Trad Gang
Main Boards => Hunting Legislation & Policies => Topic started by: Dave2old on January 24, 2008, 02:24:00 PM
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At the very best of times, a writer can speak volumes in just a few words. Check out this link to one such article, about what is happening to the tradition of hunting in America. Then let's talk about it. Dave
http://www.jacksonholestartrib.com/articles/2008/01/24/features/open_spaces/955289fda5948373872573d900777a49.txt
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aint that the truth
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Dave,
I couldn't agree more. I've gone from traditional tackle to compound and now am firmly entrenched in primitive archery. Everybody is looking for that next level of technology which will ensure success at every turn. Yuk!
I enjoy the fact that I have made all parts of my tackle and can lay the success or failure of my hunt squarely on my sholders and not whine about lack of back-up battery time.
I beleive there is more movement toward this type of hunting and archery, but you won't see it on tv. Why, because we're not selling anything. If you have questions, you will recieve answers, not some prepackaged DVD. If you need help, you will recieve instruction and guidance, not some new-fangled, turbowidget made in China and sealed in clear plastic. That's what makes this side of the aisle really great. People who readily give of their time, their talants and wisdom.
I wouldn't do it any other way. So let China sell all their megahunter super packages to the gizmo and gadget geeks. I'll learn how to myself slow and careful, making great friendships all along the way. :campfire:
-Brett
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It's an issue, or rather a whole constellation of issues, that span nearly every part of the political spectrum nowadays: community/family/individual dependency vs community/family/individual independence--global economy vs. local economy, etc.
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"The writer pretty much sums it up, doesn't he. On the one hand, habitat and access to it are shrinking, and in some cases, the number of animals as well, and the average Joe or Jane is being priced out of the market. On the other, "hunters," hunting equipment manufacturers and media, spurred by greed and technology, are creating a more and more unfavorable image of hunters and hunting.
Where does this lead? Severe restrictions on hunting, and perhaps even the elimination of it, at least as most of us know it. Access is already being increasingly limited through lottery systems, high license fees, land leases, private land landlocking public land, the requirement to hire a guide in Canadian provinces, to name a few. A number of states have already banned hunting for specific species.
Powerful national organizations like the Humane Society attack hunting through the courts and mount massive PR campaigns to influence the non-hunting public, and legislators, against hunting. Outdoor TV and magazines give them plenty of ammunition. Ultimately, it will be the non-hunting public at the ballot box that will determine whether hunting survives. Though largely apathetic, if those who vote can be persuaded, hunting's days are numbered.
I suppose I have a more pessimistic view than most, but I feel it's not a matter of if hunting will be immensely constrained or eliminated, but rather when. It's the logical conclusion to the forces already in motion. And it appaers highly unlikely that those forces will be stopped or turned around. To paraphrase Winston Churchill, "Man will now and then stumble upon the truth, but most times, he'll pick himself up and carry on."
The writing is on the wall. Hunting is no longer perceived by most as the noble, spiritual activity it still is for some of us. We are in the minority in terms of numbers and resources, and both are dwindling. For these and a lot of other reasons, we, hunting and the game we hunt will probably lose.
Somebody please say something to give me some hope."
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Take someone new hunting. If we don't pass on our great sport to new people and our kids, it will die. This will give you a chance to demonstrate responsible, ethical and legal hunting as well as adding a new friend to your list. Hope exists as long as were willing to do our part, too. Pass it on!
:campfire:
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We as any type hunter can be we are our own enemy. Is it because we are lazy or always the quicker way that we are searching for? Why learn to use a compass I have a GPS, why walk I can take the ATV. Actual hunting takes place in 1/2 hour I see it on TV all the time and its always bigger animals than most I have ever seen. The majority of TV hunts do take place on private acreage.I believe I have only seen Eichler and Larry Jones ever shoot a doe. We need to continually police ourselves and others.I have to believe we will always be able to hunt otherwise I won't be able to dream in bed.Night :pray:
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I read the article; and its no secret I think we need to concentrate less on people that are out only to kill; and more on those that just are deeply into the hunt; and the overall experience.
Which can include of course hunting really big trophy animals.
But on the page with the article was a note that the page was availible in braille. I can think of several reasons that would be a good idea for this site.
Several. Is there a way to do it?
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Unfortunately modern society's desire for "instant gratification" has reared its ugly head everywhere. Man now strives to make everything we do as easy as possible with as little effort needed. We prefer to sit on our arse and push buttons. Why exert ourselves?
We have evolved from hunter - gatherers into one stop shoppers at the "Supercenter". Most people don't know or even care where there food comes from or what is even in it.
Now that this insanity has found it's way into all aspects of life we see that it has bled it's way into the hunting community also. I hope that it gets squashed quickly but fear that it will only get worse.
No Thanks! Fair chase for me. I'll continue to use my own legs, stick + string and a sharp broadhead to hunt the animals that I have immense respect for. I prefer to be up close and personnal with the animals that I pursue.
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It will get a whole lot worse before it gets better. It will become a sport for the rich. Unfortunately, illegal hunting will become more prevalent as the regular Joe or Jane simply can't afford to hunt a lease. Finally, regular folks will get fed up with it all and maybe things will turn back around. We'll see.
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There are alot of things threatening hunting as we know it.
I believe it will be negative public perception that will be our eventual undoing. Along the way, lack of recruitment of young hunters, and high costs of access, and license fees will speed up the process.
I honestly believe that paying high fees to apply for hunts out of state, and the eventual
ridiculus fees that are paid to go hunt is the biggest immediate threat. Ain`t nobody taking a kid on those hunts. He/she is home playing video games while dad/mom is away on a dream hunt.
When mom/dad get home from their dream hunt, they don`t have time to take a kid hunting close to home. They need to get to work, cause they are broke.
Wildlife agencies KNOW that hunting is biologically necessary, and that without the money from hunting they have no budget. This may be our weapon to ensure hunting for the future.
Like the others that visit this site, I`m doing my part. My kids go with me whenever, wherever I go. I have even begaun taking a few of their friends. They may be late for the school bus, but when you go to pick them up for hunting or fishing, they are never late.
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In a lot of places, the beginning of the article is what some have come to call hunting.
It is shooting for a price.
Hunting involves some aspect of pursuit, and the hunter seeking the game, whether scouting the best location to put a stand on a trail, or hoofing it over hill and dale.
These are the good old days right now, enjoy them while they last.
Will hunting go away? Not as long as there are those who savor wild animals in wild places and the pursuit of the former in the latter.
Gary
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A couple weeks ago I attended my State Archery organization, to which I am one of the regional officers. The state organization (California Bow Hunters and State Archery Association) was looking into hiring a lobbyist to represent our interests in Sacramento, (the state capital). As the Lobbyist was giving his presentation to us he cited a number which was a real wake-up call, although he did not intend it to be used as such. He cited approximately 36 million people in California (lets not even talk about the undocumented millions more) and cited 340,000 hunting licenses sold in the State of California last year. Holy smokes! That's less than 1% of the population that hunts or at least bought a hunting license. While it seams like that entire 1% hunts near me when I'm in the woods and yes I understand that many hunters hunt out of state and/or out of country never even paying for a CA license, still the numbers are significant. Politically if only 1% of the population is interested in any given activity the legislature has a hard time allocating resources to the interest of that 1%.
For most of us on this web sight, hunting is a passion, a way of life and absolutely critical to whom we are as people. But we must remember that most people do not understand us, do not care to take the time to understand the issues surrounding our special interest and only remember that one bad act committed by some fool. Case in point, there has been a fairly frequent news article on the TV during the past few weeks about some jackass who shot an arrow through a Pelican's beak. The arrow is a field point, fletched with vanes and appears (from the chrome crimp-on tip) to be a child's arrow. The danged bird can't open his mouth since the arrow has pierced both the upper and lower jaw. Almost nightly the newsies are good enough to show the dwindling condition of that bird. This is what sticks in the mind of the tree huggers of the left coast.
I have to agree with Orion above. Seams like my way of life is doomed. We'll fight to hold off the anti's as long as possible but in the next generation or so hunting will not be as we know it....and overall it will be the animals whom are the big losers.
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Mike O,
Yes, the numbers are scary but think of the power that the 2% of the hunters hold who have the money to dictate such foolishness. They have lobbyist who promote the any thing goes mentality and the rest of us are "antis" for raising our voices against the commercialization of hunting. My way of life will only be doomed when hunters subscribe to practices that remove the hunt from hunting or when there are no longer public lands where hunting is available. I can afford to hunt leased land but I would rather stop hunting then prescribe to behaviors that undermine the foundation of American Hunting. Public access to land and hunting opportunities that promote conservation of our natural resources are our key stones. Every year our standards of Fair Chase erode under the banner of recruitment, an odd percentage of hunters population vs. the aggregate that if we where to achieve that mythical number , we would have to wait many a year just to draw a “bunny” tag.
(Yes, I made up the 2% in my opening sentence. I pray it isn’t greater)
et
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Eric,
I have no disagreement with anything you said. I see you're home base is Idaho. I try to hunt Idaho each year...and yes I wish that I lived in Idaho rather than the concrete jungles of Southern California. In time I'll get to leave this mess. The fact is though, that each year our country migrates more folks away from the rural and suburban to the urban life. That's largely why the Democrats control urban America and the Republicans control the rest of the country. I am personally scared at what I see is the future of hunting as the numbers of the masses of people seam to be less and less concerned about Fish and Game issues. It's possible that one day you and I will be called criminals for pursuing our desire to hunt. That probably won't happen in Idaho as quickly as it happens in California....
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Like Mike said, small percentages sometimes make big obstacles. 1% of the citizens of California buy a hunting license....whewwww! What would be the percentage of trad bowhunters of the population? Wow!
In Montana, 28% of the citizens buy a hunting license, 3% buy an archery license.
Thanks goodness the wildlife is managed by the states and not the feds.
Gary
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i wonder what can be done to create more interest in hunting, archery?
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Take a kid hunting. Take someone who used to hunt but has a difficult time doing it alone hunting. Start a program that donates venison to the needy in your area. Become a hunting safety instructor so more classes can be offered near you. Writ your politicians on issues important to hunting and let them know how you feel. Take the bow that's not getting shot and put it into the hands of someone who has desire but not the means. Lot's of ways to keep hunting moving forward but they take effort on our part to make happen.
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What people may not realize who are focused on hunting is that participation by young people is down in all outdoor activities that require a substantial time commitment. My wife and I do a lot of backpacking in the Sierra's and Wind River's, and I would say the average person we see on the trail is about 50 years old. We see the same thing in mountaineering, with about the same average age in the California Mountaineering Club. On the other hand, there are a lot of young people in the climbing gyms or rockclimbing on the local craigs where you can be in and out in a few hours or less.
My son is starting in the business world, and when I was his age, we would play a lot of golf. But now they don't have time for things that would take all morning to do. They go to the gym for an hour or run. Nothing wrong with that, I guess, just a sign of the times.
I think they are raised to expect instant gratification, instant communication, and they probably have more demands on them at work than we used to have. And of course, they spend a lot of time either on the internet or playing computer games.
So while it is probably true that those who find hunting to be distasteful are a little more vocal than they used to be, and it is certainly true that our increasing population is putting more pressure on habitat, there are also some more general forces at work that are keeping people away from time consuming activities.
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Vermonster, I think I'm beginning to get this. Thanks for the help.
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In some areas hunting access is such a pain that it is difficult to take kids hunting, if there is no adventure in it there is little interest. I think people are at times brain washed into thinking they can buy peace of mind, they can buy success, and we all know that money can buy exclusive rights to hunting land that is off limits to the common man. Can it buy that feeling of freedom and adventure that Aldo Leopold sought? I don't think it can.
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Good deal Fred.
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Makes me want to pull out Leopolds "A Sand County Almanac" and read it again.
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Dave,
Good article...thanks. In my mind, it goes farther than hunting alone. It's our whole society, and it boils down to one word...EXCESS. Everything has to be bigger, faster, louder, easier, and more externally stimulating. I firmly believe it'll be the end of us eventually. I agree with what others have said here...teach a child to love the outdoors, teach a child to hunt and fish ethically, teach a child to make the outdoor experience a centerpiece for their life. This is the only way we'll perpetuate sensible hunting and protect our environment. As for me...I'm teaching three. Good luck to the rest of you.
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I've got a friend who's a real hunting fanatic.
Since I've never hunted, I loved listening to his stories.
Then he won a grizzly hunting trip thru some website. He was thrilled about having a dream hunt. He decided to bring his bow (compound) instead of his gun, because he wanted it to be really "challenging". The guy is my weight but 8" shorter than me and I'm no lightweight. I asked what he was going to do to get in shape for the Rocky mountains. He said there was no problem, since they'd be each have an ATV! He said the guide told him that the area where my friend's blind
would be would give him a good shot at a Pope and Young trophy!
3 months before the trip, he had never been to the place and he had a good chance at a P & Y trophy? He doesn't have to deal with the terrain?
He's being led to the "trophy" and the blind he's never seen was built 3 months in advance?
Where's the HUNT? I thought the trophys were for being an exceptional HUNTER! I never asked how he did.
After all, I shoot a big Grizzly every weekend ... on my 3-D course ... and I walk to the bear.
Hunts like this or the one's on the Versus channel
turn me off. I think they do that to a lot of other people, too.
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I take kids turkey hunting, what they like about it is the gobbles and mostly stump shooting where ever walk. You just have to get them outside, canoeing is great way to get a kid outside and slowed down enough so they can start taking things in. Jet skis, snowmobiles, and four wheelers are not the same. They need something that keeps them interested and occupied that allows them to feel like they are part of wild. Just like I like to hunt along side a stream or river, I love watching the river go by. I find kids are pretty much the same, you just have to slow 'em down a little.
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I take kids on bear hunting trips for free. I think its a good idea to do that when we can.
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Guys-
I think part of the problem is hunting is no longer democratic, we have allowed it to become big business and businees isn't democratic. Business is about making money. The North American Conservation Model was started by folks like George Bird Grinnel, Gifford Pinchot and of course Teddy Roosevelt. It didn't serve the needs of the wealthy few, it served the needs of the common man. We went from scarse game to an abundance of game in less than a century, by a conservation ethic that says wildlife is a public trust resource. PUBLIC - not private. Businesses are private and seek to reap financial gain. As long as we allow easy to be thought of as better and as long as all we do is try to recruit youth we will lose our hunting. Recruitment is vital but we must also recruit the non-hunter, through thoughtful discourse and education. We also must police from with in, if we don't help raise the bar who will?
Hatrick do reread "Sand County Almanac" and share it both with a youth and a non-hunter. Doing so has lead to some interesting discussions for me.
I know I am preaching - and to the choir but we do need to be proactive if we are to save the wildlife for the public.
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as a videographer all i can say is,money talks!we all share in the american dream and we are all looking to make our quality of life better in one sense or another or we'd all be on some type of government assistance.its our own fault in a sense because we make it possible for people to take advantage of what we have learned and know from either learning these skills the hard way or having them passed down to us from fathers and grandfathers.think before you do!(example)you've scouted an area before hand and patterned a nice buck or heard turkeys in an area that has no pressure,your talking with someone and they express to you that either they themselves or a child would enjoy the opp. to hunt and out of the goodness of our hearts we agree to showing them the pleasures of the great outdoors,that child or person harvests that animal with your help,he or she has no idea what it took to make that harvest a reality,we feel about ourselves and the fact of the matter is that we've cheated them out of the opp.to do for themselves.
you can give them the fishing pole but don't catch the fish for them!RIGHT or WRONG we've created this WELFARE NATION.when you give people an unearned advantage over others you either become a guide or a POLITICIAN.i had a sucessful season,my freezer is empty of whitetail venison but my do-it-myself elk is ohhhh so sweet!
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I agree that money talks - so do people. Big money didn't want Roosevelt to set aside so much public land so they tried to stop him and to a degree they did. It was the common man that helped get Pittman- Robertson passed - in 90 days!!!. Our North American Conservation Model is the envy of others. Now big money wants to make it easier to kill - not to hunt in my opinion. Big money wants to claim our game for their profit. If we really want to save hunting we need to talk - to speak up and to move against big money. Please don't forget that we almost wiped out our native game in the late 1800's. It took the efforts of many to get the state and federal governemnt to help conserve our resourses. We are reaping the benefits of our forefathers efforts.
"The 'greatest good of the greatest number'applies to the number within the womb of time, compared to which those alive form but an insignificant fraction. Our duty to the whole, including the unborn generations, bids us restrain an unprincipled present-day moinority from wasting the heritage of these unborn generations" Teddy Roosevelt
Creating financial gain for the few at the expense of the many sounds more like an aristocracy than the democracy. It takes talking louder and stronger by the many to talk louder than money. We owe this to ourselves and more importantly our unborn generations.
" The North American conservation is outstanding for many reasons.... Unlike earlier historic movements in Africa, Asia and Europe, which were almost consistently tied to an exclusivity tradition, spurred by caste notions...in Greek and Roman culture, by monarchist traditions of the Middle Ages, or by the aristocratic world views of the post-Renaissance and colonial periods, the 'in situ' emergence of our tradition was based explicity on inclusivity. Wildlife and Access to it was to be in the public domain, by law." Shane Mahoney Canadian wildlife biologist.
"...to preserve game...for...all lovers of nature, and to give reasonable opportunities for the exercise of the skill of the hunter, whether he is or is not a man of means" Teddy Roosevelt
Yes money talks and it always has and always will - let us not be mute in comparison. Mark Albrecht
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Nicely said Mark. I agree. Speaking up should be done in a respectful but forcefull manner. People listen better when they are treated with respect. No matter what class they are in.
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The power system you describe is an oligarchy, it was what Russia actually was in its hayday. It seems that every thing government and business is gushing the wealth up faster and faster, well very little is being done to help the bottom line. Our disintegrating dollar may help some, but for the most of us it means that the dollar we had five years ago is now worth 60 cents, putting things even further out of balance. I wouldn't hold my breath thinking party politics is going to change much of anything. The NWO folks have a firm grip on their priorities.
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Laddy
Can't disagree on your choice of terms - I actually had used oligarchy first and changed to aristocrcy to meld better with TR's quote.
Not sure the semantics matter. The main point is aristocracy, oligarchy or whatever our wildlife management and conservation ethic is moving rapidly away from a "Public Trust Resource", and we are rapidly losing the "Democracy of Hunting" - both tenets of the North American Model of Wildlife Conservation.
My biggest point is we need to speak up to restore what was fought for by our forefathers and not to accept the handouts thrown our way. If we here can't find common ground, then I fear for the future of our wildlife.
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I think perhaps local and state is where the trend will need to be addressed. On the national level a very few power brokers can be influenced by a very money brokers, and drown out the truth of the efforts made by our fore fathers in this conservation movement. I think we would be better off if we don't alienate others in society that would like to preserve land for free healthy outdoor activities. As example, there are a lot of bird watchers, hikers, and canoeists out there. Many of them hunt, I have run into guys that I taught how to shoot longbows in the middle of Canada on their own canoe trips.
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Right-on!!!!!!!
I hunt, I fish, I vote, but I also try to recruit non hunters and less commited hunters. Forget the antis unless you just want to be frustrated. (I say forget as far as converting not as far as watching what they are up to or what they are saying) I find many folks feel different about someone who puts time in and builds a bow or arrows and respects the land - both public and private.
I still think and hope that local grassroot action can and will influence public conscience. That is the starting point. Its the folks who value nature and are out in it that we can touch - but only if we conduct ourselves in a respectful and honorable fashion.
Kudos to you "laddy" for working to build our coalition of concerned outdoorsman!!!!!
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Couldn't agree more, we don't need all of the newfangled things to have success or enjoy hunting.
It's kind of taking away the true essence of hunting.
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as far as the whole outdoor TV thing is concerned, ever notice when you watch a hunting show there's those "this program sponsored in part by PSE, Mossy Oak, Easton, Bushnell etc. the companies themselves push a lot of the gear toting.
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Well pobs, I came to the conclusion that those shows are basically 1/2 hour commercials for the gear of the sponsors.
That's not necessarily a bad thing, per se, but you should keep in mind that their whole reason for sponsoring those shows is to make you buy their stuff.
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Yep, the prostitution of wildlife will force people to give it up. Everyone has a limit. I blame it all on Trophy Management and mindset. Some of my best hunts have been fruitless. You wont see that on the outdoor channel!
On a side note,my wife bought me some of your books...great reading! Take care.
SL
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Do we have a defeatist attitude or what?
All this talk of the "end of hunting". I think it time we flexed our considerable muscle and fought back.
We talk of the antis not only with disdain but with fear. Why? Is their point of view that strong and that correct? I don't think so, but even I feel overwhelmed by them at times.
What is it they possess that makes them so formidable?
Money, sure. But more than that they have a message that the masses can sympathize with. They protect puppies and kittens. At least that's all that 90% of people know.
And that's how they market themselves. And what do we do? We argue that killing is right. It's a very hard argument to make the non-hunter swallow.
We have our organizations. The NRA does a good job getting word out about issues, mobilizing hunters / shooters and they have considerable political clout. But they also have Ted Nugent as an outspoken member. Not a symapthetic figure by any stretch.
And the NRA has a very poor public image. From the moment Heston made his "cold, dead fingers" proclamation the NRA has been lambasted by every form of media.
What we need, I think, is an organization that is as sympathetic as the HSUS and whose message is not about fighting for our rights but protecting our planet or some such feel good message.
Why can't we exploit the parts of what we do that people can relate to? Conservation, outdoor recreation, comradery. We could be the "protect our natural resources from commercial development, spend time with family and friends, watching the sunset" group ... that also protects the rights of hunters, anglers and shooting enthusiasts ... just as the HSUS is the group that protects puppies and bunnies ... and is fiercly opposed to the killing or eating of animals.
Wouldn't having such an organization, well funded, be paramount? And rather than be disgusted by technology and its invasion into hunting, let's use it to our advantage. Let's bang on the doors of the companies that make and sell these things and get donations from them.
We'll never stop the industry from introducing new technology. They are in it to make money and if they think you would buy a blood trailing light then they will build it. So the best we can do is profit from their success.
Am I wrong?
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Orion siad, "Somebody please say something to give me some hope".
Sorry...aint gonna be me.
Orion is correct... the writing is on the wall. I so often have wished I'd been born a hundred fifty years earlier than I was. I think about the changes this coutry has undergone in just that time and it boggles the mind. To think we can do anything to slow our population growth and our move toward liberalism/socialism is but wishful thinking.
There never has been a society that achieved wealth and order that didnt eventually self destruct. We like to think we are different, but history does tend to repeat itself.
The only real answers are political ones but again, money talks. Our capitalistic society has brought us our great standard of living but it will also be our downfall. Im definitely not knocking capitalism, it has worked and there isnt any better way. We just havent yet seen what it can grow into. Nobody has lasted this long.
Have you considered what the Global Warming ruse and push for biofuels will likely do to our hunting?Farming will become even bigger business than it already has. The small farmer will be gone, replaced by corporate farmers. CRP programs will discontinue as that land will be needed to replace the food taken for fuel. And when CRP vanishes, so does a HUGE chunk of hunting opportunity.
If the liberals rule our government for as long into the future as I predict, more and more of our feel good, bunny hugging friends will make their way into state and federal politics, and along with liberal judge appointments, we will begin loosing our fight against the antis.
But dont totally loose hope. As long as there is big money in farming, there will at least be crop damage permits. Unless of course the government decides that it's more expedient or politically correct to just hire erradication contractors. Where ther's a need and a dollar, their will be contractors priming the political pump to get the work.
Does all this sound OUT THERE? Well, buckle your tree harness cuz we're in for a wild ride. If you're looking forward to it, just go out and vote for your friendly liberals and in a hundred years, 90% of the American people will be vegan, whether they wanna be or not. Cant have those cows eating our biofuel. They are already moaning about cows contribution to greenhouse gasses and the waste of grains to grow steaks and burgers that could be feeding third world countries instead.
I could go on but I need to move on to a subject
where its easier to pretend my cup is half full.
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Here's a bit of hope for you. Vermont had a 4% growth in hunting and fishing license numbers last year and is on track to increase another 4% this year. May not seem huge, but it bucks the trend.
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Montana is also hunter numbers, not much but some.
The major contributing issue I see that is impacting our hunting and hunter population is societal. Fewer and fewer young people are taking it up...too many other things and activities taking up their time. Their parents and relatives have less time to spend at it, and with their kids on average.
I was so very fortunate to have been raised in a hunting and fishing and outdoor family to be exposed to it at an early age where it took root and stuck. My brother's son, shoots and infrequently hunts small game a bit, his father has hunted all over the world, and yet the kid would rather play gameboy at 12 than hunt. This trend I see repeated over and over.
There is nothing more constant than change, and were are seeing it.
Power and politics will have just as much impact on our hunting future as our kids.
Garo