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Main Boards => Hunting Legislation & Policies => Topic started by: 2-BIG on June 17, 2008, 07:54:00 PM
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Please contact your state Rep and the members of the "Tourism, Outdoor Recreation, and Natural Resources" and urge them to vote "NO" on HB 5741.
HB 5741 was introduced by Rep Sheltrown and it was originally worded to remove the authority to issue crossbow permits from the NRC/DNR to the Legislature. It also had included for those 69 and older to be able to use a crossbow in archery season.
It was heard before the Tourism, Outdoor Recreation, and Natural Resources Committe last week and the wording had been changed to include crossbows as legal archery equipment for all to use!
Here is a link to your state legislators including the Committee members: http://house.michigan.gov/find_a_rep.asp
Thank you for your help everyone!
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Well money had it's way and now this state is plagued with the crossbow virus! :mad: :banghead:
I cannot beleive this has happened. I always thought of myslef as an open minded individual, but I know the mind set of a perfectly able bodied person toting one of those pieces of crap! It's all about point and kill! No practice, no sense of tradition and what bowhunting really means. Just a bunch of slobs who want to put a hole in something.
AHHHHHH!!!!!!!! Sorry if I am ranting but I HATE crossbows!! I can see if you are handicapped, then thats cool. But come on!! How did they sneak in using them for general use? My head is going to burst!
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Arwin, it only passed Committee. It has to pass the house and then be signed into law by the Govenor. We've got a lot of fight left in us, they don't know it but they've woke a sleeping giant. Many guys I know that are everyday bowhunters that don't keep up on this stuff have got their feathers ruffled now! ;)
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Thanks 2-Big, I feel a bit better now. I just hope our governor doesn't follow along with the rest of the house.
People, this is why it is so important to belong to a state bowhunting organization, that fights for what we believe in! It is also desperatly important to contact your states Reps and tell them what you think! I know I'll have several e-mails out today.
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I contacted Rep. Sheltrown and I called him out on it. This was his reply:
Tom, The crossbow manufacturers haven't contributed any money to any legislators that I'm aware of. The certainly haven't to me. And I haven't asked. My original motivation for this bill was three older men at my Baptist church in West Branch asking for automatic permits at age 69. Since then, many other hunters have contacted me in support of full inclusion including many bow hunters. The three organizations you mentioned speak for a very small minority of bow hunters in this state. -Joel
By the way the three organizations that I mentioned was Michigan Bowhunters, Michigan Traditional Bowhunters and Michigan Longbow Association. This guy won't listen, we need to vote him out in November. Also, we need to start a Petition to present to the Governor.
Tom
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Kinda funnny that 3 older men at his church asked him to do this but since then "many" other hunters have asked him for full inclusion. :rolleyes: Why did the "many" hunters wait to come forward until after the 3 older fellas? :confused: I guess they were just being politically correct and letting the old guys to the head of the line! ;) When do we get to hear the "women and children" excuse? :p
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I contacted my Rep and he replied he would consider my comment when it was time to vote.
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Owlbait, the vote in the House of Reps is over. We need to concentrate on the Senate............tm
Michigan Bow Hunters ACTION ALERT!!!
The Michigan House of Representatives has just passed a substitute bill for HB5741 that would make the crossbow a weapon of choice during the archery deer season. If the bill becomes law, it will end bowhunting as we know it in Michigan, the nation’s top bowhunting state.
Michigan currently has more than 400,000 firearm deer hunters who have never taken up the challenge of bowhunting and who would flock to the bow season if they could shoot arrows with guns in October. The resulting social and biological impact will, in all probability, force the DNR to dramatically reduce the length of the archery deer season. The crossbow is not archery equipment, requires no archery skills and is much more user-friendly to firearm hunters than a conventional hand-held bow.
Bowhunting in Michigan faces its greatest threat in 72 years and the future of the sport rests in our hands. We all need to call our State Senator ASAP and urge him or her to vote AGAINST House Bill 5741-S2.
If you are not aware of who is your State Senator you can find out by going to
http://senate.michigan.gov/FindYourSenator/michiganfys.asp
and enter your street address, city and zip code. Click on the "Submit Query" button for the information you'll need to contact your Senator. By phone is best especially since their emails are not read individually because of the volume which they receive.
Bruce Levey
President, Michigan Bow Hunters
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Sent a message to my Senator also. The point I want to make about my Rep. Hansen District 100 is that he replied he would "rely on my comment" yet he was a co-sponsor of the bill! What a gutless wonder!
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Owlbait,
I think your are getting the standard form reply sent by a staffer for your representative, I bet your senators will be similar. The Representatives' and Senators' staffors will keep a tally of comments and they will generally only be influenced if the talley is very one sided. Our problem isn't crooked politicians, although they exist. The problem is that most people, hunters and non hunters alike, see no difference between compound bows and cross bows in effectiveness or difficulty to use. I was told by a salesman at the local Gander Mountain that they can have a new archer shooting a compound well enought to hunt within 2 hours of buying thier equipment. From what I have seen of high let off compounds and the associated accessories, I believe him. Thats not much of a barrier to entry into the archery season.
The reason more gun hunters don't bow hunt is because the perception that shooting a bow takes lots of practice persists. The addition of the cross bow will allow those that want to hunt during the archery season to participate even if they have the perception they cannot learn to shoot a bow. Unfortanatly, with the combination license, this will not result in additional revenue for the Department (except a tempory influx of excise tax mony from cross bow sales, if the Feds decide to return it to the State).
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Men,
Is this really that big of an issue? I am not from Michigan but I don't really see why having a few more hunters is a bad thing. I would be more upset about baiting than crossbows. I believe that baiting is allowed in all but 7 counties in Michigan. Why is this not as big of an issue? Maybe I am all wrong in my thinking, but I guess I just don't get it.
R/
Jason
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Yes it's that big.
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Hi Jason,
It's a big deal in this context:
In Michigan, our long archery season is premised on the extra effort involved in taking a whitetail with a "hand drawn, and hand held at full draw" bow. It's a fair chase fact that the movement of drawing one's bow inside the hyper zone of a whitetail is a lot harder than simply squeezing the trigger of a loaded crossgun, that can and often is resting on a limb or the sill of one's hunting shanty. These are hardly the semantic issues as the crossbow arms manufacturers propagandize.
Now, in Michigan, bowhunting stakeholders worked hard and did the heavy political lifting to assure any crossbow aficionados had an open season; crossbows are legal in gun season. We worked with the special needs hunters Orgs and with the NRC to establish liberal access to archery season. I even floated the proposition that a severely handicapped person could get a permit to use a firearm with the help of an enabler. Of course the crossbow lobby was not for that!
One must also realize, (and this is important) there is not now, nor has ever been, a grassroots crossbow constituency petitioning for inclusion in Michigan's archery season. This whole affair, as with Pennsylvania, is driven by crossbow arms dealers who have bought adroitly targeted politicians to do their bidding. It's that simple and that corrupt.
One last thing, Jason, could you ever in your wildest dreams imagine that a speargun fisherman would be allowed to snorkel the Madison or any other hallowed river, for brown trout rising to the hatch? I mean, what's the big deal, a dead fish is a dead fish. Of course one would have to believe that the concept of fair chase is just another traditional institution whose time has passed.
It's a big deal in Michigan and that's why bowhunters with fair chase core values are outraged by the blatant corruption of some of our politicians.
best,
bc
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BC, First of all good post, and thanks for sheading a little more light on the situation. I guess I can understand the situation a little better. Anyway, good luck to you Michigan boys,(but not in Foot Ball, Go Tigers) I hope you get it all worked out for the best. Happy hunting
R/
Jason
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My State Senator replied that he was against opening seasons for crossbows but would allow/vote to extend its use to more hunters with disabilities.
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I will make a few posts to showcase my thoughts and the marketing strategy that was developed by the ATA after Georgia:
(how will this affect YOUR season? Please specify.)
My thoughts:
A crossbow is not a bow. Hunting with a crossbow is not bow hunting. A crossbow has no more business in a bow and arrow only season than does a handgun, shotgun, or a rifle. Every major bow and arrow user organization and every major bow hunting organization across the entire country is against this move. Tax dollars(sales and excise tax), commercialism, and greed are the only driving force behind this manufacturer national lobby effort. Your local officials are being courted with dollars, tackle, and hunting trips. There is no regard for archery, the future of archery, and all the hard work of so many who helped establish special archery seasons.
Crossbow use in archery season is nothing more than an advertising push of the crossbow manufacturers, facilitated by the Archery Trade Association and other surrogate marketing agents. No sportsmen’s groups are petitioning for this legalization of crossbows, only the profiteers. These backdoor deals between these groups and your local officials gives the good name of archery a black eye. How in the world could 100% of the bowhunting organizations in my state compete against the big dollars in such dealings when our state officials were being given equipment and hunting trips to Africa. When our local businessmen were given exclusive deals with the crossbow manufacturers if they showed support. Just look at our current game regs book which is now partly funded by this group and has turned into a commercialized sales pitch for the lobby group with multiple full page color adverts for the various crossbow makers. Read the minutes of the meetings and note how the local hunting expert who was used to pitch the move has since dumped all bow and arrow archery tackle from his outdoor sports store and now is an exclusive dealer of crossbows through the ATA.
I have no dislike of the crossbow itself and one should be able to hunt with such a weapon. But not in a bow and arrow season.
later,
Daddy Bear
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Motive as to why Lee Zimmerman and the ATA group developed a 50state strategy to target local state officials. This is straight from the ATA:
That bright spot was the ever-controversial crossbow. Why? The No. 1 reason was that Georgia passed a law to allow crossbows during its four-month archery season. As a result, the crossbow market picked up in 2002. “The crossbow market was hotter than a pistol,” said Erik Watts, CEO of Easton Outdoors. “It’s all tied to new seasons and new opportunities. Anytime you have a special season, there will be huge potential. Without special seasons, it’s just another product category. For areas with new seasons and new opportunities, there’s talk that crossbows will be archery’s next growth spurt. For areas where the seasons are unchanged and there is no special opportunity, it’s no big deal. “Crossbows are here to stay, but let’s remember that growth centers on having a season. That’s the way things have always been.”
Lee Zimmerman, vice president of sales and marketing for Horton Manufacturing Co. Inc., in Tallmadge, Ohio, agrees. He said Horton had an exceptional year with “extremely strong” growth. He credits the Georgia decision for his company’s success. “One shop we heard about in Georgia sold eight crossbows in 2001, but in 2002 that shop sold eight to 12 crossbows every day all summer,” Zimmerman said.
Daddy Bear
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The ATA 50state strategy was revealed during an ethics violation probe of Ohio officials who took discounts, gifts, and trips from the ATA. This was reprinted by permission from the Columbus Dispatch newspaper:
Crossbow discounts defended:
(Company gives ODNR employees break on prices; department officials say no ethics rules violated.)
The world's largest maker of crossbows offers deep discounts to every employee of the Ohio Department of Natural Resources, the agency that regulates hunting.
An official with the company, Horton Crossbows of Tallmadge in Summit County, said it's part of a national effort to support states friendly to crossbow hunting, such as Ohio, and to win over states that aren't.
"It's a national program that we offer to all 50 states," said Lee Zimmerman, vice president of sales for Horton.
The Ohio Ethics Commission, which interprets conflict-of-interest questions for state agencies and employees, generally recommends against accepting gifts.
State employees have been prosecuted under the ethics law or fired for receiving golf outings, meals and other valuable freebies.
Daddy Bear
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This is an example of the behind the scene wheeling and dealing with the government officials who hold the vote to change the regulations in favor of the ATA group. I have a photograph taken of this "unofficial planning meeting" by corporate Horton that I would gladly email to one of you if you could post the picture on this thread. The below description of this "unofficial planning meeting" came directly from the Horton Corporate Newsletter:
"The Horton Company hunting camp was the scene for an unofficial planning meeting between the ATA and the Association of Fish and Wildlife Agencies (AFWA). Representing AFWA was John Frampton, executive committee chair and South Carolina Department of Natural Resources director; and Carol Bambery, legal counsel for AFWA. ATA attendees included Mitch King, director of government relations; and Jay McAninch, CEO/president. Horton attendees included CEO Rick Szekelyi; Lee Zimmerman, sales and marketing vice president; and Ottie Snyder, Horton's crossbow educator and media specialist."
Daddy Bear
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Here is a recent (June 23, 2008) example of the fruits from the gifts, hunting trips, and lobbying efforts of Lee Zimmerman and the ATA folks. This came from the Horton Corporate Newsletter:
The Louisiana Department of Wildlife and Fisheries regulations for bow and arrow will now read: Longbow, compound bow and crossbow or any bow drawn, held or released by mechanical means will be a legal means of take for all properly licensed hunters.
Jimmy Anthony, Assistant Secretary, LDWF, said, “ This change gives the hunter (or potential hunter) more options on how they would like to hunt. We would like to say, ‘Thank you,’ to the legislature and the governor for getting these acts signed into law.” - Horton
Daddy Bear
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Just to add to the dealings, the former Commissioner of the wildlife agency in Louisiana involved in the crossbow legislation is now employed by Horton.
Daddy Bear
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This is from the current Horton Corporate newsletter:
Michigan General Archery Season Update 2008-06-23
The Michigan House of Representatives passed, by a vote of 94 "Years" to 14 "Nays" with 2 abstentions. A bill that would allow for full crossbow inclusion in the state's general archery season. This is great news.
The battle moves on to the State Senate.
Daddy Bear
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How many of you bowhunters in Michigan belong to an archery organization that can afford to fly your state senator on a jet to an out of state hunt for an "unofficial planning meeting" and then give the senator parting gifts of money and tackle. If you cannot afford this, don't bother calling your senator as he is out of his office this week hunting with "Camp Horton".
Daddy Bear
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To close my string of posts:
If we were all employed in the same government agency or all employed in the same law enforcement agency where an isolated group within the agency were involved in ethics violations or corruption; would staying quiet and hiding the truth be the correct thing to do out of fear that the word would get out to those looking for ammunition to go after the agency? Of course not, we would all then be corrupt. We should weed out such under the table dealings and hold those involved accoutable. We should remain above board and demand transparency within the agency.
This same logic should apply to wildlife officials and to us the stickbow hunters and stickbow merchants. If officials in other branches of government are fired or sent to prison for ethics violations, why does it suddenly become okay for game officials. In my state we had officials go on African Safaris. What about us, why is it bad for others to cover up ethic violations yet we here will routinely sweep it under the rug out of fear we will be giving ammo to the anti-hunting folks.
I think we should all strive to stay above board as individuals and as a group. I think if evidence pops up that casts a bad light on your local officials where unethical behavior may be afoot, the officials should be called out. Again, I have no dislike of the crossbow but I have a great dislike for the methods and motives behind this 50state push.
later,
Daddy Bear
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It is definitly a sneakey way for the manufactures of the cross bows to promote their product. Make it legal then sell,sell,sell!!! I have looked at a couple ads for these things and they are boasting speeds of 400+ fps. There is nothing "bow-like" about that!
I have been sending my letters straight to the governor.
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Thanks for all of the info Gary. I wish that all of our Senators that will be voting on this issue could see evidince of the tactics and lack of ethics used by the crossbow companys along with the state game officials.
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2-BIG,
I sympathize with your plight, my family has a farm and farm house outside of St. Charles. My wife and children are there at this very moment. Members of our family have hunted and fished in the great state of Michigan for many decades. Ron LaClair is not the only one to hunt Armstrong Creek:)
I truly dislike the dirty politics involved in this ATA 50state marketing plan. The ATA has a "Director of Government Relations" who is an expert lobbyist with all the connections and resources needed to sway votes. These "Unofficial Planning Meetings" with government officials and their attorneys are not to sway votes but are strategy meetings to come up with ways to pull the votes off by pulling the wool over the citizen's eyes. A good example of this is the strategy they pulled on you guys at the public meeting. This entire thing is driven by the ATA and they will not stop fighting until they win over every state.
The ATA/Horton is all about corporate shares and profits, that is the American way and that will always be the case. They only look at our special bow and arrow season as a marketing tool and nothing else. We cannot change their view.
But, the political greed for dollars is a different story. That is something we can address. If a crooked politician is getting misinformation out to influence a good politician, we can work hard to get the good information out. If the crooked politician is indeed bad, we can work to cast a light at his/her true motives. We can work to vote them out of office. We can elect those who better represent our views. If a game official is taking trips and gifts in return for their support, seek them out and demand they be fired. The corrupt game officials in my state were found out using The Freedom of Information Act. It is most definitely a hard battle as even members on this very board disagree. But I'll stand my ground and will not give another inch!
later,
Daddy Bear
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Thanks Daddy Bear. I may see you some day around St Charles, I attend the Labor Day 3-D shoot at the Bad River Bowman every year.
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My email was full and I'm just sitting down now trying to catch up. Sorry that I missed the emails reference the camp Horton pic. I just emailed the picture to all who inquired.
Thanks,
Daddy Bear
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United we stand/ Divided we fall. If someone would like to use a crossbow. So be it. That person is a hunter no matter what they decide to carry. Remember we are all out there for the same reason. No matter what we use to get the job done...Think before you Write. Tdog
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No problem with people using crossbows. They just don't belong in the arhery season.
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Don't be so greety
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Don't be so Greedy
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T-dog, you must be a young fella if you don't understand the issue here. You have a lot of growing up to do.
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43yrs young and I do under stand. Don't be so greedy. One year older than you. The more money spent on hunting equipment is better for all of us.If you don't agree with my thoughts thats OK but don't tell me to grow up and I won't call you a professional baby sitter.
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I'm not greedy.
I just don't agree with today's need for instant gratification.
Bowhunting is not "point and click".
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Originally posted by Tdog:
43yrs young and I do under stand. Don't be so greedy. One year older than you. The more money spent on hunting equipment is better for all of us.If you don't agree with my thoughts thats OK but don't tell me to grow up and I won't call you a professional baby sitter.
Didn't mean to offend you T-dog. Usually it is the really young guys that adhere to the big tent theory and not the older guys that have seen the light! ;)
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Thank you 2-Big...fyrfyter43 if you truly beleave your statement. Then why don't you go after the wheel people. They point and click. Please remember where you are.If a person wants to ues a crossbow. God bless them. Thats what this country is about. People with wheel bows can shoot out to sixty yards. Good for them. Thats how they what to do it. Me I like it close, as do you. But who am I to tell someone else how to hunt.I don't want anyone to tell me how to hunt.As long as it is ethical.There are people out there that can't pull a bow back or are not that good with a bow but do well with a crossbow. Who am I to tell them they can't.So Eric your first morning in the stand nice buck or doe comes by. You will not shoot,Because you don't beleave in instant gratification.Eric when you are hungry you don't eat because,You don't beleave in instant gratification.Do you do the same thing when your thursty? United we stand/Divided we FALL!!!!
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May as well have one general season then?
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Next thing you know the firearms hunters will be lobbying to get into the bowhunting season, because, you know, "some of us are just not that good with a bow, but we do well with a rifle."
Tdog, in my America, if you truly want something, you have to earn it. It shouldn't be handed to you on a silver platter just because you whine long and loud enough. That's one of the big reasons this country is in the mess it's in today. Everyone feels that they are entitled to whatever they want...just make enough noise and they'll give it to us.
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BTW, I'm not a big fan of compounds either. However, compounds are alot more in line with the spirit of the bowhunting seasons that were established many years ago than are crossbows.
Crossbows have been around alot longer than compounds. If they are such a good fit in the archery season, why weren't they included long before now?
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43 you make a good squeaky wheel...Let the rifle guys out the same time as me.I hunt right through gun season with the bow anyway. Eric maybe you'll get your way if you whine with a higher tone.Keep the faith..Divid and concor..
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Originally posted by Tdog:
Let the rifle guys out the same time as me.I hunt right through gun season with the bow anyway.
So tell me...why can't the crossbow guys use their weapon of choice during the firearms season just as you and I both do with our traditional bows?
I haven't used a firearm since 1997, although I am thinking about going back to a muzzleloader. That decision is mostly because I enjoy shooting a flinter even more than a longbow. Since the archery season is quite a bit longer than the blackpowder season, maybe I should lobby to have my flintlock legalized during the archery season. Afterall, with the advent of the new inlines, my flinter is that much more of a primitive weapon, and I'm now handicapped during the muzzleloader season.
If you'll look back over many posts I've made on the subject of crossbows, you'll see that I have no problem with them being allowed during the firearms season. However, I don't believe that they have a place in the archery season. Just as I don't believe that inline rifles have a place in a "primitive" muzzleloader season.
If people wanted to hunt with a crossbow simply because it is their preferred weapon, they would have no problem with that. The ones lobbying for the inclusion of crossbows in the archery season are either in the pockets of the crossbow manufacturers, or those looking for a way to extend their hunting season without investing any "sweat equity" into bowhunting.
I have personally been bowhunting for more than 25 years, and with traditional bows for nearly 20 of those years. Crossbows were readily available even before I started bowhunting, at least from mail-order vendors such as Cabela's and Bass Pro Shops. Why was there no effort to include them into the bowhunting season until the past few years, other than in a couple of states?
Don't want to invest the time and effort required to be proficient enough with what is currently defined as a bow? Don't worry - we'll just change the definition so you won't feel left out. As of late, that has become the American way...
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Life is to short to worrie about people who want to hunt with crossbows or rocks or anything else.You should read your quoat by Saxton Pope because your miss the point. squeak..squeak...squeak..
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So, Tdog, I guess you would be in favor of, let's say, a 2-week long season, during which the hunter could use any weapon of his choice, with the caveat that this is the only season during which hunting is allowed?
Afterall, that would be the best way to ensure that no one is left out. And that's the way we're heading by making sure that everybody could participate in the bowhunting season, without any dedication to the sport and the weapon.
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When I first started hunting, no one in my family bowhunted. I didn't even know there was an archery season.
I enjoyed hunting so much that as soon as I found out that you could hunt from late September into November with a bow and arrow, I immediately asked my parents for a bow for Christmas.
Once Christmas came and I found that Ben Pearson compound under the tree, along with a half-dozen Easton GGs, I was out there shooting every day. From the time I got home from school until it was so dark I couldn't see my arrows hit the hay bales we had gotten from a farmer friend.
I shot like that for more than a year until I could increase my draw weight to the 35# minimum and get signed up for the first available bowhunter education course.
That fall I spent every single afternoon in the woods behind my parents' house, trying to find a deer to fling one of my arrows at. Even though I never got within 50 yards of a deer, I never gave up. I came home every night well after dark with a smile from ear to ear, and stayed up doing my homework so I would get the grades my parents expected of me. Lord knows, if my grades had slipped, my after school hunting would quickly come to an end.
A few years later, after a couple of kills with a compound, I decided that that was just not what bowhunting was meant to be. As fate would have it, the bow I was shooting that year came apart on me at full draw one evening. I literally stuffed it into the garbage can and went the next day to order my first longbow.
I'm at a point in my life now where I am lucky if I can hunt every Saturday. Even though I don't have the time to hunt, I still make the time to shoot often enough to keep my skills sharp should I have a few hours to slip away. I won't even consider hunting if I haven't shot recently. I owe it to the game I hunt to be at my best in the woods.
Do you honestly think that very many of the crossbow proponents are willing to make sacrifices like these to extend their hunting seasons? I don't. Most are looking for a way to add MONTHS onto their seasons with no more effort than going out a week before the season to "sight-in" their new arrow gun. That, to me, is a slap in the face to all the men and women who have earned the privilege of hunting during the archery season through their own dedication and hard work.
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Eric I started my bowhunting walk the same way you did.We need to let others take that walk we have. You started with a wheel bow. It could have been a crossbow and then to a longbow or how ever it worked out. If they want to hunt I'm with them.The bottom line is we are a dying breed. If there kick off to this life style is through a crossbow so be it. I know guys with wheel bows who only shoot a week before the season.Me I shoot all year long that's me. I love it that much.We need to bring in new stock.Think out side the box.It seem's like your worried about someone shooting your deer.It's not your deer.It's a gift from GOD!Be happy for the other guy.I'm sorry that you don't get to spend alot of time out doors.This is where the greedy statement come's in.I spent my day doing the Tunnel's to Tower's run today. I do not like the city. I'm bigger than that.Give it a try. Love ya man.
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I truly believe that if we could get the crossbow proponents to understand it's not about 'my' deer the anti-crossbow position would be easier to understand. First of all, the 'my' deer argument is ludicrous because we are talking about 99.999999999% of all deer being taken by someone else just the way it is today. Additionally, state bowhunting organizations work their tail's off trying to recruit new archers. The 'my' deer argument is made by proponents merely in an effort to sell a position. It has no basis when it's looked at closely. Second, proponents are agents of change who are not satisfied with the current state sponsored seasons and and cry 'selfish' when others advocate support for decades old hand held archery seasons. Third, what about handicap hunters? Is it fair to take away the one advantage that they have to be able to participate equally with other archers? Not all restrictions are equipment based. Four, just who is being denied a archery license in Michigan? I'm not from Michigan so as far as I know maybe all hunters whose last name starts with 'L" are denied an archery license. Who exactly is being excluded to participate in the state sponsored archery season? The opportunity to hunt.... is totally different than the opportunity to hunt with your preferred weapon. There is a difference. If that's the pandora box that your state wishes to open, you'll have lots of company. The desire to hunt in the 'archery' season surely goes far beyond that of a few crossbowmen. I'm sure the black powder and gun users would be emboldened by the 'inclusion' argument and crossbowmen success and would spread the cancer like 'inclusionist' argument. What's special about a 'string' weapon? What meaningful barrier does it create? More than the hand held barrier; lets hope so. Nobody gets a pass or 'off limits' marker by merely hunting with a bow. Maybe next year they will include handguns in your season because the range is similar and you get to pull a trigger; just like on a crossbow.
Archery as a hunting sport dies when there are no special seasons to support it. The yellow brick road that so many envision with crossbow legalization may ultimately prove to be just a beginning of a new movement where the masses that don't want to hunt with a bow are the new 'inclusionist'. As long as archery seasons are available for all to participate in (with a bow) it passes a litmus test of fairness because the issue becomes merely one of choice of whether to participate or not.
I think anyone is entitled to an opinion different than my own. I'm just saying maybe this entire crossbow debate needs a few more layers of the onion peeled back to get to some of the real issues at play.
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Tdog-
What we need to do; is to recognise that hunting with a traditional bow requires practice; and devotion; and a better knowledge of the animals we hunt.
Rifle hunters were the first anti-bowhunters. They were afraid that the deer would not be huntable if the bowhunters woke them up to hunters.
This is not our concern about crossbows.
The very special thing about traditional bowhunting is that it takes more time.
More time in practice; more time in preparation; and more time to get close enough to get a shot.
I think about 10% of the shots I have seen on hunting shows with compound/cam bows could have been taken with a longbow or recurve. We are talking bows that are shorter than my arrows; and that can be moved around and held back for really long periods of time.
The crossbow is really an arrow shooting machine; just like the compound/cam bows; and only has a stock with the trigger built into itseparate: it from compound/cam bows.
The thing I like about bowhunting is the time.
The longer time is nessesary because we have to overcome all the obstacles to succeed. Those obstacles being: becoming familiar with the way the bow shoots at different ranges; the need to practice; the need to be a little more familiar with animals to get close enough for a shot; and the timing and experience needed... to draw back when the animal steps into a shooting lane-- not long minutes at full draw until the animal presents a shot! That is rifle hunting !
You hunt in the rifle season; you are in a tiny minority to hunt in the rifle season. Lets face it; if you make a heart shot on a deer; it can go 180 yards. If you are in a rifle season; that is enough time for someone else to shoot the deer; and if they see it fall- well gun season is pretty much 'who tags it first' season.*
I am happy for you that you can hunt in rifle season. Most of us can't. Can't because of the safety concerns; and can't because of laws. I for instance: cannot hunt in the elk rifle season- with my bow tag for elk.
This is all about money; and nothing about the importance of traditional bowhunting; and what "BOWHUNTING SEASON" means. We might go so low in numbers that our hunting is not a concern game management wise. In fact; Aldo Leopold the father of wildlife conservation; and a bowhunter: said 'bowhunters should never exist in such numbers that they are considered as a tool for game management policies'.
What he was saying is; that when bowhunters start making as much of an impact on game herds: that wildlife mangers have to start controlling the length of seasons- we lose.
We lose because the magic of bowhunting is freedom; not waiting in line like at a gas station for our turn; but out there absorbing the wild; becoming one with it; and practicing an art form that has existed for at least 7,500 years.
Increase the number of hunters; the take goes up. Increase the technology the take goes up; and the seasons will have to be adjusted; or we will have to pass profiecency tests; or not have the chance to hunt every year.
Some states might be trying to recruit bowhunters; but I think that is not up to the state; but up to US.
Shooting bows shorter than my arrows - bows that do not require but the least amount of practice or understanding of bowhunting ...is a fad. It is a big fad; but it is a fad.
For heavens sake; don't encourage in everything that shoots a broadhead: because you don't mind hunting with gun hunters.
Crossbows are on the front because of the advancement of compound and cam bows. Lets not let in everyone in the spirit of bowhunting; when those let in: ~have zero understanding or alliegence to it~.
What was stated was true. If you can hunt more with a crossbow; why not a muzzleloader; and why not a pistol; and why not a rifle... you don't mind that-- but you ~must~ realize your totally in the minority there.
This is an issue not about hunting; not about the heritage of hunting; not about game management; but about DOLLARS.
Lets squash it whenever we can. It will ruin the bow seasons!!!!!!!!!
* if your hunting in rifle season; and see a buck bound by; and shoot it; the arrow wound through the heart means nothing. You killed the buck; and you tag it.
In rifle seasons; the guy who 'drops' the animal has the right to tag it.
In bow season; the first person to draw blood on an animal gets it. If I shoot a deer that is already really dying; why would I want to tag it? Most bowhunters happily follow this unwritten rule.
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Brian well put.You change my mind.I see what you mean.Thank you Tdog...
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Thank you Brian! :)
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Thank you, Brian! Well put!
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:thumbsup: :campfire: :archer:
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Well, I have some new information, which is more bad news. :mad: It seems that the Safarri Club International President has decided to join the push for crossbows here in Michigan. Here is some info:
During the October 9, 2008, 1:45 p.m. NRC Policy Committee on Wildlife and Fisheries meeting. a discussion will be held on the crossbow proposal by the Safari Club International.
The Natural Resources Commission would like input from the Crossbow Disability Work Group though the new proposal would address crossbow usage by able-bodied users.
If you are able, please join us at the NRC Policy Committee on Wildlife and Fisheries on October 9 beginning at 1:45 p.m. in Room 202 of the Lansing Center, 333 E. Michigan, Lansing.
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Doesn't Safari club allow penned animals in their "record book"? Wealthy elitist who want to shoot anything, anywhere, anyway, for any amount of money so they can have a "trophy". Not surprising that they would join the other side.
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The thing that will kill hunting won't be crossbows, or modern inline muzzleloaders, or supermagnums with high powered scopes,or even anti-hunters; it will be hunters who would rather fractionalize and fight each other than fight those who would take away our ability to hunt.
I don't care what weapon you choose, I don't care if you use dogs, I cringe at the thought but I don't care if you bait. What I do care about is how you treat the land and how you honor the game.
I have hunted all my life. I have used recurves, compounds, crossbows, flintlocks, inlines, handguns, shotguns, and rifles. I am now learning to use the longbow.
But that longbow doesn't in anyway make me superior to the rifle hunter. I have taken deer at 4 yards with bows, shotguns, muzzleloaders, handguns and rifles. In my entire hunting lifetime (34 years for deer, 39 years for small game), I can count the shots that I have taken at game farther than 25 yards on my fingers. I can also say that I've missed more close shots than far.
If we don't pull together as hunters, we will lose the fight to keep the tradition of hunting alive.
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Like many have already said (myself included), it's not about the weapon...it's about the appropriate season for it to be included in.