Trad Gang
Main Boards => Photography/Video Q&A Board => Topic started by: Don Batten on February 20, 2006, 06:59:00 PM
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I'd like to get one to film some hunts. I like the idea of recording straight to a disk. Any comments? Don
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Don, the disk cams record in MPEG2 codec which is highly compressed and does not work well if you intend to do any editing of the footage. If all you want to do is plug your cam into a TV and watch they are fine, however, you can get more camera for the buck by sticking with miniDVD tape. Less compression and easily edited afterwards without loss of resolution.
The small 3 chip Panasonics do a very good job and they have several models under $1000. They use small 1/6" chips so low light performance is not the best but video/audio quality is better than a single chip. If extreme low light is important to you you might be be better off with a single large chip cam like Canon's Optura50, also under $1000.
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Hi Tom!!
Glad you posted that. I was getting ready to get a mini-DVD type myself.
Any recommendations for a digi-camcorder under $500?
Jerry
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Hello there Weez!
The Pana GS180 should be about $500. 3 chip and very good audio/video. Downside is that these cams are extremely small and light and hard (at least for me) to hold steady, and the 1/6" chips give relatively poor low light performance.
The Canon Optura50 is around $450 now. Single 1/3.4" chip. Good video/audio and very good low light.
You don't have many useful manual controls on any of the consumer cams.
I have next to no experience with the newer JVC's, and I gave up on Sony years ago, so can't tell you much about either. You are pretty much limited to these four manufacturers and quality wise there's probably not a nickels worth of difference between them. How they handle color and resolution, and how well the controls feel to you, (all subjective really) will probably determine what you want. Best to try each and see what looks and feels right for you.
Does this mean we gonna be getting some video for TradGang of Gods country soon?
:)
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Perhaps. ;)
I don't have a clue as to how you size it for the web, or what software you use to do that.
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We are getting ready to film spring bear season...I got a Canon GL2 (used)...Maybe a little overkill but we wanted good video...
Taking movies is easy...Its the editing thats a killer....We are learning though..(slowly)...LOL
I was playing with windows movie maker tonite and had to take a break and visit tradgang and rest my head...Thats when I saw that Tom wrote,
"Editing is easy"...
Yeah right!!!
LOL
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I would love a higher end Canon, but the budget...
I have a Mac, which probably narrows down what I can use to edit it.
Tom, watcha think about this one? JVC Compact Series Camcorder (GR-D370US)
http://www.circuitcity.com/rpsm/oid/144487/originURLEncoded/http%253A%252F%252Fwww.circuitcity.com%252Fccd%252Fcategory.do%253FcatOid%253D-13063%2526N%253D20013061%252B20013063%252 6c%253D1/rpem/ccd/productDetailSpecification.do#tabs (http://www.circuitcity.com/rpsm/oid/144487/originURLEncoded/http%253A%252F%252Fwww.circuitcity.com%252Fccd%252Fcategory.do%253FcatOid%253D-13063%2526N%253D20013061%252B20013063%2526c%253D1/rpem/ccd/productDetailSpecification.do#tabs)
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Maybe I worded that wrong. :) Editing can be a nightmare, for me anyway. I was referring to the fact that MPEG2 codec, as used on DVD disks, has so much compression that you lose a lot of quality in the editing process and end up with poor video. DVD should be used as an end product, not a videography format. If you want to edit video for output to tape or DVD you are much better off videoing in miniDV or even SVHS.
Movie Maker is a bare bones editing program with few options. It works great for making wmv files for internet video but that's about it. There are several consumer level editing programs under $100 that offer probably more features than you will ever need and most all of them offer try before you buy editions you can download online.
Looks like Weez is copping out on getting some Oregon footage to TradGang. Can we count on you for that? :)
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Plenty of Optura 50's on ebay right now. That's a good one, eh?
Looks like Santiam has the outfit for the Oregon footage. I looked up the GL2 on ebay. Yikes!!! :scared:
Hey Bill. Know how I was whining about selling that Mentor to Jerry P. at the shoot? I think he took pity on me and sold it back to me. :D
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I have no experience with the newer JVC consumer cams so can't tell you much about this one. I suspect it has a small CCD and no manual features. I do like the quality of JVC products and use mostly JVC for my decks.
If I was wanting a single chip consumer cam I would look first at Canon. The Optura50 is a good one although buying used on eBay might be risky.
Not much available for Mac's for editing. Unless your Mac is an old one you should have iMovie bundled in the operating system which is all you really need for simple edits. Final Cut Pro is a high end editing suite and pretty pricey. Final Cut may have consumer grade editing software available like most of the other PC programs. Infinately more programs available for PC's.
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Yikes is right...I had to send it in to get some work done on it so it would be ready to go for April 1st bear opener...
I got the camera fixed,but now can't afford gas to go hunting...
Thats YIKES!!!
Sposed to be better than new now though...One can only hope cause I ain't sending it back...LOL..
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Let me guess. Was you having head alignment and/or tape transport problems? The GL series cams are notorious for this, as well as having a lot of plastic in the case.
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Thats a pretty good guess.... :(
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The GL is a good cam and a lot of outdoor footage is taken with them and the XL series, but I have yet to talk with anyone who has owned one for any length of time who has not experienced this problem. Getting cams out of warrenty repaired regardless of manufacturer is an expensive process. You also need to be careful not to let condensation form in these cams.
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You're right, I can get the Optura 50 for under $450 online. Gotta look at the differences between the 50 and newer Opturas.
I have iMovie and iDVD on my Mac.
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This is the time of year when manufacturers release their new models so there is little info or hands on experience with the new ones.
One thing I have noticed over the past several years, and this applies to all 4 of the major manufacturers, is that every year they seem to be going backwards. Each new model year with the consumer cams features and functions are lost. Smaller chips, less manual controls, cheaper lenses, smaller and lighter. Apparently this is what the market wants but in my opinion the older models overall are better than the newer ones. Talking about the consumer cams here and not the proline models. The only advantage here is that prices come down also.
Let's review.
You are getting a new cam.
You have editing software on your computer.
You are a highly experinced photographer.
Conclusion: TradGang will soon be receiving beautiful video footage from Oregon...yes????
:bigsmyl:
Seriously Weez, as someone who understands lighting, framing, and the importance of a tripod for good images, I don't think you will be happy with a cam that does not offer you manual features you really do need with digital video to get good images. You have been playing with digital stills for some time now so already should understand the limitations of digital compared with film. Although good editing software can tweak digital images in post it's always better and gives better results to do everything you possibly can in camera rather than rely on post editing.
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What camera were you using for the DVD's you sent me a few months ago (Spud & Ugly, and the club hunt)?
I don't see much difference between the Optura 50 & 60 in a product comaprison. Except price.
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I didn't take that video. Spud took it with a cheap Hi8 Sony. Some of the higher resolution stuff on the ATHA video was taken with a small 3 chip Pana.
I don't think the Optura60 is still being made, not sure. The 50 is the last of that body style I think. Canon and Sony are both going to that newer body style which I personally hate like the Canon 400 and 500 series. I think Warren Womack uses an Optura60 so you might want to drop him a line with questions about it. He's had it in the shop for repairs but he sends me pretty darn good video taken with it.
They are cheapening up all the consumer cams in my opinion. Things to look for is chip size and number, full external manual controls such as manual white balance and zoom ring (not settings you have to go through a menu to adjust) and optical stabilization rather than electronic. The onboard mics on even $5000 cams are not good so external mic option is very important.
If you stay with a very reputable outfit such as B&H you can save some money on a used cam with a warrenty from them and get more cam for the same money you would pay for a lesser model new.
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With a $50 rebate, B&H has the Optura 50 for $395...
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That's probably the last drop in price you're likely to see with that cam. I suspect when they're gone there won't be anymore available. The new models are already out.
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One more question before I order it.
Can I use a patch cord to transfer my 8mm analog video from the camcorder to the Canon digital?
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Weez, if the 50 has analog to digital passthrough you can. You will have to use your A/V outpout connection rather than firewire to move analog. If the 50 has S-Video connection use that instead of the component fitting for better quality.
I'm pretty sure the 50 has this capability but check the specs on the cam to be sure.
If the 50 by chance does not have analog to digital passthrough you can still convert the analog to digital by capturing the footage to your computer (which digitizes the signal) and then returning the video back to your Canon 50. You will need a capture card on your Mac to do this and iMovie software should be able to handle it.
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Done deal. Should be here by the end of next week!
Thanks, Tom, for your advice.
Weez
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Hey Jerry,
What kind of editing program are you going to use?? I hope you are smarter at it that we are... :scared:
Tom,
My brother has hi speed and he downloaded Power Directer 5 to play with...Sposed to be a good one for beginners...We shall see...I thought I could hear screams coming from the direction of his house earlier though... :eek:
He better hurry and learn..Next weekend spring bear season opens and its,
LIGHTS,
ACTION,
CAMERA...
:bigsmyl:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v218/Santiam/P1010478.jpg)
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Originally posted by Santiam:
Hey Jerry,
What kind of editing program are you going to use?? I hope you are smarter at it that we are... :knothead:
I have no idea. Guess I'll fall off that bridge when I get there. :banghead:
Actually, my Mac has iMovie & iDVD. My computer whiz son says that's all I need. Hope he's right.
Now I gotta sell a bow and a couple of packs.
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Bill, I have never looked at that program so have no idea what it can and cannot do. There are several consumer level editing programs available that do quite a bit. Unless you want to get into good audio mixing or special effects you really don't need the high end software.
If PD5 doesn't work well for you I would suggest you download a try before you buy program from one of the better outfits such as Vegas, Adobe, Avid, Pinnicle, ULead, etc. They all run under $100. With these the advantage is that if you ever want to move up to a higher end program they offer good ones that you will already have learned the basics on.
I've tried all the ones mentioned and I think for a consumer program Sonic/Roxio 8 is hands down better as far as what it can do, the codecs it uses, and user friendliness. The downside is they do not make a pro version you can upgrade to down the road.
I settled on high end Vegas programs a couple years ago. Does it all and the best bundled in audio controls.
Weez, iMovie should do everything you need. With a Mac you are pretty limited. If it doesn't work for you try Final Cut.
Let's see. Two guys living in God's country with video equipment. How soon can we expect to start seeing some footage from out there? :)
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I have a pc laptop, but it's not the most pwerful thing in the world. It handles slide shows with music very well (Slides to Exe program). Do I need a high-powered 'puter to use the Sonic/Roxio 8?
The answer to your question is, "If it ever stops rainin'!"
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Video editing requires a tremendous amount of computer resources. Working with video will really bog down a system. Some programs, such as Pinnicle, are notorius for locking up even when you have enough computer.
A good rule to use is to look at the minimum requirements each program recommends and then at least double it. Roxio runs great with 512 MB RAM. I run 4 GIG of Ram with dual 3.2 processors but I do a lot of effects and titling and use several separate programs in conjunction with Vegas.
If your laptop has 512 RAM and 40 GIG of free space on your harddrive you can work with video with Roxio. It's good to use two harddrives, one for your OS and your editing program and one to store and work with the video. Keep your programs and your video on separate drives if at all possible. If not, and your harddrive is large enough, partition it off and keep your video separate from your programs this way. Your system will run much smoother. External firewire harddrives are relatively cheap and a 60 GIG external should be plenty. Your laptop will also need a firewire card, preferably with at least 2 ports.
Or, you can pay an editor $50 to $100 an hour to do the editing for you. :)
They make very nice rain covers for camcorders. Hurry up quick and call B&H again. :bigsmyl:
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I bought my camera used and Adobe Premier Pro came with it...
But,
thats like learning to drive at Daytona....Even Windows Movie Maker has us scratching our heads...LOL
With the PowerDirecter program we managed to edit clips today using the timeline and get them on the story board...Patted ourselves on the back after that.. :smileystooges:
What kind of Oregon video would be interesting??...Maybe some coast range bear hunting? :archer:
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I've noticed that a couple of folks have been wondering about editing video footage and burning it to a DVD with a Mac. Somebody also mentioned that your choices for Mac video editing programs are limited. Well, that's true, but what is available (iMovie and iDVD) really do an excellent job and come loaded on your Mac computer when you buy it. And, it's quite easy to get "up to speed" with them. (Apple also produces some "high-end" video editing and DVD burning software, but the learning curve for those is fairly steep.)
As your first step in learning to use these programs I would HIGHLY RECOMMEND buying the book, "iMovie and iDVD, the Missing Manual" by David Pogue. (Buy the version of the book that covers the version of iMovie and iDVD that you have. iMovie and iDVD are up to version 6 now, but the new version of the manual hasn't been published yet.) Read the book while you're playing with the programs. I also recommend looking at the Forums for these programs that Apple hosts on their website. You can see what sort of questions people have about using the programs and ask questions yourself when you run into any problems. You'll be amazed how quickly you can produce and excellent "movie" of your trip.
iMovie is well integrated with other Mac applications so it's easy to add music or other sound effects (which you can download via the web) using iTunes or add still photos using iPhoto. If you want effects and transitions that iMovie doesn't provide there are a lot of "third party" plug-ins available. If you want to do some fancier stuff with your stills, you can use shareware programs such as "Still Life" or "Photo to Movie".
I think that you'll be impressed with the results of your efforts. And, it's always fun to give copies of your movies to your friends who were on the trip with you.
Rod
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Thanks, Rod!!
Jerry
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Originally posted by Santiam:
What kind of Oregon video would be interesting??...Maybe some coast range bear hunting? :archer:
That would be great. I've never hunted those "jungles" on that side of the state.
I love those beautiful mountains in N.E. Oregon. Why don't you zip over there tomorrow and get some good video. It's Sunday, what else have you got to do? I'll even trade you some video of cornfields and fence rows for some good Blue Mountain footage. :)
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Originally posted by Tom Mussatto:
I love those beautiful mountains in N.E. Oregon. Why don't you zip over there tomorrow and get some good video. It's Sunday, what else have you got to do? I'll even trade you some video of cornfields and fence rows for some good Blue Mountain footage. :)
You want that with or without the stinkin' ATV's?
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Don't tell me that Weez. Seriously, don't tell me that.
Have they invaded even the designated wilderness areas?
ATV's are as bad as cornfields and fence rows, but at least the later aren't mobile and don't make noise.