun.
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The more I shoot it the better I like it. Here's a 20 yd group from an off eye dominant average shooter.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v613/shaunw/ubow29.jpg)
This bow shoots a 500 grain arrow with ease and feels like it would like even heavier. May have to make some up and try it.
Mickey's right, this one ought to last, its not delicate or light, but then again bet you could use it for a walking staff, whack a charging pig on the snout with it and still hit a rabbit at 15 yards. It is very quiet, if you make a clean release - as I do occasionally - it makes a little hum of a twang, but that's it.
Its an all American, apple pie, meat bow.
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Where do I mail a check? and how much?
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"whack a charging pig on the snout with it"
LOL funny you should say that Shaun..on my first pig hunt in Fla we followed a dog that was following a hog into the worst thicket you can imagine. Literally had to crawl into this place. Anyhow the guide was right behind me when we spot this pig. Just about then the pig decides he wants no part of this deal and goes running out of there. Unfortunately the only way out was the way we just came in and the pig is headed right for me. I literally wacked the pig on the snout with my bow and he turned and went around us. The guide slapped me on the back and thought I was the coolest thing in the world for "taking the charge"..when in reality it was purely a move in self defense cause I had no where to go. I about had a heart attack. The really neat part is when we walked out of there you couldn't even tell I needed to clean a load out of my britches ;)
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Update on the consensus bow. For those of you who said the tip overlays were a weak point, you were right. I had to replace one that popped off. Used long set epoxy this time (super glue gell the first time). Now that it has had a chance to dry a little more, it has a finished pull wt of 53 @ 28 and 1.5" of string follow. The good news; its very easy to shoot, stable and medium speed. Solid feeling and sweet. She's got a name now ... "MAIDRITE"
Thanks again for all the input for the plan and during the build along.