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Main Boards => Hunting Legislation & Policies => Topic started by: Tim Fishell on July 21, 2007, 09:52:00 PM
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I am not sure about other states but if I had to guess they would be similar.
My dad and I were out stump shooting / scouting today on some state land here in Michigan. We got stopped by a Conservation Officer and he asked what we were doing and asked us if we knew there were no open hunting seasons at this time. We told him we were out stump shooting and he asked what that was. I explained it to him and he asked how he was supposed to know we were telling the truth and not out small game hunting. Well here in Michigan we have a few animals that are consider nucence animals and they have no season on them. Animals like Red Squirrels and Wood Chucks but you have to have a valid small game hunting licence for that yearto hunt them. So he asked if we had a valid hunting licence for small game and niether one of us did. He ran our names and we had no prior convictions so he just told us that he was going to let us go without a ticket but we had to purchase a small game licence with in the next 24 hours or he would be mailing us tickets.
So the moral of the story is, make sure here in Michigan you have a valid small game license if you are going to be stump shooting on public land. And in other states you might want to check your laws before going out. Just thought I would pass this along because it is something that I had not known before now.
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i thought it was innocent until proven guilty, guess i was wrong
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Good tip Tim! Thats one of them things I would have never thought about.
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Tim, congrats on winning the arras from Shawn!!
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you can use those new arras to shoot those"illegal", stumps
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I called the NJ Park Service to ask whether stump shooting was allowed in the state parks and forests. I had to describe what stump shooting was, they had no idea. "You mean you just walk around the woods and shoot at stumps, flowers, logs, etc??" It's ashame, isn't it?? The lost art of archery, I suppose. Anyway, I was told stump shooting was only legal during valid hunting seasons. Otherwise it fell into target practice (same as rifle!!) and was not allowed.
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In Wisconsin on public land it states that you're not allowed to target shoot. I haven't gotten a straight answer out of a warden if that refers to stump shooting or not. I just buy an archery licence (includes small game with a bow) and go hunting for varmits (possums, coyotes,) and if I happen to shoot a stump or two...
I did have one warden tell me that if I'm deer hunting I'm not allowed to carry a blunt tipped arrow in my quiver. The rules say deer hunting can only be done with broadheads. Anything else is in violation. I don't know who makes these rules sometimes.
Chris
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I did have one warden tell me that if I'm deer hunting I'm not allowed to carry a blunt tipped arrow in my quiver. The rules say deer hunting can only be done with broadheads. Anything else is in violation. I don't know who makes these rules sometimes.
Chris [/QB]
I would contact the WDNR and get that clarified, in writing. The laws says it's illegal to attempt to take a deer with anything other than a broadhead meeting certain requirements. It doesn't say you can't have a blunt arrow in your possession while deer hunting...you just can't shoot a deer with that blunt. I also carry a pockey knife when I deer hunt, but that doesn't mean I'm going to try to leap out of a tree and stab a deer with the thing.
Once you get that clarification in writing, I'd keep a copy in your back tag holder, just in case.
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Missouri has a similar situation. If you are out with a bow or any weapon you better have a license for small game on you or whatever season it is. And during certain seasons you better have the proper gear for that season olny as stated above. Even on private land. Accourding to what I have been kindly told the state of Missouri only recocnizes practice at "ranges" and shooting of any weapon anywhere else no matter what it is at is "hunting". The officer tod me he can't tell if I was shootin stumps and targets or just not havin much luck hunting. I have learned with conservation it is more like guilty till proven innocent in my expieriences. Guess that what happens when they spend most their time chasin people bendin and breakin the rules constantly.
Tom
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Yeah I guess I can understand where he is comming from and I am not mad about it in any way. I just didnt know that I had to have a valid small game license when I was out stump shooting in the middle of the summer. But he was cool about it and just told us to get one within the time limit which I was going to get one anyways so he just sped up the process.
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Ya all of the ones I have dealt with have always been cool and understanding after you talk and they get the sense that you are a good honest person but when they approach it just seems most the time you are automaticly guilty. It is probably one of the hardest enforcment jobs. You are usually alone and you can safely assume everyone you encounter is armed. So they do have it tuff.
In Missouri you can buy your small game and fishing as one license so that is what i do every year just to be safe.
Tom
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Originally posted by bm22:
i thought it was innocent until proven guilty, guess i was wrong
Welcome to the "new" Amerika. :(
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Unfortunately, legitimate sportsmen pay for the sins of others. I guess it falls on us to make sure we are well versed on the rules of our sport of choice.
Happy Stumpin :thumbsup:
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Did you get your license tonight Tim,,If you need to get out of the poky tomorrow I'll strap my bronco to the gate and tear it down..Kinda like they did in the old west,,except my bronco needs gas,not hay and with gas prices like they are it'll be 3.50 a gallon,Congrats on the arrows,JB
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I very recently had a concern over legal equipment in the field myself so I asked the KDFWL here in KY what the law says concerning broadheads, blunts etc. The following is my question and the response from the department. Hope this may help anyone with concerns over legal equipment in Kentucky.
QUESTION:
"I understand that deer must be shot with broadhead arrows at least 7/8" wide. However, is it legal to have an arrow in your quiver with a judo or blunt for practice shots, stump shooting etc. during deer season? Also, is it legal to harvest small game, with blunts or judo point or do the broadhead rules apply to all game?"
RESPONSE:
"It would be legal to have the judo and blunt in possession while hunting deer for use on small game where seasons overlap. Blunts or field points may be carried for practice. Deer must be taken with a 7/8 in. broadhead."
Major Randy Hedges
Assistant Director
Division of Law Enforcement
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Yeah Jason my dad and I ran to the store and picked up our licenses. I am sure the $15 license was cheaper that the ticket would have been. LIke I said no big deal I was going to buy one before the season started anyways.
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I really have'nt thought about this but luckilly Rabbit and Coyote season are open year round here. The way the hunting seasons run into Jan. seems I always have a hunting licsense anyhow.
So far I have'nt been stopped while at the lake shooting, but i'll keep this in mind. Thanks for the heads up. bretto
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I've often wondered the same thing about stump shooting on public land in Arkansas. Walking around toting a bow in the off season sure makes a person suspicious.
Bob
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Jason,
I've looked through the regulations and it doesn't specify that you can't carry a blunt tip and broadhead. The small game seasons and deer seasons overlap and I'll often take after squirrels if the deer hunting isn't very hot.
At the shop I used to run we had a warden that came in on a regular basis. I mentioned that I hunt as stated above and he asked me what I use for squirrel. I replied "Judos and blunts". That's when he jumped all over me about what I was doing is illegal and if I get caught I'll get a fine. I brought up that it doesn't say you can't have blunts and broadheads. His reply was that you have to separate hunting for the two species, either small game or deer.
Trouble is the rule books are written ambiguously and many rules are subject to interpretation. Up north in another area I hunt I questioned a different warden about this same topic and was told that it was completely legal and he encouraged me to bring along extra arrows for the small game.
As I understand it each warden is given jurisdiction over a set area and due to the ambiguity what is ok in on wardens area may not be in another. But, better safe than sorry. I'll send an email into the DNR and see what I get for a response.
Chris
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Yes it is a sad fact that many DNRs have become a bunch of worthless txxxs. Here in SC stump shooting is illegal, as it is considered target shooting which is illegal. "The SC DNR also supports crossbows. Another place you have to hunt from tree stands only "for safety reasons, so the projectile can't hit another person!! These are the people who monitor hunting and don't have a clue.
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If you stop and think about it , that just aint fair! or am I missing something>????
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Here's a thought,what about all the bow shoots held on state land during the off season,like Whittinghams in NJ.I know,don't even go there with this subject. Maybe they get special sanction from the state.
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TSHOOTER glad we live in Ky huw about you?
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Pretty much the same in NH. I have never talked to a CO about it but it seems to be common knowledge here that if you are in the woods with a bow and arrow you had better have a hunting license that covers anytihing in season. I suppose it would be similar to being in a boat with fishing gear...my guess would be that you were, had been or are intending on fishing.
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Anytime you plan to carry a weapon on public land you should check the regs first wether its for hunting,practice or protection.
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Some time ago,I posted about a similar experience in Pa.We were on state forest land and ran into a DNCR officer that told us we couldn't stump shoot.He was quite adamant about it and said he'd arrest us if we did.
He claimed it was target shooting and that was illegal on state forest land.I tried to explain,but he didn't want to hear any of it.
I guess a way around that would be to carry a hunting license and say your hunting coyotes.If your hunting chucks in Pa. you have to wear an orange hat.
After that experience we looked into it a little further and found that it's legal to stump shoot on state game lands but not on state forest,at least according to the DNCR.
What gets me is,Reg Darling,who sometimes writes for TBM,wrote several articles about stumpin in the Allegheny National Forest and apparently it's OK with his local DNCR officers.
Just doesn't seem to be any consistentsy.Still go stumpin,year round.
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Some of the wardens just like to be A$$'s. If he said how do I know you are not small game hunting while stump shooting. So he made you go get a licens, next time he probably will say how do I know you'r not deer hunting out of season. Some of these wardens need to use commin sence some times. Yes if there is no target practice on state ground I would buy a licens and say I'm rabbit hunting if the season is open.
As for the blunt in your quiver I see both sides of this. What would happen if you grabbed the wrong arrow with the blunt and shoot at a deer. I then the saver theing is to carry a blunt in you pocket, and change out the head if you want to stump shoot, or take a pratice shot.
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A word about "innocent until proven guilty": A United States game warden may legally search a home or premises without warrant, seeking evidence of illegal possession of game. I don't know what procedures must be followed for a warrantless search. United States game wardens have this power. I don't know whether any or all state game wardens do.
This kind've wreaks havoc with the Fourth Amendment of the United States Constitution.
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I never do any stumpin or huntin on public land. But I will keep this stuff in mind if I ever do. Thanks Tim
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Anytime your stumping on public land it's a good idea to have a current license. Your gonna buy one anyway so no big deal.
Here in Ohio, you cannot target practice on public land. Stumping is open to interpretation as to whether or not it's "target practice". In any event, you're probably not going to have any problem here beyond the possibility of being told to stop.
One thing to remember, the sad truth is during the summer months, our public lands are often occupied by marijuana growers and meth manufacturers. Our DNR officers today face more than just hunting and fishing violations and so do we while we're out wandering around. I wouldn't find it unusual for an enforcement officer to be suspicious of someone in the woods with a bow during the summer. In most cases, courteous behavior and an explanation will suffice.
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Years ago one november, my wife and I finished a mountain bike ride in Minnewaska St. park in NY, she noticed some large pine trees about 25 yds out of the parking lot, so she decided to "harvest" some large pine cones that fell to make a christmas wreath, wouldn't ya know it 10 minutes into our collection a conservation office confronts us and says we can't take the cones out of the woods (we had about 8), "we had to leave the woods the way it was"
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The laws differ from state to state. In Pa. you can pick fruit and mushrooms, but you can't take anything like trees or shrubs. That makes sense to me. Pinecones should be no different than any mast dropped by trees. I'll have to check into Pa. laws.
I always carry my hunting license when stump shooting. I can't help that I keep missing those crows and coyotes in front of those stumps.
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In Pa. a small game hunter must wear orange, but it is not required while hunting deer during early archery season. So if I'm deer hunting and not wearing orange and a grouse walks under my stand do I have to put on my orange before I shoot it? Crazy :knothead:
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I find the officer's behavior offensive. How does he know if you're shooting animals or not? Because you told him you weren't and you didn't have any carcasses in your possession!
It's state land. You pay to use it with your taxes. Stump shoot.
Let him mail you the tickets and fight them in court.
TOMANO
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Here, the law reads: "Taking or attempting to take" if You weren't seen shooting at anything live, you wouldn't be "Attempting"
Fortunately, the CO in my district shoots a Hill longbow, and bought a recurve for his young son.
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In Virginia you are free to stump on private land since groundhog and coyote are open year round, but they are only open year round on private land.
Public lands are a different story.
You would be fine September 1 - Mar 10. At least one game animal is open season and hunting groundhogs and coyote are specifically allowed during these dates.
Mar 11 - August 31 you're out of luck stump shooting on public lands. The law specifically prohibits carrying a bow or gun on public lands unless it's some open hunting season: (see below)
Regulations Specific to National Forest and Game Department Lands
It shall be unlawful to have in possession a bow or gun which is not unloaded and cased or dismantled on all National Forest lands statewide, or on Department-owned lands and on lands managed by the Department under cooperative agreement in counties west of the Blue Ridge Mountains except during the period when it is lawful to take bear, deer, grouse, pheasant, quail, rabbit, raccoon, squirrel, turkey or waterfowl on these lands; and on Department-owned lands and on lands managed by the Department under cooperative agreement in counties east of the Blue Ridge Mountains except during the period when it is lawful to take bear, deer, grouse, pheasant, quail, rabbit, raccoon, squirrel, turkey, waterfowl or migratory game birds on these lands.
Except as provided by special concealed handgun permit .......
The word "possession" shall include, but not be limited to, having any bow or firearm in or on one's person, vehicle or conveyance.
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Hi Tim,
Technically, it's illegal to 'target' shoot on Michigan state land, period. So the only way to stump shoot, legally, on state land is to supposedly be afield hunting, with a valid hunting license. (It's amazing how often I miss those invisible red squirrels and hit stumps ;) The other catch is that you need to wear blaze orange when small game hunting (stump shooting), or you could be in violation.
Here's what it says in the hunting guide:
License Requirement:
Possession of Firearms and Bows and Arrows:
A person taking or attempting to take game and in possession of a firearm, slingshot or bow and arrow must have the appropriate hunting license with them and must produce the license upon the request of a conservation officer or other law enforcement officer.
A hunting license is not required when target practicing or sighting-in a firearm at an identifiable, artificially constructed target, and there is no attempt to take game. A hunting license is not required for the carrying of a pistol for personal protection by a camper, hiker or person engaged in other recreational
activities if there is no attempt to take game.
State Parks and Recreation Areas:
All state parks and recreation areas are closed to hunting from April 1 through Sept. 14, except in areas designated open during the early Canada goose season and spring wild turkey season.
It is illegal to target shoot in a state park or recreation area, except on a designated shooting range at Bald Mountain, Island Lake, Ortonville and Pontiac Lake Recreation Areas.
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Correction on Ohio, the new regs specifically mention firearms possession and practice as prohibited. No mention of bows at all.
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Tim...come on over and you can kill all of my stumps...I'll just say that you are my portable stump grinder.!
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I guess we need to get an official - in writing -interpretaion here in PA....
I've been told that you are not permitted to rove, practice or shoot at any random objects on public property. Practice had to be on purpose built artificial targets. Furthermore, you must use a head of "cuting edge design" for both big and small game. Judos and blunts and firld points were not allowed to be in your posession while hunting. Any time there was a season overlap (such as the archery and early small game) you had to wear the orange if you were to be leagal for both....Otherwise you had to "Choose what you were hunting"..... More lack of common sense and looking for a one size fits all governmental solution.
All of this was verbal through a phone call probably 15 years ago... I may be totally wrong, but that's what I was told. I don't take any practice shots, and carry only broad heads when hunting. I'll keep an old aluminum with a cheap broadhead in my quiver just in case I want to harvest small game or shut up that annoying squirrel.
The hoops ya gotta jump through to hunt the kings deer....
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Boy you guys back on the east coast got it rough in the regulations department. i haven't even seen a game officer in 10 or 12 years in Oregon....No I'm wrong....we did have a little encounter a few years back. we had a late season cow elk tag down on the coast in an area we hadn't hunted before. We we driving around scouting the area, when we spotted some elk on the edge of a clear cut about 200 yards away. there were two bulls out there we could see moving their heads around. One of them had a nice rack too! So we pulled into a turn out, grabbed our bows and back packs, and were just heading towards the woods....When a white pick up pulled up right above us on a spur road. this guy rolled down his window and started yelling at us....boy i was sorely tempted to knock an arrow right then and there....this guy just ruined our chance on these elk.....then he got out of the truck and i saw his badge and side arm....yuppers! Smokey bear playing game warden in an unmarked truck... Come to find out....these were those fancy decoys you hear about. these things had real elk hides on them and heads that moved. I'll bet you couldn't tell the difference in a rifle scope at 200 yards either.....Well this guy checked our tags and told us to get out of the area. i guess there was a late rifle hunt in that area going on. and he was writing tickets for guys stopping and shooting off the road. i thought to myself that this was entrapment if i ever saw it....i told my hunting buddy we should circle around through the timber and have us some 3D practice....but we decided that probably wouldn't be too healthy. besides....that smokey bear didn't have much of a sense of humor anyway.....
other than that I've never even had my licence checked....
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man, am i glad i live up here!!!! hardly ever see a warden, and they got better things to do then check "stump tags".
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Steve, thanks for the invite. I will keep that in mind although it would cost me a fourtune in gas to run to your house everytime I want to shoot. Like I said I enjoy scouting and stumping at the same time as I am sure a lot of you guys do as well. I will just purchase my small game tag and go about my business until I am told otherwise from the next CO I run into.
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The state game land I stump shoot on has signs that say no target shooting or, "plinking" with fire arms or bows. Since Coyote season is open every day and no orange required, that's what I say I'm doing. Never been questione about two different types of heads.
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Tim, it's a good thing you bought your tag because I have seen Jason's truck and I don't think it could pull the bars out of the window anyway :biglaugh:
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In Missouri.....
Never mind. This isn't the place to go off.
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Tim, I asked the DNR about stump shooting a couple months ago and it is absolutely not allowed on State land. I asked for distinctions between State Parks, State Recreation Areas, and just plain old State-owned land and they couldn't find any. If you're stump shooting on state land, have a hunting license and tell them you're hunting, not stump shooting. You also need to be careful about saying you're hunting, as some State land is posted no hunting for most of the spring and summer. I know this pretty much sucks as it's difficult to find enough land to stump shoot on, except for state land, but there it is. You just can't do it. One more harmless, fun activity legislated against!!
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Chris (Str8shooter) In Wisconsin you are allowed to carry 35 different weapons at the same time if you so choose. I can legally carry a .22 handgun and rifle and a bow and tell the warden I am deer hunting and also squirrel hunting. I guess if I want a shotgun too for grouse...so be it. You can only shoot the deer with legal equipment, including legal broadheads.
Chuck
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Jerry,
Do you need a furtaker license for yotes? I gave up trapping\\furtaking years back (what was it, mid 1980's?) when they mandated classes and a seperate license. Besides the fur prices really sucked then - dunno what they are now.
I support the WCO's, and can understand some of the reasoning, but man do the laws need simplified and then rewritten with a healthy dose of common sense - no wait - Most PA politicians and all liberals seem to lack common sense...
Chuck, NO WAY that would fly in PA.... Would require the use of judgement and common sense..... we have to choose if we're hunting the kings squirrels, the kings turkeys, or the kings deer.....
At least a bow is legal for pretty much everything as long as you have a broadhead on the end of yer stick....
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Naphtali.
No law enforcement officer in the US can make a warrantless search that I am aware of, even the Conservation wardens. They CAN enter your private land without a warrant, but cannot come into your home for a search without a warrant.
ChuckC
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AnointedArcher
Trad Gang Member
Member # 6746
posted July 23, 2007 03:14 PM
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Tim, it's a good thing you bought your tag because I have seen Jason's truck and I don't think it could pull the bars out of the window anyway
ALRIGHT THIS IS GONE WAY TO FAR NOW,,My truck aint too bad,,a little rusty but kinda trusty,,I think it could pull some bars out,,Maybe,,,,It says bronco on it DHHAAAA,,But it does have that awfull blue oval on it,,Should've never left my GM<
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ChuckC are you sure about that? I've heard the same thing. My reasoning would be that "probable cause" is interpeted far more leniently for game law violations.
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In Missouri a game warden with "probable cause" can do a search of your property including your home and vehicle without a warrent. Just as any law enforcement officer can search your car without permission if there is a plain sight violation giving them "probible cause". "Probable cause" can be any simple thing they can find. While on that subject they can also seize your property and any property they believe was used to commit the violation from the truck to the pocket knife. I had a goodie two shoe animal lover neighbor that called the CO on me last deer season stating I must have illegally taken the deer since I didn't get home till midnight with it. Truth to it was I didn't harvest the animal till just at dark and then a half hour wait to trail it led to a 2 hr drag and then a 2 hour drive around and brag to my buddies. Anyway when he showed up he caught me on a "wantingly wasting commonly edible portions of meat" violation because I didn't take all the meat I could from the neck and part of the ribs. After that "probable cause" he entered my house took all guns, bows, racks, turkey feathers anything related to hunting or fishing to his truck and searched my freezer. Then after going thru each story of each harvest and verifing that I had tagged it properly in their computer each thing was returned to me. At the end of a very long few hours turns out I didn't do anything wrong after all.
In Missouri you also have to decide what you are hunting as you can only have one weapon in your possesion. And "taret shooting" with any weapon on public land has to be on a "range". But hunting is allowed.
Tom
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I had a warden try that with me in Calif. several years ago, and you just have to call their bluff, I did. I told him to either write me a ticket or leave me alone, he left me alone.
Bob
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You can not stump shoot on public land here either unless it is during hunting season and you have a hunting license.
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i dont care what they say, im still a youth so they ain gonna say anything to me. if they do oh well, work harder to avoiid them!
remember: its only illegal if you get caught!
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Originally posted by ChuckC:
Naphtali.
No law enforcement officer in the US can make a warrantless search that I am aware of, even the Conservation wardens. They CAN enter your private land without a warrant, but cannot come into your home for a search without a warrant.
ChuckC
They'd be looking down the wrong end of a 12 guauge side by side if they tried that around here....i'c tell em to go get a warrant, or piss up a rope....
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Originally posted by TRADITIONAL ONLY:
i don't care what they say, im still a youth so they ain gonna say anything to me. if they do oh well, work harder to avoiid them!
remember: its only illegal if you get caught!
Bad attitude son....better regroup...this is a sport we are all proud of here. if you break the rules, you are cheating....that is what they call unsportsmanlike conduct....bad dog! No gravy....
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whoa!!!!!!!!!
A law enforcement officer CAN search your house without a warrant in a few circumstances!!
One is in hot pursuit. If an officer is chasing a criminal and he runs into a house- the officer does not have to have a warrant to enter the house and effect the arrest- and any illegal thing he might see in the process: is legal evidence.
In the case of an escaped convict; or lost child; it can fall under hot pursuit.
If you run into your house or garage - your domicile- and are being pursuited: don't think you can shoot it out because the officer doesn't have a warrant!!
I once as a deputy sheriff; I approached a man carrying his 3 month old baby by its wrist- swinging it around; in an argument with his wife.
I showed up and he took off with me in pursuit; and I chased him into someone elses house- a total stranger!
My concern was for the little girl; and the home owner agreed to take the girl at first opprotunity and run. I got the guy to hand her the child: and well the lady took off with the kid; and I took off out the door with an unconcious suspect.
He went to jail for assault with intent to committ great bodily harm; he pulled a knife on me outside the home and my partner took him down; and he ended up with a host of charges.
If anyone had gotten in the way of this deputy while chasing that guy- he would have met my attention- and the ground.
The little girl had a broken humerous;dislocated shoulder etc- but lived.
And the lady homeowner who grabbed that girl to safety....well her house full of marijuana plants - I turned my back on- but that was my decision!!!
So- you see how 'hot pursuit' is an exception.
So is 'allowing the vampire in'. If you tell the officer he can search- well you forfeit your right not to be searched; as its reasonable to search with permission.
Thing you all need to look up and find out is about the officers authority.
By that I mean is the officer a sworn officer of the law; or just an officer.
Used to be; that game violations were rules; not criminal acts. So; officers that enforced them did not need to be certified police officers. And with that lack of certification; they did a lot of searchs that were and continue to be illegal without consent; probable cause; or a witnessed act by the officer.
Now; most 'conservation officers' or 'fish and game officers' are certified police officers; as values were put on game animals; and game violations became crimes.
As a certified officer; the officer MUST obey his oath; which is to respect and defend the constitution--- which includes searches!!!
A fish and game officer used to be legal searching your car; but now; they need probable cause; or a warrant; or permission.
If they say they will arrest you if you don't let them search- hey- let them arrest you. All evidence with a GOOD LAWYER will be "fruit of the poisonous tree"; and not allowable in court.
There are officers here that issue tickets - knowing people will not fight the ticket...even though the person is not guilty... and the officers think it is funny: that they plead guilty !
WE are all in a transition stage on the recognition of this; we can see how one officer says you need a license to shoot a bow on public land; and another says you don't.
I bet the officer that is wrong would not accept YOUR argument of 'ignorance of the law'.
You should not accept his or her 'ignorance of the law' either.
We need fish and game officers; but too too often; these officers do not know the law; are fish and game officers because they cannot get a regular 'cop job'; and are working to that end- to get a 'real' cop job; and they will take prisoners to do it.
Check your laws; and know if your in the right or wrong. Don't fight the officer if he or she is wrong; but do make sure the situation is resolved to your satisfaction -legally!!!!
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Your car is not your house. That has been established in law over the years. If there is evidence in plain view, that can be used as probable cause TOWARD a search warrant. As I recall, the only way that a law enforcement officer can legally enter your home without your permission is if he is in HOT PURSUIT of a felon that committed a serious crime that he witnessed, that means.... I am chasing you, you run into your home, and I run in after you with intend to arrest. This typically does not include taking a deer out of season, but rather a murder or some such.
We do still have some rights here in the USA, but it is our job to know what they are.
TRAD ONLY. Illegal is illegal. Has nothing to do with getting caught. Sounds like you are on your way to a troubled life if you really think that way. No, it is not "cool".
ChuckC
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DTala is right.
ibowhunt, I don't know which officer fed you that line, but I talk to Conservation guys on a fairly regular basis and if what you are sayign was the whole story then someone needs to be fired.
I support the MDC folks right up to the point that they start violating the law.
TO, that response is an invitation to be run through the mill. I hope your folks get a chance to see that post.
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when I said search; I meant for the suspect - not areas that are not consistant: with where the suspect could be. Like you could look in a closet for the person; but not in a shoe box.
But once in a house legally; objects in plain view: are subject to seizure and use as evidence.
And then as mentioned the objects could be used as probable cause for a warrant to search further.
Fire Marshalls looking at homes for safety purposes can report illegal activity or evidence; and a warrant can be issued on that- but the police cannot ask a fire marshall to inspect a home to help them establish cause for a warrant.
This thread started about stump shooting; and I really wonder if 'firearm' laws are being applied to bows; (which are not firearms) in some cases? I can see how clearly some states do say bows; but other states and some officers I have met do not- did not- understand the difference.
I really cannot understand why a person cannot walk the woods and shoot blunts at stumps. Falls under 'liberty' to me. Here in Idaho; I buy a combination fishing and hunting license within the first few days of the year; as there is a bird season open into January. And steelhead are heading my way.
I have never had to explain why I had my bow with me; but certainly shooting mice would seem legal - an not require a license.
When I lived in Michigan; coyote season was always open; as was skunk; and opposum; so with a hunting license your always hunting something; at least in theory.
I cannot imagine in a world with 12 million illegal aliens; and crime so rampant that it dangerous to walk the streets of most cities at night....that some yahoo- would take time out of those efforts to give a person shooting stumps in the woods a hard time.
sounds like officers that should only have one bullet; and that should be in their shirt pocket........
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Brian....I think I have to agree with you on that one.....
Anyway.....without getting into any more depth's than we did here.....please, so you don't accidentally ge into trouble...check with your local law enforcers FIRST so you do this the right way.
Still can't believe we can get in trouble for stump shootin !
ChuckC
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me either! I wonder if its OK to throw rocks? geesh.........
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I the way I see it is that if I purchase a license then I have paid to use the public lands. If I have my bow with me and have no game animals then I am not hunting, and I have the liberty to carry my bow. I guess the point of all of this is that we hunters and fishermen need to remind the DNRs who they WORK for.
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Brian Krebs... Hats off to you. You have my respect, as do all peace officers.
Each and every one of us MUST know our rights, as free Americans. We owe this to ourselves, our neighbors, veterans, soldiers, and our peace officers. To know your rights is to respect and value them.
They are vanishing before our very eyes.
Do not be afraid to speak out.
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Originally posted by Gordy:
Originally posted by bm22:
i thought it was innocent until proven guilty, guess i was wrong
Welcome to the "new" Amerika. :( [/b]
If you own more than one motor vehicle, only one of which is drivable, and you are pulled over for not having up-to-date tabs on the one you happen to be driving -- yet you distinctly remember renewing those tabs, how do you prove that you were not attempting to avoid paying the necessary tax, instead of simply renewing the wrong tabs by mistake (assume they are all due around the same time)? Answer: You don't, because it is impossible to prove any such thing. I know, because it happened to me.
It's the same with stump-shooting on Public Land: The game-warden has absolutely no proof that you are not out there to shoot animals, and there is no way for you to prove otherwise.
I don't agree 100% with many laws, but we do have to obey them.
"The Ethical man knows what is Right -- but the Moral man will DO what is Right."
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Originally posted by TRADITIONAL ONLY:
i dont care what they say, im still a youth so they ain gonna say anything to me. if they do oh well, work harder to avoiid them!
remember: its only illegal if you get caught!
To you I must say: "It is illegal to murder your entire family only if I am caught". Now, do you still think that all is legal as long as you don't get caught?
The law is the law -- whether you want it to be or not. If you don't like a law, then work to have it either changed or repealed -- and if you do not wish live within the law, you have the priviledge of moving to where that law does not exist.
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Originally posted by Kirkll:
Originally posted by ChuckC:
Naphtali.
No law enforcement officer in the US can make a warrantless search that I am aware of, even the Conservation wardens. They CAN enter your private land without a warrant, but cannot come into your home for a search without a warrant.
ChuckC
They'd be looking down the wrong end of a 12 guauge side by side if they tried that around here....i'c tell em to go get a warrant, or piss up a rope.... [/b]
Good way to get yourself killed, or at the very least get a one-way ticket to prison for threatening a Law-Enforcement Officer with Bodily Harm (usually a FELONY offense), Kirkll. It is always best to respond with politeness and then hire a really good lawyer. "You will catch more flies with honey than with vinegar."
I don't know of ANY cop who will respond kindly to having a gun shoved in the face -- or being told to "piss up a rope".
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I have been following this thread with interest and since I stump shoot I decided to do some checking. It is absolutely legal according to KDFWR to stump on public land unless an area is posted otherwise such as around hiking trails. Also since coyote is open year round I could even carry broadheads. If a misguided warden wanted to ticket me I can deal with that with the help of an attorney.
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I too have been following this thread. One of my posts was removed. Too much opinion I guess. I can live with that.
A conservation officer not knowing or understanding the laws in his/her particular state is totally unnacceptable. We should know the laws, and must know the laws where we live. We
should never have to entertain the thought that there is a need to use an attorney to pursue a legal activity that we love to do.
Tim Fishell said no ticket was issued. Good job on the part of that C.O..
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Here in PA I stump shoot a lot--a bow is simply part of my hiking equipment (for multiple reason that would require an essay. I've encountered wardens several times and they've always reacted with friendly interest (they don't see many longbows) and have agreed that it's the best practice for hunting. These encounters have all been on national forest or state game land. State parks and state forests have their own rules. A hike I enjoy is from a place on national forest land, across State Game Land 29, and into Chapman Dam State Park. When I cross into the state park I unstring my bow and slip it into a soft case because the state park has rules about weapons and I don't want to put anyone on the spot with a judgment call regardless of who would "win" in the end and I don't want to scare anyone out for walk who dosen't live in the same kind of world I do.
Having said all that, if I'm in the woods with a weapon, I wear my hunting license.
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Thanks guys for all of your comments and thoughts on this. I did not post this to stir contraversy or place any blame on the part of the C.O. I mainly wanted to post this to let the people that do stump shoot make sure they know thier local laws and regulations. I did not know and I thanked the C.O. for handling the situation like he did because I didnt know. I should have known before stump shooting and that is the reason for my post. Thanks again guys.
Tim
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I never knew stump shooting was illegal in Jersey until last year. I was waiting for my hunting partner to finish work at his camp and I decided to hit the State land for some shooting.
I was gone an hour, came back, put the bow in my truck along with my backquiver when the Conservation Officer drove by. He never stopped but when I told my hunting buddy I was out shooting, he stated I was lucky not to get stopped.
Seemed the Officer was visiting the camp and according to my buddy, I could have been written up. I love Jersey hunting but they need some new blood there to start thinning out the black bear problems and let some trad guys enjoy the woods with some Judos.
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I've seen no comments on Pittmann-Robertson with regard to national forest land, which is NOT owned by the states. There, all legal recreational uses are, by law, permitted. I'd like to see a few thoughts on that. As an aside, here in CA I carry one of my bows frequently, stumping, but also shooting cans and plastic, which I "harvest" and put in a bag for later disposal. There's no limit on cans, by the way. My feeling is, if there was ever a problem, whoever had it would look really stupid in court, which is exactly where I'd take them.
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After reading all of these I think we need to remind our DNRs that we are their CUSTOMERS and we are not happy with the service they are providing us. A good way to shake them up is to write an email/letter to your governor and state government officials. Remember your are their customers, act as such, their job is to provide you a service. My days of showing respect to any elected official are over, 1) they cost too much, "taxes" 2) they must earn my respect. Just my two cents.