Trad Gang
Main Boards => Hunting Legislation & Policies => Topic started by: Izzy on February 24, 2007, 09:03:00 PM
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Well folks this is gonna be hard for some to stomach but listen.Wolves are in the process of being delisted,coyotes are despised by many,(I shoot em but I respect and admire them), countless other varmints are hunted and trapped in the name of predator control.Lets not forget the cats.Why is it then that raptors fly under the radar.Sure theyre beneficial to an extent but no more so than other predators when properly managed.Ive found evidence of numerous turkey kills as well as personally witnessed birds of prey killing poults and adult grouse.Lets not even mention rabbits.Where have all the woodchucks gone to here in the east?Lets not just blame the coyotes although they do have a part in it.Hawks do a job on baby chucks.I hope I dont get stoned by the next TradGanger I meet in person but I think its time the hunting community rethink their position on the killer birds.I dont despise them, theyre beautiful and noble to an extent but they need to be better managed, although I suspect that they by the shoot,shovel and shut up folks which does not include me.Well there you are people, my 2 cents.Im not a professional wildlife manager but I spend enough time out there to see whats going on.Share your thoughts with me please.What solutions do you see? In addition, I do not suggest that we take matters into our own hands and violate any laws whatsoever but could use some scientifically sound,researched management techniques. :scared:
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I disagree.
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ouch!!! this ain't going to be good. the hawk is a very spiritual animal to me and i would hate to think the s.s.s method is the answer.
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I respectfully disagree as well.
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I would sooner cut my arm off at the elbow than harm a raptor. They are kin, and more.
Completely unscientific, just a gut reaction. :scared:
This is one of the very few cases in which I am not inspired to objectively explore all of the ramifications. Perhaps it will gnaw at me to the point where I will. As much as I believe that the laws that were enacted to protect birds from the millinery market hunters are outdated, heavy-handed and unAmerican in that they presume guilt rather than having to prove it, 'sss' is a vile, cowardly act. Its juxtaposition with the birds I revere (and rely on) generates revulsion and rancor in my heart.
Ick.
Killdeer
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i'm with Killy, its not just a hawk your talking about its my brother, loved, respected and honored.
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I agree 100%
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I would tend to disagree as well. Here is a question to ponder: What has the raptor population been like over recent history while the 'chuck population seems to be declining? What is the coyote ppopultaion trend in that same period? I just happened to ask a few of these questions while sharing my observations with a wildlife biologist last week. He seemed to confirm that the raptors have been holding their own and maybe even declining due to less food supply while the coyote population in the east has been growing. The woodchuck decline seems to be directly correlated with Wile E's rise while the hawks may be having to hunt harder because the coyotes are getting more mice, rabbits, chucks, etc.... These seem to be the observations in the south-central Appalachians anyway....
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IMO..Skunks and coon are way harder on the turkey, pheasant, grouse, etc. than any bird of prey. And as far as Im concerned (being a horse owner and being around cattle) they can eat all the gophers, prairie dogs etc. that they want. Im convinced they will not make them extinct..Just my opinion.
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Mt Ken and Killy, I suspected this would evoke some emotions but I feel spiritual ties to the coyote the way you do to the birds.I dont think either one is more destructive than the other but they do both need sound management that the raptpors are lacking.Respectfully Herk.
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herkimerhunter, i think redtails are more abundant than cotton tails in my area. thats not true obviously, but their numbers are much higher than i remember them. i dont know enough to say whether there are too many or not, but i do see a lot more when im out there. i agree, in a way, with the rest so far as i would have a difficult time killing one. i dont know how much attention wildlife managers give them but, it would seem to me their numbers would directly affect small game. we have very few rabbits and grouse compared to years ago. obviously there are other factors, but i think it would be hard to deny the hawk's part. this is interesting to me because three years ago i would totally be blasting the thought of killing birds of prey thinking they are something noble. it will be interesting to see where this leads, i hope the issue doesnt become such that the birds need to be controlled. nothing quite like the screech of a circling hawk over a valley on a crisp, cold, fall morning.
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I have to disagree, their are plenty of turkeys in my area and tons of rabbits as well. They do a great service by help controlling rodents and such. Now coyotes are a different storty, they really destroy the deer pop. and wreck the hunting I love most. I see no negatives to having birds of prey in my world!! Shawn
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Humans are a lot bigger problem than raptors or coyotes will ever be. Reducing the population of humans would do more good for this planet than anything, but we don't ever discuss that. I say let the coyotes and raptors work it out on their own. Nature is a lot better at fixing its problems than people. We removed ourselves from nature a long time ago, so I don't think we have to right to decide how to manage it.
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I should add a lot of what you speak of disappearing is the lack of farming and small farms in general. There is a lack of necessary cover and habitat for the species you speak of. I can go 25 miles south of me and see tons of chucks and you know my rabbit population, also I know of areas where grouse are very abundant I also might add all the areas I mentioned have a lot of birds of prey, even bald eagles which have made a huge comeback along the hudson. Shawn
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I live in an area of Western Washington that has a healthy bald eagle and hawk population. I've come to admire both of them and look for them whenever I'm out in the pasture. In all the years I've watched them, I've only seen them kill fish and rodents. Everything else they eat is already dead.
Coyotes have a purpose, but they reproduce at a much higher rate than raptors. I think their populations need to be managed much more closely.
Just my opinion. ;o)
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Agree with Shawn. Small game hunting has been losing popularity here over the past couple of decades and much of what raptors eat are considered nuisance species and those species will increase reproduction to stay with what the land can support with whatever is taken by predators. This is a nonissue that just won't get public support for emotional reasons alone.
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I agree with jmiller, damn city folk thinks its fun to buy a farm and subdivide. next thing you know you have 50 more families w/ more kids on the way.
Some people just shouldnt be allowed to breed.
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Few raptors kill deer, elk or sheep. I have an owl that lives in my shop and none of his pellets indicate anything more than rodents.
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Interesting topic for sure. I think man has made enough animals disappear. It is one thing to hunt, another to "manage". I for one enjoy seeing the hawks, falcons and eagles....even if it would mean less small game, which I doubt. Nature has its own ways of species survival. Normally the prey outbreeds the hunters...
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ok i read the first couple post on here and he talked about the s.s.s. but he never said he did it as to me it seemed you guys were accusing him of. i mean no disrespect. to me i live in san diego county and cant say much we dont have a very good rabbit population we have some decent dove quail pheasent hunting in or area but not the best. we have enough coyotes an mountain lions. and quite a few raptors. i do think that if the are a predator just like all the other predatore animals there should be a chance to do something if need be. i have to nest by my house and have had chickens taken up right in font of us will were playing a game outside. so if they do that image what they will be more willing to do with out peole around. i do respect them and think they are beautiful but i also think all the things i shoot are. so i think if the population supports it why can they not be hunted just like most other game animals or even non game animals. i mean no disrespect to those that are close to them i respect them to along with all the other animals.
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Nowhere do I see any accusatory tones in this thread. He is putting a question out there is all. I can tell you from a hunting public image standpoint, a raptor hunting season would be disasterous. It would do more damage to our image than everything done by PETA and HSUS in the last 20 years. As far as your chickens, well you let them free range and you take chances with a lot of different animals making a meal out of them. No disrespect intended, but we have a enough trouble with our image without creating new problems.
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Humans have been removed from nature? Can't agree with that one. Humans are a part of nature, and impact it every day. #1 reason for any decline in animal population, loss of habitat. Shawn touched on that one. I don't know of any reason to control raptor populations. I certainly don't see the rodent population hurting any. Tree rats and smaller animals is what I see raptors eating. Do they eat other things? I'm sure. When I see Coyotes moving in to urban areas, that signals me that there might be a few too many around. Same goes for Bears, like in NJ. I don't see so many raptors to peak my interest in thier number. Ok, I'll shut up.
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Raptors should never be hunted or killed. Their benifits are numerous. No didadvantage that I can see. They are not the problem, yotes are the problem in almost all cases of low rabbit and small game bird populations as well as skunks,coons,possums and others.
They are our brothers and sisters and only take what they need to survive. NEVER.
Danny
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I'm not that fond of hawks or any other bird of prey although they are nice to watch in action. I guess i don't like the competition, i don't believe that any animal is my brother i feel that they were put on this earth for mans use whether it be for food or clothing etc. I walked for about 5 hours on sat looking for bunnies i saw some tracks and did see one rabbit that quickly went into his hole. I did see some fox tracks but no sign of a fox kill, i saw no sign of a kill by any bird of prey or by human. Yet i saw only one rabbit, one would have to ask themselves what happened to all the rabbits, grouse, and in the summer the woodchucks. I would have to say loss of habitat around here, the modern farming practices don't allow for hedgerows or much else that gets in the way. The rotation of crops is maybe two to three years at tops then the fields are plowed back up only after tons of liquid manure are spread over them this has caused the woodchucks to live almost solely in the hedges that are left and the edge of woodlots. When at one time they were all over the fields again less suitable habitat means less animals. Just down the road from me their was an area of about 100 acres plus of thorn apple and brush, it was fairly wet unfarmable we all thought not so it ended up being bulldozed and tiled now it's open crop land. That one area had the greatest impact on the deer numbers around my house than anything i can remember. Yes there's more feed for the deer and other animals but no place to go and hide in the harshest part of winter, the land can only support so many. And the habitat that these creatchers need shrinks daily. Just my opinion right or wrong.
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I DON'T disagree! I am hearing some frieghtful responses as to why not, because they are warm and fluffy type stuff and that is scary from hunters as it's the same mentality and rhetoric that anti-hunters use, such as "how could you shoot it, the bunny is so cute, and cuddly". I'm not saying a full out onslaught with a bag-limit of five any raptors per day....
In MY area, Juneau, AK we are OVERRUN with bald eagles and Freakin' RAVENS and seagulls. It is to the level of filty at times. No managment can happen as they have federal protection and once animals get federalized they generally are NOT managed.
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You hit it right on the head Clint. The pesticides did so much damage that we're lucky to have seen the rebound of the birds of prey. It's unfortunate but the DEC has mismanaged the wildlife for many years, and then lie to us, the sportsmen. They still deny a coyote problem, haven't done a deer study for nearly a decade (except for CWD testing), and are now conducting a 5 year beaver study. The coyote explosion is the main reason for the small game and upland bird decline. Raptors don't kill for the sake of killing, coyotes do.
I've not seen a rabbit, woodchuck, quail, or pheasant for years. But have seen several packs of 12-15 coyotes running the hill and valley by my place. I do not want to see coyotes eliminated, every creature has its' place, but they are the problem and they need to be addressed.
I proposed a year long season, but the DEC scoffed at the idea, saying YOU need to go out and kill more. I countered them by asking for the logic in ending the season at the end of March, instead of letting it go until after the first fawns have dropped in May. No repsonse from the 3 DEC so-called wildlife managers at the podium. It's OUR fault the coyotes have decimated the wildlife and expand their areas and numbers.
I, personally will never hunt a bird of prey. I prefer watching them glide and hunt the early mornings from my stand.
I'm sick of the DEC turning a blind eye to sportsmen's concerns, then having the nerve to ask for license fee lincreases. With nearly 40 million dollars collected for licenses last year, they better wake up.
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Well, I have yet to read a more controversial post on this website. I have worked with hawks for over 3 years now as a falconer. I love raptors! I think the bowhunting community could learn from the falconry community. Falconers are a small minority that is besieged by anti-hunting types of organizations. Falconers have learned to watch their public image carefully and know that they are under constant public scrutiny. The idle, admittedly unscientific opinion that raptor populations might need to be "managed" is very inflammatory and damaging to the bowhunting community in general. Especially considering the waning popularity of hunting. On a personal level I am ok with management if scientifically applied even for raptors. I only take issue with such a controversial post in a public forum. In my opinion not much good can come of it.
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we are OVERRUN with bald eagles and Freakin' RAVENS and seagulls. It is to the level of filty at times.
You don't need to go to the sea to see seagulls around here just look in the parking lot at McDonald's or near our dairy farms there are thousands of them. The parking lot at one of our local schools look like it was painted white with the fecal matter from these birds pretty sick if you ask me. They need to be thinned out for sure.
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Seems there are many localized problems with Birds, predators etc. Obviously the problems are not every where. I agree there are many species that go unchecked by game management. This is why we must write letters to the "people in charge" state, federal etc. Try to get your concerns noticed. This is the only way any thing will ever happen. That is how antis keep the NJ bear hunt from happening so often. If you really think there is a problem, this is a great place to discuss it, but to make things happen, there are others who need to know. I am willing to take part in population control of any wildlife if it is determined to be necessary. Limits and Regulations keep it healthy.
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Just got back from bunny hunting.I saw one but no shot.Saw 2 redtails and was in awe at their beauty.One landed in a large oak 70 yards uphill from me so I watched.In a few minutes squirrels began to appear in the oak grove and began barking at the hawk.He flew off when I tried to shoot it(with my cannon digital)sorry for that one I couldnt resist.Anyway they were awsome to see.I saw one grouse and not a lot of tracks on the light snow above the crusty stuff.There used to be a ton of them there along with one of the last strongholds of pheasants in my area.I got to thinking about this topic alot more.I still feel that there is no reason that they cant be treated like any other part of the ecosystem that is constantly manipulated by us,mankind through hunting or other means.I too was alarmed as was JeffH at how people were so emotional over the topic and humanized birds of prey.Theres not a lot of people who can honestly say a deer of any species or a strutting gobbler is less regal than any bird of prey and also not a lot who wont hunt them because theyre too beautiful.Im not interested in having "raptor hunting seasons"obviously unacceptable by the majority of the non hunting public and as you can see here the hunters as well.My main interest was to see how other people feel about it.Im sure the issue varies from region to region.Im also sure that its our responsibility as hunters to do whats right for the environment.We're generally the only ones that do.There are a lot of things in life that are unpleasant but necessary, I do them everyday in my profession as a police officer.Im a hawk hater by no means but they are just another part of the ecosystem to me and should be given no sacred status.Sure there was a time when it was needed but that times come and gone.Sorry if I offended anyone but I feel that some of you here are as concerned about the wild as I am and this just never crossed your mind.Just interested in what people thought at this time.Thanks
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Well the only thing I can add to this is when the hawks set up camp at he Dove field you might as well go home.The owl is another one that will kill a load of birds.I watched one kill a half a dozen chickens in two hours.
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No offense at all. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I try not to humanize/Disneyize any creature. But like I said above, they are not opportunistic killers, they kill when they must eat or feed their young, unlike coyotes which will kill and keep on killing. Glad to see you had the chance to see a bunny and a few red tailed hawks.
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My 2 cents...
I think Land Developers do more damage than all the raptors and predators combined.
I feel no need to kill any predator or raptor w/o seeing the complete effect in the area / enviorment that I'm at. Example when I go deer hunting and I see more coyote sign then deer sign then it's time to reduce the pack; with respect and admiration.
I have much more resentment to people that have been dropping off their dogs in the woods and stray cats then anything else.
Do not get me wrong I have a cat, and a dog and I love those little buggers, but they are a house cat and dog and not harmful to any wildlife or song bird.
I think more than anything we have to see the balance, and worry about human intervention rather than raptors or other predators.
I know for a fact that our local Fish and wildlife has release falcons in the downtown area to control the pigeon population. I hear them every morning when i get to work and it;s nice to know in the concrete jungle there is some balance in the wildlife.
I know I'm rambling and it's late, I cant sleep, but I hope everyone gets my drift..meaning...etc.
let me know what you think of my comments...
Take care
Nick
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In the hunting and anti-hunting communities I see the arguments about specific cases at times as mere false reasoning, when really the person just wants to happen what they want and how they want it. For anti-hunters, it's often the anthropomorphizing of animals, and the numbers they use to argue to not hunt a particular animal don't really matter, they would want the same conclusion regardless.
For hunters, I often hear 'management' of herds or predators, when oftentimes (not always, mind you) the real reason for the pro-hunting position is simply because the hunter wants to hunt it, or doesn't want something else hunting what he hunts.
So I am happy to hear this question couched in terms of a science-based look at raptors. I left another forum online because I read 'sss' as a response to another hunter's picture of a mountain lion.
I feel much more comfortable when I hear a hunter use 'management' of game to mean that he isn't going to hunt a particular animal this year, because he's seen 'em get hit too hard lately, when I see that his consideration of hunting includes not hunting when it is inappropriate in his place.
When I consider habitat loss, pollution, yayhoos and scalawag poachers in our midst, I would rather see us consider a native animal as having first consideration, even to the extent of fewer days hunting particular game, and even if it means eradication of non-native species we love to hunt (feral pigs, not javies, and turkeys in California come to mind). Thus, I oppose hunting hawks. Looking at coyote expansion in the last hundred years, I have no problem with hunting coyotes.
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I STRONGLY AGREE WITH JMILLER,,,JUST DELETE THE REST OF MY POST AS TO NOT GET BLASTED..BC USE IT..
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I have as much reason to admire raptors as anyone.Its the way i was raised.I love seeing Hawks and Eagles,out and about,its Lela Wakan to me.Haveing said that,I have to agree,with SteveH.If in need,i dont see why raptor populations,shouldnt be managed,the same as any other species.
All those Raptor feathers,you see,in all the old NDN,pics,didnt come from roadkills.
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in my area red tails have hit a population growth, and many areas have a ton of them. they do take a toll on the game bird population but so does everything else habitat loss, farming, and other predators. I have a friend who is studying raptors for the michigan DNR, and they have relocated some to urban areas to help clean up with the rodent control and pigeons which i think really helps. I won't want a raptor hunting season just maybe some agencies doing work to relocate some to needed areas and i'm sure just like everything in nature the growth is a cycle and will eventually come down again. One season I never understood is Crow, we are allowed to shoot them here, but no one does anything with them and they are nature's garbage men cleaning things up.
I feel coyotes in my area get a bad rap, everyones says that harm the deer populations. After all the reading, researching and trapping. I feel they may take a few deer but way less then those deer getting hit by cars. the deer roadkill provides more than enough food for coyotes. It's also a proven fact that something like 80% of a the deer found in coyote stomachs is roadkill or carrion(from the book Eastern Coyote and the story of its success). Coyotes are like any other animal if there is enough food they will populate and disperse expanding their territory.
If coyotes are a problem in your area find a trapper or try hunting them...hunting a predator is a true challenge and most coyotes will put you to the test of your abilities.
I think we need predators no matter what type, and nature always has a way of balancing out the populations unless humans step in..we usually screw it up. I wonder why, we can't even control our own species.
Good post, makes everyone think and got some reactions from people.
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I wonder how many of you have ever seen coyotes kill for the sake of killing? I have not. I have seen eagles kill salmon drop them on a river bank go kill another one and eat it. Leaving the first one to waste. In my little part of the world we have only a few coyotes a few rabbits and a ton of hawks and eagles. Hawks will kill much larger game than just rodents. Using a deer distress call I had a hawk about stick his talons in my face. Indians are as spiritual as they come but they also killed rapters to use for ceremonies. I like to see these birds as much as anyboby but I do not see the problem with a selective harvest. Where I live I can not blame the coyotes for not having rabbits, squirrels, or any other game because we do not have very many. We also do not have very many deer I wonder if that is the coyotes fault? I think it is funny how people can love one predator but hate another.
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Drive a ways on any highway in Michigan. You will see raptors perched in trees all along the way.
They are all small game hunting.
Birds,rabbits,squirrels. They kill, they eat, and they go rest. Just like me.
Coyotes,kill anything and almost everything they come across. Whether they are hungry or not. They never rest. They never stop. Opportunity knocks and they open the door. Every day they are bigger, smarter, faster, stronger, and hungrier.
Coyotes of today are not the same as yesterday.
They will be different tommorrow. Hunt them, and you will find they have few weak points. (They can`t hide from the hound dogs nose)I love them.
Coyotes HATE cars. And noise and lights. They don`t hunt next to a road. Thats why the hawk is perched along I-75. He hunts where the coyote doesn`t.
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When I 1st brought this topic up, I never meant to suggest raptor hunting seasons nor did I intend to vilify them.My intention was to suggest that if needed, organizations such as The Ruffed Grouse Society,Turkeys Unlimited,Pheasants forever,Ducks Unlimited and so on could apply and be issued permits to kill however many their studies determined what was necessary.I couldnt believe how many people despise coyotes but gladly tolerate hawks and owls doing what all predators were meant to do.I find it hard to believe that any wild animals including yotes kill for the sake of killing,it goes against their very own survival.For an animal to waste their own resources just doesnt seem plausible.They have evolved to kill for survival only.Again,not to say that raptors kill too much in all circumstances but they should not be protected at all costs while every other predator is not.And to the people who say they should never be killed legally because of their helpfulness in eating vermin, why havent we stopped killing snakes?Im not trying to sound like a scientist, just trying to make people question the reasons that they think raptors are off the table.
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Bonebuster, most coyotes do not kill just to kill research has proven that over and over, just like wolves few kill just to kill. Yes they do rest, the lounge around to conserve energy and rest like every other animal. They are not smarter than past coyotes, they just have more opportunities than before, hence the population growth near the suburbs (free food with little work). I've have hunted them and seen them outsmart some of the best hounds, traps, and calls (that's why i love the challenge). Hate cars? ever take a drive towards detroit and see them walking along the roadside hunting a few feet from the highway during rush hour? It's a common every day thing...so is following a hay mower getting mice and other animals killed by it.
Herkimerhunter, just like every other predator some will not think of harming them. i think you'd have to involve some falconary groups to really study the birds and the effects they create....have you done any research online? I'd be interested to read it. I'm sure a few groups would gladly share info with you.
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When I was a kid seeing a hawk or eagle was a rare treat. Don`t remember much talk of coyotes until the mid eighties or so either. Things have changed. For the better no doubt. Coyotes howl behind my house every night. Eagle sightings are almost daily, and hawks abound.
The first dead coyote I ever saw was in 1983.
It was a male and he weighed about tweny five to thirty pounds I would guess. No one would have ever guessed that tweny years later 50 plus pounders, though rare, would start showing up.
In my other post I said coyotes kill everything and almost anything they come across. They also EAT everything and almost anything they come across. They kill alot of my neighbors sheep and don`t eat them, but I think its because they get disturbed.
Where I live,if you see a coyote from the road, and you so much as take your foot from the accelerater, they are heading for cover. The fact that they have figured out they can hunt freely in urban areas only solidifies what I said about their becoming "smarter". How do they know we can`t? No matter how I try to think otherwise,
a coyote who is not afraid of being seen in daylight is a bad yote. He does not know fear because he has LEARNED there IS nothing to fear.
I know of ALOT of fellow hunters who have shot deer and upon recovery there is only bones and hide left. With only a couple of hours from hit to recovery . It seems this went from never happening, to a major concern every time you shoot at last light. How many yotes does it take to eat a deer in two hours?
I have read that yotes don`t hunt in packs. Hmmm.
I have read that they are usually solitary. Hmmm.
The way I see it, raptors no doubt kill, probably
more than we realize. They have not changed much except that there are more of them.
Coyotes I believe have changed. Alot. In a short period of time. And I believe they will continue to change.
At the very least the size of the skins on my wall have increased dramatically. As does my respect for the challenge the wily yote presents.
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For some reason this is an emotional subject. I don't know why. If raptors killed big game there would be an outcry to "delist" them. As it is they kill small game.
All animals need to be professionally and scientifically managed for the benifit of all
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Like others have said I beleive they are the spirits of the grandfathers and ancient ones. I will not kill them for any reason.