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Main Boards => Hunting Legislation & Policies => Topic started by: 2-BIG on February 12, 2009, 08:24:00 PM
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I know that this is getting old but I would like to inform all of you bowhunters in Michigan of the latest crossbow inclusion attempts.
On March 5th the NRC will vote on these 3 proposals:
1. Crosssbows will be legal to use in any season where a firearms season is...i.e. turkey, bear, small game, etc...
2. Crossbows for those 65 and older to use in archery only season.
3. Crossbows in the entire month of December for deer.
As for proposal #1 it is a firearms related issue but I am dead set against #2 and #3.
A committe which had the testimony of doctors and physical therapists testified that there should NOT be a minimum age limit set for crossbow use as age does not play a factor in one's ability to draw a conventional bow.
Crossbows in December is giving up some stand alone archery days.
The amazing thing about this whole deal is that is is probably going to pass all 3 proposals and it has the support of a few bowhunters who believe we need to compromise and show good faith!
We need all the support we can get at this meeting in March. I will post the meeting agenda as soon as I receive it.
The public speaking portion is always at 4:30 pm so if you wish to speak you can e-mail Teresa Gloden and request to speak and you will be placed on the agenda to speak for 5 minutes. If you wish to wait to speak you can fill out a card at the meeting and speak for 3 minutes.
Here is Teresa's e-mail: [email protected]
I will keep you folks updated and lets overwhelm the meeting with concerned bowhunters!
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Thanks for the update. I just saw the PSE TAC-15 crossbow at our local shop and I can't believe they want us to include that in Archery season. They say 1 hole groups at 100 yards, 5" groups at 200 yards. That is from the rep! He asked if I wanted to shoot it. i couldn't even look at it without wanting to barf. Crossbows have a season, Nov.15-30. They are available to disadvantaged hunters. They want everything and shamefully we have too many that want to give it to them. My reps will be at at a local meeting. I hope to get there and talk to them.
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Are you guys in a big tent; or arguing separately from those that supported this crossbow deal?
What is the MUCC opinion of this; what are the bow organizations saying?
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Originally posted by Brian Krebs:
Are you guys in a big tent; or arguing separately from those that supported this crossbow deal?
What is the MUCC opinion of this; what are the bow organizations saying?
We never have been nor will we ever be in the big tent....that is why I posted this and am asking for support at the meeting. I will not speak for any organization other than MTB as I am the Vice President. I am currently in the process of talking with the other organizations and see no reason why they would support these proposals.
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Jim, Have you seen the PSE ad flyer for their TAC-15 crossbow. Maybe if some at that meeting could see what that weapon looks like and it's capabilities they would realize it has no business in Archery season. I can send you some if it would be helpful. The TAC stands for Tactical Assualt Crossbow.
Mike Gerard
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Mike I've seen it and so has the NRC. When it was brought up at the meeting the PSE Rep did quite a tap dance around it and made themselves look pretty stupid. The rest of the crossgun guys are pretty angry at PSE for releasing this weapon before they got full inclusion! :biglaugh:
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Thanks for staying involved Jim and the updates.
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Originally posted by owlbait:
Thanks for staying involved Jim and the updates.
:thumbsup:
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I'm saddened by this-I've wrote to the DNR but I think it's a done deal that at least one will pass. Crossbows arean't archery gear but I'm afraid the deck is too stacked. I'm going to fire off another letter. Just like muzzleloaders-when the DNR first granted the season, it was because guys were using a primitive style flintlock or percussion cap rifle. Now it has been totally perverted by hi-tech weapons with little resemblance to them. Many guys hunt in Zone 3 with them in the regular firearms season since in many ways they a comparable to high powered center shot rifles.
For reference where will the meeting be? Would submitting a petition from MTB members be of any help?
Ditto from me Jim on keeping us informed.
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Originally posted by owlbait:
I just saw the PSE TAC-15 crossbow at our local shop and I can't believe they want us to include that in Archery season. They say 1 hole groups at 100 yards, 5" groups at 200 yards.
That's just sick. You might as well be shooting a 30/30. Good luck up there in MI. Hopefully y'all will fair better than we did in LA.
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You know how I feel Jim! Fight it all the way!!!
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Originally posted by EDW:
I'm saddened by this-I've wrote to the DNR but I think it's a done deal that at least one will pass. Crossbows arean't archery gear but I'm afraid the deck is too stacked. I'm going to fire off another letter. Just like muzzleloaders-when the DNR first granted the season, it was because guys were using a primitive style flintlock or percussion cap rifle. Now it has been totally perverted by hi-tech weapons with little resemblance to them. Many guys hunt in Zone 3 with them in the regular firearms season since in many ways they a comparable to high powered center shot rifles.
For reference where will the meeting be? Would submitting a petition from MTB members be of any help?
Ditto from me Jim on keeping us informed.
Eric, we have 3 people as of right now that will be speaking at the NRC meeting and representing MTB so they will definitely know our stance. We could use as many bowhunters as possible there for support as well as speaking on their own.
The x-bow guys have showed up in full force the past couple meetings and we have had very few bowhunters show up. This gives the perception to the NRC, most of which do not bowhunt, the perception that the crossbow guys care more about the issues than the bowhunters do. Basically we need all the help we can get. The meeting is March 5th at the Lansing Center. The public will be allowed to speak beginning at 4:30 and the NRC will vote on the proposals as soon as the speaking is done. I will post more on this as soon as I receive the NRC meeting agenda.
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I just received the agenda for the March 5th meeting. Here is a link for the agenda: http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dnr/agnMAR09_267651_7.pdf
Here is a link to the wildlife order that they are voting on: http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dnr/02-09_Crossbow_rev_Final_2.9.06_1_267626_7.pdf
If you look at the public speakers on the agenda, which is at 4:30pm, there is only a couple bowhunters, myself included, but MANY crossbow representatives! This will be voted on as soon as the public speaking portion is over. We need as many people as we can to show up and fill out a card to speak for 3 minutes. If you can get there around 4:15, you will be able to fill one out.
The future of bowhunting in Michigan will be decided at this meeting so lets show them that we won't go down without a fight!!!! :mad:
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Jim,
Is there anyway we could sign/send an online petetion against the further inclusion/encroachment of crossguns into archery season? There is no way I can make it to Lansing on March 5th.
Mike Gerard owlbait
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Mike, I've been told that an online petition is considered invalid and they give no weight to it. I understand that most people will be unable to make it and I believe that they have these meetings at the times they do, and always on a work day (Thursday), so not very many people can attend.
I can tell you that they have said that the Commissioners have been receiving a lot of support for the crossbow via the telephone.
I will post their contact information so those that cannot attend can at least talk to them and voice their opinion. A letter may also be sent.
Mary C. Brown
1624 Grand Avenue
Kalamazoo, MI 49006
269-344-3738 (Office)
Keith J. Charters (Chair)
126 Spring Hill Road.
Traverse City, MI 49686
517-373-2352 (Office)
Hurley J. Coleman, Jr.
2405 Bay Road
Saginaw, MI 48602
989-752-7957 (Office)
John Madigan
831 W. Munising Avenue
Munising, MI 49862
906-387-4468 (Office)
J. R. Richardson
36658 McGuire Road
Ontonagon, MI 49953
906-885-7187 (Office)
Frank C. Wheatlake
Reed City Power Line Supply,
420 N. Roth Street,
P.O. Box 147
Reed City, MI 49677
231-796-5491 (Home)
231-832-2258 (Office)
Rebecca Humphries
MDNR Director
Mason Building
Sixth Floor
P.O. Box 30028
Lansing, MI 48909
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Thanks Jim, I'll get letters out this week.
Mike
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Jim,
Here's copy of my letters:
Opposition to Changes to Crossbow Regulations
Dear :
I am writing in opposition to any changes to the current crossbow regulations. The current regulations were agreed upon through hard work and input from Michigan Bowhunting Organizations. Michigan’s archery season were brought about also by the hard work and effort of Archery pioneers. That is what archery is about, hard work and effort toward a quality hunting opportunity. Further inclusion of crossbows into Archery season will detract from the quality experience that is part of the Michigan Deer Archery experience.
Our current regulations allow 10 year olds to hunt with archery equipment. Do we really need more people in the woods who aren’t willing to invest the effort and practice that allows a 10-year-old archer to participate in Archery season? Equipment that is hand drawn, held, and releases an arrow, not a bolt belong in the archery season.
I’m sure you have seen the latest offering from PSE Archery, the TAC-15. Ar-15 stocked, with reported results of one-hole groups at 100 yards and 5” groups at 200 yards. Is that archery? It sounds like it should belong in the firearm season, where the current regulations place it.
I realize you are getting an earful from the Crossbow and ATA representatives. They are only driven by profit and money. They have no concerns for the quality of the hunting experience here in Michigan. My friends in Ohio have seen demise in the hunt quality in their state. Surely we don’t want to do it just because the Buckeyes are doing it!
My brother is physically handicapped. He hunts with a crossbow. He agrees that those unable to hunt with current archery equipment should only use crossbows in archery season if they are disabled.
Thank you for your time and consideration in this important matter.
Mike Gerard
129 Munn Street
Hesperia, Mi 49421
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Looks good Mike!
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Guys, it's not looking good. There are 4 or 5 of us bowhunters on the speaking agenda and 20+ crossbow pushers. They have brought their little kids to speak, they have brought representatives from trophy hunting clubs to speak, they have brought old people to speak, all to use for their cause. The big buck clubs are their because crossbows in archery season will lead to higher kills pre rut and the DNR will be forced to make antler restrictions, limit us to 1 buck, earn a buck, and other rules that the big buck killer clubs already are pushing for.
The NRC is supposed to make sound scientific decisions but many times it is no more than a popularity contest and which side brings the most players wins.
If you can't speak, then atttend with all of the bowhunting buddies you have to bring with you for support. If we don't get the support, one of the Commissioners already said that he believes there is enough support to push for a full inclusion of crossbows in zone 3 for a 3 year trial period. He can and will add this proposal at the March 5th meeting if he sees that the bowhunters are outnumbered. The first time Michigan allows an able bodied bowhunter to bowhunt with a crossbow, bowhunting history stops and crossbow hunting history begins. WE NEED YOUR HELP!!!!!! :readit:
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Jim, I just looked at the minutes for the meetings and it looks like they approved crossbows for all firearm seasons, 65 & over in Archery season, and the late bow season in December, Zone 3. Is this right? What was their attitude like? Did they give you a fair hearing? Doesn't look good.
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The meeting got over at 7:45 tonight and the results are: Crossbows for everyone in zone 3 and crossbows for 50 and over in the rest of the state from October 1st-November 15. The crossbow guys were giggling in the hallway talking about getting full inclusion soon because the decision made by the NRC sets them up for a discrimination suit.
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50 and over? I'm ashamed of any putz that grabs a crossbow with that. How was that based on scientific evidence? Thanks for your efforts. Sounds like the ATA and crossgunners bought another piece of legislation. Won't be long and our bowhunting will down in the crapper.
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The ATA had their propoganda there (yet if you go to the ATA home page they claim that they do not advocate for crossbows in archery season). Also representing crossbows were the NRA, SCI, QDMA, and others.
It was a real 3 ring circus. The line of reasoning that the NRC used as their scapegoat was "reccomendations from the MDNR stating that the resource would not be impacted.) They claimed that their decision was based on sound science.
I think they need a different science teacher if they can't tell the difference between a crossbow and real archery equipment.
I was glad to see that the bowhunters did have several representatives...P & Y Club, NABC, MTB, MBH, and several others. This was a done deal before the meeting even started. If you look at the ATA website there is a picture of the President of the ATA, along with Chuck Jordan "10pt Crossbows" and others with the MDNR Director. The ATA donated money for an archery range and named it after the directors late husband. "IT WAS FOR SURE A PRE-DETERMINED OUTCOME." :mad:
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No mention of the new technology TAC-15? How did they skirt that? The NRA and SCI from my point of view are elitist who spend their money to hunt anywhere, anytime, and damn the expenses or repercussions for anyone else. How did they change the age requirement? I'm going to be 55 this year and I would be embarrassed to feel I couldn't handle ARCHERY equipment at my age. How can the ATA donate an Archery range in Michigan when they seem to be in the business of destroying archery in Michigan?
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I must run for the nearest toilet cause I'm gonna puke!!! :mad: It's probably a good thing I can't speak freely on here.
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this is so totally sick.
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Originally posted by owlbait:
No mention of the new technology TAC-15? How did they skirt that? The NRA and SCI from my point of view are elitist who spend their money to hunt anywhere, anytime, and damn the expenses or repercussions for anyone else. How did they change the age requirement? I'm going to be 55 this year and I would be embarrassed to feel I couldn't handle ARCHERY equipment at my age. How can the ATA donate an Archery range in Michigan when they seem to be in the business of destroying archery in Michigan?
They were told about the TAC-15 and they really didn't care. The bottom line for them is not the weapon and whether or not it is legal archery equipment, the entire Commission agreed that they were held to sound scientific resource management and they were told by the DNR staff and the crossbow pushers that the crossbow added to archery season would not hurt the resource.
The NRA has seen my last dime and I will no longer be a member. Their Rep claimed that the NRA wishes full inclusion in archery season.
The SCI throws around a lot of money and claims to be a hunting organization but after doing some research on them I found out that they accept trophies into their record book from free ranging wild animals AND PENNED IN, FARM RAISED, CANNED HUNTED, NON WILD ANIMALS. They evidently wanted to cover all of their bases.
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Originally posted by Arwin:
I must run for the nearest toilet cause I'm gonna puke!!! :mad: It's probably a good thing I can't speak freely on here.
I second this comment. :(
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Jim
First thanks for your efforts-Like you I firmly believe it was done deal. I did write each NRC member-I'm afraid all I did was waste some stamps and paper. I'd wager that if 500 true archers were there it would not have mattered the FIX was in.
I hunt in Zone 3 and vow not to even speak to any jerk I see lugging one around. They can all go to you know where as far as I'm concerned.
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Originally posted by EDW:
I hunt in Zone 3 and vow not to even speak to any jerk I see lugging one around. They can all go to you know where as far as I'm concerned.
You are probably better off keeping your mouth shut. I know a couple "jerks" who happen to have crossbow permits due to injury or the toll of time. One, the result of his service to our Country. You certainly don't want to say anything to him. Bad shoulder or not he is far more of a man and hunter than most.