Trad Gang
Main Boards => Hunting Legislation & Policies => Topic started by: Al Dente on February 02, 2008, 07:54:00 AM
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As many of you know by now, the bowhunters of NYS will lose more than a week of bowhunting during the upcoming season. This is due to the recent Season Opening date change enacted by the DEC last year. When this was proposed, New York Bowhunters, Inc. was very vocal its' opposition to this shift for the very reason stated above. We did the math, and knew what would be lost. Unfortunately, our voices fell onto deaf ears.
The DEC decided that having a Monday opening day was inconvenient for hunters, either having to take a vacation day, lose a day's pay, or take a child out of school. Forget about traditions that have long familial ties, forget about the camp camraderie, and forget about the innkeeper/diner owner/ store owner in town who relies on that pre-opener weekend for income.
The DEC did this for an increase of hunter participation. Not 50%, not 40%, not even 10% increase. This was done for a projected increase of 1-2%.
Tradiditons lost, revenues lost, tax revenue lost, bowhunting time lost, all for a 1-2% increase. Which BTW, anyone in NYS knows, that the participating hunters numbers were even lower than last year.
NYB attended the meetings, sent letter sout to its' membership, contacted legislators, contacted the DEC, all to no avail. We stand to lose anywhere from 2-8 days depending on the calendar for that particular year.
Some do not NYB because of our anti-crossbow stance, and I'm not asking anyone to join. But, please seriously think about writing a letter to the DEC and tell them how you feel.
We would like to see the Saturday opener gone and bring back the Monday opening day. Back to the way it was. But that is highly unlikely. Instead, we would like to see a Northern bow opener of September 1st, and Southern bow opener of October 1st.
Just something to think about this Winter.
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Seriously;
Did the rifle hunters and the others in your big tent try to intervene; or did they not?
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Remember, DEC is short for "Does Even Care".
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The scenario of the readying of the camp was lost. Most went up on Friday night or Saturday morning, bought groceries, had a bite to eat, then went to work cleaning, setting up, recalling fond mememories, etc..., then they would hunt Monday, Tuesday, and sometimes even until Wednesday. But now, it's in on Friday night, back home Sunday afternoon. Almost a mad rush.
Of course, we were called the crying bowhunters, they think it's "their" season, they're never satisfied, etc...
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I take that as a 'no' ?
I will say it again; the first antihunters were gun hunters- against bowhunters. I don't think it has changed.
The 'thing' about bowhunting is the ability to take your bow and go out and become enveloped by the wild; and in the midst of that; draw back your bow and become part of it.
If you reduce it to merely the goal of taking an animal; and make that your mantra; then your not going to care about lack of time. You will replace that with technology.
I don't represent the walk in the woods and pull the trigger and walk out and be satisfied group. I do not think those people represent what those of us that look at bowhunting as a traditional way of becoming part of the wild.
Hiding in the corner of the 'tent' is not going to help us out in the short or long run. We are expendable; we are OK to throw to the 'wolves'; and we are reminants of the past; like an old newspaper; we can be discarded without thought.
I think we are screwing up bad by not having a voice. We need a voice. We don't have a voice.
New York shows that.
We are different people; and belong in a different tent. Just because they call us the 'crying bowhunters' that think it is 'their season' - we have no need to throw anything bad back at them. All we need to do is to have a voice as to what we are and who we are.
And that - from my observations is a bunch of really good people that really appreciate the woods and fields; and the pursuit of happpines.
We are the root to the tree; if the root is destroyed; the tree will fall.
This is all like a game of chess; I am looking at the end of the game; not the move being made at the moment; and anyone who is not paying attention in that way; is a leading lemming- to a very tall cliff.......
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Brian, Oh dearly do I hear the sound, of the harp, coming from your bow.
Thinking that we are all living under the same tent, I would ask you this.
Who in the hell does anyone think has protected our rights for the last 200 years.
I'm a traditional archerist and lifelong bowhunter, and A LIFELONG MEMBER OF THE NRA.
Now, when the bowhunters of America can unite and offer the the same commitment to protect our freedom, as has done the NRA, then I will begin to listen to the other side of this conversation. Hail to the Chief!
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I am not questioning the efforts of hunters other than bowhunters to keep our hunting rights; and the NRA for our protection of the second amendment.
I was a member of the NRA for some time; until they decided that Chuck Adams should speak for bowhunters- and that as a rifle shot at 900 yards that is accurate is good; so then 70 yard plus shots with a bow is a sign of a good hunter.
I am waiting for the results of the next election to re-join the NRA. If the democrats are elected; then we can expect them to ignore the crime rate; the high number of illegal aliens ( if there are 12,000,000 of them; and only .01 percent are dangerous- that makes 2400 dangerous aliens per state!). That with the terrorist threat makes gun control really idiotic.
When they make their move; I will rejoin the NRA; because then it will count: when it needs to.
Yes; your totally right; we DO need to crawl out of the corner of the big tent theory and find a voice!
And I think what happened in New York will happen again and again until we do.
The protection of our right to bear arms is going to be met with logic and calm and determination.
I think we should have already formed a group that does the same for us. Without fear- just like the NRA.
This is not about me; its not about you: its about US!
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I'm a Life Member of the NRA, but that is not the issue here. You cannot compare the NRA with ANY State organization. Only 2-3% of licensed bowhunters are NYB members. A grassroots effort is all that we have in NYS, we do get a lot accomplished, but without support, we can only do so much. That's why I'm asking for just a letter, not a membership.
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I love to bowhunt more than any other kind of hunting, but I also gun hunt and like the Sat. opener. I would like to see the bow season open up on the 1st though. As far as the anti crossbow stance goes, I think they should be legalized but only during the firearms season, and only because they would open up some hunting opportunity for the elderly or others that would be sensitive to recoil.
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I like these comparisons. I hunt with all kinds of stuff. My passion is traditional archery but love my flint and percussion guns. If NY allowed I have several spears ready to hunt. I also love my pump '06 and bolt rifles and have even killed deer and other critters with the dreaded black rifles. Here is my opinion. You get from a hunt what you put into it. I have heard "wow you are hunting with that" (referencing my muzzloader during full blown rifle season) (or the same quote from another hunter in a bow only area refernecing my recurve) on several occasions and fill my freezer with venison every year. Any chance to get afield is good. Any chance to bring a brother hunter into the game is good. I like my archery season and would love a longer one. I was pessimistic about the Saturday opener but sadly for the whole sport, I see less and hear less hunters in the woods than ever before. So as we all whine about the loss of "our" time to hunt, we may want to consider that we are losing ground as a whole just in loss of numbers. We should be more concerned with expanding all hunting and keeping the sport alive. The national parks are considering pro-shooters to kill off elk. We should all be showing disdain for this and pushung for hunters to do it..regardless of their implement. The future or traditional hunting lies in a future for all hunting.
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I moved from NY ~25 years ago but still usually make it back for deer season. What Al Dente said about the Monday opener is right on for me, I really enjoyed the pregame. Sent DEC an email with my opinions when they were considering these changes a couple years ago & never got a response, I imagine they got thousands and couldn't respond to all.
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I see Al's points very clearly. They make sense. Here in Ohio we have a Monday opener for gun season and a Saturday opener for the bow season. I've often wondered why oh why Ohio opens our gun season on a Monday (I moved here from Missouri where deer season always begins on a Saturday) and I think Al makes great points. But forget about why New York's DEC says they are moving the opener...thant doesn't matter. I think the true benefit is for the guy who works like a dog all week and maybe can't afford to take the time off to hunt on a weekday. If he is like that guy here in Ohio, then he gets a weekend or maybe two, TOTAL, to hunt if he only hunts with a gun. That short season is exactly why I took up bowhunting. Not too long ago in Ohio the season began on a Monday and ended at dusk six days later (Saturday) because Ohio didn't allow Sunday hunting. That poor guy only got ONE DAY to deer hunt, then. A Saturday opener gives this guy a chance to spend more time in the woods.
As for the 1 to 2% gain in hunters gained...we need all the hunters we can get.
As for the NRA, take it from someone who has worked with them for years professionally, they only care about hunters in so far as hunters are potential firearms buyers. Hunting and hunting rights fall WAY down on their list of priorities...bowhunting is even farther down. You want to protect hunting? Join and give your money to the U.S. Sportsmen's Alliance.
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Originally posted by Al Dente:
The scenario of the readying of the camp was lost. Most went up on Friday night or Saturday morning, bought groceries, had a bite to eat, then went to work cleaning, setting up, recalling fond mememories, etc..., then they would hunt Monday, Tuesday, and sometimes even until Wednesday. But now, it's in on Friday night, back home Sunday afternoon. Almost a mad rush.
I hope as an Ohioan I am not out of place here...but this issue has been in the back of my mind since last night. The argument above makes no sense to me. Why not just move the cameraderie, memory-making days of cleaning, setting up, etc. to the Thursday and Friday before the opener? If you were taking Monday and Tuesday off before under the old opening day regs, how is that different than taking the Thursday and Friday before the season off to hunt the weekend under the new regs?
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Originally posted by Al Dente:
The scenario of the readying of the camp was lost. Most went up on Friday night or Saturday morning, bought groceries, had a bite to eat, then went to work cleaning, setting up, recalling fond mememories, etc..., then they would hunt Monday, Tuesday, and sometimes even until Wednesday. But now, it's in on Friday night, back home Sunday afternoon. Almost a mad rush.
I hope as an Ohioan I am not out of place here...but this issue has been in the back of my mind since last night. The argument above makes no sense to me. Why not just move the cameraderie, memory-making days of cleaning, setting up, etc. to the Thursday and Friday before the opener? If you were taking Monday and Tuesday off before under the old opening day regs, how is that different than taking the Thursday and Friday before the season off to hunt the weekend under the new regs?
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Then you will be right back to where the same hunters will complain about taking time off. I might just be from a different era, when all I looked forward to was the opener. From the last day of the season, that's what I counted on to get me through the rest of the year.
Please keep in mind, these changes did not reflect the hunting population. The DEC decided this for the 1-2% increse only. If the DEc is so concerned about gaining and retaining hunters, they should be behind the lowering minimum age Bills that have been in Albany for the last 4 years. Sportsmen have been very vocal, but the DEC has been silent.
It is multi faceted, not just a one dimensional arguement. Bowhunters are upset because of the potential to lose 8 days of bowhunting time, including a rut weekend, firearms hunters are upset because of the lost tradition, and the small business owners are upset over the loss of revenue. And the DEC is still upset because they claim they sold less licenses again this year. So where's the logic? It did not work.
Also, the DEC made a promise, a verbal one, that the bowhunters would be compensated for the lost time. Now, 2 seasons later, they have reniged on their end. Unfortunately, the DEC Chief Biologist who made the deal, has since retired, so we're out on a limb.
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I grew up in NY and its still my favorite state. Don't have time to hunt it much anymore. I am a biologist with an appreciation for the quandary state wildlife agencies often find themselves in. A 1-2% increase is pretty significant when you are talking about half a million licensed hunters. While bowhunters may lose a few days (and I would be bummed too!) few of them will quit hunting because of the change and the state will have gained another 5 to 10 thousand hunters and the associated revenue. Not really arguing. Justs pointing out that any state has to do what it can to increase the revenues to manage the resource.
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What doesn't make sense is that they did not even get that 1-2% increase in hunter participation. License sales are down AGAIN!!! I beleive the median age for a hunter in NYS is 52. Lowering the age will bring in the young hunters and instill new life into the dwindling hunter population. Poor judgement, and not just my opinion. The DEC is in dire straits. They're 14 million in the red, and by next month it'll be 24 million. They need to get more hunters, and the group to focus on in the younger generation. You can take the classes from age 11, but can't hunt with a bow until 14 and a firearm until 16. And they still blame the bowhunters for not killing enough deer. Keep shortening the season and see what we kill. You can't even get a herd count. For the last 5 years I've asked for a herd count, and every year they say it's 1 million, but that's just an estimate because they haven't done a deer studt in years. And currently they'r ein the middle of a beaver study, and before that it was a turkey study.
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I read a lot of the posts but not all, it is not the gun hunters as in todays society a lot of hunters do both. It was supposed to increase participation but at who's exspense? If they want to icrease participation than lower the age to bi game with a gun to 14 and hold a few youth hunts through out the year. Most states have a much earlier bow seaon than Ny now and most are doing better recruiting new hunters. I think it is time to look at what other successful states, like Indiana and others are doing and try that approach. Shawn
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We no longer have a half million hunters so 1% may be 3000 and if ya made the season longer or at least not robbed the archers of days afield and lowered the bow hunting age to 12 you would more than make up those 3000 in bowhunters alone. If ya do not hook these kids at a young age 11 or 12 they can be lost for good, as by the time they are 14-16 they have other interests and hunting may no longer appeal to them . I say make up for hunter participation by getting them started young and quite losing them to computers, girls and cars!! Shawn
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If you're a bow hunter (and live in NY) and you're not a member of NYB...you should be. And then when fliers are sent out, take the time to write or call the various senators, legislators, ect. It doesn't cost much to join, and every letter, phone call, e-mail helps.
larry marshall
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Not for arguements sake, just stating something:
I never heard of this organization until I read this post. I have been hunting in NY for almost twenty years.
I agree with Shawn, get the youth age lowered, and get the kids more active in archery, or the numbers will continue to decrease. The kids are the future of everything, including bowhunting.
On another note, I think hunters in general have it tough enough as it is, without segregating the group by the means with which they hunt.
I cant think of one person that bow hunts that doesnt gun hunt....might just be my friends though.
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I would love to see the bowhunter age lowered to 12 that would mean that Joe could hunt deer this season. But NY will never do anything that makes any sense, they never have and they never will. They keep bleeding what few hunters they have left dry, and give you virtually nothing back in return, it gets sadder every year. If things ever fell through with my job I would be out of this place in a heart beat, and go somewhere that has more opportunity. Any of us will be darn lucky to have our children stick around this state to raise there family's here, but you can hardly blame them.
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Now AL I continue to send messages to the DEC, I think they now see my name and toss the email. They continue to do anything that brings in $$$ to the DEC with no reguard for the Deer herd and or the hunters. I sent them a email asking why they couold not expand the deer season for archers such as in Maryland and other southern states. Most of these areas have opening of the bow season that runs from Sept 1 and ends in the month of Feb 28.... Without causing any increase in the overall deer kill numbers. I will send another email, the DEC will be I was told at the NYbowhunters meeting in APril. SO maybe we can get on there case to make the changes that hunters want.
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Yes Bill, there will be a Biologist there doing a presentation. There's usualy a Q and A afterwards. It is very troubling. This is just the tip of the iceberg. The DEC has turned a blind eye, deaf ear, etc... to the sportsmen of NYS. They even want sole control over Fish and Wildlife issues, solely upon themselves, with no Legislature involved at all The way it is now, Bills must be sponsored in both Houses, brought into Committee in both Houses, pass Committee in both Houses, pass both Houses entirely, then await the Governor's signature. The DEC feels that they do not need this system and want to make all environmental laws and changes themselves. We're upset now, could you imagine what we'll be facing if they get their way in Albany?!?!?! It's funny, I got a press release last week from the DEC, stating that Commissioner Grannis has submitted 3 pieces of Legislation to be enacted concerning EnCon laws. I asked for the Bill numbers, and sponsors, several times. Today I received an answer that Commissioner Grannis has not yet submitted them, but sometimes in April they will be goin directly to the Governor!!!! Chutzpah!!!!
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I'm with Shawn on the idea of loosing our youth to other activities at a young age, we are competing with high speed Internet and games. I work my butt off to compete for my sons attention to keep him interested in hunting, there are some out there that wont work as hard and those kids we will loose. If you want longer seasons it wont happen over night we may very well be long gone before it will come about, we need to get the age lowered to keep the kids involved this will equal numbers and we all know there is strength in numbers. It's time to end the short term battle and switch to the long term ideas that will change the playing field, the key to it all is in our kids and their kids and so on. The people that want to see our rights gone have been doing this for years that is why they are winning the battle. And now with Spizer gone we have fell out of the frying pan and into the fire so to speak. We need the right to include our children for the long haul win, the heck with this coming bow season focus on the future and get those 12 year olds the right to bowhunt!
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Now what a week lost to friends. Now lets all ask the DEC to start the season for bow on Sept 1, like a lot of the southern states do and have the season run thru Feb 28.
I am sure this year you will also see the cross- bow have a special season. I keep getting info on why my small little archery shop should carry cross-bows. I am sure lots of money is being tossed aroung to get the needed votes to make a xbow season be part of the NY law.I like some states do allow a cross-bow to hunt but they have to have a doctor to say they no longer can pull ands hold a normal bow. I would not have a problem with something like this, I want to keep hunters hunting, I myself at 66 years young could see a time when I may due to physical problems still want to hunt but may not have the physical ability. I have had rotocup repair and some days to draw the bow at even 55 lbs is a real problem.