Trad Gang
Main Boards => Hunting Legislation & Policies => Topic started by: Dave2old on July 14, 2007, 07:39:00 PM
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Fellow politically-minded traditionalists ... by way of brief self-intro as to "where I'm coming from" with my topic: I am 61 and was born and raised in OK. Started shooting bows at 8, competing at 9, first deer solo "wilderness" deer hunt at 14 (rifle), first deer killed (recurve) at 18. Volunteered for Marines in 1968, at 21, for 6 years, during which I went from private to captain. Been living in CO for the past 27 years, sacrificing much professionally and materially (as has my wife, bless her) in order to live my passion of hunting elk with stickbows, and for personal freedom. I am very liberal in some ways, very conservative in others. OK, so ...
One thing I consistently note when reading these interesting and thoughtful threads, and in the broader world of hunting politics, is that almost all anti-hunter issues and concerns are focused in the East, including "western" places like Texes that have no public lands. It occurs to me that where we have little or no public land, and/or most good private hunting land is leased to the privileged, we the "common" Americans are herded together and these are therefore the places where we're most vulnerable to the antis. Also, these are the places where most antis live and are made, as without public lands to roam in, thenonhunting majority easily become detached from the real workings of wild nature, thus from the absolute necessity of predation in the workings of nature, thus from hunting.
All of this helps me to understand a longstanding frustration in that so many hunters are easily frightened and quick to take strong action when we think the antis are coming after our "right" to hunt, or the "liberals" are coming after our "right" to bear arms ... in both cases, we say to one another, this is because we want to protect the sacred American tradition of hunting, which is among the most meaningful ways we have of exercising our freedom as privileged Americans. Where the frustration comes in for me, is when the same hunters who stand tall against real or perceived assaults by the antis and/or those who would take away our guns (and maybe someday our bows)... these same hunters most often don't seem to give a tinker's dam about the fact that, now more than ever, our public lands wildlife habitat and America's best remaining happy hunting grounds, and thus, America's primary expression of freedom, are under constant assault -- by the current administration, by greed-poisoned extractive industry cartels, by the industry-sponsored ATV onslaught which seems determined to turn all of wild nature into a profitable motorized playground teeming with people who can't or won't walk anymore ... and more.
Now, thanks to all of you, I'm starting to understand this perplexing and harmful breach of unity, to wit: Most of us live in the population centers of the East, South, or Midwest, where there are little or no public lands and we really have to scramble to find a place to hunt without being part of a crowd. So naturally our defenses are aimed at the resulting, immediate and local, threats.
Same here in the West, where we -- and this is very real and personal for me and thousands of other westerners -- we are rapidly losing our old favorite personal "secret" public hunting grounds every day to the above-named pack of -- in effect, antihunting and anti-freedom -- invaders. Meanwhile, we have so many gun privileges out here (I have a concealed carry permit even though I have no need for it and never carry) and we're spread across so many millions of acres of public lands, and antis are so relatively few, that they can't effectively touch us.
So, even as eastern hunters don't seem to give a hoot, or enough of a hoot, about western hunters' problems, westerners don't pay close enough attention to our eastern brothers' concerns.
What a powerful force we could be if we all cared about one another's problems, even if I'll never hunter in NJ or Texas, and you'll never hunt in CO or MT.
Ah, but the culture of ideas gets in the way here too. Unless we become united hunters first, and Christians, athiests, Republicans, Dems, liberals, conservatives, etc. secondarily, "progress" is going to be the end of everything that's left of what's good and natural for us all.
And add to all of this, the fact that we have so many big, rich, and convincing groups who pretend to support hunters, while in fact venally castle-building for themselves: "If it weren't for US, the antis would end hunting tomorrow! Send us your money and give us your blind, thoughtless political allegance!" "If it weren't for US, the liberals would confiscate your deer rifle tomorrow! Give US your money and blind political allegiance!"
True freedom has never been won, or preserved, but blindfolded lynch mobs. I fear for us.
Good cheers, dave
Just some stray thoughts at happy hour on a summer's Saturday eve. Shoot straight, Dave
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California is pretty far west as are Washington and Oregon.
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Thanks, Dave! It's kinda like a "Not in MY backyard syndrome". I know living here in the east, my main threat is the posting of private land, anti-hunter confrontations on public lands.
We really don't have much of an ATV problem, but I'm sure it won't be long. The anti's where I hunt have even gone as far as putting nails in cardboard, and hiding them under leaves in the parking lots to be run over by hunters. Things are getting a little different there now that Bambi is starting to eat their expensive flora in their million dollar home backyards!
We're all in this together, and I for one will try to help where I can.
Lee Vivian
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Vermonster -- Agreed: CA is a nation unto itself, and as overcrowded as any eastern state, moreso than many. I was referring to the Intermountain West. But geography was really beside the point of my point, which Lee captures in his final line, above, to wit: those of us with abundant public lands and a more rural culture, where anti problems thus are minimal or nonexitent, should not forget, or neglect to help out with, the anti problems faced by our brothers elsewhere. Likewise, it's a shame and a loss to us all that hunters who don't live in, and rarely if ever hunt in the West, are inclined to poo-poo our public lands problems and invaders, which are costing us hunting opportunities as surely as any pack of antis or posted signs. On a personal note, I don't appreciate being called a tree hugger, a greenie in camo, or an extreme environmentalist because I fight hard to protect and conserve my public lands hunting and fishing fair-access rights from the current and growing onslaught of motorized invaders, slip-shod and greed-driven energy development, and repeated attempts by the current political regime to actually sell off America's public commons. Again, Lee said in one sentence what I'm struggling to say. We would all fare better if we could all fight together. dave
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Dave,
As always your writing is insightful, thought provoking and right on target. Here in Montana things are also going south (no pun intended).
We are losing ground and hunting opportunities to wealthy corporate landowners, greedy outfitters and snobish out of staters who have left the hussle of city to life to find there piece of heaven on the now famous "Montana Ranchette".
As the secretary for the Montana Bowhunters association I am priveldged to see what is coming down the road and whats being done...(or at least trying to be done). Sometimes I feel as if we're fighting a forest fire with a squirt gun. It seems the many expect the few to fight thier battles. I see the future here in Montana growing darker unless we unite to save what is left and protect the Wildness from the very people who claim to love it.
In Bozeman where I live aka (Boz-Angeles) I have watched wealthy, powerful Californians move in drive up real estate prices, change the structure of our town and begin to materialize and destroy the very "simple western life" they claim to have come in search of!
I fear the enemy is here! What can we do to stop it...or maybe slow it down so my son will still know wild places and wild wapiti when he is grown?
Respectfully, Peter
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Pete,you are so right, we are losing ground! I really hope my two sons have the opportunity to hunt some of the same beautiful, wild places that I have been fortunate enough to hunt. As a native westerner, it is the simplicity and the abundance of wild places that has kept my heart from leaving. The more it gets diluted, the more I yearn to get away. It is strange for me to hear that Montana is experiencing the same rampant growth as colorful Colorado, damn shame. Hopefully the next generation,(my two sons, Tanner, etc) can hunt with freedom in ALL the wild places we all love so much. T
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T,
Amen brother. I know the growing pains that Colorado is facing and has faced. Montana hasn't gotten that bad yet...But I fear its becoming the "new" Colorado. Thanks to movies like "Legends of the fall" and "A river runs thru it" every city folk' thinks their pot of gold is waiting in the Big Sky. Unfortunately once they get here the first thing they do is put up "NO HUNTING" signs and then ask wheres the nearest Starbucks??
BY the way, I'm flattered you used my quote! Thank you!
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Dave, Lee, Peter,
All of you are soundng Gabriel's trumpet to announce the demise of the west. They call Montana the last best place, and it is. But in just a decade of living in Missoula coming from Cripple Creek, Colorado, the change is tangible.
We are blessed in Montana with abundant public lands, however a larger and larger portion of that land is being blocked off to public access, by new land owners closing off roads which used to open to the public. We are seeing before our very eyes, our way of life coming to an end. Now it isn't all doom and gloom, but there are a lot more lands lost than gained.
We are seeing our elk herds being the political target of some landowners, who only want to kill only a few big bulls, and then want the game department to solve the problem of the rest of the elk eating their grass and hay when they do not allow any public hunting on their private lands.
Yes, I can walk out my back door and go hunt elk and deer on public land that I can reach by being given permission to cross private land...no lease, no high fence, no ATV. But I am very fortunate.
The west is changing, and not necessarily for the good. But, I work at trying to preserve our priviledge to access public lands.
Gary Carvajal
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Gary -- I hear you. Ironically, in the Missoula and Front Range areas, Cabela's (whom we've all helped make the mega-rich monster they now are) is a major player, bying up private lands formerly open to public access, and selling them as rich-man's "hunting preserves."
"Call a place paradise, and kiss it goodbye." Montana has over-advertised itself, I fear. It's strange, living in these last best times, when so few among us even realized what is being lost, and how, and why. Dave
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I'm with ya Garo...my MBA brother in arms. But they don't call Bozeman ("Boz-Angeles") for nothing.
Montana is paradise. It has always been my piece of heaven on this earth. But I fear that we are watching the beginning of Paradise lost. Let us hope that we the few, can stop those the many from destroying what we love about the last best place!
"We make a living by what we get, we make a life by what we give!"
Peter
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Yup...
Garo
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The point of my statement was that no matter where you are in this country, you aren't safe from the anti-movement and to ignore them is to give them freedom to spread their poison. As the urban areas get more and more crowded, these wealthy sorts by up land and ranches in our rural areas and then post them and spend money in legislatures to make where they have gone into where they have been.
Diligence and education are key.
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I agree. And my initial message in no way suggested that we can ignore them here in the Rocky MOuntain West where they are not a big problem compared to all the issues outlined above. My point, which I seemed to have failed to make clear enough, is that we all need to stick and work together on all these issues. Eastern hunters in my experience essentially ignore western problems with public lands hunting areas being lost to the ATV invasion, haphazard energy development, and private land access issues, and I've often been accused of being some sort of radical environmentalist for even mentioning this stuff. Got so bad on the stickbow site that I quit going there. That's what frustrates me and I guess I was making a plea for understanding and support from our eastern brother and sisters. Restated, what we really need is for easterners to join our efforts to save our public lands wildlife habitat and hunting ops, and for westerners to pay more attention to anti problems outside our region. We now seem to be split. I've never been able to comprehend why so many hunters seem to think conservation is a dirty word. I mean, if we want to hunt we have to have game. If we want game, we have to have habitat. This is why I'm such a big supporting of Backcountry Hunters and Anglers www.backcountryhunters.org, (http://www.backcountryhunters.org,) which by the way has members in 47 states, not just the West. Trad bowhunters are our largest membership segment and I'd love to see all of us join. Thanks, dave
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You bring up some good points Dave.I notice that you are in Durango.From what I hear you are at ground zero of the influx.Isn't there a book,The Good Neighbor Guidebook for Colorado,written by some folks in your city? Heckofanote when you have to write instructions for living somewhere...
Habitat equals game and that is a fact.Hunting also benifits the habitat as it will maintain the balance.If it is done right...
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Paul -- So true, I fear, though I've not seen that one yet. This town, and the "so cool" West, is just booming with wannabee writers who will sell their souls to the for publication and ego gratification. "The Idiot's Guide to All the Last BEst Undiscovered Secret Places in the West!" is sure to get you a book contract! None of them are traditional bowhunters. Selah ... dave
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Dave,
I will certainly join the backcountry and hunters and anglers and push membership among my compadres. especially my Montana Bowhunter Amigos!! Lets fight the good fight. PS. I found a skull and antlers of a 383" bull on the ranch I hunt in Montana. He apparantly had been poached!!
Peace out brutha, Peter
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David Petersen, you would make a great Prez. too bad you don't want the job! I understand, and I love you though!!
your "disciple" Alex.B
PS: my 1 cent about suburban sprawl stated in this discussion: Bad, but it happens, like Manifest destiny happened :mad: . and it is a Free country!! people moving from California and New-Jersey to Montana, Montana to Iowa, Colorado to Michigan, etc...AS we wish, no Soviet roadblocks
no problem. Some post "no hunting" signs,which in my book is OK, since it will keep Team Realtree and ATV's out of Natural lands, and some put "no hunting unless you got cash" signs, which in my book is immoral/obscene and ANTI.... wildlife
Peace, out
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I have come to this thread rather late, but I still have something relevant to say about the topic...
There is an old poem, made "famous" during the Nazi Germany era, teling how one person did not worry about what the Nazis were doing with/to his neighbours -- because it did not directly affect him. At the end of the poem, the person laments that nobody stepped up to speak out against the abuses heaped upon him by the Nazis...because there was nobody left to speak out.
Do not become that person in the poem by not speaking out against the anti-hunting people, no matter where they may be. Today it is NJ, Illinois and other states which are in the "cross-hairs" of the anti-hunting people -- tomorrow it may well be YOUR state. Hunting and gun-ownership are no longer "rights" -- they have become a PRIVILEGES. Don't allow "them" to take them away from you. Remember: "United We Stand, Divided We Fall".
This message brought to you by a law-abiding (to the best of my ability, anyway), Liberal, Pro-hunting, Pro-gun Ownership, Personal-Rights loving, ex-Military (USAF), Democracy-practicing (I VOTE, do you?) Long Haired Freak. Yeah, politicians all lie -- but you have to learn to hear what is being said, instead of just what you want to hear, if you want to catch 'em in their lies.
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Dave,
I don't see how your gripe has much to do with the government. It seems more of a gripe against free market, private property, and the citizens freedom of movement. From what I have heard in regards to ATV use a large segment of that is really law enforcement as there are tracts of land that do not allow their useage that are being violated. It also seems that some states are trying to address the public access issues by negotiating agreements with landowners for access rights.
I understand your sentiment though. I grew up going to a section of beach on the Carolina coast that was almost wild. There were no paved roads, wild horses, and few people. We could camp on the beach, fish with nets, and just enjoy ourselves. Each year the roads moved closer and closer. Advertisements for lots appeared in northern magazines and people with large money started buying property and building multi-million dollar summer homes. Traffic increased and you were no longer the only one on the beach for 1/4 mile. Speed limits were imposed, a sheriff started patroling, no camping, no fires, etc. We ended up selling the place and I'm sad my children will never know a beach with that kind of undevelopement. I don't begrudge the people for developing there, I mean my parents did it, just 30 years earlier. It's probably much the same way the mountain man view the settlers, and the settlers viewed the immigrants, and so on down to today. We don't like change. But it will continue to change unless economic depression drives people back to job centered cities or a shift in peoples ideals of what is desireable.
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If anyone thinks that it's a mere coincidence the American love of personal freedom arouse amidst a great wildness they need to think again. The wildness of our land and the wildness in our hearts are symbiotic. I've had the good fortune to live in the Allegheny National Forest (where I was born)most of my life. The Forest Service recently issued its recomendations for a new ANF forest plan--the most environmentally friendly option involves opening 60% of the forest to clear cutting, drilling 12,000 new oil wells and setting aside only 5% for wilderness protection. Meanwhile the hunters refuse to retake their natural role of leadership in the environmental movement because they're afraid they'll have to ally themselves with someone they disagree with on gay marriage, abortion, or health care. We need to forget the liberal/conservative horse pucky our politicians and the media have spoon fed us and stand up for the wildness of our land and we need to get radical about it.
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Originally posted by Reg Darling:
Meanwhile the hunters refuse to retake their natural role of leadership in the environmental movement because they're afraid they'll have to ally themselves with someone they disagree with on gay marriage, abortion, or health care. We need to forget the liberal/conservative horse pucky our politicians and the media have spoon fed us and stand up for the wildness of our land and we need to get radical about it.
Geez Reg, you hit the nail on the head again! It's like you're reading my mind.
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Even my dear old Platte River Valley in eastern Nebraska is feeling the pinch of real estate (over) development. City-dwellers keep buying up recreational ground on which to dig a sandpit, ring it with 20-30 houses so they can have a place to jet-ski, run ATVs, host parties, etc. Meanwhile, the critters get shafted and hunting ground either disappears or becomes nearly useless. In the last 10 years, the places I primarily hunt have gone from quiet little gardens of edens full of trees, weeds, marshes, etc. to golf courses, sandpits, housing developments, and ATV trails. I thought I could stay here until I died, but I'm thinking that may not be the case.
I don't know how much of this can be blamed on the current administration (I tend to give the benefit of doubt to a pro-2nd Amend. President), but there is little doubt in my mind that the net loss of hunting land and wildlife habitat across the U.S. will be a bigger enemy for the average hunter than PETA and their ilk.
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I agree that motorized vehicles on public land is a problem - a law enforcement problem. I also agree that states cater to outfitters too much, which is essence, is using the law to promote outfitter business. But in the interest of freedom, including economic freedom, what do you guys propose be done to stop the economic growth in your areas. Should it be illegal to sell the family ranch so your descendants can be financially secure or should you just not be allowed to sell it to some evil rich businessman? Maybe the state should just buy all available property but where will the government get the money especially in light of the fact that all that land will then be off the tax roles. Add to that the fact that if hunting ever gets outlawed it will be outlawed on public land first. I live in the south, and contrary to popular belief, there is a bunch of public land, state and federal, that offers very good hunting. Its funny though, usually what threads like this really mean is that my favorite spot, that I know well, and is within convenient driving distance, has now been discovered by others - so I will have to work harder, drive farther, spend a little more, to get better hunting. . . welcome to the real world! I don't mean to poke fun - well, yes I do, and I do think hunters should band together more to promote what we believe in. . but there is a real tone of anti-private property tone in the this thread for which the only alternative is decidedly anti-freedom, pro big government and that scares me more than than any anti-hunting groups.
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The number one way to stop development is for the population to stop growing. The more it grows the bigger the danger it poses to wild lands.
If the population is stabilized, no more land needs to be developed.
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bravedeer,
Man, Gene Wensel had an article in the PBS Magazine a number of years ago that hit that nail right on the head...long before the current illegal immigration issue became a political furor. There are a lot of good things about the U.S. which could be preserved if our population remained static. Of course the business world may not like that idea.
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Wary Buck,
I don't want to tackle illegal immigration. It's too complex an issue. Does it have something to do with population growth? Sure. I'm not sure we can blame those who come here and pick our food and do the crappy jobs most people no longer want to do.
I agree that the business world as well as the government don't want the population to remain static. Whenever we hear "grow the economy", in one way or another it means population growth :(
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Originally posted by Wary Buck:
bravedeer,
Man, Gene Wensel had an article in the PBS Magazine a number of years ago that hit that nail right on the head...long before the current illegal immigration issue became a political furor. There are a lot of good things about the U.S. which could be preserved if our population remained static. Of course the business world may not like that idea.
????? U need :help:
PS: Anyway, isn't this site about traditional Bowhunting only?
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Alex B...I don't understand your personal attack on me. At all.
And BraveDeer, I agree with you, I don't want to address illegal immigration either. As a teacher and coach I am in contact with a good number of these folks, and it is a very complex issue.
As I stated in my post (clearly I thought), Gene's article was way BEFORE the current furor on illegal immigration...in other words, that's NOT what I was talking about; I was trying to distance myself from the illegal immigration topic! I apparently didn't make that clear.
What I WAS addressing was BraveDeer's suggestion that if our population stopped growing, development would slow, and that our wildlife populations and habitat would reap the benefits. I agree wholeheartedly.
And, yes, Alex, that has a lot to do with traditional bowhunting.
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I agree with Wary Buck! Do you have a link to the article ?
Thanks!
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BraveDeer--
No link, sorry. I can't even remember how long ago it was printed (it's been a number of years)but I remember being very impressed at the time. My PBS mags are all at home in a stack next to a pile of TBM's dating back to the very first issue...
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Sorry guys , i am not shedding many tears for ya'll. M. Schuster pretty much nailed it...We complain about losing our hunting land but yet our neighbors and relatives are selling their "back 40 acres" to the Monsters of business. We need to Blame your brothers and neighbors and ourselves not big business and if your waitng on the government to"protect your sacred homeplace"...they want it too for low governmnet housing for the "other" people you wont help in your community......you know the ones that are too lazy to work... I had a friend's father sell his 2000 acre Hunting/farm because he was too old to hunt and he needed money for medical bills to try to have at least a better quality of life towards the end of the road.......priorities change...
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According to reaserch conducted by a couple universities respected in the field of population dynamics, in order for a culture to maintain itself, there must be a fertility rate of 2.11 children per family, with anything less the culture will decline.
Historically no culture has ever reversed a 1.9 or lower fertility rate- and at a rate of 1.3 it is impossible to reverse, which is what the US is at now(because it would take 80 to 100 years to correct itself and there is no economic model that can sustain a culture during that 80 to 100 year period while we strive to correct)
In other words, if two sets of parents each had one child there are half as many children as grandparants. if those children have a child than there are 1/4 as many grandchildren as grandparants. if only 1 million babies are born in 2006, its hard to have 2 million adults enter the workforce in 2026.
As the population shrinks so does the culture. In 2007 the fertility rate in france was 1.8
england 1.6 greece 1.3 germany 1.3 italy 1.2
spain 1.1
Across the entire european union of 31 countries, it's a mere 1.8 Historical reaserch tells us these numbers are impossible to reverse.
How can that be, you say? Our population is growing, right? Yes it is. Think. Think.
All this furor about "our population must remain static" or "zero population growth" is hocus pocus engendered by the same pseudo-intellectuals saddling us with stricter pollution controls- while not getting China, India, and others on board. They're the same people screaming "save the whales, kill the nukes", "I'm feeling it are you feeling it?" - in other words, we've allowed the zombies to lock themselves in the wheelhouse and they're steering the ship over the falls, folks.
The world's population is growing- but our culture is dying out. A bloodless revolution and morphing/overthrow of our form of government is nearly guaranteed- both in the US and Europe. So there you go.
Wrote a song about it- Like to hear it? Here it go!
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Very nice logic Ray.Makes sense of the senseless thought of "population control". On the original topic I too am really feeling the pinch of too many people in my duck hunting and steelhead fishing grounds,OOPS!! said mine!I hunt out of state for deer in ID,NV,COand OR not all every year just what I can draw I'm not rich but make it a priority because all of my favorite places have changed in some way either development or habitat or overrun with other people so I find it hard to make myself go as it makes me long for the good old days and this makes my kids suffer because if I don't go they don't go (oldest is 14)
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As stated above I hunt out of state and I have met many people and I must say the response of being from CA is quite interesting I live 20 miles from the OR border on the coast and I am farther removed mentally and politically from the typical californian than many OR residents I have known.My point is often people are misjudged and from that they misjudge if that makes sense.I have heard often the stories of L.A. snobs moving to a small town to get out of the city and then changing it to fit them which is like ...Ironically L.A. . In fact I live that one too!20 years ago the powers that be (city,countyand state) decided to "SAVE" my hometown by building a max-security prison here you may have heard of it Pelican Bay State Prison.This savior promised to hire many local workers which they eventually did ,and save our little slice of heaven.Well think about 1000 employees that want to move to a small town and blend in many became outdoorsmen .Always good for the big picture in a state where our numbers are on the decline but bad for my area in that they run 3 shifts a day and assorted days off so the fish and the ducks n our small marsh don't get a day off.Translation suddenly very bad outdoor experience.We all have the right to use the space but as it gets smaller you really can't blame the new guy because he probably got tired of his old places being overcrowded.Like I tell family and friends who tell me its changing everywhere,when I tell them I will soon be leaving here,whereever I go it will not be like the good old days for the locals there but it will be the start of the good old days for me and my family.Sorry for the long post and I hope if I move to your neck of the woods it doesn't run ya off I can promise you I don't want anything to run like what it has here so I promise not to change it.If I buy a big piece of land ajacent to public land stopping your access(only if I win the Lottery) the sign will read Private Property Access denied unless you show me your Trad Bow;)Bill
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This is exactly where fundamental rights and the concept of personal property butt heads.
Cane lost faith in the abundance of God's creation, defined space, plowed it and took root in one spot at the exclusion of others. Able trusted in that abundance and took solace in a life of subsistence hunting and gathering.
An individual laying claim to land and excluding you from hunting and gathering on it is essentially denying your right to exercise the facilities God endowed you with to chase game and feed yourself, i.e. be free.
I'm not advocating for the abolishing of private property, I'm simply saying that it creates a problem with regards to hunter/gatherer type pursuits.
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Cain and Abel - spelling is not my forte
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Well said ,possibly misspelled(who cares) but well said.Bill