Post by: Scott J. Williams on November 26, 2007, 09:28:00 AM
One proposal would be for the applicants to wave all rights to firearms hunting for big and small game for the year. They would in turn be provided with a "traditional archers" License that would be good for all hunting for that year.
Along with this would be the promise to provide a longer season, with some hunting being provided in selected areas, without the competition of compound bows, in-line muzzle loaders, or hig powered rifles. The author also stated that traditional bowhunters might be willing to pay a little more for this opportunity.
The restrictions would be, wooden bows, composite, self bows, and longbows of each design, no metal risers, no aluminum or carbon arrows, wood being the only accepted projectile.
While I shoot aluminum arrows and carbon most of the time, I personally would not have a problem this restriction.
The second plan being floated about is a "primitive weapons season" in this season, you would be allowed to use bows with the above restrictions, but you would be sharing the woods with the more traditional muzzle loaders, no scopes, just flint lock, and traditional percussion cap.
There can be no argument that so called "Primitive Weapons" seasons have become a real joke. The compound is now a weapon that can and does kill at 50 - 60 yards, a distance that was once considered ideal for traditional muzzle loaders. With the new in-line muzzle loaders, distances of 120- 175 yards are not out of the norm. The kill ratios have been approaching that of modern firearms, and Game departments have been forced to take that into consideration when making recommedations on bag limits and seasons.
I guess I am concerned because we are lumped in with those modern archers and their gear. We are still in the 5-10 percent success rates, and our numbers are vastly inferior. If this is what it takes to protect our method of hunting, maybe it is time.
I have stated what I think, I am curious to see if there are a number of "hard core" traditional bowhunters who would also be willing to pay a little more, change some of their equipment choices, work toward making this a reality in their state, and to show the non-hunting public that our way is not easy, but a noble method showing the utmost respect for or a given, but extremely hard work.
Post by: Jason R. Wesbrock on November 26, 2007, 01:40:00 PM
Quote
The second plan being floated about is a "primitive weapons season" in this season, you would be allowed to use bows with the above restrictions, but you would be sharing the woods with the more traditional muzzle loaders, no scopes, just flint lock, and traditional percussion cap.I have to admit I find it ironic that some traditional bowhunters don't want to share the woods with compound users based on their perceived effectiveness, but don't mind sidelock muzzleloaders, which are more efficient than compound bows.
Past that, I can't speak to western states, because I don't live there. But I see no reason for something like this in Illinois.
Post by: Molson on November 26, 2007, 02:25:00 PM
I don't have any experience out west, but it does seem that seasons and tags issued are closely related to success rates. If you lack opportunities or season length due to a large number of "modern" hunters, it couldn't hurt to lobby for an extended traditional season or traditional only areas.
Post by: SteveB on November 26, 2007, 02:31:00 PM
A line will be drawn on equipment allowed that will make only a few happy - regardless of its restrictions or lack of them.
It will only serve to divide hunters further - nothing positive I can see.
Steve
Post by: BigCnyn on November 26, 2007, 02:35:00 PM
Post by: woodchucker on November 26, 2007, 03:35:00 PM
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Post by: vermonster13 on November 26, 2007, 04:42:00 PM
Post by: Angus on November 26, 2007, 04:46:00 PM
Post by: woodchucker on November 26, 2007, 05:11:00 PM
I do what I do because I want to.....Not because I consider myself "special".....
I like old bows,and old guns.....This year I used my old 1967 Bear Grizzly to kill my spikehorn.
I also hunt during the modern firearms season.....I usually carry my old 16ga. Ithaca "Deerslayer". Smooth bore,iron sights,she'll drive tacks at 100 yards but most of my shots are around 40-50.
My point is this.....when you have "special" seasons,you have to many people "trying" to be "special".
Just like QDM.....Years ago,the guys who hunted the hardest regularly killed the biggest bucks,without any help from the game depts. antler restrictions and QDM "plan".
Post by: Alex.B on November 26, 2007, 05:56:00 PM
Post by: tomh on November 27, 2007, 05:46:00 AM
Post by: Brian Krebs on November 27, 2007, 06:30:00 AM
I do not believe in safety in numbers; I believe in safety in ideology; but then I have been diagnosed as an 'incurable idealist'.
I would 'give up' my ~any weapon~ hunts here in Idaho; to have an additional season with my bow.
In 'my' unit; there are elk pouring over the divide from Montana- each winter to here in Idaho; and the fish and game says they are a problem.
The 'A' tag we have allows us to hunt from August first to the end of September with 'any weapon' for elk in certain areas in and around crops. This is an antlerless only hunt. The period from August 30th to September 30th overlaps the regular bow hunt. I do not like hunting for elk with a bow when there are people shooting at elk: with a gun. I think it is a dangerous thing; and it is irresponsible.
The elk though are- according to the fish and game - high enough in population that it is biologically OK.
In this zone; there is a December hunt; it is not in this unit; and I have often driven down my driveway; had to stop for elk eating my horse hay; and then drive over 30 miles to get to where it is legal to hunt them with my bow.
Yet- the fish and game has now a controlled hunt for any weapon- in the unit I live in- for the first week of December ( 10 days). For antlerless elk- with a 150 permit level limit.
That could have been a month long hunt with bows; but the 'gun lobby' prevented that from happening.And the 'bow lobby' did nothing to stop it.
According to fish and game; it would be biologically OK for a bow hunt- in all of December- here in this unit for 'cow' elk.
But there were not enough bowhunters arguing to make that happen.
I would love to see this unit open for traditional bows only for the month of December.
But without numbers or people supporting it - I just don't see it happening.
Even with a big state bowhunting organization.
It is not legal to hunt elk in December in this unit with any bow; to make it legal to hunt with a traditional bow- would not make an impact on the elk herd; or do anything negative.
But the state bowhunting organization is opposed to traditional only hunts.
WE are at the mercy of the non traditional bowhunters. If they set up proficiency tests they could easily pass- and we failed at passing the tests: it could make us look bad. They could do it on purpose. They could decide WE are bad for bowhunting; and sacrifice us in an attempt to show their superior bow shooting 'skills'.
AND its already on a small scale: been suggested.
So; we have really lost traditional bowhunting already in this state; as we are not respected for our bows; and we are at the mercy of others.
I would like a separate season; I would give up my any weapon hunts - but the compound/cam bow people will not. They rule the roost; and what they say counts more.
Problem is; we remain at their mercy. I do not like that position; and I don't believe any of us should.
REMEMBER : THE FIRST ANTI-BOWHUNTERS IN THIS COUNTRY WERE RIFLE HUNTERS - NOT ANTI-HUNTERS!
And today; if your hearing someone talk about 'deer running around with arrows sticking out of them' - chances are they are rifle- or compound bow- hunters: not the general public or anti-hunters!
WE are in a pickle. And it is a result of not sticking to an ideology about traditional bowhunting. IMHO
Setting up a hunt as suggested at the beginning of this post would do that. So; I am for it.
Post by: Molson on November 27, 2007, 09:54:00 AM
I'm certain there aren't too many who would pass up an opportunity to hunt a "Traditional Only" area or season if it existed.
I never could understand why anyone thinks gun hunters, compound hunters, or crossbow hunters care one bit about preserving or providing opportunity for us. Quite the opposite.
Post by: Alex.B on November 27, 2007, 10:16:00 AM
Brian Krebs does carry a very large hammer, because he sure changed my angle of view on this
thanks Brian... and Molson
Post by: et on November 27, 2007, 01:24:00 PM
If F@G does shorten the season I will be all for arguing that the traditional archers should not have to suffer the consequences of the ever extending “effective” range of the compound hunters. A friend of mine is a P@Y measurer and it has been his experience that the average distance has increased significantly over the last decade.(at least %50)
In the mean time I hope that we can strengthen ITB so that we will have a base to lobby from when the day comes that further reductions in hunting opportunity become a reality.
Back East it seems that the game is abundant to the point of almost being a nuisance (white tail deer) and access to game is the challenge the average hunter faces. In the West we are facing a greater demand for game then our current game population can sustain. This demand is leading to more draw only hunts and the potential of people’s choice of weapon to negatively impact their fellow hunter’s opportunity to hunt.
I am all for a separate season for traditional archery. I do have the concern that we would be “ripe for the picking” by anti’s but the vast majority of non hunters react favorably to traditional hunters. Even non hunters have a pretty well developed sense of fair chase.
et
Post by: Scott J. Williams on November 27, 2007, 02:23:00 PM
I think it is the right time to present this issue to game departments, because as stated so well above, we are going have to contend with lower bag limits and fewer days afield. If we continue to blindly, and totally continue to hitch our wagon to the modern bowhunters we will suffer for an afliction that was brought about by "technology", which results are not our fault.
It was stick and string hunters who got the seasons we enjoy, I for one am not ready to give it away, not without a fight. It seems that the crowd that wanted expandable broadheads raised enough hell to get what they wanted, the crossbow people raised enough hell to get what they wanted, we have the best argument of all. We have a lighter empact on game numbers, we are seeking to have more hunter days afield, and most traditional hunters I have spoken to are willing to pay a little more for the right to do so.
More hunter days is the montra, in as undistrubed areas as possible, without the competition with muzzle loaders, compounds, or crossbows. With all the types of tools being used and competing for time afield, we have the softest impact, a factor that should not be overlooked.
Post by: MI_Bowhunter on November 27, 2007, 03:21:00 PM
I don't want to see any legislation that would furthur subdivide the hunting seasons. A restricted season could prevent me from hunting with my dad and my hunting buddies who all use compounds. That certainly would put a damper on deer camp. I love hunting with trad gear but If it meant losing hunting opportunities with my father and best friends, I'd go back to hunting with a wheel bow. For me those experiences are why I hunt and are more important then the equipment I use.
I don't know what its like in other states, I've only lived and hunted here in MI so I won't presume to know what's best elsewhere. For me, here in MI, I don't want it.
Post by: BigCnyn on November 27, 2007, 03:40:00 PM
Post by: et on November 27, 2007, 04:09:00 PM
The way I would hope to see it, there would be Trad hunts we pay extra for(like the archery stamp)and have to follow trad regs. One could still hunt with his compond friends but the any weapon would go a way. I will be surprised if we still have the any weapon season in 5 years anyway.
I sure do hear you about the value of hunting with family.
et
Post by: BigCnyn on November 27, 2007, 04:20:00 PM
Post by: Scott J. Williams on November 27, 2007, 04:28:00 PM
It has been suggested that the separation would allow for the game managers to make game harvest regulations based on the difference. In other words, if I have a controlled group of traditional bowhunters and I can compare their harvest to the other group. They should see, and rather quickly that our success rate is lower. They might be more willing to give us a few extra days a season.
The way it is now, they see archery equipment, and see a 20% greater in some areas ,success rate, so they saddle us all with that rate, and we aren't truly making that kind of impact.
ET is right, the way things are going the any weapon thing is going by the wayside. We can try something different, or wait to have them paint us into a corner we might never get out of.
Post by: vermonster13 on November 27, 2007, 04:39:00 PM
There are around 30,000 Traditional Bow Hunters in the U.S.A and many of those aren't Trad Equipment exclusive. There are 3,000,000 licensed bow hunters in the States. Cater to the few and raise the ire of the many.
Post by: et on November 27, 2007, 05:26:00 PM
Please elaborate on the "many things that aren't good for us...". As I am very pro separation (if we start to lose hunting days because of the effectiveness of the compound). Not sure what you are implying about "self imposed limitations". Yes many of us would rather have days in the field, then a guaranteed kill.
Being the "uber hunter that I am, ;) " I have little doubt that I would be over 50% hunting with a compound, and have historically gone 100% with the rifle. Trad is around 30%. Yes, I do hunt for the meat but I really don't like the idea of losing days in the field because of other hunters choices. I don’t see the trad season existing because ‘I deserve more of a chance because of my gear (gotta get mine)”, but because statistically my choice of equipment has a minimal impact on the game numbers .
I wouldn’t support a Trad season that limits other user groups ability to hunt; simply maintaining the status quo for those of us that still hunt with the gear that allowed for such liberal seasons.
I am interested in your answer because I have been wrong or at least changed my position once or twice before.
et
Post by: vermonster13 on November 27, 2007, 05:36:00 PM
Post by: Jason R. Wesbrock on November 27, 2007, 07:26:00 PM
Quote
Originally posted by et:That's pretty much been my experience here in IL and up north in WI.
Back East it seems that the game is abundant to the point of almost being a nuisance (white tail deer) and access to game is the challenge the average hunter faces.
Post by: Molson on November 27, 2007, 09:06:00 PM
Quote
Originally posted by vermonster13:In other words, there are 30,000 people who hunt (sometimes?) with traditional gear, not 30,000 Traditional Bow Hunters.
There are around 30,000 Traditional Bow Hunters in the U.S.A and many of those aren't Trad Equipment exclusive.
Kinda makes you wonder just who's driving the car.
Post by: et on November 27, 2007, 11:50:00 PM
I will throw out for fodder that just as there are significant differences in regional ethics and accepted practices there are significant differences in threats to traditional archery hunting according to region.
et
Post by: vermonster13 on November 27, 2007, 11:58:00 PM
Post by: et on November 28, 2007, 12:16:00 AM
I have no idea what you have done in the past nor do I wish to imply that your thoughts are not well reasoned.
With out discussion I am left with my previous held beliefs. I am feeling that there is a significant regional difference between the western trad archers and the other side of the Mississippi. I would hope that the purpose of the forum is to exchange ideas before some one such as my self who certainly lacks experience in public policy charges full steam ahead.
Sincerely, Eric
Post by: HNTN4ELK on November 28, 2007, 05:40:00 AM
In Idaho, and in my own home state of Montana, we have as Brian Krebs described somewhat of an elk problem, too many elk on on too little private ground. It is not an issue of too many elk on public land where 90% of bowhunters and trad bowhunters hunt.
Introducing a traditional only season will only serve to further divide bowhunters. If the equipment, ie; the compound bow is your personal issue, then work at getting reasonable and responsible archery equipment descriptions and requirements in your state big game regulations.
Trying to get any trad only seasons will from my experience, only serve to water down any game department and public support and will end up further eroding and dividing all bowhunters--for the record, I do not percieve the crossbow as archery equipment.
In Montana, we can hunt in the bow season, and the general firearms seasons and in most other weapons restricted hunts from beginning in August 15th for antelope to late season hunts into mid January for deer, late season elk hunts into March with our bows, asking for a trad only season or region or hunting units in this state will not go over well and would have little real support.
Kind of a fun idea to toy with, but like an autopilot in an airplane, the pilot is one who controls it, not the autopilot....
Gary Carvajal
Post by: Scott J. Williams on November 28, 2007, 08:18:00 AM
Again, there is not always strength in numbers, or wisdom in numbers, if that were the case, this country would not be a Representitive Republic, it is not a Democracy, which equates to mob rule.
If my thoughts threaten, beliefs, should upset anyone, I am sorry. dialog is what this subjects needs, and by people who are involved and know what they are doing. However, the sooner we understand that the difference between modern bowhunting and traditional bowhunting is as great as that between firearms and modern bowhunting the better off we will be.
This is certainly something that should be brought to the light. We should all check our reasons for being for or against this. I have received consideral support for my position as well as my share of critcs.
This is not a complaint, for I choose to hunt with this tool of limited range, that requires a great deal of practice. This limitation should not be overlooked, and that which is good for modern bowhunters is not always good for traditional bowhunters.
Let's not forget that the whole idea about doing something like this was to benefit those of us who hunt with traditional tackle only, and are interested in increasing hunter days afield. If you don't want to take advantage of something like this, don't. If you are happy with your situation and business as usual fine.
I can't help but think that some of the comments sound just like the gun hunters did when it was suggested that there should be a separate season for bowhunters.....Hummmmm the more things change, the more they stay the same.
Post by: vermonster13 on November 28, 2007, 09:19:00 AM
Nationally we lost 500,000 hunters from our ranks in 2006, we have now dropped to 12.5 million from 13 in 2001.
186,000 people participated in all forms of hunting combined in Idaho in 2006.
More folks participated in wildlife watching and spent more money on it than on hunting for the first time by 2 million dollars spent in Idaho.
23% of the population hunted and fished while 39% were wildlife watchers.
More numbers later
Post by: vermonster13 on November 28, 2007, 09:41:00 AM
Primitive firearm seasons were originally meant for flintlocks and the like. Many hunters saw this as an extra opportunity to fill a tag and bought muzzleloaders(DNRs saw these tags as a way to increase revenues and hit management goals with a declining number of hunters) Inlines came about because of the large amount of failure to cleanly kill and recover animals by folks who went out and bought smokepoles and the failure of management numbers being reached.
While hunting to us is something quite a bit more, to DNRs we are simply wildlife managers and a revenue source.
If a Traditional only hunting season is introduced it would most likely follow the original muzzleloader model and be placed after all the other hunts are closed for the year. Folks will once again see this as an opportunity to expand their hunting seasons and buy equipment they are unfamiliar with. Low success rates and higher wounding rates would most likely result. These would not bode well for Traditional Archery.
There is more but this I am sure will get things started.
Post by: BigCnyn on November 28, 2007, 10:56:00 AM
Post by: Molson on November 28, 2007, 11:17:00 AM
What I don't agree with, is an "everything or nothing" approach to these issues. There's a difference between having a separate season and creating additional opportunities. There are positive ways to promote traditional bowhunting without creating seperatist attitudes and without encroaching on existing seasons.
Everything has its dark side. Everything. That doesn't mean you give up. Instead you focus on solutions and creative ideas to minimize risks and reach your goals.
Post by: et on November 28, 2007, 11:17:00 AM
If the requirement to hunt a trad only season involves a sacrifice I think it would weed out those who just want a late season "chance" to fill their tag. Prior to ID going to Zones for elk we did have just what you described. "Everyone" who hadn't filled their tag from Boise to Idaho Falls descended on the Challis area in November, self included one year. Though I would like to see some modifications to the Zone system it did stop that problem.
Late season hunts can bring out the worst in people. There was a December hunt (archery)just outside of Twin Falls that deteriorated due to the desperation of those with unfilled tags. ATVs and vehicle drives on the deer. There does need to be a mechanism to limit the opportunist.
Low success rates, IMO, are not an issue in ID. F@G will always go to any weapons hunt when they want the numbers knocked down, though there are few places where we have much of a surplus of game anymore.
Those here know the effectiveness of trad gear (archery and muzzleloader)depends on the skill of the user. I always assumed that the inline push came from industry needing to find a way to push their wares, not DNR trying to increase the primitive season harvest.
I realize I haven’t been very clear on my position in the previous posts as I have blended two scenarios, 1) my stand if we start to lose hunting opportunities due to efficiency of the modern compound then I would argue for separation(though it does have risks that need to be weighed)
2) Why not create revenue, provide extra days a field for those that are willing to sacrifice their any weapon tag and accept gear limitations?
It is amazing that hunting lands seem to be shrinking at a rate even faster then the loss of hunters. In ID it appears that the number of hunters per acre has increased.
Thanks for the voicing some of your concerns about this issue as it is important to hear view points one may not have considered and the cold reality of facts from those that have debated this before.
et
Post by: vermonster13 on November 28, 2007, 11:49:00 AM
Post by: Scott J. Williams on November 28, 2007, 04:34:00 PM
You have hit the nail on the head. It seems that everyone is more interested in protecting what they have, even when it is not threatened.
Where the heck did "elite" attitude come from. Just because I don't hunt with a gun, muzzle loader, compound or crossbow gives me an elite attitude. Now if I said I was a better person than someone who did not see things my way, that would be true. I and many people share my view that those of us who are willing to pay a little more, and willing not use any any weapon tag, should have some consideration of a special season.
I say again, what is the harm in that, and how is that a danger to anyone. I say it again, it smacks of the pre-archery season attitude. I don't take a deer every year, although not for lack of trying. I would not touch a gun just to fill a tag, and there are many who feel the same way. I love hunting with the traditonal bow, with it's many limitations.
I am a little tired of explaining to others that my bow without wheels and cams is not the same as the one's with them. One thing that is being missed here is the fact that many of the people making the decisions on your seasons are not hunters, they see bow and they think it is all the same. Few are bowhunters of any kind, they are legislators. They will go on recommedations based on the numbers, or polictical correctness, or donors. Say what you will, hunter success for compound shooters have been going up and up. The converse cannot be truthly stated. There is a finite amount of game, and revenue to the state should not be the sole factor, although I admit it is important.
While nothing will be settled here, each state will be forced to deal with this issued at one time or another. The method by which they choose to deal with it will be with us for a long time to come.
Some may view this as a hunting issue, others view this as a bowhunting issue, I and few other view it as a Traditional bowhunting issue. Just my thoughts, so we will agree to disagree.
Post by: woodchucker on November 28, 2007, 07:02:00 PM
BECAUSE I WANT TO!!!!!
Have we reached the point in time where we do not do anything unless it "benefits" us????? Do we really NEED "special" seasons????? Mr. Williams states.....I am alittle tired of explaining to others that my bow without wheels and cams is not the same as the ones with them. Mr. williams,I ask you this.....Why do you feel the "need" to explain this to others????? (and Mr. Williams please do not take offense because I'm simply using what you said to make a point,Why do we NEED to explain ourselves to anyone?????)Isn't just using traditional equipment satisfying enough for you????? More than a few times each year,I don my orange camo jacket,pick up my bow,and head out to join the "orange hoard" of gun hunters. I do not have a problem sharing the woods with ANYONE.....We are ALL "hunters" afterall. Many years ago I gave up bowhunting. I just couldn't get used to the compund bows.I gun hunted for years and I was very happy doing it. Yes,it was "easier" but I passed up alot of deer for a number of personal reasons. At no point did I find gun hunting "unsatisfying". When I got back into bowhunting in 1999 I wanted to go back to the way I bowhunted in the days of my youth,with an old recurve bow and cedar arrows. As for "tradtional" bowhunting being "harder".....I know a few traditional bowhunters that fill thier tags as easily as stepping out the back door. I do not need special seasons or special regulations to "reward" me for using traditional equipment. I do what I do.....Because I WANT to....
What if the "founding fathers" of bowhunting, Pope,Young,Hill,Bear.....didn't just "do it" because they "wanted to".
Post by: HNTN4ELK on November 28, 2007, 07:19:00 PM
Starting any earlier would not be wise for a number of reasons, amoung them heat and the potential for meat loss. Later and you run into winter or even calving or fawning time.
As I have said in Montana you may hunt with your trad gear from the beginning of archery season in mid August to mid January right on through the general firearms season if that is your choice. And with some types of licenses even into March. Yes, you must wear orange when a firearms season is on, so?
I heard someone say years ago something that comes to mind with this discussion:
You can put shoes on a chicken, but is there a compelling reason to do so?
I cannot see any reason to even venture down this road in my state.
Gary Carvajal
Post by: Scott J. Williams on November 28, 2007, 08:20:00 PM
I take no offense, however you miss the point. Why do you choose to hunt with traditional gear. Most of us do so because it provides the greatest satisfaction, and is the way it was when the first season was granted.
I was speaking, if you read what I said as opposed to what you think I said, of those who do not hunt, who have no knowledge of hunting. These people need an explaination. Woodchucker they also have your hunting future in their hands, if you don't thinks so ask the people in California.
HNTN4Elk, the place they put most of these seasons are at the begining or end. Further more, more and more states provide these in the form of new areas opened to traditional bowhunters, as opposed to seasons. You will have greater access to places where all hunters were banded, due to a total mistaken idea that if there is hunting going on, there must be guns going off.
I will tell you this Mr. Chucker, that it is not about rewards for, it is a leveling of the playing field. I bowhunter year around, I have shared camps with gun hunters, and currently share a lease with compound bow hunters, but that is not the way I want to have to do it all the time.
Look beyond yourself, not everybody sees things the way you do, or hunt the way you do. Make no mistake, I am not trying to change your mind, or gain your support on this issue. I am not running for office, and it will put not one penney more in my pocket. I am stating my mind, and by the emails I have received, a lot of people are saying the same thing that I am. I am 52 years old, I have hunted with a bow for forty years. I was there before the compound, I remember how tough it was then, and if you are not careful we could lose what we have gained.
You speak of Fred Bear, whom I had the pleasure of meeting, and POPE and YOUNG, hunting because they wanted. This is something that a fair number of traditional bowhunters would like to see. I say again, why do so many feel so threatened by it, what is the real deal.
You clearly are happy with your situation, then keep on keepin on! I choose a different path, you are welcome to go anyway you wish, but don't attempt to stop me.
Nuff Said.
Post by: Molson on November 28, 2007, 08:36:00 PM
Of course, that wouldn't work if you are of the opinion that EVERYTHING a traditional hunter does to promote our sport does NOTHING but make us "elite" and tick someone off.
As for people who would look to expand their opportunity with equipment they are unfamiliar with.... Isn't that an ethical issue? Isn't anything anyone wants to do in this sport ok as long as it's legal? Who are we to judge? Right? Hardly. Vermonster's muzzleloader model is exactly the reason we need to maintain an ideology (Thanks Krebs!) and identity that we aggressively protect.
Post by: vermonster13 on November 28, 2007, 08:46:00 PM
What happens when the Compound guys say hey, the Traditional guys have their own seasons, why do they need to be able to hunt in ours? Divisions are created when we start subdividing seasons and the bigger voice is going to win out in the end.
As things lie right now I can hunt all six weeks of the hunting seasons in VT with my bow. Rifle only guys only get two weeks, muzzleloader can hunt three of them.
Nothing wrong with making property you own or lease Traditional only if you like. it's when we start limiting the use of public land when the trouble starts brewing.
Post by: Molson on November 28, 2007, 09:52:00 PM
I would hope the other 2,970,000 bow hunters of the country would not look at it as some kind of threat, but as another bowhunting opportunity.
A traditional season, in and of itself, could easily, and for the same reasons it appeals to traditionalists, be another outdoor option for any bow or gun hunter to choose from.
If it really is as you say, that something like this would only create division, then division is a problem that already exists, and we had very little to do with its creation.
I do understand your point, I just don't know why we view ourselves so negatively.
Post by: et on November 28, 2007, 10:34:00 PM
I am considering the "radical“ idea that it isn't the hunting populace that will decide our future but the non hunters. We as hunters have not,IMO, done a very good job in "policing" our own ranks. Frequently I will see folks reminiscing about how Fred Bear and company used to be on The American Sportsman and lament how our society has gone Disney. Is it that America has gone Disney or perhaps the average American hunter no longer inspires any sense of adventure that the non hunting public can relate to? Most non hunters I interact with value and have a defined sense of fair chase; frequently miss informed from a hunting perspective but never the less they do accept that hunting has a role in our society.
Is there not room to use this with out degenerating other hunting methods? Just as we recruit compound shooters into our ranks with patience and modeling couldn't the Trad community be used as an example to the non hunting to rekindle the sense of adventure and Fair Chase that most non hunters respect?
( I am not saying that other methods are not Fair chase, just coming from the non hunter perspective)
Why not be a bridge to the masses so that they can start to understand or at least be open to the idea of hunting again? Where as hunters do we show the public a different face from the "Wack'm and Stack'm" TV shows?
The last question can be construed to be "elitist" but can behavior that will (hopefully garner the respect of the majority) allow the person with out wealth continued access to hunting be elitist?
Yes, I have asked more questions then answered but I do fear for the future of our hunting heritage (regardless of weapon) and believe that there are other strategies that need to be developed in order to preserve and enhance our heritage. Discussions such as this are vital.
et
Post by: grizzlyxx on November 28, 2007, 10:41:00 PM
Post by: vermonster13 on November 28, 2007, 11:10:00 PM
Texas had 70,900 licensed bowhunters and they managed to kill 13,008 deer out of the 433,387 taken. Not much impact there either.
Post by: tomh on November 29, 2007, 04:02:00 AM
If so, a lot of guys buy that because you get deer, elk, turkey, bear, lion tags, plus archery and muzzle loader permits and a couple other things.
So those numbers could be skewed by guys that got the package deal for the tags and never hunted with a bow or smokepole.
I know a few guys that buy it and don't own a bow or muzzle loader.
Not trying to be argumentative, just stats don't tell the whole story.
Post by: vermonster13 on November 29, 2007, 09:00:00 AM
Post by: et on November 29, 2007, 11:12:00 AM
I do have an unspoken agenda in this discussion. I have started(last 2 years) to write brief essays to my now 8 year old son on what hunting was like in the late 90's and this decade. What the issues were and my experience's and thoughts while in the field. I remember my father and friends returning from high country mule deer hunts, over hearing their stories while us kids sat fondling empty 30-30 casings. His later attempts to fill his elk tag with a '52 grizzly. The changes have been pretty phenomenal since I was his age, regarding opportunity to hunt and the general populaces perception of hunting.
We are basically 100 years into this "sport hunting" experience much has changed and fortunately the love of the hunt has remained. What are the next hundred years going to bring? Will we be able to keep this gift alive and what do we need to do to ensure that our children will be able to roam the land with weapon in hand?
The changes I have seen in my life give me pause as to whether hunters current "big tent" approach will be effective in the near future.
The deer harvest numbers surprised me and I will keep them handy, thanks. "Trophy" bull elk are where we come under fire from the gun hunter here in ID.
Having a trad season would be nice, IMO, but as we discuss this further it does fall down a bit on my list of priorities when compared to the challenges facing us.
et
Post by: Jeremy on November 29, 2007, 12:13:00 PM
I can hunt from mid Sept through the end of Jan with my bow. Extend the season earlier than that and you'll raise fawn mortality drastically (it'd make it so easy to call in does with a fawn bleat though :) ) In general, I don't see where a Trad only season would be a good idea for many of the reasons others have stated.
Scott, I know many states are opening lands up as bow-only (mine included), but are there really states opening lands up to trad-only?? I wouldn't have thought that.
Last season better than 95% of my hunting was with my longbow, the rest was going for pheasants with a group every other weekend.
Post by: vermonster13 on November 29, 2007, 12:34:00 PM
Post by: Molson on November 29, 2007, 02:14:00 PM
Having said that, I cannot say that the "idea" of a traditional only hunt is a bad one. I certainly would take advantage of it if it existed. That does not mean that the "idea" of a traditional only season is a good one either. There are real problems with real consequences that need addressed.
What I can say is that the topic is worthy of discussion. It brings to light problems that currently exist among the hunting ranks. A simple, "no way-next topic" does nothing toward solving or even identifying these issues.
Post by: laddy on December 07, 2007, 04:32:00 AM
I don't really feel that the compound shooters have that much over us, but long range fire arms and bows do not mix. I have never had a nonhunter get on me about my bows and arrows, but some of these inliners are obsessed about all the deer we wound. I guess they need an excuse for not being over run by trophy deer. I am all for archery only hunters, getting a break. I've never been a fan of the two season option, the way I look at it if I hunt two seasons one with a gun the other with a bow, that makes me half a bowhunter.
I don't expect these options will ever happen in whitetail states again, although there does seem to be a lot of overcrowding on state land. Maybe, throw the tree stands out and keep the muzzleloaders off state land for the early season, that would be a good compromise, but I still don't like splitting archery styles up.
Post by: Brian Krebs on December 07, 2007, 05:57:00 PM
We do have a history; of the 'witchery of archery' - of learning about bowhunting from the very last 'wild native American'- Ishi.
We have a history of loving the out of doors; and all the creatures in it. Ishi picked up a rabbit once and put it down safely. We have that as our history.
We have Fred Bear; who presented bowhunting as an adventure; Howard Hill who presented shooting bows as an art form.
Bowhunters fought rifle hunters -to establish the first bowhunts. To now think that these old enemies will continue to be our friends; even if they comprise the majority of 'bowhunters' - but with compounds in their hands -- is I think : very short-sighted.
I do not believe that if bowhunters are pressed by anti-hunters; and fish and game departments; that they will hesitate at all- to throw us to the wolves. We are not needed to keep a bow season alive; only those that are competent to shoot a target: at a given range are needed. Anyone else is just- the first to sacrifice.
And I have seen even here on the Trad Gang - an effort to make 'proficiency' testing a reality.
Look we do have a history; a proud history; grounded in the thoughts of the first conservationist- Aldo Leopold; and a great group of others that loved the out of doors; and the experience of being in it.
Sorry; but rifle seasons are not about 'being in the out of doors'-for the majority. They are social activities that involve little effort for the masses of them. For decades the 'successful rifle hunter' shot his game the first ten minutes of light- on opening day; and spent therefore: less than an hour in the woods each year.
Now planting food plots; and posting property; buying leases; building permanent blinds and purchasing the best rifle; scope; range finder; and trophy deer behind a fence: determines the 'successful' rifle hunter.
And bowhunter too. The faster the bow; the shorter the bow; the better the range finder; the broadhead that does not need sharpening; the pre-sighted bow and arrows set for up to 60 yards over the counter- the release mechanisms... its a move in a direction that 'traditional bowhunters' are not following at all.
The claim that we are elitists- is much like someone throwing a cow pie at you... and you letting it stick.
We need to wipe that one off - now.
I remember when anyone who thought that the second amendment was referring to 'the people owning guns' was a 'GUN NUT'. While the title was better suited for those: that thought we were past ever needing guns..
I do not appose gun seasons. I do not appose bow seasons for compound bows; or seasons where any bow can be used. ( a cross-bow does not shoot arrows and is not a bow).
I do object to standing behind the loudest compound shooter; and peeking around his cape: to see what is going to happen to bowhunting.
I know there were those of us that taped sticks on our bows to use as sights; and yet I do not believe that makes us on the same path; and headed in the same direction as compound shooters; and it does not make us 'elite'.
Howard Hill thought the longbow was best suited to hunting because it allowed the hunter to make moving shots. Now- on most television hunting shows; it is made plain and clear- that shooting a moving animal: is an ethical error.
The arch was proudly taken out of archery; nocks are not needed; as now we have a magnet that fits onto the string; and locks the arrow shaft onto it for more accurate shooting.
More accurate shooting.
More accurate shooting.
More accurate shooting.
Get it? That has become the goal. You can pay for buck of any size; you can buy a bow that replaces skill and devotion. Lighted sights; range finders- that even account for up and down angles. You know all the stuff out there.
Its all about accuracy.
The further they head down that road; bow in a sling over their shoulder; the less likely they are to support those that cannot shoot a 2 inch group at 60 yards.
That is us.
While we look at the Wensels; and fall into the romance of hunting with a traditional bow; and all the things of 'primal hunting' ... turn around.
There is only a small crowd- following us.
The other bowhunters are busy planting crops that augment their shooting blinds; putting out feeders; waiting for the chance to use their range finder; and draw back their bows; and 'squeeze the trigger' on a big buck.
I think it is an error- to hide under a big tent; when the tent is not yours; and when the tent stays the same size- but the numbers in it: go up.
I think it is better for us to say who we are; and why we do what we do NOW than to say it as we are dragged kicking and screaming from the woods; because our equipment is crude and not capable of making 80 yard shots with any accuracy- like 'RESPONSIBLE BOWHUNTERS'.
These people are elitists not us.
If there is a biological reason to allow a traditional bowhunt; and the addition of the hunt does not take away opportunity from other groups - then what is the logic in not allowing it?
Post by: Al Dente on December 08, 2007, 09:38:00 AM
There should be archery season and firearms season. Enough with all of these divisions.
Post by: laddy on December 09, 2007, 12:41:00 AM
Post by: Dr. Ed Ashby on December 11, 2007, 11:06:00 AM
Next year marks 50 years since my first big game bow kill, a whitetail. From that moment onwards I knew the difference between hunting and merely killing. I ENJOY hunting; I love the time afield, and the challange of pitting my personal hunting skills against the animal. I LIKE having to get VERY CLOSE before being certain of my ability to make my shot count.
I bowhunt with traditional bows because I WANT TO. I don't particularly care what the others I'm hunting with are using. That's a personal choice on their part. A great many of my friends (and sometimes hunting companions) are rifle hunters, handgun hunters, muzzle loader hunters and compound bow shooters. Some even use crossbows. I don't mind sharing my hunting camp with any of them; or sharing the woods with any other real hunters - no matter what they are using to hunt with. I belive, perhaps somewhat concetedly, that my traditional bowhunting ethics has even had a beneficial influence on a few of those, now old and grizzled, hunting companions of mine.
What I don't like are those individuals who are out there ONLY to kill; or who become angry when the animal the do take fails to make 'the book'.. Now, if we can get a special season that's limited to only those who truly like to HUNT - that I'm all for.
All the special seasons in the world won't solve the problem of inconsiderate, assanine acting slobs - those who care nothing about what hunting is really about - and those folks can be found among the ranks of any 'equipment group'. I'm proud to say that I've seen fewer of those among the ranks of traditional bowhunters than among any other ... but there are some there too.
If you bowhunt for the love of hunting, just being able to get out there and do it is reward enough, and it doesn't matter what the next guy is using ... as long as he hunts responsibly and is there for the right reasons. There are enough slob-hunters out there, and more than enough anti-hunters in this world. I believe it's critical for all those who truly like to hunt to be united if we, and the sport we love, are to long survive in this world that has become publically corrupted by politically-correntness.
I'd rather see efforts to promote and expand the knowledge and understanding of our hunting ethics and heritage than to have a single traditional-only season. Besides, the years are taking their toll, and I'm rapidly running out of my supply of close bowhunting friends - but I do still have a few who hunt with other weapons. I'd hate to lose the option of hunting with their company, simply because they choose to hunt with a different weapon than I.
Ed
Post by: Orion on December 11, 2007, 04:34:00 PM
I find it amusing that some folks continuye to rile against crossbows while apparently acquiesing to compounds. Twenty years ago, crossbows were probably more effective, efficient, accurate,etc., than compounds. That doesn't appear to be the case any longer. About the only difference I see between them is that the compound is held vertically, the crossbow horizontally. With 80 percent let off, the fact that a compound has to be drawn "by hand" really doesn't amount to a hill of beans. How's that for opening another can of worms.
Post by: Brian Krebs on December 11, 2007, 06:07:00 PM
Thank you for your input on this. I understand what your saying; and I agree.. except for the crossbow deal- I see crossbows as an invention to kill other people; not for hunting. I see no romance in using a tool for hunting: that was designed for that sole purpose.
One thing you ( Dr Ashby) mentioned that I find central to the argument of why we NEED a traditional season is this:
"Next year marks 50 years since my first big game bow kill, a whitetail. From that moment onwards I knew the difference between hunting and merely killing. I ENJOY hunting; I love the time afield, and the challange of pitting my personal hunting skills against the animal. I LIKE having to get VERY CLOSE before being certain of my ability to make my shot count."
While this is true of great hunters whatever the weapon- having time afield is not as integral to rifle hunting; or shotgun/muzzleloader and compound bow seasons: as it is to traditional bow and even perhaps traditional muzzleloader seasons.
Traditional hunting is going out and matching wits with animals; and laying in wait; and tracking and stalking: and all that takes time afield.
We all know that where the rifle hunt ends; the bowhunt begins. If a rifle hunter sees his prey at distances up to 900 yards; he has a chance. At 75 yards its pretty much a done deal. Our shooting limits us to -pretty much- under 50 yards: and averages probably less than half that.
So- we need to get closer; we need a clearer shot; we need more knowledge of the wind; the woods and the animals- to get in close for the shot.
That takes time. Not only to get the chance for a shot; but to become part of the out of doors- to reach the level it takes- to be quiet as we walk; and observe.
Its this precious time afield- that I am trying to protect; and the added challenge of the traditional bow.. demands that. So I see keeping the season lengths we have: as really important.
Many people enjoy shooting compounds - or cam bows or whatever they are called now. That is just fine. I have no objection to it. I hunt with people that shoot compounds; and too with rifles; and I do not question their honor or ethics; or their abilities - or their methods.
I just do not want the added numbers of people hunting in the bow season effectively :to effect the bow season lengths.
Aldo Leopold in one of his books said that bowhunting should never reach a point- where it impacts game numbers- and becomes a 'game management tool'.
I saw that as saying that we should have lower numbers; and that we should be doing it for the fun of it; and for the time it requires us to spend in the out of doors- to observe and to appreciate it.... or become part of game management. And thus: subject to changes that would not be in our interest.
An argument for having a separation of 'traditional bowhunting' and 'compound bowhunting' if ~only in legal definition~ is that- if that changes- there should be no need for traditional bowhunters to be effected.
Because we are lower in numbers- and with a separation of definition- we don't have to be lumped with the bowhunters that ~will~ lose time and opportunity.
I can come up with lots of good arguments for rifle hunting; and bow seasons; but I also think there is a good reason: for having a defined traditional classification; and seasons.
:campfire: :archer:
Post by: Dr. Ed Ashby on December 12, 2007, 12:53:00 PM
I hope the day never comes that I have to do the same, but I like knowing that there are alternatives to having to give up venturing forth with my friends, should my own physical condition someday dictate that I can no long use my trad bows.
Ed
Post by: Scott J. Williams on December 12, 2007, 01:22:00 PM
I agree with you totally. I never meant that the option would be elimiated. I was just speaking of a season dedicated to the way it all started, I have seen Martial Art go through the same process as bowhunting. The new guys believed that they had a better way, so the old way was pushed aside in the interest of being more inclusive. It resulted in a watered down version, most often a shadow of what it was, not providing the benefits that it once did. Now, there are only a few of us that still can teach the old forms, and old techniques. To fail to embrace the root, the tree will die.
It was never an attack on anyone's method, but a forum to acknowledge that there is a major difference between the "Modern Bowhunting tools" and the more "Traditional", failure to recognize that difference is foolish, and irresponsible in my estimation. To continue to hold us to the same standard, in regard to ease of mastery, or success rates is where my focus lay.
Those of us who hunt with the longbow, recurve, selfbow, flatbow, only are a rare breed indeed. Sometimes in order to increase your numbers you must get away from the crowd to allow others to see your point of view. My Master might say, "raising your voice in the storm, will yield less fruit than a calm voice in the still of the dawn".
Post by: vermonster13 on December 12, 2007, 02:24:00 PM
There are better ways to grow the sport IMO.
Post by: woodchucker on December 12, 2007, 04:22:00 PM
As I have stated before.....
"special" seasons just mean more people TRYING to be "special"
Can't we "hunters" all just get along?????
I am a HUNTER. That's where it starts.....and where it ENDS. I do 100% of my hunting with traditional equipment.I do probly 90% of my hunting with my stickbow,but the other 10% is usualy done with one of my many guns that have been in my family and will be passed down to my grandchildren (and hopefully thier grandchildren) for years to come. and THAT My Friends is what "tradition" is all about!!!!!
Have we become that "wrapped up" in "traditional bowhunting" that we have lost the true meaning of TRADITION????? :(
I'm sorry but I have said before.....I do what I do.....because I WANT TO!!!!!
Just like a black powder hunter that uses a flintlock.....He is a teacher of the past,and a passer of the torch.....
I think we would be better off if we would concentrate on passing on our "tradition" to others rather than using it to separate us from them.
Post by: Brian Krebs on December 12, 2007, 04:32:00 PM
There are two types of elk tags for this zone.
One allows for hunting with 'any weapon' from August first through the end of September: for cow elk around certain crops. It runs right through at the same time as the regular bow season- which is August 30th through September 30th.
That means you can be calling elk; and have rifle hunters hunting elk right when and where: you are. I think this is idiotic and irresponsible. I have been hunting and had cow elk approach- to have bullets zip by me.
The same tag - the 'A tag' is needed to rifle hunt then; and hunt with a bow only during that season; and then you can hunt with traditional muzzleloader in November; and then hunt elk again in one unit for all of December.
Its kind of confusing; but the zone I have an elk tag for- allows for a December hunt in one unit in December.
There is a controlled hunt for cow elk with a rifle in another unit in this zone: during the first ten days of December.
I have to drive through elk in my driveway; where I can hunt elk in September; to get to a unit 400 yards away - but with access limited to a minimum 15 mile drive from here- where I can hunt elk.
The biologists asked for a bowhunt in December- all of December for the unit I hunt in; and the law makers: made it a ten day rifle hunt.
That still leaves though -the rest of December for a traditional bow season; that the biologists say is not only OK but needed; as the elk from Montana migrate in and winter here; competing with Idaho elk.
Thing is there are ways of implementing a traditional bowhunt that does not interfere with anyone elses hunt; and only subtracts from others time afield if the hunt is added on.
With a rifle hunt for cow elk from Aug first through the end of September; and a controlled tag hunt for the first week of December; the rifle hunters have nothing to complain about.
A traditional bow only season could be implemented- right here where I am: with biological support.
But; the stopping block is the state bow organization here: that does not want traditional bowhunters to have opportunities they cannot take advantage of.
Vermonster- I am already seeing the effect of non-traditional bowhunters: and their effect on season limitations.
During the traditional muzzleloader hunt I did not see one guy out hunting. There probably were a few; but people did not flock out there- to take advantage of the hunt.
I cannot see them running out and buying traditional bows to hunt in the same place during a traditional bow season.
If they do; they might just like it; and that is fine by me.
There are ways of implementing traditional bow hunts; but I can tell you its the big gang of compound hunters; and the rifle hunters: that are stopping it from happening---not common sense.
They are already proving their loyalties; and in my opinion if we do not move now; there ideas about traditional bows - are NOT going to help traditional bowhunting in the future.
I have zero reason to believe otherwise.
Post by: Dale Sharp on December 13, 2007, 01:54:00 AM
I like increased restrictions on equipment. Here in Washington State we don’t have unlimited wildlife resources (like the whitetailed deer out east) and so hunters have to "choose their weapon" for deer or elk and they cannot hunt outside that selection. In other words when I buy an archery deer tag I can only hunt the archery deer seasons; I cannot also hunt the muzzleloader or the rifle seasons for deer. So no one can be a "two season" hunter for a particular species. I like this fact because here we have too many people hunting too few animals. However I could, if I wanted, buy an archery deer tag but then a rifle elk tag. If it were up to me I would change this and make it even more restrictive so that instead we would have to buy an annual archery hunting LICENSE so that we would have to hunt all big game species in a given year with the same equipment; the reason being that I think archery hunting demands total commitment to the endeavor.
Where game is abundant and the resource can withstand two-season hunting, I am all for that. You who live out east have it good in that regard; I grew up in a state that allowed a person to hunt both the archery and the rifle seasons so I remember how nice it was to be able to hunt with friends or family who weren’t able to hunt with traditional archery. But as I stated above, traditional archery is my only big and small game hunting interest. [I confess that last year for the first time in nearly 30 years I shot-gunned for ducks, because my neighbor kept harping on me to accompany him; it was a noisy dang venture but I think I’ll do it again this year because he’s invited me again; I don't want to be rude.]
I’d support traditional only areas (for all the good reasons outlined by others in this thread) as well as additional opportunities that expand the season timelines so long as no one else’s time in the woods is taken away on account of it. I would restrict the dickens out of it; wood shafts, fixed blades, etc. so as to make it truly reminiscent of the era when bow seasons were first established; make it demanding and hard. This would not appeal to everyone and it wouldn’t be intended to (just like the first bow seasons!); but I think it should be available to those who are willing (read that again; WILLING) to give up all other forms of hunting and all gadgetry to try and do it the way it was intended to be done. This point was made in the initial post that started this thread but has been painted over by concerns of non-committed individuals taking “advantage” of the opportunity; it should be traditional-only, all year, all seasons. Only the dyed-in-the-wool archery hunters are going to be purchasing a license/tag that restricts them to such a narrow focus.
While I grow older eager for this to happen, I hope there will come a time when there is a distinction in success reporting so that the game departments have a record of what type of so-called “archery” weaponry kills the most game. Because I agree with others who believe that it is only a matter of time before the increased efficiency made possible by technological advances will threaten to chip away at the amount of time we get to spend in the field. And when that day comes we’d better darn well have some data to support the fact that high-tech bowhunting is too effective to have suited Aldo Leopold. We’ll then need to be able to prove that the guardians of the old methods still have an insignificant impact on the game resources. And if that then leaves us outside the big tent, so be it; I think we’ve all along sort of been stuck in the vestibule anyway. As for the non-hunting public’s perception of archery hunting, I know that my non-hunting associates view what I do as more worthy of admiration and support than what they see broadcast on the hunting-porn TV stations.
And what will I do when I’m too feeble to draw back? I’ve never used a compound; they don’t interest me. Yes, I have friends and family who have and I love those people in spite of it. I haven’t shot my deer rifle since leaving the Midwest nearly 30 years ago; may never again. I think crossbows are a plight on archery seasons. So when I can no longer pull a hunting weight bow, I will instead pick up a camera (yes, a manual camera) and with it I’ll accompany my younger comrades into the woods and continue my quest to “try and get closer”.
Dale Sharp
Post by: Brian Krebs on December 13, 2007, 05:54:00 AM
Post by: Scott J. Williams on December 13, 2007, 07:51:00 AM
Thanks so much, you get it. As for the person who thinks that special seasons are just for people trying to be special, that is very cute, but a lot of Bull.
If we are going to have discussion about this, let's leave all the petty bias crap out of it. If it were not for specail seasons, he would not be able to hunt with his TRADITIONAL BOW NOW! Just when I think I have heard it all, somebody steps up and says something really uncalled for.
Kuddos to you Mr. Sharp, you stated it very well. You are the type of person who is a credit to this fine sport that some, by evidence of this thread, are taking so lightly.
Post by: woodchucker on December 13, 2007, 08:39:00 AM
I think you really need to take a step back and look at what you posted!!!!!
It is VERY clear to see you are VERY biased about compound/gun hunters!!!!!
and your comment "If it were not for special seasons,he would not be able to hunt with his TRADITIONAL BOW NOW!" I think not my friend!!!!! I have NO PROBLEM doning a Blaze Orange jacket and sharing the woods with gun hunters.....I've been doing it for years!!!!!
This is the way I'm starting to see this.....
1) Elk
2)Special Seasons
3) Special Areas
4) NO Hunting Pressure!!!!!
i.e. You want a "special" traditional only seasons,in "special" traditional only areas,so that you can have all of the ELK to yourself with very little or no hunting pressure!!!!!
I oppoligize for offending anyone,I was trying to be nice.....But you took the first swat!!!!!
Post by: vermonster13 on December 13, 2007, 08:44:00 AM
Post by: Molson on December 13, 2007, 11:03:00 AM
We in Ohio are all about reduction. I can take 6 deer in my county, seven in the whole state. Our bow kill is near our gun kill. The primary reason for that is the crossbow.
As long as I've been hunting, crossbows have been permitted in the archery season. The vast majority of these folks are not bowhunters, don't act like bowhunters, and could care less about bowhunting. Most are downright greedy, unethical, and have no concern for the game they hunt let alone the laws.
Most, but not all. There are some very good guys who hunt with a crossbow. What irks me about them is the statement, "I'd like to hunt with a bow like that but I don't have the time." Same statement my compound hunting friends make. To a bowhunter, bowhunting should be worth the time and that shouldn't matter regardless of the type of bow you use.
They are free to make that statement because they are free to make equipment choices that require a minimum amount of effort. Truth is, they're just lazy.
In my situation, equipment currently has no effect on my hunting opportunities. Land development is a much larger threat. However, there may well come a day when it does have a significant effect on my hunting. Should that time come, there will be far to many people like them and far to few people like me to do anything about it. Where will I be in standing the "Big Tent" then????
Post by: vermonster13 on December 13, 2007, 11:18:00 AM
There is no ignorance in Woodchucker's statement. It is stated in several responses that folks want the woods to just traditional hunters for various reasons and that means far less competition for the available animals at that time. Everyone would like to hunt with less pressure and more available animals, to say otherwise is questionable.
Seems to be a lot of broadstroke painting of folks who choose another means of hunting. Hate to tell you folks but there are just a high of a percentage of the bad stuff in our camp as in any of their's, we are just so fewer in number that it isn't as noticeable.
Post by: rnharris on December 13, 2007, 12:44:00 PM
less money to spend on purchasing land for hunting and outdoor activities.What we as hunters need to do do is focus on young people
to bring them into the outdoors take a kid hunting i believe if we don't do this we won't have a voice in the future to protect our way of life.
I am a hunter first and formost and happen to pursue game with a bow.But i know some fine people who hunt with guns and compounds i believe we need to focus on conserving hunting
any way we can.Several years ago they instituted crossbows in ga. made me mad at first but then i realized they still have to get close to game to take them cleanly and most are as loud as a 22 rifle.But they are buying licenses and spending money on hunting and that's a good thing let's focus on perserving our sport from those who would take it away!
Post by: Molson on December 13, 2007, 01:14:00 PM
I have to question the "Big Tent" theory in that it seems to only work one way. There seems to be little room to promote Traditional Bowhunting for fear of ticking off someone else and what they might do about it. That just doesn't seem very "Big Tentish" to me.
Fact is, those of us to whom hunting is more than just about the dollars, scores, and kills are getting fewer and fewer. New modern archers know nothing of the heritage of our sport and could give a wit to learn about it. Nothing in the mainstream exists to even suggest there ever was a past. What "Big Tent"? Big archery shoved us out quite some time ago.
You want to make a difference? Start convincing big business the past is important. That hunting ethics and our heritage matter. Make these companies and so called pro shops start promoting honor, values, and integrity again...You know, the things you can't purchase.
As for these morons in our sport...get rid of them. They don't belong. I'm pretty sick of reading about some idiot who hasn't even shot a big game animal getting himself a bow and thinking he can voice his "professional" opinion about what we should and shouldn't do. You want to earn it, earn it. My way can't be bought. I had to work for it and I'm not going to just hand it over to the first pansy who feels left out.
Whew....That's my rant for today.
**Disclaimer**
For the record, I agree with the "Big Tent" theory in principle. I know several gun, compound, and crossbow hunters to whom our hunting heritage is important. It is my belief that the "Big Tent" will remain "without a pole" until the high dollar heros realize hunting has become an "emotional" issue and is better served by promoting values, heritage,and traditions instead of their bottom line. These are the things that attract new hunters... not better, faster, stronger. If we can do that, then our tent will have some walls.
Post by: et on December 13, 2007, 01:55:00 PM
No, Chuck we just want to preserve our time a field by committing to one method of hunting. Our hunting opportunities are being impacted by other user groups. Rather then telling them to stop we are willing to limit our selves to preserve what’s left. As it has been stated before we have a limited game supply. Yes, right now we can hunt during the rifle season with a bow, no problem doing so if one chooses. More areas are going to draw only which limits ones ability to even hunt an area. With more and more habitat loss and increasing pressure on game animals out west I hate to speculate what hunting for my son will be like. It sure would be nice if he can pick up a bow and hunt for a month, rather then attempting to draw a tag now and then or being forced to hunt on leased land with expensive land owner tags. What are the odds of a kid even going hunting in such a world?
I doubt that many hunt with a recurve because of Fred Bear, in fact Fred really isn't that great of a model in today’s bow hunting world (long shots, need for game on the ground to continue to promote his company, this has been hammered before).BUT he is an excellent model for folks who are willing to have an adventure while hunting, get out there and accept a challenge. He did a great job of promoting hunting in a manner that the general public respected, self reliant woodsman, heck he even seemed to show some respect for the animals he killed. The image Fred Bear conveyed harkened back to the sportsman that saved the game animals from extinction and were willing to set limits in order for them to thrive. One need not hunt with trad gear to be the hunter conservationist, and I haven’t heard anyone make that claim here.
Post by: vermonster13 on December 13, 2007, 02:10:00 PM
As far as the big tent, lot's like to drag it down, but how many are actually working to strengthen it? Takes much more effort to build than to tear down, but when you build you have something at the end.
Fred would have been just an excellent model with any weapon. The ethics are in the hunter not the weapon.
Post by: rnharris on December 13, 2007, 02:29:00 PM
the anti's have very deep pockets they are after guns right now when they get those they will be after my black widow let's don't be distracted with the minor things like special seasons and the like.Look at Europe you can't even bowhunt over there in some places.
I agree 100% that it starts and ends with integrity in and out of the woods.
Post by: Molson on December 13, 2007, 03:01:00 PM
That is just not the real world though. This conversation is one-sided. I do not see any modern manufacturers promoting hunting today. They promote their equipment as better, easier, faster, and so on. They do not promote a history or an ethic, or for that matter, responsibility.
People walk into a store and buy a crossbow or muzzleloader or even a trad bow. They walk out without any instruction whatsoever as to how to conduct themselves in the field with that equipment. Who is the Big Tent? These manufacturers are visible representitives of our sport and this is what they do??? Put TV shows on that show nothing of heritage, adventure, hardiness, or self-improvement??? Geez.....Compare a Fred Bear film to what we have today. You tell me what's more attractive.
I wish the Big Tent was real, I really do. I want to see it work. But when this is how everyone acts, they are nothing more than an empty sack waiting to take what you have for fill.
Where is Martin, Browning, Hoyt, PSE??? Easton...you out there??? Where are their sponsorship dollars to sites like this?
Post by: vermonster13 on December 13, 2007, 03:06:00 PM
The big tent is best represented by the USSA and the NRA and they are out there doing things that need to be done.
This forum is Trad Gangs way of helping folks become informed. We need to educate ourselves if we hope to have a future and to educate the voting public.
Post by: et on December 13, 2007, 03:52:00 PM
rnharris, I couldn't agree more. This discussions get's painful because in all likely hood everyone posting here agrees on most hunting issues and would be good hunting companions or at least enjoyable company on the 3d range. My problem with the Big Tent is that it seems to excuse behavior and has little incentive for people to exercise responsibility or integrity. It has been good as a reactionary tool when hunting is under attack. It doesn't seem very good at proactively recruiting hunters or presenting hunters in a manner that the general public respects.
I would like to see more of an effort to promote the hunter/conservationist, our history that gives us validity in the public eye. The recent National Geographic article, IMO, is what needs to be constantly out there in the public.(minus the poacher=hunter foul up) Support for organizations such as BHA, Orion institute, DU, RMEF etc.
We focus on bringing our youth into the folds which is great but still not replacing the hunters lost. In my neck of the woods the greatest recruitment seems to be coming from of all places the late 20's early 30's male who has recreated in the wild for years, self described environmentalist and quite possibly a past anti hunter. Not the anti hunter who wants to ban hunting but a person who would never want to be identified with the bubbling gun toting folks who only go to the hills during the rifle season. These folks are ripe for recruitment when the hunter/conservationist is presented to them. It takes a while for them to see past the bubblies and realize that they are a minority of hunters.
The Big Tent(at least my understanding of it) does little to attract such people and quite frequently is a determent, in my little corner of the world. Their motivation for hunting is frequently for the healthy meat, acceptance of their role in the natural world which includes death and after having observed nature for years wanting to participate in our predator/ prey relationship.
Many of those NOLS, Outward bound kids that frequently are the butt of jokes in the hunting community are actually coming into the hunters fold. The anything goes as long as it's legal dose not sit well with them, Fair Chase does. Big Tent theory creates, IMO, many "closet hunters" those who hunt but are quite about it because they don't want to get be part of a group that puts the act of killing above Fair Chase and sacrifices long term opportunity with short term rewards. Giving the "closet hunters" a voice and going back to our roots as hunters, is attractive to this generation of hunters.
I am looking forward to seeing where this discussion goes. I'm off to climb and ski with long haired, bearded, granola crunching, gun hunting Wyoming folks for the next few days.
et
Post by: Molson on December 13, 2007, 04:30:00 PM
It just irritates me to no end that today's modern archery and pro shops do not promote the sport like they used to. They've got to make money and we need dollars for support. No doubt. But they're lost on the education front. What's most disappointing is that this is what sets the attitudes of todays modern archer and, to a point, trickles down to trad.
When I was young and first started bowhunting with a compound, I went three or four years without taking a deer. Not for lack of opportunity, but because I did not want my bow season to end. We only had a single deer tag in those days. I wanted a deer on the last day of the season so I didn't lose any time afield. It was all about the excitement of being out with a bow and what might happen. Real bowhunters, as opposed to those who hunt with a bow, know what I mean by this. Where is that attitude today?
The whole thing is rather frustrating. I just hate to see something special, and I'm talking about all bowhunting, become so diluted and ordinary. Traditional archery at least tries to keep the "Bowhunting Spirit" alive. I just wish the others would too.
Anyway...Now I'm depressed....Where's the whiskey...
Post by: Brian Krebs on December 13, 2007, 04:50:00 PM
I am not sure of the contract obligations when he sold his business. But I can tell you what he said when he saw me with my bear takedown recurve. He said "that's the kind of bow I shoot". I had seen all kinds of pictures of him with a compound; and said; "I thought you used a compound."
He struck back swift and sure : he said " no- I don't!" " I am #%$- @)%# sorry I ever picked one of those &$#* things up!!".
He told me he "had to pose" for those pictures.
I am sorry; but he DID live in a time when he COULD have hunted with a compound if he wanted too. He had every bow in the world available to him; and he hunted to his dying day with a traditional bow.
Yep he did some things we might frown on now; but he was a great guy and a great representative of bowhunting. And he hated compounds !!!!!
He was human. He did make some mistakes in judgement from time to time- like everyone else that is human. But he was a stellar human being; and a stellar bowhunter.
He also once told me that "When they make bows that shoot an arrow faster than 300 feet per second- it will not be bowhunting anymore."
We are there.
Post by: vermonster13 on December 13, 2007, 04:58:00 PM
Post by: Brian Krebs on December 13, 2007, 05:12:00 PM
I tired real hard to explain the specific situation I am in where I live. I can look right now out the window and see elk walking around. I cannot hunt them. I have a tag for this unit; but this zone is closed for elk hunting; yet across the river( the frozen 'river of no return' Salmon river) I can hunt.
Its four arrow tosses away from where I am typing right now.
So I quite literally have to drive down my driveway; shoo the elk out of my alfalfa for my pack animals; and drive 30 miles to have a chance to shoot an elk.
The biologists say there is a good reason to have a bow season here.
It is the opinions of rifle hunters and bowhunters that do not hunt with traditional bows: that are keeping a season from opening. Our representative fish and game commissioner is for it; and hunts with a traditional bow. He says its pure jealousy from other bowhunters.
See: a person that gets a tag for another area for elk cannot come up here to hunt elk. Just the people with a tag for this unit.
The majority of bowhunters do not hunt here. They are basing their decision solely on the idea that there would be a season that they could not hunt in; and that is that- period. Even though unless they had a tag for this unit... they could not hunt here anyway.
Whew. I am not spewing out anger; just frustration :saywhat:
As far as this:
This is the way I'm starting to see this.....
1) Elk---------- there are big bucks in rut right now too that I would love to hunt too. :)
2)Special Seasons -- this is a state so full of special seasons that you need a lawyer to figure them out- one more would not break the camels back. We have traditional muzzleloader seasons; and cow only seasons; and bull only seasons; and short range weapons seasons; and any weapon seasons. Not asking for the moon here :bigsmyl: The elk here on this side of the river are elk from Montana for the most part; and they are taking up wintering ground for the Idaho elk. The biologists from Montana and Idaho agree they need to be thinned out... why can I not do it?
By the way the wolves follow the elk to my hay; and kill my livestock. I will be feeding elk all winter: while my tummy aches for elk meat.
:banghead:
Post by: Scott J. Williams on December 13, 2007, 05:27:00 PM
I take no offense, nor do I take back anything I said. You threw the first punch anyway with that comment about people thinking themselves special.
ET, and a number of others have it right. I hunt with gun hunters too, not by choice, but because if I am going to hunt that is what I must do.
I guess, by your statement, that you would be hunting with a bow during gun season if there were never any bow seasons? I don't think you would. In fact it was not Traditional Bowhunting when I started, it was Bow Hunting. B.C. Before compounds. I don't give a darn if a person wants to hunt with a gun or a compound. The Big Tent approach is only brought up when the majority of the people under it thinks the way they do.
I will not sit here and say that the NRA, and others have not done well for hunters and firearms owners. Having said that, they are not focused on the things that will make Traditional Bowhunting better, or preserve it. I am not sure why people are so quick to throw away tradition.
P.S.E. sells a few traditional bows, but that is not their bread and butter, so to think that they are promoting Traditional Bowhunting would be foolish, in fact if it went south they would not care.
Hear me well, the addition of a Traditional only season, as I stated(I started this thread so I know what the hell I said)is in no way a reduction in the other seasons. It has in most places results in lands set aside for people wishing to take part in that type of hunt, while the general season is on going.
So why are you so against it, what gives you the right to tell me how or in what way I should hunt?
Fear not, you did not upset me or offend me. I am a 25 year vet of the Houston Police Department, I have had people try to run over me, shoot me, and beat me to death. I don't think our disagreement has much effect on me.
You and I will agree to disagree, send me a private message and we can chew the fat further.
Post by: laddy on December 14, 2007, 01:59:00 AM
2. A traditional only season would bring criticism from gun hunters. So what, are they a different species? I have been criticized by gun hunters since I was seven years old, the year I shot my first rabbit. Does their choice of weapon make them superior to me? Hardly. The same arguments go on where those outward bound kids play up north. It's a canoe only wilderness, and for years the power boaters complain," it's not fair what about us?" The answer is simple, if groups of inner city girls can survive and have fun in the Canadian wilderness for two weeks, so can they. Learn how to take it and paddle a canoe like a girl. Those who are going to rip all over trad only special seasons should take it and learn how to paddle a canoe like a girl or get a longbow.
Post by: Scott J. Williams on December 14, 2007, 12:19:00 PM
I agree, I discussed the same with my "Traditional Bowhunting" Fiancee' who by the way was once a die hard gun hunter and never touched a compound. She is new to the sport, and sees through all the B.S.
I am near retirement, we have decided to move back north and purchase some land. The people associated with BOW, Being an Outdoors Woman, have a progam that is working. We will alter the template a little and gear it to the youth you just mentioned, we will also run a bowhunting operation where "Ethics", Woodsmanship, and "Conservation will be taught to any and all who are interested.
We decided that it would not be limit to youths only, as there is a large group of people, who could use the education in those areas. She put it so well when she said, "the quest for the biggest has so corrupted the sport, moving it toward the lowest common denominator." "You don't see hunters anymore, regardless of tool, we have it in traditional bowhunters also, you see shooters, killers."
"They have no understanding of nature, and could not care less." "I have watched many of them, they can't sharpen a broadhead, or a hunting knife." "They can't even blood trail their own animals, and heaven forbid if they have to gut it themselves".
She has real insight into the problem, she also said this, "It takes more than killing game to make a person a hunter, and just because you shoot a traditional bow doesn't make you a traditional bowhunter." My baby then made this comment, "The thing that gets me upset with other people when they find out that I hunt with a longbow is this, they look at me and ask me why I don't shoot a compound, or rifle." Samantha then says, so typical, "why should I do that?" The most common response she gets is, "it is easier."
We do what we do, the way we do it, not because it is easy, but because it is hard. Samantha looked me in the eye and said, "why shouldn't I be proud, and feel special regarding the way that I hunt." When I use my woodsmanship skills to get with fifteen yards and make a kill, I am special." "What is special mean anyway, it is something that is out of the norm or unusual, a task that is undertaken that is more difficult than that which is accepted or commonly done."
I love the flavor of wild game, if I go a season without filling a tag, so what. I can't say that I have enjoyed the times when my arrow put one down, more than the hunts or seasons when no arrow was loosed.
I don't have to kill, I don't even take photos of my kills have the time. While we don't shout from the mountain tops that we hunt with stickbows, we are sure that anyone watching us will see a ethical, respectful couple, who still are humbled by the wonders of Gods creation in nature.
I can send money to others to fight for my rights, and I do. I still perfer to do my part, one person at a time. If everyone would try it, we would not need the big tent.
Post by: Brian Krebs on December 14, 2007, 01:47:00 PM
"I don't think we really want to go into Fred or any of those who came before and made a living selling bows. Let's focus on the everyday folks who actually keep hunting alive today."
Fred Bear does keep hunting alive today. People see my bow; or hear that I hunt with a longbow; and comment - "kind of like that Fred Bear- now he was a bowhunter!". I get that a lot. People that hunt with bow or rifle know who Fred Bear was. Perhaps because they remember; perhaps because comments are made on hunting shows about him by Will Primos and others - on a regular basis.
Point is they see Fred Bear: in a good light.
Can we talk about Howard Hill? He made money off the sale of bows. So did Jack Howard; so did Ben Pearson. So did Dan Quillian.
Who are the people that are trying to keep traditional bowhunting alive now? How many really good examples of not only bowhunting but humanity exist now that sell traditional bows?
Should we talk about them in a positive way- or exempt them from discussion because they make money off of selling bow equipment?
I agree with Scott. If we did our part - one person at a time- we would be better off than by only standing behind a group of people: that perhaps do not have- any concern or interest- in our way of hunting.
I am not on the path of bowhunting that we see on television shows; or see in target shooting with compounds. I think a lot of them would follow a different path...if they understood the path that we are on.
It is not an elitist path; it is not a fast path to success. It is one where we remember and honor those before us; like the guy who stuck a twig or a feather in his hat - just small things that reminded him to slow down and enjoy the little beautiful things as part of the hunt.
Me thinks a lot of people here should go to the archives and read what Fred Bear and Jack Howard and others said about bowhunting. Maybe pick back up the old book 'a sand county almanac'. Or read about Ishi.
These people are part of our roots; roots that go back that we know of 7,500 years. If we were restricted to hunting with the same bow that was pulled out of the bog that dated back 7,500 years; everyone here could hunt and be happy. In fact most of us shoot a bow that is dang close to being the same as that bow.
I like taking my traditional bow; and stepping back in time and experiencing as much of what I can; as those hunters so very long ago; and those of my childhood that still are alive in me: when I hunt.
Having a separate classification of bowhunting; that holds tightly to the idea that not only taking game is part of bowhunting; but picking up a twig and sticking in our hat to remind us of the little things we see when we have time to see them- is not unreasonable. I think it is indeed quite logical.
In a time where baseball players shortcuts endanger the concept of what baseball is: I think it is wise and prudent to say who we are and what is precious to us about our activity.
I want to say it loud and clear; so everyone can hear it. Not to be pious or elite. Just so that people understand where I come from and how I feel about traditional bowhunting.
If that makes me or us separate in some way from others that hunt- so be it.
I have met compound hunters and rifle hunters and muzzleloader hunters that all have great ethics and great aspirations. They have certain core principals that we share. I don't think we should hesitate at all to state what we all have in common; and what directions we are going in.
:campfire: :archer:
Post by: vermonster13 on December 14, 2007, 01:54:00 PM
Post by: vermonster13 on December 14, 2007, 01:55:00 PM
Post by: Molson on December 14, 2007, 04:05:00 PM
Post by: vermonster13 on December 14, 2007, 04:29:00 PM
Post by: Jesse Minish on December 15, 2007, 12:13:00 AM
Jesse
Post by: Jesse Minish on December 15, 2007, 12:52:00 AM
Jesse
Post by: Brian Krebs on December 16, 2007, 01:17:00 AM
What some people do not see is that the opportunities we had in Idaho twenty years ago to hunt with a bow are less than they are now.
This was done with the approval of bowhunters; who insist that they should be able to keep their bow season: and as well their rifle seasons.
And I do not argue that.
I do not hunt with a gun; I do not hunt in the anyweapon seasons. I have been in the woods during these seasons; and I do not feel comfortable at all being in the woods in them.
I would gladly give up the hours available for me to hunt in the any weapon season- for equal time in a traditional bow only season.
Its not that there are not great ethical hunters out there with rifles and other weapons. The problem is that there are a lot of hunters out there - a whole lot; and I just do not enjoy a woods full of hunters and panicked animals.
Here is one aspect; and that is the general unwritten rules of bowhunting and rifle hunting.
In bowhunting; (as I have long understood); is that the first person to draw blood on an animal gets to claim the animal. With a bow; you shoot the animal; and normally it runs off and dies.
I have had record book bucks come into range that were already fatally shot; and I only added an arrow IF the wound was one- that was not going to kill the animal- in a rapid manner.
And then I waited for the original shooter; or back tracked the animal and found the shooter- and took them to the deer for them to claim.
That just makes sense to me.
In rifle hunting; the guy that drops the deer gets the unwritten right to claim it.
I once had a huge buck walk by me; and I did not shoot it; as it was rifle season; and if I had bow shot it; and it had run off fatally wounded... there was a gigantic chance someone else would shoot it as it ran off; and put their tag on it.
Well; now - now I have talked to bowhunters that figure the first person to the deer: has the right to tag it.
Point is there are two ethical fields of thought out there; and I don't want to shoot an animal: for someone else to tag. I don't have to imagine this happening; its happened to me - more than once while I was a rifle hunter.
I prefer the bow season.
However there are people out there bowhunting that are only there for the added opportunity; and do not understand bowhunting as we talk about it here.
I have heard these people talk about proficiency testing*; and how they would give up bowhunting if they had to make a choice between bowhunting and rifle hunting.
I DO NOT WANT THESE PEOPLE TO REPRESENT TRADITIONAL BOWHUNTERS !!
This might boil down to a 'give me liberty or give me death' speech - but so be it.
I do not want people that say they are representing bowhunting; when they mean bowhunting with a compound - and are weak kneed enough to sacrifice traditional bow hunters: in the hopes of accomplishing the goal of keeping 'hunting'.
AND THOSE PEOPLE EXIST.
I will not brown nose those- that do not have any dedication to keeping traditional bowhunting-- in the hopes they will be ~nice~ to us; and stand for us: in future fights about hunting rights.
In a tent; you hide from the elements.
I prefer existing ~despite~ the elements.
If there is a place to have traditional bowhunts - that do not interfere with game management goals; why should there NOT be such seasons.
If it is due to fear- I really don't want whoever is saying that: to represent traditional bowhunting.
At some time we WILL have to defend traditional bowhunting; and I have no problem doing that; over shivering in fear of the future - while I hunt with a traditional bow.
I have no shame over the past of traditional bowhunting. I have no shame over what Fred Bear did in his life; or what Howard Hill did; or Ben Pearson or the Thompsons did- or what Pope and Young did.
Different times? Not really. What I do is what the Native Americans did. Our history does not start with the first white man to shoot a bow. It starts with the first arrow shot; and that was at least 7,500 years ago.
All I demand: is that the tradition continues.
*try reading in the archives about how Jack Howard describes the folly of 'proficiency testing' !
Post by: Jesse Minish on December 16, 2007, 01:54:00 AM
Jesse
Post by: laddy on December 16, 2007, 05:37:00 AM
Post by: tim roberts on December 25, 2007, 12:15:00 PM
Our greatest asset as traditional bowhunters is showing that it can be done, is showing others that the true meaning of a trophy isn't measured in the height and width of a set of antlers or horns, its showing that to some it is still about the journey not the destination. Its using these examples to lure others into our ranks and help us keep alive the "Traditional Values" of hunting.
So again not only NO, but HELL NO!
Post by: draco on December 27, 2007, 12:18:00 AM
Post by: draco on December 27, 2007, 12:47:00 AM
Ever since compounds were invented,every place I`ve hunted,every hunt I`ve made,I was the only trad hunter there. I`ve took a lot of ribbing,some mean,most in good fun. I`ve done my share of ribbing too. But now,all these years later,every one I hunt with shoots a stick. Some have changed over,some have started with them.
I dont hunt this way for any other reason but this is what archery is to me. I dont see that I`m at a handicap. A separate season just says were not as effective with our choice of equipment as they are and gives food for thought for antihunters. Dont separate us from them,get them to join us.
Post by: Brian Krebs on December 28, 2007, 03:09:00 AM
So many of our viewpoints are due to regional differences. I can only take one deer per year-for instance.
I also buy an elk tag that allows me to hunt during the rifle season (which I cannot force myself to enjoy as a bowhunter); and with a traditional muzzleloader for cow elk in another season.
I am willing to exchange the any weapon season hunt; and the traditional muzzeloader hunt; for a season for traditional bowhunting: for the same amount of days.
It would not take away time from anyone; it is biologically sound ( according to the biologists).
I fail to see why it is not a viable idea???
The rifle hunters were the first anti-bowhunters; and I care not to side with them. I understand the biological need; and the way they inhance the intent of the 2nd ammendment. I enjoyed rife season until I hunted in a quiet woods.
I have met great hunters that hunted only with a gun. I have met great hunters that hunt only with a compound. That is not at issue.
I intend to defend them all when under attack.
If they cannot find the ideology to do the same for me.... then I find it more an honest positioning; wanting at least- the definition of traditional bowhunter- to exist.
Post by: et on December 28, 2007, 12:11:00 PM
In order to appease bow hunters, F&G worked out a Zone system that allowed archers to retain their ability to rifle hunt if they are unsuccessful with the bow. I am willing to give up my rifle hunt to be able to drive up to Brain’s neighborhood and hunt for another couple of weeks. I would be doing this to increase my time a field not to have a better opportunity kill an elk. I am surprised that "time a field" doesn’t seem to have value to those that are against the idea of a Trad only tag.
In my zone I have a 1 week spike hunt after the archery season. With a growing family and a passion for eating wild game I take advantage of this when I don't kill with my bow. Since the Zone system has been implemented I have killed an elk every year. I'm sure that my "success' rate would go down with a trad only tag but my days a field would go up, this is a sacrifice I am willing to make and I'm sure my rifle hunting friends would appreciate a few more spikes making it to adulthood. My (trad) archery friends that I hunt with have only failed to fill their tag once since the zone was implemented. Dang near isn't fair putting a rifle in a dedicated archers hands.
Draco, out West not being as effective( effective as defined by harvest data, not effectiveness once the arrow is underway, a very big difference to me) is going to be the key to maintain the ability to hunt yearly with out drawing a tag. The West/East schism is rather interesting and probably worthy of an essay by someone much more skilled then I am at expressing ones thoughts.
et
Post by: coffee on December 28, 2007, 10:17:00 PM
Post by: draco on December 29, 2007, 12:49:00 AM
et; I meant effective as in killing and not wounding. I worry that the anti`s will think we need this extra time because we ar`nt as capable at killing game as compound hunters. I think you and I both know thats not true but the anti`s dont.
From your posts I can difinitely see the situations in Idaho and Texas are vastly different. Here in Texas I would not vote for any more special seasons than we already have now. I just want more tags. Bob
Post by: Brian Krebs on December 29, 2007, 02:36:00 AM
Indeed. We need to work on that impression.
Post by: KodiakBob on December 29, 2007, 07:16:00 AM
Post by: Brian Krebs on December 30, 2007, 03:27:00 AM
I am a pretty good bowhunter; I have taken pope and young animals; and I have taken several big game species; and I have killed over 60 big game animals with a bow- in over 30 years of serious big game bowhunting; and hundreds of small game animals- in over 50 years of bowhunting.
Point is; that I sometimes do not kill an animal in an archery season. I disagree that not taking an animal: means I-or anyone else: should quit bowhunting.
I am not afraid to hunt in gun season- I just plain do not like the increased number of hunters.
However fear: would be an honest feeling to have in gun season. Its why virtually everywhere you go; gun hunters are required to wear orange.... and do note; bowhunters do not: in virtually all areas in archery seasons. When I rifle hunted; I had bullets zip by me more than once; and I have been hit by birdshot on many times. My son held on to his buddy a couple years ago; trying to stop his bleeding from a load of buckshot to the back-while waiting 45 minutes for the police and ambulance to arrive. There are bowhunting accidents; but not to compare in anyway with gun season accidents.
When I bear hunt; I sit on stand well past dark; and walk out a mile in the dark. I have had moose run at me; been attacked by a mountain lion while walking into an elk wallow hunting spot; and I carry a large scar- as a result of a bear swatting me.
I dont walk in the woods in fear- but if you hunt in camoflauge; while cow calling elk and bugling for elk- and would do so in gun season with your bow....like can happen here in Idaho-and NOT feel at least uncomfortable- then your just plain not being safe. IMHO
I see more and more people shooting bows that do not require any skill at reasonable bow ranges; and the desire by business interests to make that even more do-able.
I would like a separate season so that when the numbers of bowhunters that have no investment in hunting in a traditional way--can not have the numerical power to adversely affect bowhunting season lengths and perceptions.
I respect your opinion; just do not agree with what you said.
:campfire:
Post by: draco on January 03, 2008, 12:28:00 AM
Do you think it would be possible to get the definition of primitive archery equipment for the archery season changed instead of having a different season? Compound hunters could still hunt in the modern weapons season.
There is only so much time in the fall and early winter months to even have diferrent seasons that I was wondering if this was a viable alternative.
While hunting in New Mexico a game warden stopped by our camp at lunch and stayed for two hours talking. He told us that within ten years N.M. would not even have a modern gun season,only primitive musselloaders and there was already talk about the archery equipment as well. Same issues as yours,too many hunters and too much of a drain on game herds. When he decided to leave we asked him if he wanted to check our licences before he left. He said when he sees those kind of bows in a camp he knows everything is on the up and up. I took it as a compliment of the highest order. Then he told us to stay away from the roads as they had a lot of archery road hunters and there had been near accidents in the past.
I truly sympathize with you my friend. Good luck on your quest. Bob
Post by: vermonster13 on January 03, 2008, 08:09:00 AM
Post by: Brian Krebs on January 04, 2008, 03:43:00 AM
Some support they are !!!!!!
please don't reduce the logic of having the season to my personal anger.
It is an example of how rifle and compound bow hunters work against traditional bow hunters; and bowhunters period....to retain their rifle season.
Post by: Bear Heart on January 04, 2008, 10:31:00 PM
Post by: bowzonly on January 06, 2008, 10:14:00 AM
Thanks Bruce Garahan
Post by: Brian Krebs on January 06, 2008, 04:50:00 PM
We do not have 'archery only areas' we do have archery only hunts- - but there seems to be a difference.
Post by: doctari on January 08, 2008, 08:54:00 AM
Post by: laddy on January 08, 2008, 02:49:00 PM
Post by: vermonster13 on January 08, 2008, 03:32:00 PM