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Topic Archives => Memorable Hunts => Topic started by: Morning Star on December 09, 2008, 06:33:00 PM
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I had a somewhat interesting kill a couple weeks ago. I shot this doe in standing corn as she came through an opening about 8 yards away. She was somewhat quartering towards, but stretched out to look back behind her which exposed a large portion of her chest. I was confident with the shot so I let'r rip. As the arrow hit I heard a LOUD crack and she ran off with the arrow burried to the fletching tight behind her front leg. I'll give ya the rest of the story as we go on.
Given the photo's, what organs do you think were damaged with the arrow placement?
(http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e244/1-Morningstar/DSC00820-1.jpg)
(http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e244/1-Morningstar/DSC00822-1.jpg)
(http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e244/1-Morningstar/DSC00823-1.jpg)
(http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e244/1-Morningstar/DSC00824-1.jpg)
(http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e244/1-Morningstar/DSC00825-1.jpg)
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Both lungs pretty good, maybe some heart, no liver.
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Both lungs, stomach............not heart
Maybe liver
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You can't see the exact exit in that last photo. The arrow exited between the 2nd and 3rd rib from the rear of the rib cage.
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one lung, liver, stomach
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I'd say Norb's right on...I'll even say you barely caught the back of the nearside lung,through the liver and into the paunch and out....
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Both lungs. Too high for the heart judging by the pics, maybe the top or the aorta though. In and out in front of the diaphram, so not the stomach, doubtful on the liver. Looks like a good shot and a short blood trail to me.
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one lung, liver. Congrats, by the way! Looks some some good eatin' :thumbsup:
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One lung and liver. I hit a big doe this year almost identical to your's....same shot distance as well.
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Maybe part of a lung if you were lucky and liver....O.L.
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near lung and liver
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Liver , near lung if you were lucky , diaghram and possibly stomach.
Jack
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Possibly one lung, maybe no lung. Stomach and/or spleen, and liver. Just guessing.
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a touch of nearside lung, liver, stomach, definitely no heart.
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it must have worked...congrats on the doe
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May have got back of one lung first. . ., but I would bet on just liver and gut. Being as high in the rib cage- you may have hit the main artery down the spine first.
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all that was necessary :bigsmyl:
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It was fatal, whatever you hit!
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Yep, near lung, liver, and paunch.
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I say liver and lungs. no gut.
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Whatever it was, congratulations !
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lung, liver, and paunch. congrats
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liver and stomach, not a great shot but one we all have made..
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If that arrow is as close to the spine as it looks in the last picture, you took out the main artery that runs under the spine and not much else., maybe a piece of the nearside lung.
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The crack was the breaking of the 8th rib from the front. The arrow took out the near side lung, clipped the back end of the far side lung and cut a little bit of the liver. No gut.
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I'm thinkin' nearside lung and liver....Jerry's also got a point with the last pic (main artery under spine; the aorta) but that may be an optical illusion.....but that being said, I find something else more interesting.....your story....based upon what you perceived happened, you said the arrow entered "tight behind the shoulder" yet it appears that penetration may have been a few inches back....despite our best efforts shooting and our best efforts trying to remember what we saw....what we think we saw and what is reality are not always the same......thus, the common suggestion that a true broadside shot is the best...not quartering toward.
Glad to see you got the deer.
homebru
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Liver and guts here. I am interested to hear the recovery part of the lesson :saywhat:
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C'mon man. The suspense is killing me.
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I'm having a hard time figuring out how some of you are making that arrow hit the gut. It went into and out of the ribcage. The gut is behind the ribcage...behind the diaphram. The arrow entered and exited ahead of the diaphram.
I made almost an identical shot this year, though somewhat lower. I took out that third rib on exit, so it might have been an inch forward on exit. I can tell you for absolute certain the paunch is well back of that.
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One lung and liver.
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Back of one lung and liver. Get those tenderloins out of there now! :) Thanks for sharing. The pics and story. Not the tenderloins.
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Originally posted by 30coupe:
I'm having a hard time figuring out how some of you are making that arrow hit the gut. It went into and out of the ribcage. The gut is behind the ribcage...behind the diaphram. The arrow entered and exited ahead of the diaphram.
I made almost an identical shot this year, though somewhat lower. I took out that third rib on exit, so it might have been an inch forward on exit. I can tell you for absolute certain the paunch is well back of that.
The diaphragm is a fixed structure only around the periphery in relation to the ribs. It's position varies with respiration. Also, the ribs do not stay on the same plane, they are curved. When a physician is doing a physical exam on a patient trying to assess the size of the liver or to see if the patient has inflammation of the gallbladder, they frequently try to pry their fingers under the ribs on the right, because the majority of the liver is superior(above) to the ribs anteriorly(to the front).
(http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd102/pdk25/x-ray203ra.jpg)
That dark bubble on the right, under the lungs, is gas trapped in the stomach. You can see the outline of the ribs extending quite a bit below that. If I was as bit more computer savvy, I could draw lines, but basically the liver extends from just below the lung on the left to just slightly below the the lowest extent of the ribs on the left. (right and left are as you are looking at the picture, not anatomically)
This picture was taken with a full inspiration.
PS If you see a deer with this profile, don't shoot. It might taste a little funny. ;)
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liver& guts
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I don't know what PDK25 said, but that is EXACTLY what I was thinking :eek:
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pdk,
I agree with you. The liver is a possibility. I did clip it with my shot...forgot to put that in my post, but I don't think he hit the paunch. The liver would be in between the paunch and the lungs/diaphram. The doe I shot made it about 40-50 yards and piled up. There was no damage to the paunch/guts what-so-ever. She's mighty tasty too!
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Answer!.........Answer!...........Answer! :bigsmyl: :jumper:
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Looks like he hit the freezer and dinner table. :bigsmyl: :bigsmyl:
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Now if you had an xray of a deer, that would be helpful! :D
So if the deer had gas and was standing on its hind legs...
I'd still bet the paunch was intact.
Okay, let's have the answer.
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Dang things won't stand still for that. And if you ask em to take a deep breath they just snort and stomp.
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I bet the "turn your head and cough" thing gets quite a reaction too! :scared:
This shot went in and came out in nearly the same spots. I was at 18 yards from a tree stand, so the angle was down a bit more. She was across a draw though, so not as low as some tree stand shots. The batteries crapped out on my camera that day, so all I got was a couple cell phone shots. I do know I took out both lungs and clipped the front of the liver. She was quartering to me, but looked back over her shoulder at another doe so the shot was good. Blowing up the rib on the far side kept the arrow from passing through. It stopped with about 8" of shaft and fletching sticking out. The exit hole made by the WW was massive. I wish I had thought to take a picture of it. Ray Charles could have followed the blood trail.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v612/30coupe/2008%20Doe/11-09-08_0830.jpg)
That's why I am pretty confident he didn't hit the paunch or the gut.
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I can't see anything but double lung
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Liver, maybe the tail end of the onside lung.
Some good lookin tenderloins there! :thumbsup:
Ron
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From what I see the arrow is in front of the diaphram. Therefore no liver , no guts, looks to me like a double lung. Later Bob
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Well I think everyone is hung up on the quartered too angle. Take the arrow out and put it in the other direction. Quartered away. . .perfect.
Now it's a little back (worst thing you can hear at night in a hunting camp) but it's angled forward fairly steeply. If I'd made that shot, I would have said, liver and lung, wait 1 hour minimum. Probably went down much faster but that would have been my call in the field.
Looking at the dressed animal, It would be double lung. Arrow is ahead of the diaphram and even if it's cupped in for a breath should not have hit liver.
Big difference between "in the field" and "on the hook".
Now lets have the answer!!
Mike
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Good enough shot for me congrats.That sure looks like my canoe though.Kip
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I'm in the camp the shot is to far forward for paunch and liver. Both lungs and perhaps the aorta. Either way take a second look at the exit side wound channel, Woodsmans do make a big hole...
JOhn
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I'll go with a liver shot........ didn't see any blood on her snoot from a lung shot. :coffee: come on now......what's the skinny?
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So.... I gave this old girl about an hour, thinking I had at the least a good lung and liver hit.
Do to the way the arrow looked as she ran away, I have to say I was really leaning toward a double lung shot.
The shot actually ended up taking out the rear lobe of the near lung, then through the diaphram and into a thick part of the off side of the liver and out. No paunch was hit as far as I could tell.
Oh, and the loud crack was that near rib I hit. It was completely shattered. Looked like someone stuck a firecracker in there. :) Something I've personally never seen the woodsman do. All my other kills with the woodsman, it has pushed to the side and went inbetween the ribs, maybe taking a small chunck of bone once in a while, but never committing to the entire rib.
So, given a solid portion of the lung and liver were damaged and close to an hour wait, what kind of ground do ya think this deer would have covered? Keep in mind the arrow was still in her. The woodsman was polished to hair pop'n sharp.
I've got to go shovel some snow, I'll be back later tonight with the recovery, the most interesting part.
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One hour may not have been enough. Liver hits sometimes expire quickly and sometimes they bed down and they can last a long time but seem to go down quickly once you push them up out of the wound bed. Nice looking doe. Good shooting.
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I will say 120 yards
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327 Yards!
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Originally posted by Sharpster:
Liver, maybe the tail end of the onside lung.
Some good lookin tenderloins there! :thumbsup:
Ron
Okay, I passed question one. Now for the distance she could have gone and how long...
Liver shots will often put a deer down fairly quickly (inside of 100 yrds) and they usually will expire in less than an hour BUT.... because of the hard impact of the bone shattering shot, I suspect she may have made an adrenaline pumped run and could have covered quite a bit of ground.
I still suspect that she was dead within the hour but how far she could have made it in that time...
Ron
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(http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f363/xrakkasan/anatomyanimation.gif)
might be helpful to review our anatomy from time to time... watch the whole sequence :D
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Good stuff Jeremy. Note guys it clearly shows just getting into the ribs does not mean double lung or even 1 lung. The diaphram is angled from top to bottom forward. I learned this the hard way on an elk. Perfectly broadside...If you drew a line half way from the shoulder to the back of the ribs, then half way up...Nothing but liver, basically dead center of the rib cage and you'll miss lungs. Try that on the anamation, get the ribs showing, put your curser half way up and half way from shoulder to the back of ribs, that's nothing but liver.
Mike perfect quartering away? Only if it came out in front of the opposite shoulder! :)
Distance?....If it got into where the lobes come together, 60-100 yards, if it didn't, could be hundreds if pushed too soon....O.L.
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That is the same shot i made on my buck this year, 175 yards and after 2 hours he still got up and made it another 60 yards.
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Depends on a lot of things, that bone impact probably made it run hard right away. Most deer if hit like this will run hard for 60-100 yards, get into cover, then stop and watch its back trail. You will find a pool of blood where it did this. If nobody chases it while it is watching, it may bed down nearby. If nobody comes looking for at minimum an hour or better yet 2-3 then it will be in its bed when you find it. If it isn't dead yet when you come looking, it will slip away and you may not find it without help from a dog. snow always helps of course.
If you don't see or hear it fall, let it have time.
ChuckC
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It haled A$$ because of the 3blades and the impact it felt, adrenalin dump into it's system, it ran until it did a flip from passing out because of the massive blood loss.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it,lol
nice doe doe, yum yum
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Boy, those liver shots are quite variable. There are alot of big blood vessels in the liver, but if you miss them (even though you've gone through a big chunk of liver) they can make it a long way. Same goes for only taking out one lobe of lung. I'd say this could take anywhere from 1 to 8 hours. Really narrowed down my choice, huh.
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I bet with the bone hit, it went at least 200 yards,
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Sorry, you asked for distance. Assuming not pushed, I'm still gonna guess at least 200 yards.
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500 yds.
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O.L so my punctuation was not that good.
Perfect, quartered away. Not perfect quartered away.
LOL
So my field judge was right and my anatomy sucks. Oh well.
If you let it go and hour I'd say 120 yds.
Mike
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everybody guessin high so il hgo low. this deer made it approximatly 73 yards
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I have shot them that way and watched them fall within 40 yards. The lung/liver is a deadly combo, but I always say that I would believe just about anything when it comes to the toughness of a whitetail.
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176.5 yards, depending on which way she fell.
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This is a shot Ive never taken but have wondered about.From the looks of things it worked well.Its a shot that I think I would take in a second if there was no chance that Id be presented with a better angle.Ill gues she didnt go far,,,, 70yards.
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Okay, my shot blew up the off-side rib just as you described. About an inch of it was just shattered! My doe was down in about 40-50 yards in a straight line. She made a couple turns, so maybe 60 tops. I heard her crash and waited 30 minutes. I was shootin a Legacy 1916. She broke off about 7" of the fletch end after running 30-35 yards. The broadhead end dropped out a jump or so later.
My shot got both lungs though, so your doe may have gone farther. I'd still bet it was under 100 yards.
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Looking at the exit wound in the one pic.....the off colored flesh tells me that you might have nicked the stomach.
It always amazes me how little some hunters actually know about anatomy and shot placement...some of those assessments of the shot weren't even close! Com'on guys....some of you have been hunting long enough to know....this shouldn't have been a "guess your best"....
Hopefully a thread like this will help folks out, and really start studying animal anatomy......
I'd say it went at least 100-500yds(depending on cover),and it lived for a good 15 minutes at least after laying down......and when you walked up on it you found the area around where she was laying pretty thrashed up by her.....
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150 -300 yards due to the bone being smacked pretty hard.
Jack
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id say right around 350 yards
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id say right around 350 yards. But as guru said that depends on the cover and terrain
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This is been a shot i`ve not had real good luck on recovery with, due to were i hunt its vary thick an wet HARD TRACKING CONDITIONS--when there is a chance to catch gut on a exit WOUND the blood trail sufferer's an so does the recovery rate. I'm about 50-50 on this one on recovery. I`m with Guru lots of variable's in this shot placement could get lucky
hit the good spot in the liver wick is so painfully they have to lay down right away if not spooked or hit the bad spot in liver an go 500 an flop around- --usually by a creek or some water
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After giving her about an hour I packed up my stuff and walked over to the spot where she was at the shot. I had seen blood shoot from the impact wound as she took her first hard leap away. And yes, the impact on that rib made her run hard and low. She was moving as fast as a deer could move. She ran a few yards to the edge of the corn field and headed down a fence line. Bright red blood was absolutely everywhere, on the ground, the standing corn to her right and the fence to her left. I followed the blood standing upright with no need to bend over. It was now dark and I could see the shiny blood up to 10 yards ahead of me with my headlamp. I'll have to say, with the amount of blood coming out from both sides of her, I was now sure I had 2 lungs hit. ;)
So, I continue to follow the trail, the blood remains constant, but after 100 or so yards I'm now just finding it on the ground in 50 cent size splashes and speckles. I'm to the point I'm starting to look ahead expecting her to be laying dead. On I go with the trail and before I know it I'm following her down into THE timber drainage from hell. Rose bushes and deadfalls that are nearly impenetrable. I continue on winding through all this stuff following blood. I remember thinking continually, OK she's gonna be just a few yards ahead. Before I knew it I was close to a 1/4 mi. away from the shot. No indication she bedded down or even stopped for more than a brief period. I'm now pretty sure I didn't get both lungs. :)
Well, with the amount of blood on the ground I just could not imagine the deer had went this far and it drove me to continue. Though the shot must not have been both lungs I felt she was gonna run out of juice pretty quick.
I followed blood out of the drainage up a bluff like hill, between rock outcrops with billy goat steepness. She made it to the top, went under a fence into a pasture. Still finding fifty cent size blood spashes I followed her up into the pasture where I finally lost blood. At this point I was close to half a mile from the shot in a wide open grazed pasture! :readit:
Frustrated and not having any real good lay of the land to lead me in a probable direction, I backed out with a very cold night in the forcast.
I grabbed my best friend in the morning and headed back to the last blood. She had went probably 60 yards without bleeding and we picked up good blood along the opposite pasture fenceline. Another couple hundred yards and my friend hollered at me.
Said and done this old doe gave me my monies worth. Looking at an aireal map of the location, she went close to 3/4 of a mile before running out of juice. :notworthy:
I'm sure glad I had good blood on the ground, not sure I would have ever found her without it.
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WOW
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Thats why I pass on quartering to shots
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Glad you found her! GOOD JOB ON STICKING WITH IT! after field dressing her--- what was the damage? liver, nick 1 lung little bit of gut???
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Excellent thread Morning Star...excellent thread. :thumbsup:
Ron
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Good job. I should probably share a similar story on another thread sometime. Anything possibly involving liver and further back needs 8 hours if possible. Even then you may have a job ahead of you. I can't help but wonder if you pushed her too soon (of course I realize you thought you had lungs).
I too agree and have witnessed others with many a troubled or lost track job with quartering on deer. Too risky for me.
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Been following this thread great thread, should be used as a educational tool somewhere.
Jack
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I agree that quartering towards can be risky shots and I usually stay away from them. This deer became an exception when she turned (flexed) her body to look back behind her and exposed a large portion of her chest.
I'll take a solid liver and lung hit anyday. Any thoughts on why a deer hit like this went so far? Clotting at the organs? She sure put some blood on the ground though.
I'm just gonna go with.....I shot the toughest Doe in Iowa this year. :)
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I stand corrected, I knew the diaphragm was contained within the ribs :banghead: .
I've seen liver shot deer go a mile and had one several years ago that went only forty yards. A direct hit to the liver will bleed profusely but is not among the most essential organs necessary for life support. Not to say a deer will live without the liver but that the cardiovascular system is necessary for immediate life support. Take out those and a deer is dead in seconds. Take out the liver and the system will continue to function until the blood is drained. I always try to give a liver shot deer at least 2-3 hours before tracking down. The problem is we don't always know when the liver is hit, as evidenced by your experience. I believe that big three-blade combined with a complete pass through was essential to the recovery of your deer.
John
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Once again, they are tough. Been hunting all my life and have seen crazy things. There are just so many intangibles involved with each deer. I know they are all deer but some have a crazy will to live and run full speed after being hit. Others have know idea what happened and stop to look back and die. I have seen them double lunged and run well over 200 yards and have seen several shot just as morning star's doe and die within 40 yards. I cannot say how many times after trailing a deer and finding it my hunting partner and I will look at each other and say..."can you believe he went this far" And then other times its "I cannot believe he only went 40 yards". They are amazing animals and tend to humble me each year.
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just for fun sometime take a 1 quart jar and fill it with milk and red food coloring. then take a paint brush and dip in the jar and start flicking "blood" as you walk along thru the woods and see how far you get! i think we have 4 quarts in our body and a deer is about the same size. a quart will go a long ways and you'd still have 3 left!
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Great thread. Congratulations on finding your deer. There is a definite lesson to be had here.
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Outstanding Thread! :notworthy: Congrats on the find! Way to stick with her. :clapper:
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For once, I am glad I was wrong. Glad it worked out good for you!
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That was a pretty cool read.
Thanks
Steve
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Excellent thread...Those darned livers, just 1" one way or another can make the difference in a 40 yard recovery or a long track/lost critter. I've had successful quartering toward shots but have had some screwups trying it too. Looking back at quartering shots over the years I've reduced the angle of the shots I'll take both front and rear quartering. Especially on big critters like elk...Good job on the recovery! :) ....O.L.
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i have always wondered something...quartering away shots are seen as good with the off shoulder being the exit goal. with quartering away shots, more often than not the arrow goes into the deer and has enough energy left to at least punch through the off shoulder or even completely pass through. now, on a slight quartering to shot, if one aims at the crease in front of the shoulder (the exit goal for a quartering away shot), shouldn't that be as good a shot as a quartering away shot? it seems to me the arrow would follow the same path but in an opposite direction than a quartering away. i have only taken 1 deer with my longbow and it was broadside and i have always heard we should avoid anything quartering to, but why would a slight quartering to shot be different than a quartering away? just curious...this has been a neat thread, and i am not trying to stir up anything, but i never thought about deer anatomy and shot angles as much as this after viewing these photos and diagrams. would the tougher bonier entrance rob too much energy for penetration on a slight quartering to shot to be as effective as a quartering away that enters into only soft tissue or more pliable rear ribs?
stan
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Quartering away...the BH has done it's job if it encounters heavy bone...
Quartering towards...BH is just starting out when it hits the heavy bone....and if you hit behind the bone,good chance you'll miss all the good stuff....
Not worth it...
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Guru, which bone are you impacting ?
ChuckC
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The white tail anatomy that Jeremy posted is pretty good.
Given that rib bones should not be an issue, the only big bones of concern are the leg bones.
The big leg bones are on the front edge of the front leg. ( see Jeremys post).
I believe the optimum shot on game is dead centre of the front shoulder up one third of the chest height. ( check this on the whitetail anatomy Jeremy posted)
A lot of people aim too far back.