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Main Boards => Hunting Legislation & Policies => Topic started by: Ron LaClair on June 17, 2008, 03:10:00 PM
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This is a copy of a thread that was started by Jim Larsen (2-Big) The thread was moved to the Hunting Issues and Politics forum and then for some reason was deleted. I was at this meeting and saw first hand Rep Joel Sheltrowns bias support for crossbows in the General Bow season. This is a REAL threat folks and we CAN NOT sweep it under the rug. I've cut and copied Jims original post.
"There was a bill introduced in the "Tourism, Outdoor Recreation, and Natural Resources" Committee that will take the power from the NRC/DNR and transfer it to the Legislature for issuing crossbow permits. This bill also included wording to give those 69 and older crossbow permits across the board. Last week when the Committe met to hear comments, the Representative that sponsored the bill "Rep Joel Sheltrown", changed the bill to include CROSSBOWS FOR EVERYONE in Michigan's archery season! He also brought along 3 crossbow proponents, one that was from Minnesota, to do an hour long power point presentation, to further his agenda. The opponents were allowed a "few minutes" to speak. This bill will be voted on either tomorrow June 17th or next week June 24th. PLEASE contact your state Rep and the members of the Committee and urge them to vote "NO" on HB 5741! Here is a link to your Reps and you can also find the Committee members: http://house.michigan.gov/find_a_rep.asp"
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Thanks for posting this again Ron. I was not sure what happened to the last thread but I am sure it got deleted because of the bickering that was going on about "X-bows".
Please if you want to do something about this please do so! If not then don't! But either way lets get people informed so they can make their own decisions.
Lets keep the bickering off this post so it can stick around for the people that are unaware!!
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This is happening more andmore..the government trying to take power away from the DNR. Dont stand for it fellas!!
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does anyone know if it was voted on today, i sent my message in late last night.
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In a companionable voice, I’ll try to reiterate my sensibilities as to fact verses opinion, and why this xbow issue is troublesome, not only to me but to many of my bowhunting brothers and sisters in Michigan. Understand too, that my rhetorical voice is in measured response to the indictments leveled against Michigan's hunting archers by the xbow lobby.
Facts:
1: xbow has never fit the criteria for use in archery seasons in Michigan (other than for special needs bowhunters, law has to undergo serious plastic surgery in order to include xbows)
2: It’s a stock shouldered, fore stock braced, breech loaded, cocked and trigger fired compound catapult.
3: It can remain in a static cocked and ready attitude, much like a firearm.
4: It can be laid across a tree limb or shanty window and sighted, then trigger fired, much the same as a firearm. It even comes with scope mounts. Much like a firearm.
5: It does not have firearm ballistics, but it’s ballistic capability far exceeds those of archery gear upon which lengthy bow seasons were and are premised.
6: Last but most importantly, special needs bowhunters have ALL the access they could ever want to xbows via the law nurtured, consulted, and sanctioned by Michigan Bowhunters.
More facts:
There is not now, nor has ever been, a nascent xbow constituency in Michigan.
The disingenuous spin from the xbow arms dealers (swarming our politicians) has been that their motivation has always been to help the special needs bowhunter.
Of course the xbow arms dealers were MIA when Michigan Bow Hunter’s did the yeoman work to make sure all special needs bowhunters could have available a variety of bows, including prosthetic attachments and xbows.
During the shams that recently passed as committee meetings, it seems the xbow arms dealers co opted Michigan’s NRC and may of our more secular progressive politicians and in doing so, trampled on the input from people like Ron LaClair and others who have unique insight into aspects of stewardship of our precious bow and arrow hunting aesthetic environment.
Opinion
Xbow arms dealers are tapping into the secular progressive wave that is coarsening our culture at large and bow hunting in particular. Fair Chase and it’s noble imperative is fodder for derision and semantic spin from those who believe that killing is what it’s all about. This segment of our hunting society would “use hand grenades if they’re made legal.” Heard one of the leaders for the destruction of our bow hunting aesthetic environment use those exact words. Witness the explosion of killing contests disguised as hunting shows on tv lately. Progressive improvement of hunting ethics? Not in my book.
This issue transcends naïve opines that we’re just a bunch of old farts hanging on to traditional institutions that are out of date. Rather, it’s about a few men and women being brave enough, in the face of the secular progressive tsunami, to take a stand as stewards of something so precious and fragile that it most be defended on a daily basis if we are going to pass it along in some kind of recognizable form to our great grandchildren.
In Michigan, our bow seasons are premised on the fact that Fair Chase plays a larger role in archery hunting than does using the most efficient killing machine available. If the later was a valid argument then there would be no need for a long bow season and we’d all just tip ‘em over with a 22.250 at 500 yds.
Again, the legacy of our archery forefathers is that my son knows the incomparable thrill of what it’s like to count a whitetail’s whiskers before he releases his arrow. And he knows the deep satisfaction vis-à-vis all the work it takes to do it consistently. No, xbows will not affect his adherence to fair chase. But they may become the norm in the woods to a whole generation who have grown up thinking that a bag of garbage, a tree stand and catapult are the traditional gear used for archery hunting. This idea may not be appealing to you folks from other states, but Michigan is the birth place of Fred Bear and all that his name, used to stand for. Years ago, I had a personal conversation with Fred (at the Michigan Deer Spectacular - he was on oxygen but still feisty) concerning the ascension of compounds and xbows. He was clear in his rejection of both for unrestricted inclusion in Michigan's bow season.
The notion that liberalizing weapons will bring more people into hunting is not working nationwide and should not be the vision for Michigan hunting season management.
At the very least politicians are not going to pull the wool over our eyes while they implement so-called progressive polices. Not on my watch.
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I think it passed today, Igot an email back from Sheltrown responding to the one I sent last night.
Those guys are sooo frikkin ignorant it makes me sick! Its all money and numbers.
Eric
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No, it was passed out of Committee via a subsitution bill. The original bill was for those under 69. The new bill is for anyone to be able to use the crossbow. It is now headed to the House floor for their consideration. The real issue is here is that the crossbow pirates are taking advantage of the bowhunter's apathy.
For those from Michigan, please contact YOUR State Representative and urge them to vote no on this bill.
If this passes, opportunity will ultimately be lost as the seasons will most definitely be reduced due to overharvest on bucks during the early season.
Dan
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I was at that meeting as an opponent to the amendment to Bill No. 5741 allowing seniors 69 years and older the use of a crossbow during the regular archery season. Also to support the amendment to House Bill No. 572 on the Modified Bow
Rep Sheltrown pulled a fast one by having crossbow proponents there with a 45 minute pitch for the inclusion of crossbows for everyone in archery season. He also tabled the Bill on the Modified Bow until the next meeting because he said there wouldn't be time to address both Bills.
After the pro crossbow people presented their detailed (BS) presentation, they called up the opponents three at a time. I was called the same time as Bruce Levey and Jerry Keck. After we had our say, they ask if we had anything to present in opposition to the crossbow presentation. Of coarse we didn't because we didn't know the agenda had been changed.
I told them I came to address the matter of crossbows for seniors over 69. I said I felt like I was playing against a stacked deck and had been Blind Sided by the inclusion of crossbows for everyone. We told them that we could furnish rebuttal in a timely matter.
After I got home I made a few phone calls and found out that we could indeed present them with the OTHER side of the story. Both Pope and Young and PBS has things in place for just such a need. The last I knew, Doug Brown is taking care of that.
That meeting gave me a first hand look at dirty politics. It seems to me that Rep Joel Sheltrown is abusing his office to serve his own personal interest and that he should be called out for it.
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Wake up to the game of politics, there is a reason I have never gone to the capital again, for the sake of political change, and that is the reason Mr LaClair speaks of. I had similar experiences in the past with other unrelated issues of legislation. I understand the political machine and you wont catch me running for office ever. It is tiresome, frustrating job that people with any ethics at all will not have the stomach for. Ive had many opportunities too, being very politically involved at college. There is no right and wrong in politics, there is only money. As an economist I know that all you have to do is follow the money trail.
Nonetheless I comend you Ron. In a way I am one of the bad ones bc I gave up on it. But it is up to everyone to keep trying even if it seems fruitless bc that is the only way there is ever going to be change. You can only do what you can do. If you dont like the results of this legislation you have to try like crazy to get the people who share your ideas into office next time.
I did write to my congressman. I gave a short sweet message to hopefully get my point accross in a timely manner (as a bunch of long emails cannot be read quickly) Then I wrote again and gave my educated opinion on why we need to preserve the tradition of michigan bowhunting using all the resources I had on such short notice. Im just glad someone brought it up so I could do as much as I could.
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Joel Sheltrown E-mailed me in response to my letter, and from the tone I got from it, this is all but a done deal.
The statements about money being the cause of all this are true.
According to Joel Sheltrown, there are no drawbacks to a crossbow being included in regular archery season, and the benefits are many.
What happened to "of the people, by the people, for the people"?
I have never met another bowhunter face to face, who was in favor of allowing the use of crossbows.
If so many people are in favor of it, why have I never met one?
I hope the hype fades quickly, and all the crossbows that are sure to be purchased are soon collecting dust.
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According to Mr. ShellClown:
Dear Eric:
House Bill 5741 was adopted by the House Tourism, Outdoor Recreation and Natural Resources Committee today with an overwhelming majority of the committee members in support of the bill. An H-2 version of the bill was adopted allowing crossbow use in any season and for any game in which a compound bow may be used. This version would give Michigan hunters the same rights as hunters in neighboring Ohio and Ontario. I recognize your opposition to this bill. Over the many months in which I have reviewed this issue, my opinion on crossbows has changed. I can find no compelling reason to restrict crossbow use in the archery season only to people who are permanently disabled or even those above a certain age. We may have to simply agree to disagree on this issue. My vote on this issue is what I feel is in the best long-term interest of Michigan hunting.
Michigan hunting is in a crisis. Over the past decade, the number of archery deer hunters in our state has declined from 380,000 to 300,000. Michigan continues to lose hunters at a rate higher than the national average. All the states surrounding Michigan have crossbow laws that are more permissive than Michigan's. The national trend is toward full inclusion rather than age or disability restrictions. Louisiana and South Carolina just adopted full inclusion and Delaware is about to. As I said above, our neighbors in Ohio and Ontario already benefit from full inclusion.
Data from states allowing full inclusion show a greater rate of hunter retention during their archery seasons but no state has experienced an explosion of crossbow hunters. No state allowing full inclusion has found it necessary to restrict season length to address a negative management impact. In addition, hunter accident rates between crossbow users and vertical bow users are nearly identical.
The mechanics and ballistics of a crossbow are very similar to a compound bow. Both use the energy store in the drawn limbs of the bow to create a rapid motion when the string is released to propel an arrow toward a target. The performance of crossbows and compound bows are very different than the performance of firearms.
I recognize the arguments about tradition and that many people feel crossbows are not challenging enough. But allowing some hunters to use crossbows is not going to take away the personal traditions of other hunters. Similar arguments were made when the compound bow was legalized several decades ago. Yet, many bow hunters still enjoy using long bows and recurve bows rather than compound bows. Rather than arguing about what is a bow and what isn't a bow and what bows should be allowed in archery season, all bow hunters should step back and realize the threat hunting faces in our state due to the steady decline in the number of hunters in the field in October and November.
Sincerely,
Joel Sheltrown
State Representative
103rd House District
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Thanks for putting this back up Ron. :readit: He seems like an honest guy, I believe him. :rolleyes:
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He seems like an honest guy, I believe him. :rolleyes:
If the sales of fishing license's dropped off it would be interesting to see if Sheltrown would be in favor of legalizing Dynamite for fishing. Probably not though because there's not enough money in the sale of dynamite. :readit:
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There is a reason that legislators have a lower ranking in polls that GW Bush, and Rep Joel Sheltrown is the poster boy for the dishonesty and corruption in our government that engenders that low opinion from honest and decent citizens.
His filthy deed will not be forgotten. Neither will his enablers in the NRC.
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Rep Sheltrown is no more corrupt than anyone in government, yes even the people that only work for the government too.
When I first read about this bill I thought it might have something to do with the declining number of bowhunters. The number of hunters period is going down in this state though. This can only be a short term solution. The main reason the number of hunters is going down I believe is because the legislation is making more and more inconvienient to do so. That being said maybe it is just video games taking over or who knows but if the trend continues then maybe they will allow dynamite for fishing in the future.
I have been a strong proponent of getting rid of the shotgun zones in MI for years (I will not discuss the reasons here) but now im not so sure bc I am sure that is the road MI is heading down with this new crossbow revolution.
I agree with Sheltrown that this is no more an issue than it was when compounds were introduced but that doesnt mean it should be done. Kind of a progress for progress' sake if you will.
My political fires have been rekindled with this one but please remember no matter what happens out of this, it was done by forces beyond us working for reasons that are not ours. It may have been influenced by only one man but the legacy it leaves behind will effect us all.
Also remember that we are traditional bowhunters who have shunned bow technology. (although not arrow; exception Mr LaClair) And we may be a group that is quite a bit more biased towards the introduction of new tech into our beloved bow season. Having said that I am still totally opposed to the crossbow, period.
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Theres more reasons for declining numbers than the crossbow will begin to fix.
How many Mi. bowhunters are now job hunters, in another state?
Eric
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Maybe Mr. Shelltrown should be invited to Comptons this weekendand we could...lets say...enlighten him!
Eric
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Rep Sheltrown is no more corrupt than anyone in government
http://www.rightmichigan.com/story/2007/10/31/103434/30
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That brings up another good point surrounded by the stench of increasing government revenue. The current state of this.....state..... is one that is definitely going to be easier to get something like this to gain a fury of public support. A public that most likely does not hunt and a public that sees it as a way of increasing the states revenue without raising taxes. As the good Rep said there is a great deal of support. I can definitely see why.
And Ron: Thats quite a list of corruption.
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One can always find support if one knows who to ask.
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I got the MBH Alert.
An hour later, I got an e-mail from Shelteron's office.
I told them what I thought of the bill and asked to see all this glowing praise of the cross gun...never got any response.
Hunter #s are going down in MI because the DNR does not manage the herd, they slaughter it and have NO idea how many deer are where, therefore anywhere other than intensly managed private land, the hunting is depressingly poor.
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There's more
http://www.leadingchange.info/181548.html?*session*id*key*=*session*id*val*
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The day fair chase died…
In a back corner of the downtown Lansing hotel restaurant, and unlikely cabal of competitors fake cheesy grins as they tensely raise their glasses for a toast.
All their hard work has come to fruition: The discovery phase, as they researched which politicians and bureaucrats that held necessary positions, that might be the softest targets; the implementation phase as they put their fat wallets to work further corrupting the already corrupt; the coup de grace phase as they used their hard bought leverage to rig public input and ultimately the voting that would release the treasure they sought: the destruction of another precious institution, fair chase bow hunting in Michigan.
Plausible deniability preempts the immediate presence of most of their operatives from the NRC and from the legislature. But they are toasted in spirit for their efforts.
Like arms dealers in Africa celebrating another culture destroyed -- all in the name of profit -- these merchant assassins will shake hands and head off into their respective safe houses for the time being. They have more targets, more legacies to ruin. This Michigan campaign was tougher than most, thanks to the deep archery roots of some of their opponents. The shallow roots and resulting apathy of the rank and file archery contingent were an unexpected bonus.
Soon they will be competing with each other for the spoils. But tonight they are thankful for politicians and bureaucrats bereft of common decency, conscience, and certainly any significant historical or institutional knowledge of Michigan’s bow hunting heritage. Fair chase is only a nebulous notion to these contemptuous carpetbaggers. Masked by the din of ringing Blackberries, the endorphin rush from their slaughter and strong drink, they never heard the last gasp, the day fair chase died.
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Emotional?
Remember, emotion, the concept of fair chase, is the only reason we don’t allow spear guns to impale brow trout rising to the hatch; as there is no biological (factual) reason for prohibiting it. This same emotion, spirit, was the common thread that made hunting with a bow and arrow a noble exercise.
Our culture grows coarse with the efforts of secular progressive ideology that is intolerant of any traditional institution, regardless how benign or beautiful. From a simple Merry Christmas greeting to the Holy institution of marriage between a man and a woman, to the efforts of NAMBLA to lower the statutory rape age for their prey, or the ACL's jihad against the 10 Commandments posted in courtrooms around the country. Our pop culture is becoming more and more like Rome in the last days.
Bad guys win one today, but they have still lost the war because, as mentioned above, xbows will not be the savior of hunting in Michigan. Too many kids ride the couch playing video games and interacting on the internet to for us to ever again see an influx of new blood into bow hunting. Thus, in time, Michigan pawn shops will be filled to the rafters with even more hunting gear, especially xbows I hope.
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I received the same letter from Sheltron as Eric did in response to my opposition email.
In his letter, Sheltron states "Over the many months in which I have reviewed this issue, my opinion on crossbows has changed." Did he elaborate on this point in the meeting?
Bryan
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In my first correspondance with the Rep. he told me that he had received "hundreds" of hunters asking for the crossbow in archery season.
His assistant that attended the meeting of a crossbow disability workshop, which I was on the committee, said that the Rep had received "dozens" of inquiries on crossbows.
Politicians just make up the numbers as they go along. :rolleyes:
I also am curious as to how the DNR knows how many archery hunters there are in Michigan? I buy a combo liscense every year and they have no clue how what season I use them in. :confused:
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Here's an email list of some of the main players in this travesty:
[email protected],
[email protected],
[email protected],
[email protected],
[email protected],
[email protected],
[email protected],
[email protected],
[email protected],
[email protected],
[email protected],
After the contemptible treatment Ron and company received at the committee/public meeting, these folks might benefit from some feedback.
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Huge e-mail sent to Granholm about 5 minutes ago!!
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Michigan bow hunters I’m deeply sadden for your loss.....stabow
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I understand why people want to use x-bows. It is easy and takes little practice. Now the Detroit want to be hunters can go out drinking and stomp around in our wood messing up the bow season just as they do during gun season.
If hundreds of hunters want to hunt with a x-bow then maybe they can have their own season. After or during gun season. I wonder how many of these hundreds would still want to use an x-bow if it was during gun season.
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Let's quite blaming the internet and video games as the reason kids don't want to hunt any more. Last winter, a young man at my daughters school told me why he doesn't want to hunt as he felt it was "stupid to sit in a tent and watch a pile of carrots" after he successfully shot a deer in this manner on his first and probably last hunt. To him this type of hunt had no sense of fair chase, adventure or challange, so he saw no point in hunting. I have never met this young mans family so I can not say what hunting means to his parents.
We have allowed hunting to be portayed in a manner that shows it has no challange and adventure in the name of easy, sure kills for the sponsers of TV shows to sell product. The non hunters I have contact with do not view deer hunting as it is practiced in Michigan to be related in any way to fair chase hunting. These non hunters view hunting as shooting deer from an enclosed structure over bait, so they see no difference in what kind of weapon is used. It will be hard fo find support on limiting crossbows in this environment. If bow hunters make enough noise, this bill will probably not make it to law. But expect future attempts until it passes.
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Last Arrow, I find that I am in agreement with you on most of what you have stated, I don't think that blame is where we should be looking until we can eliminate this threat.
We have seen these types of legislative "Terrorisum from time to time. I grew up in Michigan, nearing retirement, I have just changed my mind about moving back there.
Tell me gentlemen, what can I do to assist you in this fight. How could this have slipped under the radar? Stealth legislation?
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Originally posted by Scott J. Williams:
Last Arrow, I find that I am in agreement with you on most of what you have stated, I don't think that blame is where we should be looking until we can eliminate this threat.
We have seen these types of legislative "Terrorisum from time to time. I grew up in Michigan, nearing retirement, I have just changed my mind about moving back there.
Tell me gentlemen, what can I do to assist you in this fight. How could this have slipped under the radar? Stealth legislation?
Scott, if you have friends and family in Michigan, please urge them to contact their state Rep and ask them to vote NO on HB 5741. That would be a great help.
This didn't slip under the radar, we knew it was a matter of time before the crossbow manufacturers found another Politician that would be willing to play dirty politics. What was somewhat of a suprise was how easily Rep Sheltrown was able to change the wording from "69 and older" to "everyone" at the last minute and he showed up with 3 clowns to put on a power point presentation to sell it to the gullible politicians on his Committee.
The anti-hunters claim that they will use the ballot box and political arena to end hunting and trapping and this is what the crossbow guys are doing, same exact technique.
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Last Arrow, I too agree with most of your post, but I have first-hand experience with a lot of kids, and it's often a tough sell to get them off the multi-media teat.
Here's what passed today in the Michigan House. 94-15. It's only the opening salvo. Don't let it get you down, as there is some extremely compelling information, a bombshell actually, that will create some considerable embarrassment if not job loss, for one or more criminally dishonest legislators. In the meantime Sheltrowns co sponsors are jumping off his bandwagon in droves. 15 or so, so far. Wise decision on the part of those who are abandoning this terrible injustice.
ALLOW THE USE OF CROSSBOWS
IN ALL MICHIGAN GAME SEASONS
House Bill 5741 (Substitute H-2)
Sponsor: Rep. Joel Sheltrown
Committee: Tourism, Outdoor Recreation and Natural Resources
First Analysis (6-19-08)
BRIEF SUMMARY: The bill would allow crossbows to be used by anyone during any open season for any type of game inMichigan, thereby eliminating the current process by which permanently disabled hunters may hunt with crossbows during the archery deer season only with a permit. (Crossbows may already be used by any hunter, disabled or otherwise, during the firearms deer hunting season.) The bill would allow anyone to use a crossbow during any open game season for any type of game so long as they have a license for that game under Part 435 and comply with all other rules. On the other hand, hunters would still need a permit to use a modified traditional bow, but would be allowed, under the bill, to use a modified bow that could be shot with one arm or one foot.
FISCAL IMPACT: The bill would have an indeterminate fiscal impact on the Game and Fish Protection Fund. The amount of additional revenue would be dependent on the number of new archery licensees.
THE APPARENT PROBLEM:
Some say that the numbers of archery hunters inMichigan are declining and the process by which disabled persons obtain a permit to hunt with a crossbow during the archery deer seasons is too difficult and expensive. Supporters point to some other states such asOhio that have opened up archery deer seasons to crossbows without any apparent problems. Supporters would likeMichigan to likewise allow anyone to use a crossbow during any open game season as a way of retaining and recruiting hunters, promoting equipment sales, and making things easier for disabled persons who cannot hunt with traditional archery equipment but find the permitting process for modified equipment to be difficult.
THE CONTENT OF THEBILL:
The bill would add a new Section 40115 to the Natural Resources and Environmental Protection Act to allow a person to take game with a crossbow during any open hunting season in Michigan if the person holds a license to take the game issued under Part 435 and complies with all other laws and rules for the taking of that game. It would eliminate a reference concerning the issuance of permits to permanently disabled persons to use crossbows, as such permits would no longer be needed.
A permit would still be required, however, to use a modified bow during an archery season, but the bill would allow the use of modified bows that could be shot with one arm or one foot. (New language in italics.)
ARGUMENTS:
For:
Currently, only those individuals who are permanently disabled can use a crossbow during the archery deer season. Some say that only the most severely disabled meet the criteria. Others do not qualify, but still are physically unable to pull or hold a more traditional bow. Moreover, to prove that they have a right to use a crossbow during archery season, a disabled individual must go to the expense, inconvenience, and invasion of privacy involved in getting a physical therapist or doctor to evaluate and certify the extent of his or her disabilities. Why make it so difficult? Why not just let anyone who wants to hunt during archery season choose the equipment that best suits their needs, whether a traditional bow, a compound bow, a crossbow, or a bow that has been modified in some way to accommodate the hunter's physical limitations? This would make the sport more open to all—men and women, young and old, disabled and not—without requiring disabled persons to prove the extent of their limitations in order to have the privilege of using this type of weapon during an archery season.
Michigan has no shortage of deer and is in no danger of having its deer population decimated by allowing the use of crossbows during deer hunting season. In fact, allowing the use of more powerful and easier to use weapons may help control the overpopulation of deer that exists in many areas.
Opening up archery seasons to crossbows will help with hunter recruitment and retention and provide an economic boost toMichigan by potentially expanding the numbers of hunters fromMichigan and other states and by spurring sales of crossbow equipment and related gear. (The sponsor's office indicated it was not aware of any crossbow manufacturers currently located inMichigan, so any economic boost from the bill would be to retailers and from increased hunting-related tourism dollars.)
An increase in the sales of archery equipment and components could result in more federal excise sales tax dollars being funneled toMichigan'sDNR under the federal Pittman-Robertson Act, which distributes excise tax dollars to state wildlife agencies under a federal formula. To the extent that wider use of crossbows led to an increase in the number of hunters, there could be a potential increase in license revenue to theDNR.
Against:
The Natural Resources Council should be making this decision, not the Legislature, under Proposal G, passed in 1996, through which the public chose to entrust the Natural Resources Council with the authority to regulate hunting.
An NRC Crossbow Disability Work Group has been meeting monthly since March of this year. The recommendations of the NRC workgroup would be a better place to start rather this more hastily developed and broader approach. The legitimate rights of the disabled can be accommodated without opening all archery hunting seasons to hunting with crossbows.
Allowing crossbows to be widely used in all game seasons will sooner or later have an impact on the deer population and lead to adjustments of the seasons or bag limits. There will be fewer deer available during the firearms season if many hunters who have hunted with firearms in the past obtain a crossbow to hunt earlier in the fall when temperatures are warmer, conditions are easier, and deer more plentiful. The bill will not recruit or retain new bow hunters but instead will encourage existing firearms hunters to migrate to the bow season. This could eventually end the traditional bow hunting season.
Traditional bow hunters say that the reason that they have a relatively long season is that it is difficult to be successful as a bow hunter, particularly a novice bow hunter. Bow hunting requires different skills than does hunting with a firearm or a crossbow. To be successful, a bow hunter must get very close to unaware prey and pull back on the bow without alerting the animal. To allow crossbow hunting with a trigger-operated weapon with a longer range with no pull back required is to fundamentally change the nature of archery hunting. While traditional bow hunters do not oppose allowing those with disabilities to use crossbows or modified bows that more closely resemble traditional archery equipment, they do not welcome allowing the general public to hunt during bow seasons with equipment that they do not consider to be archery equipment or that does not require traditional archery skills to use.
Given the significant change being made by this bill to a traditional hunting activity of long standing, it would be prudent to take time and care in exploring the ramifications and not rush to act. Are there safety or game regulation concerns relating to the use of crossbows during game seasons other than the firearms deer season? What would be the impact on open game seasons other than the archery deer season? Why would we allow an able-bodied hunter to use a crossbow, which presumably confers a greater advantage to the hunter than a modified bow, but still require a disabled person to obtain a permit to use a modified bow? These questions need careful consideration.
POSITIONS:
The American Crossbow Federation testified in support of the bill. (6-10-08)
The Department of Natural Resources has concerns about the bill. (6-19-08)
The Michigan United Conservation Clubs currently has no position on the use of crossbows during the archery deer season but does support the use of crossbows when they do not do not conflict with existing archery seasons. (6-19-08)
Michigan Bow Hunters is opposed to the bill. (6-18-08)
The North American Bow Hunting Coalition is opposed to the bill. (6-10-08)
Legislative Analyst: Shannan Kane
Fiscal Analyst: Kirk Lindquist
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Thanks for the news Brian. :)
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Here's what hunting archers are up against.
(http://shrewbows.com/rons_linkpics/J_bowx.jpg)
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Here is what I got back from my rep:
Thank you for contacting me regarding House Bill 5741, a bill that would allow an individual to hunt using a crossbow during any hunting season. This will open up the opportunity for disabled hunters and individuals over the age of 69 to be able to hunt with a cross bow during bow season who would otherwise be unable to hunt. Individuals must still obtain the proper license to take game in order to hunt with a crossbow.
There has been lengthy debate within the hunting community regarding the use of crossbows to take game. Some argue this diminishes the skill and integrity of true bow hunting and will have a negative impact on the sport of hunting. However we also need to increase hunter participation numbers in Michigan to help boost our economy and ensure that we have the next generation of hunters.
House Bill 5741 did pass the House of Representatives on June 19th and now goes to the Senate for consideration.
Again, thank you for contacting me regarding this important issue.
It seems to me that my Rep had no idea he was voting to allow crossbows in all seasons.
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widoweater, you need to call this person and explain to him the nuances that make his un informed opinion very dangerous.
Feel free to use any part or all of the following, or use it to help you write your own personal message:
Dear Legislators,
I came to this party late. (I thought we put this to bed in a bi-partisan why 8 years ago!) So now I understand you folks in particular have already stuck a stake in the ground on this crossbow thing. But I would humbly ask you to borrow some wisdom from ol' Abe Lincoln, and reconsider the irreparable damage that will be done to our bow and arrow hunting culture. As you probably already know, "Abraham Lincoln was famous for changing his mind as enlightening information became available -- and that's why he was a giant, and why we still love him for it to this day. "
Like the plains Indian cultures our forefathers destroyed, what you propose to do will, in time, eradicate the institution and historical knowledge and traditions that have served our bow and arrow hunting culture so well for so many generations.
The crossbow lobbyists like to point out that archers have an "emotional response." Well, emotion is the driving force that enforces the fair chase ethics and regulations that affect: bow and arrow hunting (no crossbows or poison arrows), fly fishing (no bait or snagging), and waterfowl hunting (3 shell limit-why? When you kill your limit, you're done, regardless how many shells are in your gun), trapping (nearly all trapping regs are emotional in scope - click here for proof), etc...
All of these sporting environments have fair chase limitations based on human emotion.
I mean, why can't we use a "jack light" at night to hunt deer? It certainly would afford more opportunities for inclusion. As would snagging for salmon, or walleyes, or spawning northern pike, or spear gunning for brown trout rising to the hatch. Think of the increase in license sales if wet-suited spear gunners could snorkel our blue ribbon trout streams? Why not?
Emotion, which translates as the love for and dedication to stewarding the aesthetic aspects of killing animals is what separates user groups from the we-could-care-less killer mentality of weapons arms dealers. Lobbyists.
I know you all "get it" by now. Please don't stubbornly hold on to dry stats that can be, and are, manipulated by lobbyists and those who are not stake holders in the archery hunting environment.
8 years ago, we got to together and wrote a very liberal and inclusive piece of law that cleared the way for special needs archery hunters to use crossbows. If you "truly" believe that it's worth your and Michiganders' time and tax money to scuttle our worthy efforts while substantive issues languish, then it would be nice if you would clarify for the public in general, your new found interest in this already watered grass.
I understand the dynamics of how people can really dig in and not budge on their opinion, but Joel Sheltrown's talking points (coincidentally the same talking points the crossbow lobbyists have been deluging our politicians with) are in fact porous and quite refutable when assessed by someone without an agenda.
From the internet, the best line item refutation of Sheltrowns crossbow lobby talking points I've read:
•Per Rep. Joel Sheltrown:
•"Over the past decade, the number of archery deer hunters in our state has declined from 380,000 to 300,000."
How many gun hunters have we lost?
Shouldn't the state of MI be more concerned with the losses incurred by it's most efficient and numerous segment of hunters?
•"Michigan continues to lose hunters at a rate higher than the national average."
Every state is losing hunters, even crossbow states.
What's the national average? OH has lost almost 30% of it's hunter base since 1990.
The crossbow certainly hasn't helped our neighbor.
•"Data from states allowing full inclusion show a greater rate of hunter retention during their archery seasons but no state has experienced an explosion of crossbow hunters."
This is a blatant mis-representation of fact.
Hunter retention (is) in "archery" season while hunter numbers decline in every other area and season.
Crossbow growth is 17 times greater than vertical bowhunter growth in OH. I believe 66% of Ohio hunters use a crossbow in "archery" season.
(you were conveniently not informed of the devastating effect of the Wall Mart crossbow Tsunami on the small business -- mom and pop archery shops in Ohio -- they are gone, thanks to crossbow replacing vertical bows in Ohio's archery season.)
•"No state allowing full inclusion has found it necessary to restrict season length to address a negative management impact."
Why would they? Biologists control bag limits, they don't care if the deer were killed by a hand grenade, just as long as the deer kill matches their harvest models and goals.
This is very important for you legislators to get your collective heads around: Let's talk revenue, do some research. First license revenue, the only segment that is going to take advantage of this "opportunity" are hunters that are already buying licenses and hunting. With MI's combo-tag system, the crossbow revenue generator is a wash, no impact what so ever.
Their is no evidence that the crossbow alone recruits NEW hunters or retains hunters, NONE, ZERO, ZILCH.
Second, a 1-2 year increase in crossbow sales? Come on, no long term solution there. Especially when these guys realize that the crossbow isn't all it's cracked up to be.
Then what? We'll be right back in the same place very, very shortly.
Is it worth changing the essence and dynamics of this season for ones that already make the CHOICE to participate in this OPPORTUNITY for an extremely short term band aid and the desires of the few that benefit from the inclusion of an entirely different weapon in a long established season?
The crossbow does none of the things they claim it will, NONE.
The crossbow pushers are misrepresenting opinion, estimates, surveys, and "logical conclusions" that are based on incomplete data.
EOM
Thanks for your diligent consideration.
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Im still trying. Sent another message to hopefully get word spread round.
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I just wanted to let fellow tradgangers know this. I wrote my state rep. Steven Lindberg. He e-mailed me today saying that he did not vote for this legislation.
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Its headed for the Senate fellas, time to go to work on your Senator!
Eric
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Michigan Bow Hunters ACTION ALERT!!!
The Michigan House of Representatives has just passed a substitute bill for HB5741 that would make the crossbow a weapon of choice during the archery deer season. If the bill becomes law, it will end bowhunting as we know it in Michigan, the nation’s top bowhunting state.
Michigan currently has more than 400,000 firearm deer hunters who have never taken up the challenge of bowhunting and who would flock to the bow season if they could shoot arrows with guns in October. The resulting social and biological impact will, in all probability, force the DNR to dramatically reduce the length of the archery deer season. The crossbow is not archery equipment, requires no archery skills and is much more user-friendly to firearm hunters than a conventional hand-held bow.
Bowhunting in Michigan faces its greatest threat in 72 years and the future of the sport rests in our hands. We all need to call our State Senator ASAP and urge him or her to vote AGAINST House Bill 5741-S2.
If you are not aware of who is your State Senator you can find out by going to
http://senate.michigan.gov/FindYourSenator/michiganfys.asp
and enter your street address, city and zip code. Click on the "Submit Query" button for the information you'll need to contact your Senator. By phone is best especially since their emails are not read individually because of the volume which they receive.
Bruce Levey
President, Michigan Bow Hunters
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I called my State Sen.who is on the Senate committee for the X-bow bill. I talked to a person in his office for 20 min.They are on
recess for the summer now. I am setting up a meeting in person with my Sen.
Do the same if you can---call them it takes time--if you can get a meeting in person do it-it takes time. If you e-mail-most times you will get a form letter.
My Sen. who is on the committee has only gotten 2 calls against x-bows in archery season. If true it is sad!!!!!!!
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We went through kinda the same thing here in NH and we ended up getting the crossbow usage during the firearms season only,or if your disabled only.I was very happy about this outcome.
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We helped get the disabled permit system several years ago but the crossbow manufacturers weren't happy. Then they get a season for all to use it in the firearms season but they still aren't happy. They won't quit trying until it is available for all to use. With 400,000 firearms hunters that do not bowhunt, the potential for them to make a ton of money on cross overs from this crowd is great, and they know it. $$$$$$$$