Trad Gang
Main Boards => Hunting Legislation & Policies => Topic started by: Horner on June 26, 2009, 09:18:00 PM
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When we get piled upon on another in large cities, as in Europe, we shall become corrupt as Europe.
Thomas Jefferson
The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those willing to work and give to those who would not.
Thomas Jefferson
It is incumbent on every generation to pay its own debts as it goes. A principal which if acted on would save one-half the wars of the world.
Thomas Jefferson
I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.
Thomas Jefferson
My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government.
Thomas Jefferson
The strongest reason for people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.
Thomas Jefferson
The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.
Thomas Jefferson
Thomas Jefferson said in 1802:
'I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around the banks will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered.'
I received this E-Mail from a fellow co-worker today. I hope the mods will understand why I posted this here, after they read it. I know it might not be within the rules, but I felt I had to possibly break them for this. I do apologize in advance.
Bryan Horner
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Here is another good one from Jefferson
"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear. "
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When you speak the truth there's no reason to apologize..If we would only have listen..
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I belive if he were alive today he would weep.
And so would alot of others along with him.
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There is no expiration date on the truth.
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My signature line:
Jefferson wasn't the only one who knew.
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Gooserbat "I belive if he were alive today he would weep."
Not at all sure of that; whether it be with fist or the might of word; our forefathers fought for what was right.
When they encountered indifference or found their beliefs and commitments to their souls endangered; they stood up and spoke and fought.
It is those that quake in fear; and cover their ears; and try to cover the mouths of others out of fear- that catered to the British in our war of Independence; and who still lurk here.
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Brian, I believe he could weep because of what has become of The Great Experiment he, and Adams, Franklin, Madison and the rest of our founding fathers begun. I believe also he would stand. Stand for the same pricipals and ideas he and the rest of of those great me who sighned That Great Document that was posted and read aloud that on July Fourth. He would see the threats from within for what they are, and stand with us who arn't afraid to stand up for right. Yes I agree "Whether it be with fist or the might of word" that our forefathers would stand with a resolve not seen by our generation, that we the people could boldly face the threats of today just the as they did in 1776. Only I fear todays threats are much worse than the Britsh.
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He simply looked at history around the world and saw our future in the histroy of others. Time is creeping and the death of our nation comes closer with every tick of the clock. We no longer as a body of people are willing to fight for what Jefferson believed in, nor keep the right path no matter the cost. When political correctness is more inmportant than the truth. Well lets just say the end nears and what will replace it no one knows!
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Can I weigh in on this?
I love to read posts like this-what troubles me is why there seem to be so many folks who are like minded in our thoughts, yet we ARE in the predicaments that we are today.
Is it because we are indifferent-with the "Ican't change the world" excuse?
Is it because we are afraid-afraid of going to court-being sued-being imprisoned........etc if we speak out?
Our rights were based on the views of great men a long time ago-now our rights are being re-hashed for us by those who want to control us again.
Will we sit by and allow it? One would like to think not, but we live in a "comfortable society" where no one wants to get dirty, and so many people are buying into the new thought train of "exchange your rights for safety".
How do we make folks see that though? It is becoming more and more taboo to speak out against the current administration.
Folks who believe they have a right to be armed, who are God-fearing, don't agree with the courts/school systems/federal-state-local governments are now openly referred to as potential "terrorists".
IF we are to do anything politically, without bloodshed, then the time is almost past. I fear that-based on history-there is little power left to the people, and that media and government are in complete control.
Makes me scared for my kids.
Good thread, and yes, Jefferson was brilliant. Visit Monticello sometime-the man was an impressive architect, outside of his ability to help construct a nation.
God bless ya'll
Farmer
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Actually I fear that many think standing up to the republican party is paramount to standing up to God.
There of course is a path to a third party- which would represent the people; but most have decided this is a country of republican against democrat; and damn the baby and the bath water.
People are afraid to stand up for what they believe in; they quake in fear of the unknown; and just hope that their faith will get them through.
Even Jesus overturned the tables of the money changers.........
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Originally posted by Brian Krebs:
Actually I fear that many think standing up to the republican party is paramount to standing up to God.
There of course is a path to a third party- which would represent the people; but most have decided this is a country of republican against democrat; and damn the baby and the bath water.
People are afraid to stand up for what they believe in; they quake in fear of the unknown; and just hope that their faith will get them through.
Even Jesus overturned the tables of the money changers.........
:clapper: :clapper:
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I can say I agree with nearly everything in this thread, and have many of the same fears/resentments/feelings/questions.
May I add gasoline to the flame?
Sir Alexander Fraser Tytler, or sometimes 'Tyler', (1742-1813) was a Scottish historian and jurist.
"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largess from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over a loose fiscal policy."
Gee...now what was this last election nearly ENTIRELY about? Oh yeah, "What will you do for my wallet?"
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Originally posted by Brian Krebs:
Actually I fear that many think standing up to the republican party is paramount to standing up to God.
There of course is a path to a third party- which would represent the people; but most have decided this is a country of republican against democrat; and damn the baby and the bath water.
People are afraid to stand up for what they believe in; they quake in fear of the unknown; and just hope that their faith will get them through.
Even Jesus overturned the tables of the money changers.........
There are many who think that standing up to the republican party is tantamount to standing up to God; there are others who think it's more little standing up to Satan.
In either case, Brian is right; until the time that enough of us are fed up enough to do one of two things, Jefferson's wisdom sounds too much like a funeral chant for comfort.
The two things that I believe would help are:
1. Push our state legislatures to enact open primaries. The reason we get the candidates we do, barring an accident, is that only about 60% of us vote in general elections where we choose between 2 people who are running because they successfully catered to the 20% lunatic fringe in each party who actually vote in the primaries. In an open primary the top two vote getters run for the office, no matter which party they're in, so there's at least a chance of getting reasonable people who could work together to accomplish something that might be beneficial. Instead while we occasionally get lucky and get some good people, we get way too many whose only concern is "catering to the base" so they can get reelected.
2. Start a third party and contribute heavily to candidates who will actually tell the truth. Most campaign speeches are fear mongering - either fear of the bad guys who are coming unless we give away our liberty for security, or fear of not having enough unless we elect people who promise to cut taxes, raise defense spending, raise Social Security and Medicare benefits and otherwise provide Merle Haggard's Rainbow Stew and Free Bubble Up - none of which passes Jefferson's test of reason.
Frankly, I don't think Jefferson would weep; I think he'd help start another revolution, peaceful if possible, but not if not.
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Originally posted by Soilarch:
I can say I agree with nearly everything in this thread, and have many of the same fears/resentments/feelings/questions.
May I add gasoline to the flame?
Sir Alexander Fraser Tytler, or sometimes 'Tyler', (1742-1813) was a Scottish historian and jurist.
"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largess from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over a loose fiscal policy."
Gee...now what was this last election nearly ENTIRELY about? Oh yeah, "What will you do for my wallet?"
This is the reason why the corporate controlled governments like the UK and USA want to spread democracy to the rest of the world. Democracy is government for the greedy, and the greedy fill the coffers of the corporations who control the media that control the minds of the weak that vote for the governments that the corporations want.
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Last I checked this was a Representative Republic, speaking of the U.S.A. that is. Little or nothing to do with a Democracy. However, enough people are viewing the country as a "Democracy" that it is actually being treated as such by both the government and the people.
Yes, the founding fathers would weep, then an old time trip to the wood shed would probably commence
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Ok we've all cried long enough. I my self am ready for that trip out back to the woodshed!
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Freefeet is absolutely correct. People are deluding themselves if they think either one of the two political parties here have the interests of the American people at heart. But what both excel at doing is keeping the American people at one anothers' throats over so-called "wedge issues" that the candidates then use to get themselves elected. Whereupon they then lie, cheat, and steal to their hearts content and serve their corporate masters. When the CEOs of major corporations are basically running our country, we have a government that has abdicated its responsibility of governance.
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When the Republicans had total power the Democrats 'appeared' to take the role of the defenders of the people, it got them into power. Now with the democrats in total control the republicans are assuming that role. It is the left right paradigm, oro ab chao, control through chaos. It is understandable that no one can trust anything at face value, it seems that there is an agenda behind everything. Always ask 'why', never let anyone else make your opinions for you, and never be afraid of the facts and truths you will find.
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What wone the hearts of the people of Minn. was when Jesse the Body answered a question by saying "I don't know." The simple truth is to the most extravagant lie as is a 30-06 to squirle hunting. The problem is 95% of elected oficials in DC have forgoten thet they work for us. Until we the voting public bands togather and fires ALL OF THEM they ain't gona listen. It's kinda like working for a boss that can't fire you or being in 3rd grade and the teacher not being able to give detentions, or paddle. Like I said before lets quit crying and takem to the woodshed.
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Read my signature:
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It seems our concerns should not be for the republican party; or the democratic party. This is not a football game; we should be concerned with out nation first.
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Originally posted by Brian Krebs:
It seems our concerns should not be for the republican party; or the democratic party. This is not a football game; we should be concerned with out nation first.
:clapper: :clapper:
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to war! to war! we make the cry to do this deed to fight and die.
the founding fathers knew there was death in their talk / men women children would die .young and old / torture,desease,famine, ruin.
when you speak of war know this is what you say!
the step to peace is not thru war!and the cloak of war we shroud ourselves which bears only death for all.
can we save this country without the fight ? can peace and freedom be had without the blood ?-- probably for a while but sooner or later war will happen again ! justified by men like jefferson and henry and franklin, lets hope its long time away.
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The whispers that preceed a war are the sounds of your government saying just let me spend 2 trillion dollars for you to make our economy work. Only problem. Guess who really has to pay that bill. You! Anyone here seen any of that money in your hand? Anyone seen the economy improve? Nope.
The have nots are working hard thru their selected party to take from the hard working haves. Eventually enough people get tired of it and say no. Then the goverment decides it can force you to say yes. each side pushes then pushes back and civil war commences. The second american civil war will most likely be a class war between the haves and have nots. Ugly and vicious, just like the last one.
You want to avoid war? Vote all the time, every time. Do what it takes to get others to vote. Make sure everyone you know votes. Get the people to take back control of their goverment.
Apathy is what kills nations. We the people will get to reap the rewards of complacency and will have to endure the fight that comes. Our country is divide already.
If history repeats itself, and it always does! Then the time to our civil war is very short, unless a lot of people pop their heads out and take control back from the government and give it back to the people.
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I'll try not to get started, but what keeps reviving this thread is the echo of greatness the founded this country. I think everyone who has posted on here has the same basic ideas with different thoughts of how to get there. Here are mine.
#1 PRAY FOR OUR COUNTRY AND IT'S LEADRES EVEN IF YOU DON"T AGREE WITH THEIR VIEWS.
#2 VOTE
#3 CALL OR WRITE YOUR SENATORS, AND ELECTED OFFICIALS.
#4 DON"T BR AFAID TO BE VOCAL OR RESPECTFULY ENGAGE IN DEBATE
#5 TEACH YOUR CHILDREN, GRANDCHILDREN, OR ANY YOUNG PERSON ABOUT THE GREATNESS OF OUR RICH HISTORY.
#6 SUPORT OR FIGHTING MEN AND WOMEN AS WELL AS THANK OUR VETERANS.
We the People are still in charge but or grip is slipping rappidly every day. The socialist wing in our government is fighting to not only control the government but also We the People. They would love nothing more than to tax us to the place where we must depend on them for every thing from health care to food and utilities. If you don't believe me them just sit by the way side and watch for the next FEW short years. If they can tell you when and how you are going to go to the doctor then they can tell you when and how you are going to live every aspect of your life.
I ask myself not get started so I'll shut up now.
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Originally posted by Gooserbat:
The socialist wing in our government is fighting to not only control the government but also We the People. They would love nothing more than to tax us to the place where we must depend on them for every thing from health care to food and utilities. If you don't believe me them just sit by the way side and watch for the next FEW short years. If they can tell you when and how you are going to go to the doctor then they can tell you when and how you are going to live every aspect of your life.
You should have said, "If you don't believe me just go an look at the UK!"
We've had 12 long years of the socialist scumbags....
:mad:
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Sorry, but if we can afford the Pentagon and Iraq, we can afford health care. I'm not afraid of a government giving me health care. I'm afraid of a government that sees killing people as the solution to every problem. I'd rather money be spent on fellow Americans, and not going into the pockets of the likes of Hamid Karzai.
Americans First. Period.
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The health care bill that is coming through is not health care. It is an insurance bill, with the very serious implications that could easily lead to things like forced inoculations and limited care for specific groups. Take a close look at the swine flu hype and all the negative facts about the vaccines.
An even larger threat is going on right now, that ties it all together, in Copenhagen, Denmark. While the news releases keep saying that no agreements are being met, google climategate, behind the scenes they are preparing to let the hammer down. The global warming scam is only the tool they are using to force global socialism and global kleptocracy and oligarchy. Are you all saving up to pay your carbon tax to the world bank? Or would you prefer that or politicians start working for us? they have not been for some time.
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You want to know the truth? I don't care anymore. Nobody represents the people anymore. Not the Republicans and not the Democrats. They can do what they want; makes no difference to me either way. I refuse to get involved with any political party. They're all liars and I've met more trustworthy scorpions hiding under rocks. Socialism is a scare tactic used by one side, and global warming is the scare tactic used by the other. All to keep the people busy fighting one another while the politicans of BOTH sides pick their pockets clean.
So, no, I refuse to care about it. I don't care if they pass health care or not. I don't care if they pass cap-and-trade or not. They can't take much more from me than they already have. I lost my job of ten years and no one hires a 43 year old guy when there are plenty of 20 year olds to choose from. They took money out of my pocket and gave it to greedy scum on Wall Street to allegedly "save jobs". Yeah, didn't work so well for me. I'm out the money AND the job. What else are they going to take from me? I can't stop it. They don't listen to the people anymore. I don't have any more money for them to steal, so they're probably done with me anyway.
If you think our politicians are ever going to work for us again, I'll sell you Midgely Bridge down in Sedona. They're are totally bought, totally co-opted. They play these games to make you think they're working for you so you'll vote for them. To what end? Next election, I'll be stumpshooting with my bow.
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http://www.americanprogress.org/cartoons/2009/12/img/121809.jpg
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Tsalagi don't go off the grid, just yet...
While I agree with you, somewhat...I for one, took an oath... to Protect and Defend the Constitution from ALL enemies Foreign AND Domestic!!...
meant it then and I mean it now!
The politician wants us to believe in their "holiness" , the whoremonger was us to believe in their freedom of "commerce"...put them together and you have a congress!!
What I'm doing to change this abomination (IT did not start with the Obamanation) is working with Tea Party People, the 10th Amendment Movement, and Friends of Article 5...you can look them up.
Personally, I bought 100 copies of the POCKET CONSTITUTION and am handing them out as I meet people who are trying to understand. The ones who scream this or that party...I let'm go on in ignorance.
It only took 1/3 of the Colonists to wrestle this land from the control of tyranny. It won't take many more than that now.
Make no mistake about it, I'm as fed up as any of you....but what will you DO about it?
We in the choir can read the hymnal and sing our notes but, what of those outside the choir box?
A third party is only a band aid. Unless we change the hearts and minds (person in the seat) of our local government and teach them about nullification and repeal, we will only slow down the process.
We the people still have the power, we just need to learn to use it again.
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Billy,
I served in the United States Army, 101st Airborne, so I also took that oath.
I appreciate what you're saying, Billy, and I commend you for it. I think a lot more than that needs to happen, and I think we can make it happen, too. We need people in this country to see the value of a working man and not whine when a working man wants a wage he can feed his family on. We need people to demand American made products and if that means it costs a little more, then pay it.
I'm an American. I'm the face of the "It's just business" excuse to give American jobs to communists in China. But what I will do right now to do my part is say this: Everyone, please, please, please, support your local American. If you're buying a bow, or whatever, if you can, please buy American. I say this to everyone I meet. Turning this country around starts with the day-to-day decisions we all make.
I'm trying to build a positive outlook on things, but it's tough. But I need to work harder to keep seeing the positives. There's a lot in my life to be thankful for. So, with that, I say I will work to see the positive and put the misfortunes behind me.
Air Assault,
Tsalagi
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The repulicans take from the middle class and give to the rich. The democrats take from the middle class and give to the poor. They both take and give to the rest of the world. Sad to say but we need another TJ and enough courage on our part to say enough is enough and give our support to going back to God and Country!
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Fellas I been gone for a couple of months (tree stand duties and a new job) and was suprised to see this thread had been revived but just read what I posted on the 2nd page. We gota stick to gather or we won't make it. We all care or we wouldn't post or read the thread but just stop and think about what would our founding fathers do. This isn't a call to arms but a call to action. don't be afraid to be heard. Billy is right it only took 1/3 of The People to give us our great country, and if The People are heard today howbeit only at first as a tinkling cimble then let it be that that tinkle resonaites into the great ringing of thousands of bells.
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7 years in uniform and a Marine for life!
Tsalagi and anyone else, trying is all that I ask. If, someone will but try, I'll help them all the way to the end.
"I know of no safe depositor of the ultimate powers of [a] society but the people themselves; and if we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their control with a wholesome discretion, the remedy is not to take it from them, but to inform their discretion by education. This is the true corrective of abuses of constitutional power" - Thomas Jefferson
It is a long and slippery path that we have been led down and we must begin where the founders began. In our own homes and local governments.
John Adams said, 'My country, Massachusets..' George Mason said, 'My country Virginia....' we must restart the experiment from the beginnings, I believe. Because the power, greed and corruption in that "ten miles squared" has rendered them incapable of reform.
From the outset there were those who wished to be led by a king, or wished to defer to foreign powers...but the true Staesmen believed in America - a Union of THESE united States.
Not a power from the Potomac, but a power at the Potomac; by the States, from the people.
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As I understand it those of us who are going around handing out The Pocket Constitution, of which i am currently out of, can be put on some kind of watch list. The same list that vets with guns are on. An honorable list to be on for sure.
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How would they know you're handing out copies of the Constitution?
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RON PAUL!!!RONPAUL!!!RON PAUL!!!...http://oathkeepers.org/oath/....
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This is an 8 hour class teaching on the constitution....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nOMbfsgZ9s
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Simple as to how big brother will know you hand out pocket constitutions. Those who fear the people institute spys everywhere dissenters go. Our latest presidend called for and is implimenting the whole citizen militia to watch for terrorists.
Just call them the spys within. Lots of them around, none of them looking for real problems, just watching you and looking to see if average americans can be turned in. Hitler did it, Stalin did it, Mao did it, Obama's doing it.
Sad thing is big brother now thinks being patriotic is dissent. They have forgotten that they serve us not the other way around. I plan to keep voting and working for change. Real world history tells either I or my children will be fighting in the second american revolution. Every civilation falls when it's people are apathetic. Were way past that.
The US Army taught me how to fight and blow things up. I own firearms and now am listed as a potential terrorist by my government. The worst thing I have gotten is a speeding ticket. Homeland security considers all veterns security risks now.
The NSA tracks every electronic signal that is produced in America, your phone calls are monitored, emails are monitored. There is no security system they haven't breached. Federal law requires that all American technology provides the security codes to the NSA. This emails will be checked by Cray Supercomputers for trigger words.
This is not conspiracy theory. Do your research, the government verifies that they do this in their own documentation.
I had a chat on the phone with a battle buddy about some missions after getting home from Iraq. Apparently we said the words explosives, blew that up, and roadside bombs one to many times. An FBI agent and I had a nice chat and now I am certain I am on several lists.
Nothing wrong or illegal with what we spoke about. We were serving out country while doing it, and the conversation was clearly about Iraq which was mentioned several times. Didn't matter, I still had a chat with the Fed and they were " very concerned " about by personal discussions.
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I'm a U.S. Army veteran. Sorry, but we're a long, long, long way from being a dictatorship. Know why? No money in it, LOL, and that's all our government is interested in!!! The only reason they "care" about terrorism is it disrupts business. But they won't control us or what we say---freedom of speech makes a LOT of money for people. And controlling people, why, how will they get to the mall and buy, buy, buy if they control them? Unless it's Britney Spears or some other celebrity, the average American isn't watching anyone else or interested in anyone else;-)
Have a nice evening.
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Tsalagi...I challenge you to read the constitution first...The gov has raped it...and feel free to watch he class I posted above its on youtube its 8 hours long about the constitution.
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_nOMbfsgZ9s
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Achilles,
You might do better first asking people if they've read the Constitution, which I have. It assists your argument to first ask people if they have, then if they have not, challenge them to read it. When I was in high school, the Constitution was taught as part of American History. I've read it many times since then.
The thing about a Constitution is that it only works when the politicians are held accountable to it all the time,including "your guy" and not just the "other guy" or the next administration that you didn't vote for. Now, the aforementioned terrorism laws were not passed by Obama; they were put in place at the behest of the Bush administration. Did anyone speak up at that time? Some did, and they were considered "unpatriotic". Remember the words of Pastor Neimoller: "First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a communist;
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—because I was not a trade unionist;
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Jew;
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak out."
The time to speak up was when the terrorism laws were being crafted. Obama merely uses laws already in place. But people didn't, because they never imagined the laws could be used against them. They thought it would be "the other guy", you know, Arabs and such. And when an American citizen was jailed without charges under these laws, no one spoke up. The words of Pastor Neimoller and never truer, are they? These are valuable lessons we can learn from.
You are correct; the government is no longer in the hands of the people. But this has been going on since the end of World War Two. We can't pin the blame on any one man or administration. Things are not that simple; they never are. Nothing happens in a vacuum. It first takes a population to allow it, for one thing.
I am glad to see you asking questions. Whether or not we totally agree on all things makes no difference. I, for one, stand up and cheer people such as yourself getting involved and taking a stand. I think we all want to see the best for our country.
Have a nice evening. :)
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Now, here are some quotes from Thomas Jefferson very relevant to today:
"Everything predicted by the enemies of banks, in the beginning, is now coming to pass. We are to be ruined now by the deluge of bank paper. It is cruel that such revolutions in private fortunes should be at the mercy of avaricious adventurers, who, instead of employing their capital, if any they have, in manufactures, commerce, and other useful pursuits, make it an instrument to burden all the interchanges of property with their swindling profits, profits which are the price of no useful industry of theirs." --Thomas Jefferson to Thomas Cooper, 1814. ME 14:61
"Certainly no nation ever before abandoned to the avarice and jugglings of private individuals to regulate according to their own interests, the quantum of circulating medium for the nation -- to inflate, by deluges of paper, the nominal prices of property, and then to buy up that property at 1s. in the pound, having first withdrawn the floating medium which might endanger a competition in purchase. Yet this is what has been done, and will be done, unless stayed by the protecting hand of the legislature. The evil has been produced by the error of their sanction of this ruinous machinery of banks; and justice, wisdom, duty, all require that they should interpose and arrest it before the schemes of plunder and spoilation desolate the country." --Thomas Jefferson to William C. Rives, 1819. ME 15:232
"The bank mania... is raising up a moneyed aristocracy in our country which has already set the government at defiance, and although forced at length to yield a little on this first essay of their strength, their principles are unyielded and unyielding. These have taken deep root in the hearts of that class from which our legislators are drawn, and the sop to Cerberus from fable has become history. Their principles lay hold of the good, their pelf of the bad, and thus those whom the Constitution had placed as guards to its portals, are sophisticated or suborned from their duties." --Thomas Jefferson to Josephus B. Stuart, 1817. ME 15:112
"The system of banking have... ever reprobated. I contemplate it as a blot left in all our Constitutions, which, if not covered, will end in their destruction, which is already hit by the gamblers in corruption, and is sweeping away in its progress the fortunes and morals of our citizens." --Thomas Jefferson to John Taylor, 1816. ME 15:18
"I sincerely believe... that banking establishments are more dangerous than standing armies, and that the principle of spending money to be paid by posterity under the name of funding is but swindling futurity on a large scale." --Thomas Jefferson to John Taylor, 1816. ME 15:23
Have a nice evening! :)
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Thomas Jefferson obviously understood the threat of the secret society that controlled the banks very well. It is a dumb ed down apathetic society that allows it to happen and it will take an awake informed society to reverse this. It is hard though, when every form of information is controlled by them. Look at all the deregulations that have happened over the last 30 years that have allowed this control. It truly is the modern age version of burning the books. Some in power have learned very well how to repeat history. We trad shooters are a peaceful bunch, it would be hard to consider us much of threat to anyone. However, knowledge is power or is it knowledge tells one when to duck.
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Tsalagi....Good now I don't have to preach to you...lol...So maybe were not heading to a dictatorship but something just as bad...We have got to wake people up somehow someway!!!
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Good god man they convinced everybody that we are over in Iraq trying to make it more stable,safe for democracy...wtf???...WE ARE NOT A DEMOCRACY..."And to the REPUBLIC for which it stands"...
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Achilles,
What I believe we're heading towards is a corporatocracy where Wall Street, in essence, owns and runs the country and government. That, basically, our elected officials are mere puppets controlled by them. So, basically, the people lose their voice and control over the government, because each representative we elect is already owned by banks and/or corporations. You will note that Thomas Jefferson very accurately predicted that in one of the quotes I gave which I'll quote again here and summarize:
"The bank mania... is raising up a moneyed aristocracy in our country which has already set the government at defiance...These have taken deep root in the hearts of that class from which our legislators are drawn...and thus those whom the Constitution had placed as guards to its portals, are sophisticated or suborned from their duties."
You are correct. We are not a democracy, but a representative republic. The Founding Fathers were students of Classical Greece and knew what happened with democracy in Ancient Athens. The thing is, we've lost control of our representatives. We have allowed a system to rise where it takes big money to run for office. Television is partly to blame for this, since TV ads cost big bucks. And political campaigns take on a life of their own in the media, looking more like a Busby Berkeley musical than a political campaign. The campaigns rely on Hollywood and the "Cult of the Celebrity" and this costs money. This is how the banks and corporations got a foot in the door to owning themselves a government.
It takes people to value a teacher over an actress. It takes people to value a firefighter over a sports star. And to show that value in what we do and how we act as a society. It takes people to value honesty and integrity over a nice hairdo and a flashy slogan. That's how people wake up.
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"It takes people to value a teacher over an actress. It takes people to value a firefighter over a sports star. And to show that value in what we do and how we act as a society. It takes people to value honesty and integrity over a nice hairdo and a flashy slogan. That's how people wake up."
Well said Tsalagi!!
Bill
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The Founding Fathers had a significantly simpler country in which to govern. The world is so much more complicated today.
That said, I think we could go back to the basics and study the actions of the Founding Fathers, simplify things, and rediscover our souls as Americans.
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I have to disagree that things were more simple then. They founding fathers decided to take on the worlds most powerful nation with no real money, no military to speak of and poor communications systems to run things. We have instand communication, a strong military, and we are the worlds greatest nation. Thing that matter for our success as a nation are far simpler now than then. The real challenge is getting the average american off their butt to vote and keep their politicians honest.
We are already a coporatocracy. Guess who got most of the funds from the stimulus packages? Sure wasn't you and me. Coporations got it and then got their bonuses and kept their jobs. As for blaming this or that party, you can just blame them all they are all bought by corporations.
As for the present administration, history is not going to be kind to a bunch of tax dodging, veteran hating, socialists who are driving us into the deepest debt this country has every seen.
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Ragnarok,
If you think we live in a corpratocracy now. Just wait. the previous administration's supreme court just overturned decades of political protections from corporations. now with unlimited corprate campaign contrabutions being legal, there will be nothing but The United Corporations of America.
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Here's how one begins the process to liberate one's own mind:
Turn Off The TV!
The people who control television are the corporations. They control what you see and what they want you to see---and, thus, believe.
And think about this. Guess who was the very first person who looked at television and said, "We need this! We can use this! Get this to the people right away---everyone must have one!"
Answer? Adolf Hitler. And the first major TV broadcasts were by the Third Reich.
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Also, read "Army of the Republic" by Stuart Archer Cohen. Best book you'll read and very relevant.
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The Founders Fathers were mostly highly educated and religious men. They learned lessons from history. That is why they chose to model our country after the Roman Republic and not the Greek Democracy. The Bill of Rights was to ensure that this system of government could be maintained; the power lies with the people. As for corporatism, etc., they are all forms of national socialism. There is no other form of socialism as a controlling force. Socialism is only true (or benign) socialism, and not fascism, if it is a system such as Social Security.
Communist countries by default are fascist countries, as true communism cannot exist without chaos. There is such thing as communism as the people can never be equal.
If the USA becomes socialist, we'll really be fascist (national socialist). So there you have it, you're either free, or you're not.
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The Federal reserve maybe the heart of the problem.
The federal reserve is a private bank that is unconstitutional.
Abraham lincoln tried to get out of it and he ends up shot.
JFK tries to get out of it and he ends up shot.
Hmmm what a coincidence.
People need to educate themselves on the private banks through out history,follow the money trail.
Who funded the wars?
Who benefits from war?
Andrew Jackson called the private banks a "Den of vipers and by the strength of God I'll route you out"...And he did for about 75 years but in 1913 the central bank came back and is now called the federal reserve.
Same year the IRS came in to existence and the same year that the 16th amendment was purportedly ratified-notice I said purportedly.
WHAT A coincidence!
Oct 1929 stockmarket crash was not an accident and was deliberatly caused.Now that alone didn't cause the great depression.What caused the great depression was that they took the money out of curculation.
So say we had 2400 dollars per person and by the next year there was only 15 dollars per person.
There was no money for employers to pay anyone with.
Now we have a national emergency and this is where Theodore Roosevelt(socialist) comes in and suspends gold standard.Makes it illegal to demand gold as payment and that you must accept worthless paper as payment and we have been in this national emergencey since....Hitler was doing the same thing.
The FED starts depression by taking money out and they fixed it by printing more money but its still worthless paper and the only real money thats worth anything is gold and silver and its the only constitutional money.
We borrow paper dollars from the fed and the IRS takes it from us and pays it back to the fed.
The federal reserve notes we use as money are worthless paper and basically they are only worth what the fed says they are.
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Ummm...Achilles, I agree with some of what you're saying. BUUUTTT... it wasn't Theodore Roosevelt that eliminated the gold standard. It was Frankiln Delano Roosevelt. And neither one of them were "socialists". Socialism, as an economic system, is where the workers own the means of production and run it to fulfil their own needs without profit. You can't be a "socialist" and a pro-bank plutocrat at the same time. It's just not possible. This country owes a lot to FDR and a lot of things people take for granted today were his doing. It's easy for people that didn't live back then to criticize FDR, but you'll find few working people who were adults at that time criticize him.
There's too much throwing about of the word "socialist" these days and I daresay the people doing so have never read Karl Marx and really have no understanding of the actual economic system of socialism and what it actually means. People are mixing up 'socialism" with the current corporate capitalist plutocracy (of which, yes, the Federal Reserve is a part). This makes their argument relatively easy to defeat when they do that.
But, answer me this: How does returning to gold and silver as the only true cash medium suddenly correct all the current problems? I ask this because Ancient Rome used gold and silver as currency and they were one of the most warlike civilizations that ever existed, in addition to having a totally corrupt Senate and Imperators with dictatorial powers (crowd-pleasers such as Tiberius and Caligula, for example) to execute whomever they liked. In fact, it was seen as a hallmark of ascending political power once someone (Marc Antony, for example) began minting their own coins from gold and/or silver. So, how does gold/silver coinage stop abuse of political power?
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LOL...Sorry I meant Frankiln Delano Roosevelt.
Yes he was a socialist an he enacted socialist ideas.Do a search with his name and "socialist" hell he admired Mussolini.
"but you'll find few working people who were adults at that time criticize him."
Well yea because they don't know the whole story they went from the depression to prosperity thinking he was a savior.
"How does returning to gold and silver as the only true cash medium suddenly correct all the current problems?"
"People are mixing up 'socialism" with the current corporate capitalist plutocracy (of which, yes, the Federal Reserve is a part)."
Thomas Jefferson-
I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around [the banks] will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs.
Thomas Jefferson, (Attributed)
This is exactly what is happening.
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Don't sit by and let your country be taken over by these Bazirkley CA libs. Get out go to events and make sure that Conservatives get in office to stop parasite mentality. Take action and motivate like minded people to vote these dependency scumbags out of office!!
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Achilles, were you an adult in 1933? No? Then I humbly suggest you're not in a position to judge those who were. You weren't there. But you might consider trotting down to your local library and reading some books about the Great Depression. You can also find books explaining exactly what socialism is (written by its founder---ten points if you can name that person) and what fascism is and why those two things are opposites. When I was a kid, we had a school program called Reading Is Fundamental. A great program. Reading, truly, IS fundamental. Especially in maintaining a free society governed by law and not demogoguery.
Your quote by Jefferson doesn't explain to me how the return to gold and silver currency solves all our problems. Please respond with how it does. I am still waiting.
Now, the quote by Jefferson you cite is actually making reference to corporate capitalism, not socialism. I maintain you're still mixing these things up. See, socialism as an economic system didn't exist when Jefferson was around. Ten points to you if you can tell me why.
Another thing. If FDR was a "socialist" (and, he wasn't), then he would not have "admired" Mussolini. I don't know what wacky website you pulled that off of. Mussolini was the founder of fascism. Another ten points to you if you can tell me from what object fascism derives its name. Fascism and socialism are direct opposites.
It is important to know the meaning of words. It is also important to know historical facts. So, you have some homework. I'll be awaiting the response on how gold and silver coinage saves us, among other things.
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I said he enacted socialist ideas...He did say he admired Mussolini.
I did not insult anyone who lived back then.
It will not solve ALL our problems to go back to gold and silver but it is unconstitutional to do otherwise.One way it will help is that the fed won't be able to inflate or deflate the value of a Dollar the way they did in 1929 when they crashed the stockmarket.
I'm not going to get into a debate about Franklin D. Roosevelt being socialist or not.
If you do some searches you can find the info.
Maybe in your opinion he wasn't socialist.
Here is the constitution class and he talks about all of this and FDR videos 37 38 and 39.38 is particularly funny.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvQg6DGNm5A&feature=related
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"corporate capitalism"....."the banks and CORPORATIONS that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered."
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Well, unfortunately, a You Tube video isn't in the same league as a well-researched book that has footnotes, sources, and a bibliography. Kind of like the difference between a bag of potato chips and filet mignon, with You Tube being the bag of potato chips. Again, reading is fundamental. Especially for the health of a free nation of laws.
But, I am intrigued. Tell me how the federal government cannot inflate the price of gold coins, but can do so with paper money? You are aware that gold prices can be manipulated as sure as prices paid for grain, yes? Further to that, in many cases, gold is subject to fluctuating prices due to supply and demand. Gold value is not a constant. So, tell me how gold as money is a solution? And to what specific problems? I'm interested.
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a You Tube video isn't in the same league as a well-researched book that has footnotes, sources, and a bibliography.
Facts and Data need not apply. :knothead:
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Please look it up yourself don't take my word for it.That man in the video has studied this for 18 years."George washington payed the same amount for a loaf of bread as Abraham lincoln did"
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"a You Tube video isn't in the same league as a well-researched book that has footnotes, sources, and a bibliography."...Youtube is not a book but its VERY informative you can learn just about anything on it.I would trust youtube or any alternative media before I would trust fox or cnn.
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Achilles, I don't listen to much that the American media says. I check out some books from the library and find out things for myself.
Precious metal currency is a non-solution to our current problems. Our current problems are not caused by the way wealth is measured or determined or what represents it (gold, silver, etc.) The problems is too much wealth in the hands of too few who then do not spend it but, rather, use it to achieve non-democratic and tyrannical political power. We live as subjects to neo Nero and Caligula, but because they're corporations, no one sees it as tyranny. If the government insisted on doing things to people that companies do routinely as policy, people would be crying bloody murder. But no one wants to admit that.
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Fascism and Socialism are not opposites. They are both similar. The only difference, as said by Adolf Hitler, is that Fascism includes a racial component. Hitler said that Fascism, without racism, would give Communism a run for it's money in claiming the socialist crown. If that's not enough for you, Nazis were the National Socialist Party. They attacked big business and unions as much as the Communists. Personal freedom only exists in Republics or Democracies.
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Not exactly, Frank.
Fascism itself does not include a racist element per se. Fascism was basically invented by Benito Mussolini, who named it after the Fasces. The Fasces was an ax tied into a bundle of rods, carried by two Lictors, in front of high Roman officials as a sign of Roman power and authority during the period of Ancient Rome. Italy refused to hand over its Jewish population to Germany. It was after Mussolini's death that the Germans came in and sent the Jewish Italians they could grab to conentration camps. Fascism is a nationalist authoritarian form of government that is founded upon corporatism in league with government.
National Socialism is basically the idea of Fascism which Hitler stole from Mussolini and then added his own warped perspectives on Jews, Gypsies, Slavs, and homosexuals. Hitler (like Mussolini) did not attack Big Business at all. On the contrary, big corporations such as IG Farben, Krupp, and several others got rich. In fact, that is why several large German corporations had to pay reparations to Holocaust survivors after the war. And to this day, paper trails that lead to big German corporations are still being followed to make them pay reparations.
There is nothing in Fascism or National Socialism that says the workers should own the means of production and produce goods for their own needs without profits. That is what pure socialism is. There is state socialism where the state, representing workers, owns the means of production. That isn't Fascism or National Socialism at all. In Fascism and National Socialism, capitalism survives, in fact, corporations prosper greatly under those systems since both quash unions.
Have a look at a WW2 K-98 Mauser. You'll see marks from Mauser or Sauer or a couple other private corporations that made that weapon. Messerschmitt made their planes, Krupp made artillery, IG Farben made Zyklon B, Daimler Benz made Hitler's staff cars, Walther made their pistols, and on and on. You know Oskar Schindler? Schindler's List? Yes, he was a private industrialist playing like he wanted to use Jewish slave labor for his factory. He was able to do that because lots of German corporations were doing that, and that's why they had to pay reparations after the war.
So, no, they're not the same things at all.
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The Communists and Fascists in pre-1933 Germany, usually backed each other up in voting, because the goals were usually socialist in general and served both parties at that time. And they recognized each other as "socialist parties".
And no, Nazism wasn't corporatism in league with government. They were allowed to exist only if they did the government's bidding. There was no partnership. A partnership would allude to freedom on the part of capitalists. It didn't exist. Schindler would have been executed if he had said "no" to the Nazis. And another would have taken his place. A corrupt quasi-capitalism, is not capitalism by definition. It's more akin to mideavel serfdom. When the Fascists took control, capitalism ended with the Republic.
This is the same thing Communists do. The leadership in Soviet Russia lived "wealthy" lives compared to the rest. If you were a party member, the higher you moved, you got more. In function, Fascism and Communism are mostly the same. And a socialist government cannot exist without the control of the people's rights. Socialism requires control. It cannot exist without it. Social Security as an institution cannot exist unless they "force us" to participate. Socialism without control is chaos. It cannot exist. Therefore, socialism is anti-freedom. And it is more inline in political theory to fascism and communism than capitalism.
For capitalism, it does better under a republic than a democracy. Too much democracy makes for majority control, which again, moves to the left of the political spectrum to socialism. Which means more control of individuality and individual achievement.
Therefore, a republic is the best form of modern government, tempered with democratic processes, and maybe a bit of socialism. But, just a bit. Kinda like the Founding Fathers described.
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Wrong. Again, you are mixing up Fascists and Nazis. Again, the Fascists were in Italy under Mussolini, the Nazis were in Germany under Hitler.
So, all socialism is bad, huh? So, despite the fact that most Scandinavian countries have a higher standard of living than the U.S. (having some socialist policies in their social welfare programs), it's bad. Sure.
Now, quid pro quo. Soviet communism and socialism are not the same things. You need to go back and read your Karl Marx, Frank.
Capitalism is about freedom, huh? Guess that's why employers have policies stating they have the right to search your car and your person, for any reason. Guess that's why companies can forbid you from having ANY weapon in your car (including a knife of any type)if parked in their lot. Guess that's why it's perfectly legal for an employer to fire you for having a political candidate's bumper sticker on your car. Guess that's why employers do credit checks on prospective employees--even to sling coffee at minimum wage. Guess that's why it's perfectly legal for an employer to fire you for writing a letter to the editor on a wholly non-work issue. Guess that's why corporations retaliate against people using their First Amendment rights by hitting them with a Strategic Lawsuit Against Public Participation. Tell me more about control of individuality. Because I'm not buying that at all.
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Fascists, Nazis, Communists. All socialist. Scandinavia, third way, between communism and capitalism. Higher standard of living per capita, less individual freedom. Nice people too. Selling weapons to the West and the East at the same time. Marx was a socialist. And I've read Marx, Freire, and a bunch of other nutjobs. I didn't say capitalism was about freedom, I said you can't be capitalist unless you are free. Corporations having policies to control their employees is because gutless courts will not rule on the side of the individual. This is "corporate socialism", not republicanism.
All control is anti-freedom. Freedom cannot exist in a socialist context. By definition, socialism is "the needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few". Or do you disagree with that? And if so? Tell me how people are more free under socialism? No where are people more free than the USA. You can say others have a better standard of living, or are safer, or whatever. But, no one is more free.
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Look dude, this is gonna get old. You can read this if you want. Up to you. Feel free to disagree with it if you want. It's not perfect, but the gist is there.
http://jonjayray.tripod.com/hitler.html
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Its OK you guys; its just winter. There are spring bear and turkey hunts real soon. You will be OK; honest. :archer:
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This forum is "Hunting Legislation & Policies"....not "political ideals debate."
Moving on....