Trad Gang
Main Boards => Hunting Legislation & Policies => Topic started by: on September 06, 2008, 08:53:00 AM
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As the current political season unfolds there are many serious (and some not so serious) issues before us. I am having a difficult time warming to the candidates of either party, so I was thinking--what's really important to me personally (aside from peace and prosperity) and who would be the best choice to carry my banner forward. I want access to hunt and fish, and wander. I want the wild places (those that are left) protected from the demon "progress" which, more often than not, means a peculiarly nasty kind of rapeaceous enterprise rather than thoughtful and democratic growth. Then it came to me--the guy who wrote the recent articles in TBM about canned hunts and ATVs on public land--now I can get behind that guy. Dave Petersen. Now all we need is a good VP.......; :)
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Apparently you arent a trapper. Dave Petersen admitedly voted against trapping in Coloradao.
It would be tough for me to get behind a "sportsmen" that plays on both sides of the fence.
Sorry, but for me the world is black and white. You're either fer it or agin it.
Trap
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Nope. Not a trapper. Respect your opinion, though.
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I guess there's no such thing as a perfect candidate. Dave would probably be better than most even as an anti trapper.
Please forgive me for being so abrupt.
Trap
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He'd have my vote. How about Terry Tempest Williams for his V.P.?
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Put Terry on the short list--I was thinking Brenda Valentine but she's a bit on the tech side...got the immense hair and makeup, tho.....
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As a good friend of mine, I'd like to see many of Dave's ideas in the oval office.... but not all of them.
I'd encourage you guys to look at all the issues. Politics are an extremely sticky issue and now I am going to go tread on some awful thin ice... Just because a candidate would vote to keep every one of your outdoors wishes, doesn't make them the best choice.
In the early 1900's, when some saw the need for game laws, many outdoorsmen saw it as a front to their way of life and their traditions, but we wouldn't have our lifestyles now if they didn't have the ability and judgement to take the longview and see what was coming without change.
Anyway, the point I am struggling to get to is not an easy one to convey, but I just want to encourage you to take a small step back and examine more than one issue, and also to examine it from multiple viewpoints.
Mike
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How about Paul brunner for VP? he could be in charge of the ATV's!
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Couldn't agree more, elk ninja. Thus the tongue-in-cheek thread.
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Dave is growing in votes... count me in!
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He's be my appointment for Secretary of the Interior.
Don't be fooled by the "hunter" that's currently running for VP though :scared:
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I hope thats not true on the trapping part! I've thought of moving from CO because of the trapping ban!
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Adam, In his book "Ghost Grizzlies" Dave admits to supporting a ban on trapping.
Trap
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The way I see it we do not have an electable person running.
(http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n140/702plmo/palin.jpg)
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I love to read Dave's articles and agree with most of his opinions that I have read, BUT I began trapping at the age of 7 and I refuse to vote for ANY politician that would be against trapping.
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I think you guys are missing something about Dave and his opinions on trapping.
Maybe I am, not being a trapper though...
But before you form your opinion, why don't you get it from the mouth of the horse, Dave Peterson himself?
He is, to the best of my knowledge, and I consider him a friend, not against trapping, but against a measure that was on the ballot in Colorado.
Mike
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And let's also remember that Dave is not the man who made the law. He voted, just like any other resident of Colorado. His vote doesn't carry anymore weight than anyone else's he just happens to have metioned how he voted in one of his books. Read his work more closely. Dave is a far better friend to ethical hunting than "Uncle Ted" or just about any other "Outdoor personality" you could name. That is all I will say. I have no desire to get into an argument here and Dave doesn't need me to defend him, all I am saying is think a little harder about the "If you aint for us your against us" stance.
Brian
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Brian, I don't plan on getting in an argument either, but please dont ask me to rethink my "if you arent for us your against us" stance. I've already thought about it and I'm not going to change.
The act of trapping is about the easiest outdoor activity to ban by animal rights activists. It's often been said that an organized boy scout troop could ban trapping at the local level if they so desired. There arent many trappers in the grand scheme of things and their needs, rights and priviledges are often overlooked by other members of the "sporting" fraternity.
I dont live in Colorado and have only visited it a few times but it's not hard to see, even from this far away, that sportsmen's rights are being challenged in Colorado. Every victory, such as a ban on trapping, further fuels the liberal's onslaught of those rights. A ban on trapping in any state is just the beginning and just a little piece of the puzzle. If you're happy with the loss of trapping in Colorado and the other outdoor pursuits that have been lost there, then so be it.
I find it interesting that outdoor writers in general can have such a loyal folowing. I have enjoyed reading some of Dave's books and his column in TBM, but I don't believe he is necessarily suited for the White House. I am a trapper and proud of it. The right to trap means as much to me as the right to bowhunt. My family depends on the added income from trapping, just as it does from the addition of venison in the freezer. I wouldnt take a chance at losing either of those rights by voting for someone that would toss trappers under the bus. If that was not his intention then I owe him an apology.
I'll be the first to admit that maybe I've missed something. So I'll do what elk ninja suggests
Mr Petersen, this topic has come up several times on internet forums and around a few camfires I'm sure. My question for you is, Did you support a ban on trapping in the state of Colorado and if so why?
Respectfully submitted by,
Daryl Damron "Trap"
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Well said trap!
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Easy, folks-- this was meant to be a 'fun' thread. I don't know Dave Petersen personally but I speculate that one of the best things about him as a candidate is that if his nomination was ever a real possibility he'd head for that little elk hidey hole of his in the mountains. I don't think of him as an 'outdoor personality'--that would be Ted Nugent-- Dave is just a good writer with good ideas about preservation of this beautiful planet and its critters.
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Oops! It was not my intention to portray Dave as an outdoor personality. Please don't take that impression from what I wrote. SORRY DAVE!!!!! I am just a huge fan of Dave's work and have corresponded with him via e-mail so I guess I should just shutup and let Dave speak for himself.
Once again sorry Dave.
Brian
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David has a wonderful mind. Yet people of his caliber are never fully appreciated in their own time. It’ll take a hundred years and a lot more “progress” before people begin to realize that he is truly brilliant.
I haven’t read ghost grizzlies yet, though he hinted at anti trapping sentiments in other works. Even though, I’d love to share a campfire with the man.
For president we need another Teddy Roosevelt, hands down.
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Got that right. Let's dig up T.R and run him against the current crop!
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From President Theodore Roosevelt's first annual message to Congress: " Wise forest production does not mean the withdrawal of forest resources, whether of wood, water, or grass, from contributing their full share to the welfare of the people, but, on the contrary, gives assurance of larger and more certain supplies. The fundamental idea of forestry is the perpetuation of forests by use. Forest protection is not an end in itself; it is a means to increase and sustain the resources of our country and the industries which depend on them."
From T. R.'s 4th annual message to Congress: " It is the cardinal principle of the forest-reserve policy of this Administration that the reserves are for use. Whatever interferes with the use of their resources is to be avoided by every possible means. But these resources must be used in such a way as to make them permanent."
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Hunt, Trap , Fish if your not for all of them... Go sit DOWN....
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Ah, dear friends and critics. Sorry to be late, but I've been hunting nonstop for some time and only just tonight got this thread from a "friend." As a man I honor for his convictions once advised, "If you don't stand for something, you stand for nothing." What I stand for changes as times change and as I learn. Am I against trapping? Depends. Among my closest friends is a true AK bushrat who has subsisted 125 miles from the nearest road or village, in a relatively game-poor part of interior AK, for nearly 30 years. His annual income is around $10,000, including the free oil money all Alaskans get from politicians who want them to keep voting for more pipelines, part from weaving Athapaskan style baskets from all local natural materials that he and his family send out by their semi-annual bushplane visits to Fairbanks, where they are sold in tourist shops (and native Indians who have lost the art come to him to relean them). The rest from trapping of martin, 30 to 50 a year. He doesn't like it, but he needs to do it. My "fault" as many view it is that I care a great deal about the animals we catch, hunt, and trap ... more, bottom line, than I care for any of our "sport" activities, though hunting has shaped and still drives my life. In a wildlife meeting once, the state commission chair, tired of hearing everyone say "I want more and more," said "Isn't anyone willing to give anything back to the resource." To which I said "If I saw convincing evidence that I needed to quit hunting elk, for the elk's sake, it would cut a huge chunk out of my life but I would do it." Everyone in the room, including the commissioner, looked at me like I was crazy. Some will understand that it was a defining moment in my learning. Specifically, I would like to see an end to leg hold traps in favor of Connibear and other instant-kill traps, which my AK friend, by the way, has long used. It's the prolonged suffering in non-kill traps I can't stomach, esp. when some weekend trappers check their sets only weekly. Nothing is black and white. Everything is subtle shades of gray. And while I greatly appreciate the nomination, huntryx, indeed, anyone who makes a career of politics is either a martyr or a monster. Many are part both. The only thing I am "running for" is retirement, which I will never be able to afford since I chose to be a non-commercial writer and live in elk country over taking a "real" job. And no regrets. In a world where everyone things alike, there is no thinking at all. Thanks again, Dave
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I write with reluctance for I dont want to come across too personal, but I feel like it needs to be said. I give a great deal of respect to most opinions on the basis that everyone is different. In fact some of Daves Ideas are spot on with mine. I just dont understand the intolerance, or the need to completely bewiddle someones integrity as a human being just because they choose to do things a little different. There is right and wrong, but there happens to be a lot of grey area, as someone just said. So while we dont have to join forces with those whos actions "repulse" us, we should at the very least try not to execute those whom we dont even know. Sorry.
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Shane I'm a bit confused--could you be more specific?? Dave, I am beyond disappointment although I do think it proves my point--those who should run don't want to. Integrity is in short supply in Washington DC.
"Illigitimatii non laborandum".......
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Dave you are miss informed on trapping. Inform yourself then speak.
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Huntryx, I am more refering to the recent writings in Traditional Bowhunter.
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“Fault”, I can find none with someone who genuinely cares for wildlife. Any human who is selfless enough to take into consideration the welfare of the resource above their own wants or “needs” has my respect. On the other hand, many people, some of whom consider themselves “avid sportsman”, think of wildlife only as property. With this type of attitude, it’s easy to be disconnected and indifferent. One glaring example of this lack of respect is shed hunting on winter range – not all, but some. For example, when folks chase or push a deer herd that is already stressed and perhaps on the brink of starvation, just for an antler. Or when, as Dave says “weekend trappers check their sets only weekly” leaving animals to languish for days on end.
As far as leg hold traps go, if used responsibly they are humane enough. Using connibear on canids just isn’t practical. There are slobs in all ranks, even our own.
ch
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Interesting topic. After finishing the 2 articles in the lastest TBM I thought about sending the editors an email expressing my disgust for the text. While I do not own an ATV nor do I plan on getting one, I find Mr. Petersens' views basicly no different than the ATV crowd. Both are acting childish about access/right to use land. Both have a right to be thier even if the other one does not like it. I understand about ATV noise and I don't like it either but heck the owners are following the rules(should be). I have spent years hunting whitetails in Alabama and Georgia and everyone on every lease I have hunted has a 4 wheeler to get to and from camp.
And the canned hunt thing.Well living in Texas is different than atleast 48 other states.EVERYTHING here is owned by someone not named Uncle Sam. And if you are a father of 4, work 50 hrs a week and do not own land. here are your choices: (1) pay for a hunting permit and then apply for a lottery hunt with a very low chance of getting drawn for an area that might be 400 miles from your house with antler restrictions that basicly say P&Y only (2) buy your way onto a lease with guys runnin4 wheelers to and from camp and FEEDERS (3) hunt a day lease high fence or low, and pay 500.00 or more per killed animal or (4) don't hunt. So from a high perch what is a guy to do? Me, I go out of state once a year for 4 days, hunt a low fence place once a year, and trade work to hunt pigs once a year. I don't have the money to hunt a high fence place but I don't think any less of those that do. The animal is not going into P&Y so what do I care? The person doing the shooting is putting money into archery by buying gear ,helping conservation efforts with tag purchases and in general is having a good time with family,friends or enjoying the silence. In any event I don't think it was his place to put down the guys that do go to these places. And in Texas a large percent of the trad shooters do go to these outfits.
So in short, I would vote for the other guy or girl.
Kirk
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Kirk,
I will not pretend to speak for Dave nor will I profess to know about hunting or outdoor activities in Texas or any Eastern states.
I can speak on what I have seen out here in Idaho which seems to be representative of most of the mountain West states.
"I understand about ATV noise and I don't like it either but heck the owners are following the rules(should be)." quoted from your post.
I would prefer that your statement were true but here it is not. Much of gov't managed land has regulations about off highway vehicle use. Much of it is ignored by the users. Many areas have limited OHV use to existing roads that can be travelled by trucks and cars, including secondary logging roads. This does not stop many users from barreling around the mountains on closed roads or making their own trails creating erosion and habitat loss. Wildlife managers co-ordinate with state and federal land use managers to create wintering ground areas for our beloved elk and deer in areas that are supposed to be off limits to motorized traffic to help prevent pushing wildlife (which diminishes their Winter fat reserves) and poaching. These restrictions are ignored by OHV users as well.
I don't mean just one bad apple, either. I have had many encounters with 4 wheelers and snowmobiles while hunting in non-motorized areas. While hunting, I have walked in 4 to 5 miles from the last motorized point and been overtaken by them - once a 6 wheeler with 4 guys on it! If this has happened to me in just my time afield, it is happening a lot. I have family and friends with the same experience.
Additionally, development is taking place at an alarming rate in wintering grounds adjacent to these gov't managed lands. This compounds the problems of Winter carry over and the next year's recruitment in wildlife populations.
So, while in some states the OHV issue while annoying is legal, in much of the mountain West we will only have dreams of how it used to be unless the voices of those who stand for the welfare of the animals are listened to. The U.S Forest Service office in my area told me that they are developing new regulations but they also acknowledge that they can't even enforce the ones they currently have due to politics and short staffing.
Dave Peterson and many others are the voices leading the charge for the preservation of the resources we all love and 'ooh and ahh' at from Trad Gang posted photos.
Ray
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Thank You for responding to my question Dave, I wondered if you would and I’m glad you did. It’s always better to hear it from the source.
I’m going to do my best at saying something that concerns me without making too many enemies along the way. I agree that the world is a better place because we all think a little differently. I’m also thankful there are a few people out there with the ability to think for themselves and not just follow the opinions and teachings of others which they hold up on a pedestal.
I would agree with Tdog’s statement that you should educate yourself about trapping before writing about it and vocalizing your opinions in public because of the potential damage your “celebrity” status is capable of. Why do I say this? The description of trapping you just gave in your response is not an accurate description of trapping in general. There may be a few states that allow trappers to make sets on the weekend and not run those traps until the following weekend but those states are few and far between. I couldn’t agree more that the laws in those states should be changed but I don’t believe trapping should be banned in said states. It should be made better. Ethical trappers would never consider this practice. Let’s all work together to make trapping and hunting more ethical by supporting positive changes in methodology which leads to a higher awareness for animal welfare. Let’s not just ban it because we don’t like it the way it is.
When you make claims that “leghold” traps should be replaced by Conibear traps you further display your lack of knowledge about trapping, especially in the Eastern U.S. Try catching coyotes in conibear or “killer” type traps while not risking the life of an upland hunter’s fine German Shorthair or a western hunter’s lion dog. Where conibear type traps can be used safely and effectively I’m all for them but there are situations where they just don’t apply.
The Association of Fish and Wildlife Agencies (AFWA) is in the final stages of a Trapping Best Management Practices (BMP) study that is addressing animal welfare, trap selectivity, efficiency, and safety for various trap types and animals caught in those devices. Once completed the results of the BMP will be available in the form of recommendations for state wildlife agencies to use in development of trapping regulations.
As a biologist I tend to focus more on populations of animals instead of individuals. I agree that each animal taken by trap, gun or bow deserve our respect. Trapping is a highly regulated activity focused on the harvest of abundant wildlife species. Canine distemper, sarcoptic mange, raccoon rabies and others are diseases that concern me and are more prevalent in areas with high population densities.
(http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa277/DUCK_TRAP/dumpstercoons.png)
Without trapping, the U.S. would suffer more losses from these diseases than it currently does. Trapping of furbearers benefits other wildlife populations such as ground nesting birds as well. Quail, pheasant, turkeys, grouse and many other species are subject to nesting failures where raccoons, skunks and o’possum populations are too dense. It’s hard to trap raccoons in the Midwest without killing beagles if you’re restricted to Conibear use. There are several traps currently on the market that are completely “dog-proof” and with these traps animal welfare scores have been extremely favorable through AFWA testing.
Colorado has lost a lot. Spring Bear hunting, hunting bears with dogs and bear baiting became a thing of the past when Amendment 10 passed in 1992. In 1997 Coloradoans lost their right to use “foothold” traps. They will likely lose the right to kill bobcats in the future because of the likeness bobcats have to the federally threatened Lynx. The fact that mountain lions have killed and attacked a few people in recent times is probably the only reason Coloradoans can still hunt them but the sentiment is changing. Here’s an excerpt from a public opinion survey recently administered in Colorado.
“The hunting of mountain lions is a fractious issue. Respondents are split on this issue, with 47 percent supporting legal and regulated hunting
and 41 percent opposed to it. Those who were opposed to it were more likely to feel strongly about this issue (18 percent strongly support hunting,
and 24 percent strongly oppose it). In response to a question about whether or not mountain lion hunting should be banned, 46 percent disagreed with
a ban, while 34 percent agreed with a ban.”
Dave, I don’t know how you stand or stood on those non-trapping issues but as I stated in a previous post, the banning of trapping is just a small victory for the antis in the large war being waged against the outdoorsman’s way of life. It’s sad to know a fellow sportsman aided their cause. The role you played in that is not unlike that of a Hollywood celebrity that is asked to speak at an animal rights fundraiser. It really makes no difference how much the celeb knows about the issue. It’s just important that he/she has a following that will get on board for the battle.
You’ve willingly tossed trappers under the bus in the past and it now appears that through your recent TBM articles you are trying to garnish support from the traditional bowhunting community for your war against development of public lands and ATV use on said lands. Some of which, are ATV owning trappers.
Let me see, I doubt many knowing trapper’s, or folks that hunt behind fences (even those fenced areas of mammoth proportions) or ATV owners will be with you on the firing line. You’re running out of soldiers my friend.
After reading your response to the question I asked you, I kinda formed my own opinion from your answer. You voted to support a ban on trapping because you didn’t care about trappers and you probably still don’t . The sad thing is, you could have just as easily worked to change trapping and used your celebrity status in a positive way , thus preserving trapping in the state of Colorado. Why bother right, you had nothing at stake in the fight? Or did you?
I’m not saying we should all prescribe to the big tent theory. Heck, there are a lot of things inside the tent I’m against as well, however, I’m not one to shake the ridge pole from inside the tent. I’d rather help tidy it up with my brothers. There are enough people on the outside tugging at the corners as it is.
Just remember, as I stated before, in the grand scheme of things, there really aren’t that many trappers out there, but there arent that many Longbow “Purists” out there either. Hopefully the anti's sights won’t be set on them next.
Daryl
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Ray's got it. I'm from the south and currently living in Idaho. ATV's are a whole different animal out here. It's disgusting! I've seen guys busting through the sage brush in the spring looking for sheds and pushing deer and elk as they go. I’m sure there are many ATV users that follow the rules, but many more that don’t. There’s no way the officers can keep tabs on all the back country out here. The slob users know and exploit it. I haven’t read Dave’s article, so I can’t comment on what was said.
ch
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Well said Trap.
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Clay, I should have not been so willing to think people follow the law. If what you are saying is the truth it sounds as though the managers of said lands need to rule with an iron fist. I have no tolerance for those that break game laws or land management regulations.If it says no fires, it means no fires! So I guess I need to alter my stance a bit. If they are riding in allowed areas,fine. If they drive through MY camp we gonna talk!
In the south eastern U.S. we have lost all large predators and the coyote populations is steady climbing, not to mention, coon, skunks, and feral hogs. While everything has its place nothing is controlling the yotes. Leghold sets and bowhunting/gun hunting them is the only means of control. I have help track 5 deer in Alabama that were lost to yotes in matter of 2-10 hrs after the shot. I don't like the doctor either but somethings ya just gotta do.
kirk
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Trap you obviously put considerable work into your thoughtful ideas and responses on this thread.
It is clear you have a lot of knowledge on trapping and hunting few of us can equal, especially being coupled with a Field Biologist's expertise as well.
Thanks for taking the time to enable us to undestand the picture more clearly.
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Trap, awesome post. Some of the best true Conservationists come from the trapping community and I have trapped for most of the past 35 years and if I thought for one second that trapping was cruel or inhumane or caused ANY suffering whatsoever, I would not trap. I have to agree that people that are against trapping have never done it and are extremely misinformed. :readit:
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Trap, well thought out and explained post...you are gem among us fellow trappers! We tend to spend much more time educating people on trapping than we do actually trapping these days.
May your lines be full of fur, and your arrows fly true this fall!
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I don't have a problem with trapping or ATVs when laws are followed. My experiences aren't very good though.
There aren't many trappers in CT, but of the 6 I've talked to only one checks his traps daily as required by law.
ATVs (grouping 4-wheelers, motorbikes and snowmobiles here) are only allowed in designated areas... so why are many of the state forests tore up?
Trapping and ATVs have their place, but laws need to be followed (and enforced) and I don't see where that's happening in CT or back home in NY.
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Well said Trap
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Your passion shows through, Trap; a very thoughtful and well-stated response. If all folks who trap, ride ATVs, etc., did so not only according to the usually minal standards required by law, much less with passion and insight for others, the prey and the larger world, we wouldn't have to be against anything. For the record, I am not against ATVs per se. I am absolutely against the widespread abuse and overuse, esp. during hunting season, as mentioned by Ray and others. These machines and people whose butts seem glued to them have cost me most of my best hunting spots in recent years, so my views are not just theoretical -- very personal assaults on my access rights. We all have a right to use our public lands. But nobod has a right to destroy the resource or ruin things for everyone else. My article in TBM tried to hilight a few of the dozens of scientific studies documenting that elk don't like ATVs and just a few hunters using them carelessly during early archery and muzzleloaders seasons are capable of pushing elk off public land and down onto private land where they're not harassed ... and where hunters can't get at them. Bad for elk, bad for hunting. An inappropriate use. My canned killing article was, admittedly, over the top with disguest and rage. I was not talking about 10,000 acre Texas hi-fenced operations, nor, as a letter writer to TBM spent two pages talking about, African hunts. I tried to make it clear that I was talking about the standard western elk farm, where big bulls are shipped in horse trailers from non-killing farms to those that do shoots and sometimes executed in spaces as amall as a single acre, though a few hundred acres is more typical so the "hunters" can feel they've had a chase. I am happy to take flak for what I say, and happy to be proven wrong. It's tiresome thought to have folks argue with me about things I never said. I wish they hadn't run both those articles in the same issue ... a bit too much venom for even me. Thanks to all of you for your own thoughts. Time now for the evening hunt. Tomorrow, the last day, I'll be out all day, likely again in the rain. A true hunt is always a joy, a learning experience, and full of good memories. The desire to kill without hunting eludes me. Cheers, dave
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Such a diverse post! I’m sorry Dave, but you just wouldn’t cut it as a presidential candidate. You can’t tell folks what you really think. You might make an enemy that way. :D
On ATV use. In my part of the Idaho, it’s hard enough to look at a forest service map and find a place that doesn’t have a legal ATV trail on top of every ridge and along every creek. While looking over some maps last year I found what looked like a good prospect. I took a hike to check the place out and wasn’t disappointed; nice creek bottom, aspen, bear and elk sign. I was starting to get that feeling. You know, the one you get when hunting season is just a month away and you think you’ve found the spot. After finding a nice spring and the perfect hiding spot I hiked up a little rise to get a look at the whole picture. Guess what I found on top, not 200 yards from my spring. Yep, an illegal ATV trail. Point being, it’s hard to get away from the things. :mad:
Around here, hunters that don’t mind a hike, flock to the few areas that you can get away from ATVs. Last year Idaho Fish and Game did a survey of mule deer hunters. One of the concerns that many (around 68%) had was the increasing presence of ATVs in areas that they hunt. They want less ATV traffic! That kinda makes me wonder why virtually no existing trails are being closed to motorized traffic and still others are being created (illegally and by government agencies). Enforcement is a big problem on all the federal land out here. One way the forest service is dealing with this is to legalize existing illegal trails. That makes since. Hmmm, if their gonna do it lets just make it legal, then we don’t have to worry about it any more. Great job guys. :thumbsup: :banghead:
Dave is exactly right about elk avoiding roads and ATVs (again, I haven’t read the article, so I can’t comment on that). It’s been documented time and time again. Why aren’t more elk hunters calling their f&g commissioners and representatives and telling them they want tighter regs on ATV use? More non motorized areas equals better hunting. It’s that simple. Oh yea, that is if you don’t mind the hike.
ch
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I’ve been lurking here on this forum for some time, and for the first time have felt compelled to respond. Specifically, to the issue of trapping and to a man I deeply respect, Dave Petersen.
Dave, I’ve read (and own)every book you’ve penned and have always found you to be an inspiration in my way of life and my personal views on hunting and ethics of the hunt. Like you, I have chosen a simpler way of life and live in a small log cabin “on the edge of wilderness”, although I do commute 120 miles/day to be able to do that; it’s worth it. I explain this only to show you that my response is in no way a “fight back” type of post, but rather to suggest that I have a little insight into the life you've chosen, I think I know you; - a little.
I agree with you on ATV’s and their misuse, like you I use my body and believe that it shouldn’t come easy, I could never see myself hunting a “canned” hunt, or for that matter shooting a bear over bait (as unpopular as that statement may be with some forum members) or in fact any bear, and they live around me. For me, it comes down to ethics and a deeply seated respect for the wildlife and the hunt, and what the “hunt” represents. I am a traditional archer and I believe myself to be an ethical hunter, the kill is not what I seek but rather the time spent in fair chase and the environs that the hunt takes me.
At 52 years old I’ve been hunting since I was 16, but I’ve trapped on and off even longer. My respect for wildlife and hunting and conservation in general can be traced back to my early exposure to the outdoors through furbearer trapping, not hunting. My ethics were born out of trapping, I learned at an early age that hard work is involved and to never take anything for granted that mother nature has given us, and to respect the animal and to be an example for future generations. And throughout these years I have worked hard with trapping organizations to fight legislation to ban trapping as hard as I have fought with my local bow clubs to fight the crossbow being allowed during the bow season in my state. So when I speak of trapping, or for that matter hunting, I believe I can speak knowledgeably about both having participated and having been close to both pursuits for most of my life. I share the same passion for both, they both make up who I am and “shape and drive my life”.
Dave, when you say “the prolonged suffering in non-kill traps I can't stomach, esp. when some weekend trappers check their sets only weekly”, you speak without the first hand knowledge of the trappers art and in fact, it reeks of the fabricated un-truths spoken by the misinformed so called “defenders of wildlife” and their associated groups. You intentionally throw out a statement that people will latch onto and it will stick in their heads and somewhere down the road it becomes to them symbolic of what trapping is, just as it has apparently done with you. It is a careless statement Dave. We haven’t the space here for me to go into the laws of trapping nor the ethics of those I have been associated with during my years afield, but I will give the benefit of the doubt to all trappers; there is no money in it these days, instead those who still do it do it for the same reasons that you and I hunt, whether it be daily or on weekends when they can, they love it and they love where it takes them, and they do it ethically. And yes, there are slobs in all sports. Someone in a post above mentioned that he knew a few trappers and only one checks his traps daily, I then ask of you sir; what did you do about it? Did you report them? If you witnessed someone poach a deer or elk would you report them? If we don’t police these pursuits then the slobs will always be there.
You mention Dave a friend in interior AK, and you rationalize that it is different for him as he must trap, and that he doesn’t like it but he must earn a living. BS. Life is full of choices, if he didn’t like it then he could move to where he didn’t have to trap for money, he could change his life, this isn’t the 1800’s. You can’t pick and choose where it’s wrong and where it’s right Dave; you’re either for or against. It’s the same with hunting, one could rationalize that he/she agrees with hunting for your friend in AK as it is more subsistence driven, but you could certainly go to the supermarket Dave!
You mention limiting the pursuit of trapping to killer traps only, getting rid of the leghold traps. Trap has done a fantastic job above of explaining the pitfalls and hazards of allowing that to happen, so I won’t go into it other than to say I agree with Trap and I would bet that he and I both could give you some factual evidence that would spin your desire 360 degrees back to the leghold. Why shouldn’t we also limit all big game hunting to rifle and/or crossbow? They are more accurate and there is less chance of the lazy hunter who won’t practice his art of injuring the animal thereby causing needless suffering?
Dave, I live in southwestern NY, I have a neighbor who is an artist that you know very well, and I have been fortunate enough to have had the opportunity to visit with him and see his gallery and view his lifestyle. And as you know, he has spent many years as a trapper and as a traditional bowhunter. When you look at his painting of an elk in the dark forest, it evokes a feeling inside you that is akin to me looking at his painting of a muskrat trapper in the marsh at sunrise.
We are not so different Dave, the trapper and the hunter. The desire to kill without the hunt eludes both of us…………
Jim
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Jim, very, very well put. Thank you for taking the time to participate as there are those of us that cannot seem to put into words and express ourselves as you and Trap have. :campfire:
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I must say, Jim, that was pretty damn good!
ch
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Jim, Very well said fellow trapper and hunter.
:thumbsup:
Trap