Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: dan ferguson on January 11, 2008, 09:28:00 AM
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I,m new to the carbon game. got a dozen for Christmas and another dozen I,m going to start on, bought them full length, now the first thing I do to woodies is to spin them and check the for straightness so I decided to check these carbons, Is .010 runnout RIGHT??? Heck the woods I get from Paul are twice that straight. Now I,m no pro shooter so it won,t probably bother me, but I did find it intresting, another note not all of them were .010 some of them are very straight, so I guess you need to use the cull system on carbons as well
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Not sure what carbons you purchased or where from...but I've seen 1 woodie out of 100 spin as straight as any of the carbons I use.
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There is just as much variation in quality of carbons as other arrow materials---why would you expect anything else ? You pretty much get what you pay for, just as with wood or aluminum. Best carbons now are at .0008 (yeah, you read that right,four decimals) can't get much straighter than that.
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A wood arrow will outshoot it's overall straightness if the point and nock taper are both aligned so it's not AS significant. Many of us lerned that decades ago when comparing woods to Aluminum. A slightly bent AL will shoot around corners, not necessarily true with woodies. Bottom line is ALWAYS, how do they shoot and can you outshoot their straightness?
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Which carbon arrows did you purchase?
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iv never had that with carbons or at least not the ones i bye, what carbon arrows did you get?
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I know what you mean, I got second dozen in two years, thought I would give them a try again, for the price you would think they would at least be as stright as xx75 aluminum but no.
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I bought 12 top of the line carbons (won't say which ones), my spine tester said the spine numbers were all over the place?! Anyway I wrestled with them for a few weeks and went back to my DT woodies. It felt just like coming home.
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the carbons I got are advertised .003 just like the xx75's i use but on the spiner they are much more visable wobble. They may be within the .003 I have no way to check but they don't compair to the xx75
Still going to try them and see what happens
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Go shoot your wood and carbons 10 times and measure them again. :D Lay them both out in the yard during a shoer and check them again.Heck just put them in a quiver about twice and check them again.Just like a crisp new bill, it ain't wrinkled untill you use it. ;)
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I like my alm. arrows because if they are a little out I can straighten them to what I want. You can make them straighter than they come from the factory. I check all my new arrows before I even fletch them. Some are good and some are not.
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I am curious as to what method you use to actually quantify runout at an estimated 28" length from any given starting point?
Are you also saying .010 from outer wall edge, or .010" from center?
Don't get me wrong, I am not saying your results are inaccurate; I just wish to know if the actual shafts are truly more than ten times the average industry tolerance of around .006", since this is one of the industry's big selling points--straightness.
Thanks Much,
Marc
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A good question, for you carbon shooters, is there much difference in shooting.
.003 vs. .006 straightness tolerance???
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I or anyone I know can not shoot the difference in the worst or most straight carbons made.It would take a world class archery shooting long distances to see the difference between .003 and .006.And then I don't think it is possible shooting fingers. :) jmo
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Yes you guys are right... as a tolerance delta of .003 to .006 is negligible to us...
However, .010 is HUGE! It probably even precludes the ability to tune broadheads for wobble on a jig, let alone flight. I suspect we could even see that as stickbow guys without sights, just shooting field points.
Take Care,
Marc
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I personally will never be a good enough shooter to appreciate the difference between .003 and .006 straitness. I also am not a good enough shot to appreciate the difference in a 2 grain or less variance between shafts. I practice out to 25 yards and set up my stands and trim my trees for 15 yard (or less) shots. At these distances, there's just no way to appreciate this subtle of a variation between shafts. BUT here's the thing. When a product (any product) is marketed to deliver a certain level of quality, when I lay down my hard earned cash I EXPECT to receive what is promised. If it says guaranteed strait to .003 and the weight is guaranteed to not vary by more that 2 grains between shafts- is it unreasonable to expect the manufacturer to deliver what is promised?
Regarding the subject matter of this thread, I had a very in depth conversation with a gentleman named Cody who is a rep for one of the larger carbon arrow manufacturers, after discoverring that a third of my shafts had a VERY pronounced wobble and varied in weight by up to 18 grains (within the same dozen). This became apparent because, before I bare shaft tune my arrows, regardless of what material they happen to be, I ALWAYS spin test my shafts to check for WOBBLE and then weigh them to check for extreme weight variations. Because I have no way to varify straitness to .003 tolerance, I simply spin them on a broadhead aligner to visually check for "straitness". It would seem counterproductive to attempt to bare shaft "tune" a less that strait shaft and this is why I spin them first.
What I was told is that the wobble and weight variations that I observed were more than likely the result of inconsistencies in the thickness of that walls of the shaft stemming from the manufacting process associated with making carbon shafts.
The purpose of this post is not to bash carbon arrows. I hunted with them last season with good success and found this particular brand to be about as durable a my XX78 2216s and 2219s. But the fact of the matter is that these shafts were not nearly as consistent with regard to weight and straitness (or wobble) as my aluminums.
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If carbons are that bad, why are are most shoots set up so that they are not allowed in the wood arrow classes?
Steve
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I didnt read all the posts but Ive never seen carbons spin worse then wood even the cheap ones, same goes for spine (yes the cheap ones will vary a bit but come on what do you want for under 50 bucks a dozen). When you spin them make sure your not on the writing on the shaft. Before I became a cop people would come into the shop I worked at and complain about that only once in a blue moon (and these are top not target archers that shoot with lenses and such)and that was the problem 99% of the time. Just a thought
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Are you guys for real? Could you really see any difference in arrow flight with an arrow .010 off straight?
Sure I see the issue of getting what was advertised, but in a practical sense is it important?
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I use carbons,seem fine to me.
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Jindy,
Take two identical shafts and put them on a spin tester, with broadheads.
You can see the "wobble" of the needle points of broadhead tips at these dimensions.
Remember--these are "magnified" errors along with distance of the shaft, with the magnification never being symmetrical, because the error is not always in the exact same spot on the shaft (hence the tolerance value)...
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And no, this thread isn't about "bad carbons" in general, but I'd say the original poster has some valid complaints if his shafts are guaranteed to be within a certain spec'.
For example, the tolerances he's reporting would be "acceptable" for bottom-barrel or "seconds" from major manufacturers, where new carbon shafts guaranteeing straightness of .003" are now going for $80 to $140 a dozen.
For about a $100 a dozen, or even $80 for that matter, I'd be peeved if I measured mine and they were that far off, whether I can feel it, see it, outshoot it, or not...
Now if the shafts are marked at +/- .010, then you got what you paid for...and they'd probably be used (by me anyway) for target practice or rabbits/squirrels where they're more apt to be lost...
See Ya,
Marc
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AGAIN, as a practical matter it really doesn't matter, especially to an average Joe, close range shooter such as myself. I took the time to speak directly with a manufacturing rep and he gave me a probable explanation for the wobble and weight variance that I did in fact experience. I do NOT wish to turn this into a carbon bashing thread. If you are pleased with your carbons that's all that should matter to you.
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Boy this can be a "sticky wicket". I'm still new to the trad world, but I'm not new to archery. I used to shoot alot of tournament archery. I've seen guys do every kind of testing possible. I personally think that shaft runout is one of the most over rated factors to good arrow flight. I remember when the wrapped carbon arrows first came out. I had been shooting X7 2512 "Line Cutters" is what we called 'em. Most guys shot some type of large diameter alum. in those days. Well my buddy who owns a bow shop talked me into trying these "new" carbons that just came out. We had been hearing about them for months. So I fixed up a dozen of them to try.My accuracy immediately improved. I used to practices every day after work. I had a whole regimen (blind bale, distance judging, 3D and long distance shooting). On my long distance days I shot a target bag with an index card in the middle from 85 yards. With these arrows I could (on days when it wasn't windy) consistently put 4 out of 5 arrows in the card. So I started taking them to tournaments. The first one was an indoor 3d shoot we used to have on thursday nights. I took first place and won $100, enough to pay for my arrows. One of the guys before the shoot started asked me about the arrows . He said he had bought some and checked the runout and they were so bad he took them back for a refund. I told him that I hadn't checked mine but they shot great. Well the next day I had to find out so I had a friend check them. The runout
was up to .014. But I kept shooting them, kept winning shoots with them. When hunting season rolled around I refletched them, put broadheads on 'em and killed deer with em'. I still have 8 out of the original 12. I always had numbers on my arrows and if I had one that didn't group with the rest I just rotated the nock a little bit at a time until they came in to the group. I never shot a carbon arrow that couldn't be tuned this way.
I'm not knocking anybody that's into the whole straightness, runout, arrow spinning deal, because
I believe that what ever you have confidence in is what you should do. Its just that my experience has shown me that I'm better off practicing my shooting than spinning arrows. Oh yeah, those "new" carbon arrows were Gold Tip 5575. I hear they got much straighter but I don't know, I quit checking them a long time ago.
David
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Wood arras don't know they're crooked... :rolleyes: :campfire:
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I was only shooting wood UNTIL i shoot carbons.And i shoot wood for 15 years.Im not going back.Carbons are superior.
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Originally posted by insttech1:
Jindy,
Take two identical shafts and put them on a spin tester, with broadheads.
You can see the "wobble" of the needle points of broadhead tips at these dimensions.
Remember--these are "magnified" errors along with distance of the shaft, with the magnification never being symmetrical, because the error is not always in the exact same spot on the shaft (hence the tolerance value)...
How does this really matter?
When an arrow goes through paradox it is bent a whole lot more than any .010 runnout, and I am sure the head has ample opportunity to plane then, would the shaft adding .010 extra (what angle could it make to the head, I don't know) make any difference to the arrows flight?
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I don't know which carbons you got, but there have been some rumors about inconsistent quality control with the ones that have the initials GT.
I primarily use alums with my recurves but also shoot CX carbons and have been very satisfied with them. They are at least as accurate as alums but are far more durable.
I just like the alums because they are easier to work on and easier to find when they go under grass...
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A shaft that has .010 run out (TIR) is still straight within .005. Run out will measure above and below center.. Typically if it .010 TIR, no part of it is over .005 further or closer from center than the norm. I've shot Aluminums for 30 years, I have bent and straightened more than a few.. If the center of the shaft spins true to the ends, (In other words an "S" bend)It will shoot with the rest of them, at least within my abilities.
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Most of my friends and acquaintances who hunt shoot compound bows. To my knowledge, none have ever taken the time to learn how to tune an arrow. Most have never even learned (or care to learn) how to fletch an arrow. They simply buy them prefletched and have them cut to size and the point insert installed. I suppose this why when you visit a large archery shop like Cabelas, Bass Pro Shop, etc. - there is always an entire wall of prefletched arrows available and often, just a token supply of shafting material and arrow building supplies.
When my compound shooting friends want their BOW tuned or the string replaced, or the cam adjusted, or a cable tightened, or the cushion-plunger upgraded, they just take it to a local archery pro shop, lay down their money, and pick their bow up a few days later. Most know nothing about brace height, kinetic energy, momentum or FOC. Most have never even heard of Dr. Ed and could care less about his landmark tests on penetration. For that matter, most have never even heard of Saxton, Pope, Ishi, St. Charles, Asbell, et al. Most find it AMUSING that I insist on shooting "such heavy arrows" and "waste my time" buying broadheads that I have to sharpen myself. EVERY ONE of my friends who shoots a compound can out shoot me using their un-tuned, prefletched, arrows. So I can say with absolute certainty that they aren't too concerned about arrow spinners, arrow wobble and other such "trivial" matters. If their arrow hits 4 inches off at forty yards, this is simply compensated for with a quick adjustment to the forty yard pin while still out on the 3-D course.
Arrow wobble matters to ME because I find the arrow tuning process challenging and time consuming enough using arrows that spin true to begin with. Arrow wobble also matters to me because I insist that my broadheads are mounted PERFECTLY true. I check for broadhead wobble two ways. I vertically spin my broadhead tipped arrows on a hard flat surface looking for wobble. I also check for wobble by placing my arrow on a horizontal spin tester and paying close attention to the tip of the broadhead as I rotate the arrow. I always begin my arrow tuning/building process by spin checking my arrows. I’ll take an arrow that spins true and use that arrow to experiment with while bare shaft tuning. The other arrows that spin true are used as practice/hunting arrows. Those that do not spin true are used for stumping and small game hunting.
This is WHY arrow wobble matters to me. The fact that compound bow shooters can out shoot me with un-tuned, prefletched, store bought arrows does not lessen my expectation that my high end carbon arrow shafts should spin true right out of the box (as my XX78 always do) and also meet or exceed the other specifications that they are marketed to have.
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IMHO, arrow straightness is highly over rated. Unless an arrow is bent out at the tip when it contancts the riser at full draw, it doesn't mean a whole lot. Yeah, broadheads need to spin true but past that, I can't see getting all whacked out about 10-15 thousandths worth of runout.
Guys on this board kill deer with obsidian heads and reed shaft arrows. Ya think those shafts are straighter and more consistant than carbons??
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Just a thought, some of the aluminum inserts have a slightly sloppy fit to them, enough so that you would not effectively be able to get a true measurement of "spin" to them, the insert should be a press fit to ensure proper alignment.
With that said, I'm pretty sure I know which arrows you are shooting and they are not that great, and the consistency of those particular arrows can be an issue, I've seen it before. However their upper end arrows are the ticket. I agree that you should get what is advertised and expect what is advertised. As for the wood versus carbon issue, shoot what you want, what you believe in and what shoots right for you,....it's an argument that can't be won.
enjoy,
Trapper
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Otto,
Agreed. Some have killed animals with stone points and reed shafts. I suppose a few have even killed deer with spears, Bowie knives and dead-falls.
I appreciate your opinion.
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I know a guy that killed a deer with a rock.Now that's traditional. :goldtooth: