Trad Gang
Main Boards => Hunting Legislation & Policies => Topic started by: 9 Mile Archer on February 21, 2007, 11:19:00 PM
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I held off posting this because I wasn’t sure if it was trad archery enough but after thinking about it, it affects one of my favorite hunting areas and the deer populations so here it is. I was in North West MT on my family’s ranch over last weekend. We were planning to leave Monday noon after I completed a conference call for work. I was on the call looking out the window onto the lake and I see a coyote, no too big for that I think, oh s%$# that’s a wolf, and a big wolf. He cuts across the lake about 250yds from the cabin and then disappears into the woods. About 5 minutes later 12 whitetail deer come out of the woods further to the west of where he went in. Man were they ever nervous :scared: . They didn’t want to leave the lake and go into the trees anywhere, finally they breakup into 3 groups and get off the lake. I was sure we were gonna see a takedown right there on the lake but it didn’t happen. I didn’t get a photo of the wolf but here are some of the tracks, he was huge. The tracks are on the ice so a little bigger due to slippage, but we measured one on hard ground and it was 4 5/8ths inches long. He/She was one big dog!!!
:readit:
(http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h116/sedonadog/Myhandnexttowolftrack.jpg)
(http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h116/sedonadog/size11bootnexttowolftrack.jpg)
(http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h116/sedonadog/Jennywithwolftracks.jpg)
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Yep...There isn't any doubt when ya see one. I've often have people tell me they THINK they saw a Wolf.
Every case I've seen one in, there wasn't any thinking, I KNEW.
Think back on the elk tracks you've seen, and compare Wolf track to Elk Track.
Thanks for the post
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I don't mind competing with them, I enjoy seeing them here, hopefully ya'll will be able to hunt them soon as we can.
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Hey Andrew, here's one I took while "chasing" a pack of seven not far from the house last week. This is the track from the big black male, the female and five of last years pups were with him too. :mad: Spent four hours covering three miles trying to get close for a good pic but the wind finally got me and they cleared out of the country.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/gotahunt/R0010488.jpg)
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There have been some reported sightings on the Oregon Idaho border here in Oregon. Not many. I heard once that when wolves move into an area the 'yote's either vacate or get eaten, and there absence can be an indication of wolves moving into an area. Is this true?
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Vance: Yeah no doubt when you see them. I heard that the WY wanted to treat them like coyotes and open up a vermin policy for them like coyotes so you can shoot them at will. Is that true? If so, your game managers in WY need to get realistic about shooting them and maybe the feds will let ID and MT get a season open on them. (Vance you know I’m just working ya over :smileystooges: )
Chris: They were never cleared out of Alaska and you still have a population of the original animals with the supporting migratory food source animal “caribou” that evolved taking the brunt of their existence. I just don’t think it is the same down here. I might feel better about it if we had 2 million buffalo feeding them. It sure brings conflicting complicated feelings in me to see them :confused: , I guess I don’t know enough cause I haven’t been living with them for very long, they were just coming back when I moved down to California from Montana 8 years ago.
Doug: ok we will have to talk wolves again having them chasing the already hammered deer pops in Libby got me feeling grumpier about them :campfire: .
Derek: we don’t have too many coyotes on the property but the manager has only told me of seeing one this year, which may be why. However at the end of the lake I did see this yote track that crossed a while before the wolf, looking at the edges of the track it crossed the night before. You can see it to the top and right of the wolf tracks in this photo.
(http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h116/sedonadog/02192007078.jpg)
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Well from a purely Traditional Archery outlook and from the HOLD UP state :wavey:
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Doug, at least the wolves in your area carry cash. ;)
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(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d171/IronBull_/Gray_Wolf_06_2e.jpg)
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d171/IronBull_/Gray_Wolf_06_1.jpg)
Taken less than 50 yrds. from our house in 06
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Vance;
Thats just a german shepard :smileystooges:
Down right scary, my neighbor in the Nine Mile had his dog half eating by the wolfs last March. :mad:
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Hey, Doug, I've got a bunch of those $1 bills - the miniature ones, right, about an inch long??? :biglaugh:
Okay, so that wasn't very funny was it...
But at least now I'll remember to keep any money that I find instead of trying to find the rightful owner -- just might be that a critter dropped it. Finders keepers!!!
wow... striking out here... oh well, moving right along...
I'm glad to see some folks have their wits about them and carry cameras afield. Me, I almost never remember to. But it would certainly settle some arguments in a hurry. Like only proof of actual sightings, and tracks, and scat, deer rubs, etc. can do. A picture may be worth a thousand words for some things, but as I see it it's also worth it to have zero MORE words after people see it/them.
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I've heard it said that wolves don't attack people but I believe it was the Discovery channel had a show telling how 2 wolves stalked and killed a man up in canada. Watch your back out there.
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Wolves are really awesome creatures. When I was in Alaska we would see them quite often. Mostly in Denali Nat. Park and mostly at a considerable distance. One time, on a moose hunt, I was sitting on the side of a ridge about 4 feet off of a game trail, glassing for moose. Just as I put the glasses down, here comes a wolf up the game trail I'm sitting beside. He stopped about 10yds away and just looked at me. Seemed like a good while we just sat there looking at each other. I guess he finally figured I was no threat and just turned and walked away. One of the most awesome experiances I've ever had. Never even thought about the camera or the bow at the time.
LD
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Amazing pictures! thank you for sharing
:campfire:
Alex
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How much would a wolf like that weigh for both mike and doug's photos?
I have a bullmastiff and her paws arent that big.
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We have a local wolf that has become a star/problem. Here's a link of Romeo as they have named him carrying off a pug.
Romeo (http://www.adn.com/news/alaska/wildlife/story/8626719p-8519068c.html)
Juliet was run over by a taxi a few years ago and is now a full mount in the Mendenhall Glacier Visitor Center.
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9 mile----thats no German Shepherd.
I just read that Idaho is gonna make Wolves into a season. I personally cannot wait! These critters are a nuisance. The Fish & Game didn't plant the native wolves at all--they planted a larger Canadian species so they are double tough on the local game. I guess they are finding out why our forefathers killed them off to begin with.
Jeff
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I have seen ONE wolf in the wild. Even at 300 yards, when I made eye contact with it, through the binoculars, it sent chills up my spine. It still sends chills up my spine just writing that! They are killing machines that take whatever they want, whenever they want. I did a few bear hunts up in Saskatchewan and the outfitter had a shed rack collection. There were dozens of darn near B&C buck skulls, all wolf kills and all dated Sept-Dec. Those bucks were not sick or weak.
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They found out the last time the more you kill the more pups they have. They went from 2 or three to having as many as 11 at a time.
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Jeffery, I was teasing him. See the eye wink icon.
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Heh-----yeah, I got it. Me slow sumtyms. Heh.
This is an important thread for us western hunters, for sure.
Jeff
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wow, you guys can keep them we have enough trouble with the coyotes.
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They would worry me if my kids lived around an area with them around. I think? I would like to hunt a wild area that has them. I know the Western guys drama, it is bad, but I hope that when they are allowed a season things will get better for you the guys living/hunting out there. I like to trap and that would be pretty cool to get one.
That pic with the pug???? I would lay him low, and then stand court. I just can't see letting an animal be a danger to you your kids or your animals???????? that is ignorant.
Jason
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Some of my most exciting hunting experiences have involved close encounters with predators. I wouldn't trade those experiences for the world, and I'd gladly trade some of my own kills for the opportunitity to share the woods with wolves, cougars, griz, etc... It saddens me to know that so many who have the opportunity take it for granted, or worse yet, resent the animals for doing what they are meant to do. I'm glad to see there are some who do appreciate them. Those who complain should be thankful they live in a place that can still support wolves. They could be losing hunting opportunities to pavement and stripmalls like so many of the rest of us.
Steve
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Steve....You make some very valid statement in regards to being glad that we live in an area that supports these animals. Please do not take what I am about to ask you in any way as argumentative or in any way offensive. You are a wildlife biologist so I hope you can shed some light on a question that has haunted me an others that live with Wolves.
How is it that these Wolves can be considered "Endangered" #1 when they were Re-introduced from a species that were not native to this area and #2..The species that was introduced is thriving in Canada and some of our states.
I ask this question in total sincerity and NOT trying to raise anyone's hackles. I REALLY would like to know the answer and can't get it from Feds. here.
How long does it take for our wildlife to adjust to their presence after not having them around for 75+ years?
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IMO - in the lower 48 wolf regulation should be like coyotes... Protected in the National park system (Pseudo balanced environment), open season outside... Speaking of the west there are few areas that can sustain the current hunting pressure long if the wolf gets a foot hold.
Do we want to keep our status as the dominant predator or are we willing to relinquish it to the wolf.
IMO - if a person wants to bring wolves in just for the sake of hunting them in the future. HEAD WAY NORTH where you can actually take one, Where human populations are low and game populations can still be managed at huntable populations despite the wolves, grizz and other predators.
Having said all that I would love to head north and hunt with the wolves, and Grizz.
Thanks for posting the Photo and Experience, I have to admit it would be way cool to experience.
Isn't it amazing how the Wolf brings forward so much emotion.
It brings out the good and the bad in all of us. The funny thing is depending on where you are standing the good for one may be the bad for another.
Best in hunting to you all.
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I hope no one mis-understands me.
I love the wildelife Wolves included, it's just that my livestock and my business don't like being eaten.
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Three different days this past season I had wolves start howling while I was working bulls deep in drainages in Idaho, I can't say whether or not there's any reason to be afraid, but alone with just a stickbow it tends to get your attention. I didn't sight them and honestly I wasn't hoping to but they were close and I found a fresh elk kill.
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Vance,
I doubt I can answer your question to your satisfaction. As you know th eFWS administers the Endangered Species Act. Wolves, and other ES, are divided into Distinct Population Segments under ther ESA. Each population segment requires its own receovery plan. Its been a while since I've worked on wolf recovery issues, but as I recall, Mexican wolves, northern rockies, great lakes and the Northeast are disctinct population segments for wolves in the lower 48. Therefore, each segment requires its own recovery plan. The intent of the ESA is not merely to ensure lots of wolves exist somewhere, (as is the case in AK and Canada), but to ensure that their former geographic range is represented as well. As you know, wolves were extirpated from 98 percent of their native range in the lower 48. Its my opinion (and you know what they say..) that the "non-native" wolves being introduced into the northern Rockies goes, is largely anti-wolf rhetoric. There may have been slight genetic differences between the original Yellowstone/Northern rockies wolves and those introduced from neighboring Canada, but functionally they are the same critter. Wolves are generalist predators and will adapt to whatever prey is available. Considering that no Yellowstone wolves remained, The nearest neighbors across the border seem a logical choice to me. At one time, taxonomists recognized 24 subspecies of wolves in North America. Now they recognize only five (Mexican, Artic, Northern Rockies, Great Plains and Eastern Timber). Great plains were thought to be extinct, but are now believed to be the same wolves found in MN and WI.
http://www.wolf.org/wolves/learn/intermed/inter_sci/wolf_subspecies.asp
The ESA provides two levels of protection, endangered and threatened. I beleive the northern rockies wolves have been downlisted to threatened haven't they? The next step is delisting, but before that can occur, the states hosting wolves have to demonstrate that they have management plans in place to ensure the longevity of those populations. I think ID and MT have plans that meet FWS approval, but WY does (or at least did) not. For some strange reason, moving straight from threatened to vermin status doesn't instill confidence that populations will be maintained...
I'm droning on incessantly as biologists are prone to do, but its a complex and politically charged issue and fun to discuss. To recap and answer your questions...#1 the introduced wolves were native, or at least native enough :thumbsup: , and #2
as stewards we have an obligation to restore species to once occupied habitats wherever possible. And consider this: If deer were extirpated from 98% of their range in the lower 48, how many of us on this list would be content knowing that there were still a bunch left in Saskatchewan. Darn few I bet. Why should we feel differently about wolves?
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Thanks Steve...That was far more than I have ever gotten from those working with them here. And I do understand what you are saying. Can't say that I whole heartily agree.
They truly are very awesome to watch and see and I can't say that I have any real fear for myself.
I have seen what they are capable of doing and at the present have no real fear of anything.
Living here I seem to find myself with a foot in both camps where Wolves are concerned.
Thank you Steve
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sss
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Well, I envy that you have first hand experience. I hate being a remote observer. Its easy to support wolf recovery when you don't have to live with the consequences. I do know wolves cause problems and I beleive in controlling those problems. I just don't think the fact that they cause problems gives us the right to deny them a place in our world.
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Boy, guess I dropped a match on a dry prairie! For me it's this way: Wolves are spectacular animals that are neat to see once in a while. I don't want them exterminated but I do want them controlled. It is generally bad when the people’s hands are tied by the government that is there to protect them. When wolves are in your paddock eating your livestock or mauling your family pet in your front yard, you should be able to deal with them without fear of falling into a legal battle that will bankrupt you. As for protecting wild places, I am behind it 100%, this is not about protecting wild places this is about setting boundaries for uncontrolled apex predators. I chose to live out here and I plan to accept events that come with living in close proximity to wildlife, but I also plan to protect my family and property when necessary. Reintroduction of the wolves is an EXPERIMENT by the Federal biologists. It needs to be seen as an experiment and treated as a test not as the mandated law of god. For better or worse the Rocky Mountains ecosystem is radically and forever different from what it was when the wolves lived here with the Native Americans. Whether they can live here now or not has yet to be decided. What I do know is that if they are going to make it here they have to be controlled via human intervention and the people whom live amongst them need to feel involved and included in the management process. As of yet I don’t think the Feds have done a great job of doing that. JMHO
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I tried to staty out of this, but couldn't.
Unfortunately, I see wolves every couple of weeks during the winter from my house. In fact I saw two this afternoon on the ranch Doug Campbell manages when I headed home after a day of knife making/instruction (but that is another story). I do not live in the city but not in remote wilderness either, I live in a subdivision near a ski resort. Say what you like, but the federal government forced the wolves on the citizens of Montana, Idaho, and Wyoming (and now Oregon), despite the opposition of these states residents. If the majority of residents of your state would like to import them, you are welcome to take ours. I believe most every state had them before the Europeans arrived and if you want to revert to another time period and make room for them in our state, have at it. Watch them decrease you game numbers by 70%, reduce the recruitment rate to 6-7%, and increase the age structure to just over 12 years, as has happened here, then tell me it was good for the wildlife. However, the key issue is the wolves are not in danger of extinction and, in my opinion, are simply being used as a tool to replace man’s role in game management in the western states.
Now, Do you want to know how I really feel? :banghead:
I have to agree with Flungonin: SSS
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Walt,
Could make that a little clearer for me. :D Oh ok I think I understand you, SSS. :knothead: Anyone have some gas this fire....
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Steve:
With all due respect; our fish and game had a gag order put on them to keep their mouths shut about the wolves. That included the fact there were already wolf packs here; that were documented to be here; at the time of the 're-introduction'.
The promise of the re-introduction was to reach a level of 100 wolves including 10 breeding pairs; we now are at 700 wolves and 41 breeding pairs in Idaho.
The wolves that WERE here; were called "red wolves" they were 1/3 smaller than the introduced species. In the written logs of Lewis and Clark; they mentioned that the wolves in this area ( I live on the 'Lewis and Clark Trail' in Idaho); were 'much smaller'- than other wolves they saw in their travels.
I do not agree that the introduced wolves are in anyway close to being what WAS here before the 'reintroduction' of the larger species.
The actions of elk to escape wolves had always been to run uphill in deep snow to mire down the wolves and limit their attack system.
These bigger wolves have no problem with the deeper snow; and have hammered our bull elk (which winter in bachelor groups at higher elevations than the cow elk;calves and spikes).
If it all is 'retoric' why are fish and game officals ordered not to talk about it???
The governor we had at the time of the forced re-introduction; is now the secretary of the interior. Our new governor has openly stated he wants wolf tags issued now and to let the shooting begin.
Wolves are incredible animals; I raise dogs; lived my whole life with dogs around; and I see the 'dog' in them- but every species needs to be controlled or they overpopulate and other species suffer.
In Idaho; the species that are being effected are: elk; deer; bears; antelope; moose- that I personally have seen. I have to wonder why we are seeing fewer Mountain goats; and how the sheep are being effected.
But everything is being eaten. People I know that have trap lines loose everything they trap in some areas to wolves.
When I hear wolves howl; I hear coyotes eventually answer back. I know coyotes howl to get pheasants to cackle in the dark; then hunt them down; and I wonder if that is happening to the coyotes by the wolves.
I do know people here that trap and hunt coyotes; and they are seeing less coyotes.
There are missing dogs and cats; and I lost a donkey colt to the wolves.
Its easy to sit in a chair in the east and speculate on what we in the west are going through.
I assure you that the clock is ticking. Either a control hunt is put into action; or a lot of good people: will become outlaws.
( SSS. )
This wolf situation was wrong from the get go; and again; WE HAD wolves already!!!!!!!
:mad: :mad: :mad:
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Red wolf: 26" at shoulders; 60 pounds average; main diet deer and small game. pack sizes 10 to 12.
The introduced gray wolves are 30 inches at the shoulder; 85-115 pounds and up to 145. Packs up to 37. Main food: elk; deer; moose; dall sheep;caribou ( we HAD Caribou in upper Idaho prior to the 'reintroduction- although I don't know if the caribou population decrease is related at all: to the wolves);moose....and other game.
Although red wolves according to your link Steve - do not inhabit Idaho; I know biologists who are under a gag order: not to say they are here ( it would have stopped the introduction of the gray wolves!). However: their WIVES are not under gag orders- and they talk openly about the red wolves and the fact that their biologist husbands: would be fired for talking about it-- and lose their pensions!
This is the state of wildlife biology?
At what point do we recognise the wolves need to be controlled?
I have visited 'pro-wolf' sites where they openly say that they hope the gray wolves kill all the elk and deer; "SO THAT HUNTERS WILL HAVE NOTHING TO HUNT".
That would of course include traditional bowhunters!!! ( as in please think before yanking this topic)
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It is embarrassing to me that folks in unaffected areas (I'm from OH) would have the ordasity to even have an opinion. I don't expect someone from Idaho to tell me how to manage my groundhog population next to the bean fields (awsome trad bowhuntin opportunity!) The idea we have a "responsability" to try and return the eco-system to a pre-industrial revolution state is slightly insane I think. Unless we want to start shipping people off the continant!
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I will offer my comments here. I am not anti or pro wolf....yet. I love wild country and have spent a fair amount of time in it. Predators are part of the balance.
Lived in NW Montana for 20+ years and we have always had a few wolves. During that time they seemed to hold their own but experienced little population growth. It appears something has changed and the wolf population is growing.
In the fall of 2005 I discovered an area in the mountains that had a high deer population with several fine mature bucks. I didn't get one of those bucks but all year looked forward to the opportunity to pursue them during the 2006 season. Well it was very disappointing, I saw 2 or 3 deer a day in 2006 compared to 15-30 the year before. Same place, same conditions following a mild winter. I couldn't figure it out, sure seemed strange. When the snow came so did the realization that all the deer tracks from 2005 had been replaced with wolf tracks.
A lot of things have changed in the West. 200 years ago game wintered in the valleys and summered in the mountains or on the open prarie. Today those valleys are cities and ranches and the prairies are largely fenced and becoming more populated by the day. There was more room to roam and the factors in the entire equation were much different.
9 Mile- Were you near one of the Thompson Lakes? The area I spoke of is Thompson River country.
Chad
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Red wolves native to Idaho??? I've not seen that referenced anywhere in any of the peer-reviewed scientific literature. If you can find me a reference, I'll gladly read. Contrary to popular belief, not all government employees and wildlife biologists fly to work in black helicopters...no matter what their wives say.
The introduced wolves in ID and WY were introduced as an "experimental population" in order to allow the flexibility needed to manage problems, including killing livestock depredators. That's not to say that recovery was ever meant to be an "experiment". Contrast this with the naturally expanding population of wolves in NW MT which was afforded full protection as endangered under the ESA.
If you beleive that I disagree with the management of wolves, than you have not read my posts carefully. I fully support delisting and regulated hunting as well as livestock protection. Blind persecution is not an enlightened conservation perspective as far as I am concerned.
Every taxpayer has a stake and therefore a say in what happens on federal lands. I beleive local residents should be able to manage the problems as they need to on private lands.
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But the difficulty, as I see it Steve, is that in Washington things are decided on a political basis.
Things are being decided by career government employees who are more like politicians- within the FWS -without science and common sense as the basis for many of those decisions.
Why did we need predator reintroduction in the West? Mule deer, sheep, moose,goats- most every species save perhaps elk and pronghorns- is not INCREASING in numbers, but decreasing or just holding their own, especially mule deer, so WHY the pressing urgency for super-predators being reintroduced in the West?
Why not reintroduce them to metro Washington, DC, which has an out of control whitetail population?
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First let me say I am happy to see this thread staying so civil given the emotions that this topic sometimes brings out in us :clapper: .
Steve, I have a question you may be able to answer. Below is a quote from Meriwether Lewis:
"We scarely see a gang of buffaloe without observing a psrsel of those faithfull shepherds on their skirts in readiness to take care of the maimed wounded. The large wolf never barks, but howls as those of the atlantic states do." -- Meriwether Lewis
It would appear that the buffalo had been, at least to some degree, a portion of the subsistance for the wolf. Do you know if there was a study prior to wolf reintroduction to show if the impact on elk, deer, etc. would be higher due to the lesser number of buffalo now existing in the west?
I have to say that, after hunting in the state of Idaho for several years now, I sympathize with those who have to try to coexist with the wolves. I know I wouldn't be a happy resident in Ohio if someone reintroduced wolves here to help keep the evergrowing coyote population down.
Joe
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i am always suprised how worked up everyone gets when wolves come up. i've lived my whole life in montana. the basic cycle of life seems to be about 7 years. at the end of the coyote cycle the deer population is at its high and vice/versa. wolves have lived in montana the whole time i've been here (41 years). my biggest problem with wolves was they didn't need a reintroduction, they were already here and the population was getting bigger by the year. the amount of money that was spent on "bringing the wolf back" in my oppionion could have been used somewhere else. a hunting season for wolves would be welcomed by me but not an extermination. the wolf is a smart critter and would learn to stay away if we could at least shoot at them much the same as the grizzly. the elk, moose, and deer will have a huge learning curve in survival with the wolf with the population exploding like it is. i do honestly believe they will overcome it and the wolf population will once again go down much the same as with the coyote and painter. i sure hope i'm right. right now the hunting isn't what it was a mere 5 years ago. i wish we could relocate a few to central park so everyone could enjoy them.
matt
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I've also tried to stay out of this, but just to provide my limited experience:
I have property in Ontario & spend 5-6 weeks/year up there, most of the time in the bush. There is a healthy wolf population. I see them, hear them, and find their kills. They do kill deer, including mature (I mean big) bucks. They also can have a temporary negative impact on your hunt if they are running around your immedate locale. The deer become quite "scarce" for three or four days thereafter. They will also kill a dog; I try to keep mine in sight at all times, not an easy task.
I'll admit that a wolf pack in full howl as you walk to or from your stand is kinda chilling, but IMO we should fear things with more prospects of, well, leveling us, such as cancer, heart attacks, the stuff that's gonna get most of us.
So the wolfs are there, but the whitetails are too, are abundant enough, and get big. I live in MI and have heard many tales of the complete decimation of the UP herd due to wolves. I won't get into that, but will state what I know about my region in ONT: 1) there is an open season on wolves, two allowed per hunter 2) they will venture further north for moose when available 3) the provincial government has (I've been told) trapped or killed problem wolfs and 4) many hunters probably shoot them on sight, tag or no tag. I am not for (4) at all, anywhere or anyplace, and I also know loggers and others who have no interest in shooting 'em, including one whose dog was torn up pretty good by one. Some consider them part of the scene up there. Agrees with me.
According to locals ranging in age from 30's to 80's, the wolves have been there "forever", but coexist with the deer. The deer have actually become more numerous (and moose, less so) as the landscape has changed with massive poplar and bam cuts. In my humble opinion, they coexist because they look at 'em not as vermin nor as magical creatures, but as part of the wild that can occasionally require a bit of tempering. I hope the government there continues to allow that framework.
I will not pretend to judge their impact anywhere else in the world, the above is just my experience, FYI.
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I've been wondering since the beginning, how do you re-introduce something that was already here? :knothead:
I think if we send 5 or 6 wolves to every other state in the US, it would solve everyone's problems. :thumbsup:
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[QB] "Red wolves native to Idaho??? I've not seen that referenced anywhere in any of the peer-reviewed scientific literature. If you can find me a reference, I'll gladly read. Contrary to popular belief, not all government employees and wildlife biologists fly to work in black helicopters...no matter what their wives say."
Steve: I am quite sure you do not know about the red wolves in Idaho. If you knew about them; you probably ( as a well intentioned biologist;person; and hunter) would have objected to the introduction of gray wolves.
The FACT is that a gag order was put on this issue so that YOU and others could not put the existance of the red wolves into your decision about introducing the wolves.
Call some Idaho biologists at the fish and game and ask them questions about the wolves - as a biologist; and see what reaction you get.
A gag order gags. We do live in a free country; and there is a 'sunshine law' here; there is the freedom of information act- try to find out what the gag order is about through those actions; and then please tell me just how open to discussion the wolf issue is.
When I was securing signatures for a wolf season petition ( in THE Salmon grocery store) - I met the wives of several biologists. I saw the husband of one that I recognised standing several steps behind her when she talked about the gag order; other times the husband was not there at all.
Steve: get back to me on what the gag order was about- and then tell me about black helecopters.
By the way- there is no law that says a helecopter can not be black.
If you go to sites to look into buying helecopters; you will see that Black: is a very popular color.
Steve I know your really trying to be logical here; and seem to be interested in facts.
Seek them out- see what you come up with- find out about existing wolves in Idaho before the introduction.
Please don't ask me to produce what the biologists have a gag order over- how can I produce facts that are under a gag order?
I live in the middle of the area that is effected by the wolves.
Your own link stated that wolves can exist with a 40% reduction in population each year.
Why then are we not allowed to do that?
One thing you said sticks in my craw; and that is that it is nice to see preditors in the woods. I could not agree more. But wolves kill all the other preditors; they force mountain lions off their kills; they drag bears from their dens; they kill coyotes; they eat racoons and .... it is kinda hard to see the preditors in the woods now Steve- except the wolves.... are you supporting a 'one preditor in the ecosystem' policy?
If you note where people are from; and those that experience being in the woods with wolves while bowhunting: are pretty much fed up with the idea of letting the wolves eat their way through everything.
While people that do not live where the wolves are - are either scratching their heads and wondering what is going on- or think wolves should be allowed and normal controls should exist to keep them from exceeding the expected role of a preditor in todays world.
Except for the radical pro-wolf - ignore every other species clan.
I do not think it unreasonable to hunt wolves and control their numbers as we do with other species.
I worry by the time serious biologists figure out what is going on - it will be to late for our elk and deer- and that will effect bowhunting.
Black helecopters...... geesh. :rolleyes:
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Brian, I do not think it is unreasonable to control wolf numbers like every other species either. In fact, I think it is absolutely necessary for the long term conservation of wolves. So it seems we are on the same page...however, I beleive the arguments so frequently used to support massive reduction of wolf populations will only slow down the goal which you seek. The feds have no evil intentions here, its just that they are accountable to ALL Americans and as such have to balance the needs and desires of all stakeholders. So the louder the wolf haters scream, the louder the wolf lovers will scream, and the extremists will dominate the discussion and the decision will become a stalemate, leaving the moderate majority waiting a long time for needed relief. The extremists on both sides use rhetoric, hyperbole, and fear to push their agendas. They speak in absolutes such as "Wolves have NEVER attacked a human." or "Wolves kill ALL the elk, or ALL the predators." Neither statement is true, and neither statement moves the discussion closer to common ground where a solution can be reached. Yet, it seems to be all you hear. The consipracy theories such as this gag order only derails the conversation further. I am not aware of a single shred of scientific evidence that red wolves were ever a part of the northern rockies ecosystem. And I spent two years trying to get wolves restored to my own backyard in Upstate New York, so I know the wolf issue in great depth. Why would the ID game department have a gag order forbidding them to talk about red wolves, when the state fish and game agencies in ID, MT and WY opposed wolf recovery - on the record - from the beginning. You argue that state F&G biologists suppressed the existence of red wolves against their will, so they could bring in gray wolves, but they didn't want the gray wolves to begin with either.... Huh? Who issued the gag order? The feds? If so since when do states listen to the feds??? I'm sorry, but the whole story holds no water for me.
I think I enjoyed Stu's comments the most. His real experience with a long term perspective is probably the most valid brought to the table in this thread. Once the northern rockies sytem adjusts to the dramatic changes in the past decade, this whole debate will seem like a waste of breath. I really don't think living with wolves needs to be the challenge its made out to be. After all, they are just another critter.
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Steve-------BS!!!, You are in freaking MARYLAND!! Please tell me how much you know about what is going on in the Rockies again. It's NOT rhetoric, These non-native species have to compete now with the packs of gray wolves that were already living in the area. I have been in the hills my whole life my friend, and the wolves never really went away, they just learned how to stay out of sight. Now, explain to me how introduced wolves are supposed to compete with the natives for territory and food supply?
This all happened on account of some Easterners who thought it would be a "good idea" to make sure we had wolves again. What they fail to realize is the fact that the Human species are part of the ecosystem, too! The Human species has multiplied to a point that there is no more room for the wolf in the mountains. We have cattle ranches, sheep ranches, pig farms. You know? Listen----what is it going to take before the greenies realize that these introduced species aren't a solution to anything? Whats it going to take? A child packed off by a wolf that has been forced into the land of Humans? These wolves have been handled by humans, they have learned that the humans will just set them free--so they HAVE NO FEAR OF HUMANS!! We are just another link in the ol' food chain.
On our elk hunt last year there was absolutely no way you could call an elk in. In fact, when I bugled a bit I had a wolf standing not 10 yards from my hide. This is a problem when the elk aren't even doing their natural thing-----the woods were dead silent DURING THE RUT!
Tell me again how cool it is to have the damn wolves.....
Jeff
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Why don't they "introduce" a few Canadian wolves into the hills of Maryland? I wonder what the result would be? It's the same here-------I'll be damned! People actually live in the mountains!
Jeff
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Nothing is being accomplished in this thread anymore so I'm shutting her down for a bit to let heads cool off.