Trad Gang
Main Boards => Hunting Legislation & Policies => Topic started by: Al Dente on May 15, 2010, 03:03:00 PM
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There are cureently three Bills within the Environmental Conservation Committee that pertain to crossbow usage.
A924A/S6793 would give the DEC the authority to set the standard for the crossbow, and place it where they feel
A740/S2943 would allow disabled to hunt with a crossbow provided they submit their status (a doctor's note). Just like what happened in PA!! There are options, such as the Draw-Loc, which can be mounted legally with the Modified Archers Permit from the DEC. The DEC does not promote the options, and they do not even have one to show!!!
A7100A/S2204A would create a Jr. Small/Big Game license and allow for crossbow use. Youth can already hunt with a firearm or bow at age 14, so creating this license is redundant and is only there to sneak in the crossbow.
Contact the member os the Senate and Assembly Environmental Conservation Committee to oppose these Bills.
Visit the NYB webpage for details and contact information.
www.newyorkbowhunters.com (http://www.newyorkbowhunters.com)
Protect and preserve the Archery Season. It should be for hand held, hand drawn bows.
All the best, Al Bottari
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I don't understand why someone needs to be disabled to enjoy the outdoors. I don't want to be forced into hunting the way others want me too, and i don't want to force others to hunt the way I do. Live and let live.
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Doesn't sound like a threat, sounds like additional hunting opportunity.
I would think that only anti-hunting organizations would see increased hunting opportunity as a threat.
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I do not think that I am an anti-hunter because I do not want a superior implement included into the archery season. All that the DEC wants, is to place the crossbow into the archery season to gain the firearms hunters who will hunt with a crossbow. No matter what avenue it takes, it all leads to the archery season, money to the DEC, and money to the crossbow manufacturers.
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Amen Al-It's all about state revenue & taxes . It's not a bow....
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Thanks Al for the heads up.I'm a bowhunting safety instuctor and I forwarded this to a bunch of my fellow instructors.Also to my local NYFAB rep.I'll get some letters out!!
Mitch
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We've had the "disabled" crossbow permits in CT for a number of years during the regular archery season. We've also just opend up our January archery season to crossbows. The only guys I know who use them are unable to draw a bow.
Hunter numbers are down, yup, bowhunter numbers too. Instead of trying to demonize the crossbow your efforts would be better placed in outreach and bow education programs. Get more people shooting.
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If someone feels he or she wants to hunt with a crossbow that's great. There should be a season that makes that happen,just not during the archery season. It is not archery equipment. Bows do not have stocks, built in triggers and scopes.
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The horse left the barn years ago with what the modern compound has become.
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I got this link in the Email today. Seems the camel's nose is firmly under the tent. I'm not the least bit surprised given NY's fiscal emergency and the siren's call of even more license revenues.
http://www.wivb.com/dpp/news/politics/NYS-Senate-passes-crossbow-hunting-bill
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Yeah Brent, but from everything I can gather and read, it is only during existing gun seasons.
"The legislation approved today specifies that crossbows shall be authorized for any big game season when the shotgun or muzzle loader is permitted."
Although Im neither for or against it, I am happy to read that bow season will not be chaotic.
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Just my .02 and please don't take offense, but think about the concept. I think the long term reality is that all states will legalize xbows in the next decade. It's just the future, like it or not.
But to counter that, a strategy for all states "bowhunter groups" may be to lobby for additional "traditional only dates". And not just trad bows, but join ranks with traditional muzzleloader groups too. Strength in numbers, since we don't have the numbers.
I realize NY tried this once and failed, but try again. And all states bowhunter groups should consider this option.
Perhaps a week prior to established archery seasons for a "trad bow/ML season" is the best alternative, given the almost certain outlook of xbows for all, everywhere, eventually. I say prior to established seasons vs after, since the weather is nicer and more youths and others with some casual interest may get involved.
Also in my opinion, the big future growth in trad archery is going to come from existing compound hunters bored with the compound, not from the youths of existing trad shooters. A special season just for trad bows may make many finally make the leap. Just look at the numbers. It's probably at least 10:1 existing compound shooters, if not more. But many of the best are truely bored with what the compound offers. A special "trad season" may nudge many to finally do what they've wanted to do for a long time.
To me, the reality of simply trying to stop xbows from regular seasons is a long term exercise in futility. We can't bargain for something once our chips are lost.
If xbows are to be in pretty much all states established archery seasons, perhaps looking for something in return for the inevitable is the best option before those xbows become legal anyway?
States may be far more willing to give us a trad week prior to existing seasons.
My opinion is, sadly, we can fight that fight just trying to stop xbows, but we're going to lose everytime in the long run. Get something while the gettin's good.
Just my thoughts.
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I'd love to see a recurve/lb, flintlock/prb only early season. Impact on the herd would be minimal at best. I would buy an extra tag.
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The crossbow is legal to use in only 14 states during archery season, not 49 as you are led to believe by those with a poisoned pen. The Bills that passed allow the crossbow to be used during Regular Firearms Season to hunt deer and bear, and the late MZ Season. It also relaxes the restirctions to obtain a Modifed Archers Permit, this allows the use of adaptive equipment on your own bow.
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It does make it easier for use of the drawloc - which advertises itself as a vertical crossbow. And most major compound manufacturers void their warrenty if it is added. Still need to be disabled to the point of using a breath tube activation for a crossbow permit.
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Like it or not, xbows will eventually be coming to most every state just as surely as Social Security will become insolvent.
The point of "a xbow isn't a bow" isn't the point with state game agencies. The hunter demographics and deer densities/disease threat are what is driving xbows into more seasons. And hunter demographics and deer densities/disease threat numbers aren't good for keeping commonly accepted "regular" archery seasons "pure".
The bogeyman that shadowy insurance executives or shadowy xbow manufactures are setting policy in some smokefilled back room are a fantasy and hurtful to finding real life solutions. It's a sidetrack from some hunters that take us away from the reality, not towards how we deal with the future.
Deer hunter numbers are declining, with no increase envisioned. In fact, steeper declines are expected. Hunter average age is getting older and older, with the outlook of fewer and fewer young hunter replacement. Over 50% of deer hunters are age 41 or older. More and more people live in urban area's and more people are fragmenting woodlots with sub-rural sprawl. Both result in less hunting overall.
For example, a very hunter oriented state like Michigan has lost 22% of our deer hunters since 1998. Nationally, we lost over over 1,000,000 deer hunters since the 1990's.
The average work week has gone from roughly 40 hrs in the late 1960's-early 70's to roughly 50 hrs a week today.
Polls show that recreation requiring physical activity has declined in popularity. Reading was the #1 activity at 35% and watching TV was 2nd favorite at 21%.
Worse yet, more and more of todays youth consider texting their favorite activity. So much so, many kids don't even apply for drivers licenses when they turn 16. Why drive when the internet provides you with contact with all your friends? When I was a kid, everyone couldn't wait for the day they got their drivers license when they turned 16.
Couple that with deer management issues. Growing herds and now disease threat. As CWD creeps, look for states to do whatever possible to kill more deer. States that produce livestock will not tolerate large deer herds kept large to satisfy recreational deer hunters.
A big reason Michigan wanted to allow more xbows was because the office that dealt with handicap permit applications was getting overrun. As the babyboomers age, they were projecting that 30% of the bowhunters could be applying for a permit in future years. At that point, why not legalize them was part of the thinking.
In Michigan's first year with the xbow, we didn't lose bowhunting license sales as we have over the last decade, but instead we gained 20,000 in archery hunters. If you don't think other state game agencies losing hunters don't sit up at that news, one is inserting his ears into the sand, below sea level.
But with all this said, I'm not pro-xbow for all. However, I am a realist and pragmatist. And by being a realist, I say we bowhunters need to think about real ways to get something additional for us, instead of possibly losing it all.
Don't forget, if you don't like xbows, state game agencies could someday abolish separate archery seasons and may have all weapons "deer season". So instead of your neighbor using a xbow in October, in 10-15 years he may be sitting with his .300 Weatherby.
The poison pen comes in the form of those giving advice that we somehow win by using the old strategies that have usually been losers. Like with WWI trench warfare, after the first 3 waves of men all get mowed down before getting 10' of from the top of the wall on a charge, it's time to think of another plan instead of sending out yet another wave.
Not that "just say no" isn't noble, it is. But that strategy will result in many states having a degraded "regular" archery season and trad bowhunters will have gained nothing and have only lost.
Think in terms of the huge gains in muzzleloader season popularity. But in order to do so, one must recall that the first major production inline ML, the MK-85, only came about because states began creating special ML seasons and the number of hunters grew enough to support such a product. If states had never created special ML seasons, there'd be no production inlines and the number of hunters using flintlocks and hammer percussion rifles in regular firearms season would be a small fraction of those using trad bows in regular archery seasons.
It was special muzzleloader seasons that spurred that growth. If ML's can have special season dates, then why not trad bows?
Plain and simple, if one wants to increase participation in deer hunters using trad bows, then advocating for season "trad only" season dates is the best way to do that.
Now, I'm not so sure a lot of current trad bowhunters want a big new crop of bowhunters using trad gear. I think some are happy with the group they're used to. Obviously, I'm sure my suggestions anger some here.
I speak from proven results. I owned a successful fly fishing store in northern Michigan for over a decade. Using such counter-intuitive idea's brought us to be the 2nd biggest St. Croix rod dealer in the Midwest. Conventional thinking often gets only conventional results.
If you want to see trad bow participation jump in a state like Michigan, offer a 2 week long trad bow season in early September. Open it to any deer. (I'd also suggest allowing traditional sidelock muzzleloaders with patch and ball for antlerless deer only).
The result would be that many compound guys that always had interest in trad bows would buy one. But the bigger result would be, many would enjoy using trad bows so much in that special trad season, that they'd end up continuing to use trad bows once regular season came around.
Don't forget, today deer hunters hunt for fun and recreation. Trad bows are more fun. Most use compounds now because it's just what you do. Using a longbow never even dawns on the majority.
Sure trad bows require practice and many will gravitate back to the compound, but many others won't.
If we keep with conventional strategies, in 20 years, we'll end up with far less deer hunters and far more of those left using xbows.
Below is a good read and should worry everyone...
Expert: Decline in hunting numbers real concern
Hunters have been the backbone of the conservation movement in the United States.
But hunting numbers are on the decline.
Robert Holsman, associate professor of wildlife at UW-Stevens Point, says that while the decline is a unquestionably a concern to hunters, to some, the relevant question is: "So what?"
"We all ought to be concerned about it because hunters have carried the mantle of conservation in this country," Holsman said. "It isn't just that they are representing their self-interests, but hunting promotes conservation and an environmental concern. We need to do things that maintain that link."
It is easy for skeptics to view the concern as self-serving, since a variety of entities -- state and federal government agencies, foundations and manufacturers, for instance - benefit financially from such an arrangement.
"But, the bottom line is that it is about maintaining that important link to stewardship," Holsman said.
Make no mistake, hunters have funded the nation's conservation programs. License money and special stamps fund wildlife management, law enforcement and research programs, and help buy wetlands and adjacent nesting habitat used by all types of wildlife.
The federal excise taxes on sporting arms and ammunition fund state wildlife management and research programs.
Hunters such as such as Teddy Roosevelt, J.N. "Ding" Darling, and Aldo Leopold have been stalwarts of the conservation movement.
Yet, hunter numbers are declining.
"If this decline would be a wildlife species, we'd be asking the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service to put it on the Endangered Species list," Holsman said recently.
U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service reports show there were 19.1 million hunters in 1975. That number declined to 12.5 million in 2006 and by 2025 the number is projected to be 9.1 million.
Nationally the participation rate in hunting is about 1 out of every 20 people. The largest declines by state include Rhode Island (59 percent), California (38 percent) and Iowa (26 percent), the report said.
From 2001 to 2006, the number of small game hunters is down 12 percent in the U.S. and migratory bird hunters are down 22 percent. This is relevant because small game hunting is often the avenue of introduction for many lifelong hunters.
In Wisconsin, according to hunting license sales, about 92 percent of hunters pursue deer, 32 percent stalk small game, 22 percent await wild turkey and 11 percent eye migratory birds. Wisconsin ranked fifth in the sale of hunting licenses in 2005 (with 713,610 licenses sold) behind Texas and Pennsylvania (1 million each) and Michigan (789,244).
Holsman said explanations for the decline in license sales normally include increasing urbanization, demographic changes (people getting older), barriers (especially access to private land) and competition from other forms of entertainment/recreation.
The sleeping giant here is competition. People say they just don't have the time -- heck, they don't have any less time than they ever did, but people just choose to utilize it differently these days.
Holsman hopes it's just a lack of awareness and opportunity.
"We must be more inclusive. It is the right thing to do and we must make hunting more relevant to more people," he said.
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This is my take on it & it may make some of you unhappy. So be it. I love hunting & hope to continue until my last days. I was a wheelie hunter & changed to trad in 2007 because I wanted the extra challange. Fell in love with it and can't even think of bow hunting with anything else. In Dec. 08 had major shoulder surgery but back to shooting trad because I love it so much. I have had to lower draw weight to mid 50s though to save pain in the shoulder. Well, to all of you that are against the cross bow I say you are not anti-hunting but are selfish in ways. If I could not pull my bow back and hunted in PA with a xbow (legal in archery season) would I have been any less of a trad archer than you? No, but I would have still been able to get out there and enjoy myself. I am 43 and who knows when that injury will stop me from the love of trad bows, but when it does I don't want you telling me I am not worthy of enjoying bow season because I need more help from the equipment. Who cares as long as hunters are out there? I say the more choices the more hunters the better. If crossbows get more people out than have at it. I also realize that the deer are not my deer & if someone shoots it with more advanced gear than it was my choice to limit myself.
A trad only season would definitely be wlecomed but we don't have one now.
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Better take the threats seriously. Just read on the NC wildlife resources web site today that as of Aug. 1st 2010 crossbows are legal weapons anytime a regular bow is legal. We also lost a week of our archery season to the muzzleloader season. In my opinion crossbows are only a means for gun hunters to hunt the archery season. What hangs me up about the whole deal is in NC you must have a handgun permit to purchase a crossbow. Something is just not right about that picture. I don't have a problem with someone with a legitimate handicap using a crossbow but other than that I have no use for a crosbow. JMO
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crotch horn : I am sorry; but hunting with a crossbow is not bowhunting. Its just NOT the same thing.
I have had a broken shoulder; and taped my longbow to my foot; and sat in a chair and shot a buck with one arm.
Its about the flight of the arrow; not the blur of the bolt.
I am wondering about the recent supreme court ruling and how that effects carrying arms in any season. When I am riding my horse on elk hunts; or packing in camp or out meat - I carry a handgun... to shoot my livestock if there is a wreck resulting in one of them breaking a leg.
That is legal in Idaho.
But what does the new interpretation about the second amendment mean to states that say you cannot carry a pistol or gun in bow season; or a crossbow in archery season? It may be illegal to use one- but to have one in possession ?
I see nothing on my license to hunt that states I am voluntarily or otherwise: giving up my right to keep and bear arms during a hunting season.
And I have question about the right now of any state to do so....
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State of Arizona forbids having a firearm on your person while bowhunting during a bowhunting season. But they don't care about having a Cold Steel Trailmaster!
:goldtooth:
If you can't have a handgun, a Trailmaster is the next best thing.
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Brian,
I never said I believe hunting with a crossbow is bow hunting. As a matter of fact I don't consider them bows at all. I do think the handicapped hunters out there should have the option. I commend you on your taking an animal with your injury but others can not. My point is...lets get everyone together no matter the weapon. A hunter is a hunter & we need to stand united.
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Crotch Horn
I have seen a girl with no arms shoot a bow efficiently; and a boy with one arm shoot a bow also- its all about what your trying to achieve- take Tred Barta's example.
And very respectfully - no a hunter is not a hunter; and it will do us harm to have hunters stand united on some issues
Take for instance 'proficiency testing'. Compound and crossbow people can shoot small groups with virtually no practice at 50 yards.
I have been in rabid debates about proficiency testing where the compound people ( as they are the majority in a vote by 'bowhunters') want distances set at ranges that are not reasonable to the vast majority of trad bow shooters- and well beyond our expected and desired shot ranges.
That is where standing together is a problem; where the rifle hunter-grab a bow and go hunting in bowhunting season hunters start making the rules about who can bowhunt and what the rules should be.
We trad hunters could ~all~ vote 'no' on something integral to our traditional bowhunting and be defeated by a 10% 'yes' vote by crossbow and compound bow shooters.
They like long shots- and the now promoter of his 'own' bow - Jim Shockey - states he really likes being able to shoot as well as the 'real experts' at long ranges. ( He mentioned Chuck Adams as one such expert).
I really like Shockey - but he is NOT promoting what traditional bowhunters do. Now he practices it sometimes when hunting with whatever weapon- getting in close- but we are seeing more and more shots at 50 yards and further as proof of hunting prowess with a bow.
Yes - I believe if all hunters can agree on something valuable to our existence - it can count.
But we are a minority - and we used to be able to keep crossbows out the archery season. But now- well look what's happening.
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A hunter IS a hunter. That doesn't mean they agree with everything you do but who says you are right & they are wrong. Welcome to NY where the numbers will always be against those of us that live upstate or believe in gun ownership. I used to hunt with a compound and it is not as easy to shoot bullseyes consistantly at 40-50 as you make it sound. Much easier than trad but not simple to be that good. I think the debate is more about the ethics of it all. We love the challenge while others may care more about the success. I mean no disrespect to anyone here but to me the more people out there with high hunting ethics the better. That does not include any of the "slob hunters" out there no matter the weapon. I think we all have run into those folks. I hunt with a rifle, shotgun, pistol, muzzle loader, & longbow. I enjoy the longbow the most by far but I will tell you I find it easier for me than my pistols. I also practice as much as possible with every weapon. The first thing my father taught me was you don't take a shot unless you know you can make a killing shot. That doesn't mean you will never miss because we are human. This is getting way to long and drifting way off topic so let me just say. I will not judge a hunter by the weapon they choose. I judge that hunter by how they respect the outdoors and those in it. Have a nice day to all.
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"This is getting way to long and drifting way off topic so let me just say. I will not judge a hunter by the weapon they choose. I judge that hunter by how they respect the outdoors and those in it."
Well said.
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Crotch Horn said:
"If I could not pull my bow back and hunted in PA with a xbow (legal in archery season) would I have been any less of a trad archer than you?"
The answer is yes. Traditional archery is a recurve or longbow. But there is a way I would say crossbows could kinda-sorta be called traditional. Make them to Medieval specs---no sights, no compounds. Like these:
http://www.crossbows.net/
When I see crossbow hunters shooting those, I'll gladly state they're shooting a traditional crossbow.
I don't judge hunters by the weapons they choose, provided they hold to the spirit of a season and don't try getting the camel's nose under the tent. Crossbows in archery season and saying they're "bows" is like saying we should allow a 25mm Chain Gun into firearms season because it's a "gun".
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No, I don't think crossbows are bows again for the record. I meant am I less of a trad hunter in spirit not reality. I say no to less in spirit but yes to weapon. Hopefully none of us ever have to be in that position. My point ( and getting back on topic) is I don't consider it a threat to me personally. I respect you if you do. I am sorry if I offended anyone in any way.
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Crotch Horn - the people that 'offend me' most: are those that don't make statements; and open themselves to debate.
Your certainly not to be looked down upon by me or anyone else for what you are saying.
You have every right to say what you believe; and we have no right to do anything other than make our swords sharper in the process of making yours sharper.
I just saw a really nice guy on TV shoot a bison with a rifle. He made a responsible shot and killed the bison.
Now that was not the last bison. But what if it was; and it had to be killed. What would be the way to do it?
In my mind; shooting it with a gun would be a great insult. It might be a fitting end- in the sense that gunfire took massive numbers of bison to almost extinction ( yes I am aware of the politics etc involved).
But if you had to choose the way it should die- which would be the way it would be done?
Personally; I would think either stalking the bison with a Native American/traditional bow would be appropriate; or riding bareback on a horse and shooting it with the same bow.
Hopefully the day will never come when the last bison exists.
But with out a doubt- the last animal ~I~ will take hunting will come- and may have already.
So - look at it from that perspective.
I am shooting a longbow; I make my arrows; and sharpen the heads; and practice - and if I can make another kill - I will not look back at it and regret it in anyway.
My last bow kill was a whitetail doe at less than 20 yards; hit it through the heart and lungs. If the fickle finger of fate takes me- I will not have to look back and wish I hadn't tried using a crossbow to see what it was like; or a gun.
I may not be the last bison; but I am the last me.
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The poisoned pen I refer to is from outdoor writers who have gotten free hunts, free gear, and free God knows what else from manufacturers to promote their products. They have a weekly forum to push the crossbow agenda. They do not state facts, they play on people's emotions. They try to envoke images of elderly, young, female, or disabled persons who long to hunt with a crossbow, but are denied their hunt because bowhunters do not want the superior implement to be used during the archery seasons.
It is the bowhunters who fought long and hard to gain respect and be able to bowhunt. It is the bowhunters who spend countless hours practicing to ensure a quick, clean killing shot, at an average of 12 yards. To place a machine, such as the PSE TAC 15, which the manufacturer boasts can shoot 1" groups at 100 yards is against everything that dedicated bowhunter has worked so hard for.
Only 14 states allow the crossbow to be used during any archery season. They like to mislead the public by saying that the crossbow is legal in 48 states. By the way, they should have always said 49, since the crossbow was legal to use in NY, by means of the Modified Crossbow Permit, through the DEC. Now, it will be legal during the Regular Season, and the late MZ season. But, this is not enough. Already the crossbow folks are calling this "watered down", and not what they wanted. It is what I have always said, they want the archery season, and they will not stop until they acheive their goal. Now, maybe the legislators will see them for what they truly are, shameless snakeoil salesmen. They exploit, they lie, they mislead, but the bowhunters are wrong. We are called anti-hunters, elitists, selfish, and likened to animal rights terrorists.
I will do everything that I can to ensure that archery seasons are for archery tackle, and not for crossbows.
Top Shot recently had a episode where the teams had to compete in archery. During the archery part, the marksmen did not fare too well. But then during the elimination part, the two contestants had to shoot crossbows. Bill Troubridge, who owns Excalibur crossbows was the "crossbow expert", who would assist the men. "The hardest part about shooting a crossbow, is learning how to cock it the right way." "You'll be fine, it's just like shooting a rifle." Then the men took their lesson, and the first shot was a bullseye at 40 yards. The marksman said: "This is more like it, it shoots a flatter trajectory." Anyone can go to the History channel and watch the episode for themselves. This is a manufacturer stating the ease of use, and that it is just like a rifle, and then you have two expert marksmen, who did horrible during the archery part, then excelled withing minutes at the crossbow part.
If game agencies wish to prostitute themselves, then they should just say so and not hide behind the guise of "hunter retention" and "new hunter introduction".
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:thumbsup: :thumbsup: for Al!
Well said sir!
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the crossbow was legal to use in NY, by means of the Modified Crossbow Permit,
Only if the person is so disabled that they must use a breath tube to use it. I doubt they have issued 100 total - probably far less.
The poison pen is tool not limited to one side.
What NYS bowhunting group has a proposal out to put amz season in the middle of early bow? That is a true threat to our bowseason.
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I would assume those of us who came from the compound ranks and gravitated to traditional bows for the added challenge probably have an overall different view of the issue than those who've never used compounds.
Having used a compound for years, I've personally been involved in the whole trend curve. I started with a Bear Polar LTD in 1978. Then we shot gloves and tabs, we shot instinctive and with a rubber flipper rest. Fast forward to todays super high tech compound world and it's night and day from the compound world of the 1970's.
I can't speak for all former compound shooters, but at least for me, I really don't see much difference in a modern high tech compound, with 80% letoff, drop away rest, glowing multiple pins, peep sights, machined releases with a string loop, etc., and an xbow. Put a modern compound rig on a table and spin it 90 degrees and it's nearly the same as a xbow.
Sure, you have to draw, but it's to the point where that's just a minor part of the whole deal anymore. With 80% letoff, you can draw and hold for as long as you need, if you want to do so.
I can take a guy that's never shot a bow in his life and get him shooting respectable groups at 15-20 yards in a half hour with a "loaded" compound setup.
In the grand scheme, compound rigs of today are closer relatives to xbows than they are traditional bows.
The technology genie is long out of the bottle.
If you don't think so, take a look at these...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZflTSNGEluI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MwLMebFa9IM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sr2McOMJLgQ&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=03y2BarHcUs&feature=fvw
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It is besides the point Steve, the crossbow was legal to use. Regardless of a breath tube, it was still legal tackle if the applicant obtained the permit. The number of permits issued is a direct result of the DEC not promoting it, or the Modified Archers Permit. At every single sport show, there are at least a dozen guys who never heard of either one. The DEC does not even own a Draw-Loc to use as a training device or as a visual aid. NYB brought one to Albany a few years ago to show them.
The poisoned pen is limited to one side, when that side has a vast media outlet to spew its' biased views to the masses, week after week.
Regarding the joint NYB/NYSMLA proposal, this was in direct reponse to the DEC proposal several years ago. The DEC wanted to stop the archery season two weeks after it began then start an early MZ season for 2 weeks, then start the archery season again. NYB was the ONLY state org that stepped up and rallied against this. The DEC backed off, but stated that it wanted to leave that 2 week window within the archery season for "future use". Because of the years of lying, renegging, and failure to even reason on the part of the DEC, NYB and the NYSMLA decided on this last proposal. It would be a natural progression of superior implements.
While we're on the topic of throwing stones, what state org got ALL of the bowhunters (not just their membership) the ability to use their DMAP's at the start of the archery season and not the first Monday after November 1st, as it was in the past? What state org was able to stop the DEC from inserting the MZ into the archery season, again not just for its' membership, but for all of NYS's bowhunters? What state org was able to get the Westchester county and Suffolk county archery season opened earlier, so that ALL bowhunters can enjoy the woods a little bit more? What state org has sent over 1,000 young persons through their Youth Camps to obtain their Bowhunter Saftey certificates? What state org has led the nation in getting the disabled and physically challenged bowhunter back into the woods using adaptive equipment? Was it NYSCC? No. Was it NYSCHA? No. It was New York Bowhunters, Inc. All volunteers, giving back, not being an armchair quarterback.
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Mojo - great posts. The horse has been out of the barn for nearly 40 years.
Al - out of respect for the forum here, I will not respond to an obviously biased veiw. If you wish to do it publically, pm me for a venue more suited.
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There will be no PM Steve. You are anti-NYB and take every opportunity to post your biased views and take shots at NYB. I stand by NYB and all that it does to protect, preserve, and promote archery and bowhunting within NYS.
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And I will continue to protect, preserve, and promote archery and bowhunting within NYS- with open discussions and truth.
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That's why I like it here in OR....crossbows are illegal....no provisions.....so that makes how many states?
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I been bow hunting since 1969 and have seen a lot of changes to the Bowhunting world as i'm sure a lot of you have. Since than it seems like hunters have been fighting each other on all levels. Bow this, Gun that, etc etc. Season changes, bag limits, and hunting methods and so a lot of energy has and is being wasted instead of working together towards a common goal. The “team approach” is an alien phenomenon to many hunters in these times more than ever. It has to be my way to hunt or nobody wins.
A house divided against itself cannot stand. Do we have the best interest of a nation of hunters at heart? Do we care? Are we all lovers of nature and the hunting way? Then why do we fight each other every step of the way?
Yes, there are many ways to reach a goal of bringing home the meat, but are we seeking the supreme welfare of all hunters? or are we more willing to fight among ourselfs for our own selfish methods of bringing home game? Rather than work together towards a common goal for the good of hunting and all hunters, lets keep fighting. And while were fighting, lets drop our guard down for those agaisn't us to sneak in.
Here a story, A group of six hunters were trapped by happenstance in dark and bitter cold of the mountains. They finally got a fire started with their last match. Each man had a weapon. One a gun, one a compound, one a crossbow, one a muzzleloader, one a recurve and the last one a longbow. As they sat huddled together in a very small cave freezing around a dying fire everything in sight was burnt up in the fire for various reasons.
When one man suggested that they put their weapons in the fire, the gun hunter in the group proposed that they discuss who will put his weapon in the fire first. Then, the traditional hunter in group stated that the Gun hunter was out of order. As they discussed the order of who will put his weapon in the fire first no one was willing to contribute his weapon to keep the fire burning until morning.and even argued whose idea it was that they use their weapons to keep the fire burning to keep them warm, the fire died out.
With their weapons in their hands, the group froze to death. “A nation where people fight each other will end in ruin. And a family of Hunters that fights will break up.”
Next time we feel like standing in opposition to progress, let us ask, “Is my action for the good of all or this is for my own selfish gain?” It is not rubber stamping everything, but let us choose our fights carefully. We must all go through a mental revolution, forsake all selfishness, and dedicate ourselves to the betterment of the nation. Hunt your way and allow some too hunt there way. For the end of it is near.
We must build for tomorrow and not “me first” for today. Will future generations come and praise us for what we build today? It is only through selfless devotion, unity and commitment to the betterment of all hunters will we be able to end our long decline and retake our rightful place among the progressive community of a nation.
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Please try to read this through with an open mind and think about the points and I'm sorry if anyone takes offense to this but here is the long and short of it.
The crossbow apeals to some people who currently do not bowhunt. If the states don't add it to the archery season they will shorten your archery season to make a season for it. Is it about money? Yes. The state needs to make more money and they will do it in the areas they need to. If they don't sell more license they will raise the price of the current one. Then everyone will want to complain about that. No one is saying that you have to use a crossbow but they are wanting to attract more people to hunting. Some people don't hunt because they don't shoot a bow well enough because they don't have time to practice and they don't gun hunt because of, well, the mad rush associated with gun season. And what of those who truly aren't phsically able to shoot a bow? Do they not deserve the right to be in the woods during "your" archery season? If this will attract more hunters then so be it.
The problems associated with the crossbow are not caused by the crossbow, they're caused by lazy, sloppy hunters and you don't have to own a crossbow to be one of those. As far as being a threat, how? Crossbows have been legal in Ohio, during archery sesason, for as long as I've been hunting. Our seasons have not gotten shorter and our yearly bag limit has increased from 1 deer of either sex to 1 of either sex and 5 antlerless. Any effects on the health of the herd? Everyone knows about Ohio whitetail.
I don't use a crossbow myself but I don't condemn those who do and in my oppinion it's of an eliteist mindset to do so. By the way it's an archery season not a "bow" season so technically the crossbow does fall into that equipment catagory.
If I have offended anyone I'm sorry but those are the facts of the matter.
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Hunters are hunters. Better crossbows then wolves my friends. I would never use one or consider them ethical. What has the compound become?
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I feel as though if NY does implement the crossbow season it may get some youth involved in hunting, I know when your that age sometimes a crossbow might be more appealing to a sixteen year old kid, then after being in the field and experiencing the out doors he may want to try other things like a recurve or long bow. I never wanted a recurve or stick bow when i was a kid i wanted a compound that is what all my buddies had, now i prefer shooting traditionaly. my point is lets give it a shot!
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If you look at license data from the state of OH that has had full inclusion of the crossbow in archery season since 1982 what I think you will find is that if given the choice a higher percentage of the youngest hunters about 16 years of age and under and a higher percentage of the oldest hunters about 50 and older will choose the crossbow versus a traditional or vertical bow.
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Think of all the used compounds you will see! LOL.
who cares! These guys wont see any deer anyhow,let them carry their cross bows a field.
I'm not pro Crossbow but I am certainly not against it. I would also be for more conservation officers and more game/property management. If the state wants more money, they could increase the deer herd where needed. When hunters see deer it makes them want to come back. I know a lot of guys that are not into it anymore due to the lack of excitement.
Think about it, would you count sheep, if you are floating in a boat in the ocean? Ok that was stupid but... I love to hunt because I love to be out there, a lot of guys go because they love to see deer. If the herd is so small they see one deer every 3rd year they will give it up.
If crossbows get more people out, great! On opening day of rifle season I heard about 4 close shots and maybe a total of 15 shots since (total). There is not many hunters out anymore.
In other states, it seems as if everyone hunts. You have gas stations and every store welcoming hunters. Every other car has camo and blaze orange in it. People drive around with tailgates down to show off their deer.
NOT IN NY!!!! Anything we can do to bring that back is a plus, crossbows may help. Now if we can do something with crappy attitudes toward hunting ( I'm talking about hunters acting like idiots here) then we will make a huge advancement in non hunters eyes. :readit:
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Never on my property.....
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i don't mind crossbows at all. the thing that would upset me is if the crossbow season was put in the early archery season. they ended up putting it in the late season archery/muzzle loader season and thats bad enough. why not give it it's own season and extend new yorks too short deer season. give it from the end of late archery into january for a couple weeks.
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In WI their Archery season starts in September. Gun season is 9 days and late season can extend into January. Of course there are little nuansces that change the legths here or there.
NY should adpot a similar season philosophy. I dont understand why they do what they do and assume its more tradition than logic.
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It is up to you, the entire hunting brethren to get the youth involved. Blame it on nobody but the person looking back at you in the mirror. Take a kid hunting, and let him or her shoot that deer, or turkey, or rabbit that you were going to shoot.
As far as numbers go, bowhunting in NYS has risen, and participants continue to flock to the early season opportunities. The numbers 5 years ago were at 179,000 bowhunting licenses sold, last year 204,000 were sold. That's around 20% in 5 years.
The crossbow is a very effective tool for killing deer, but it is a far cry from archery equipment, even the most modern, tech-advanced compound is still harder to master than a crossbow.
The big-tent theory of a house divided will fall has no merit here. The crossbow does not belong in archery season, but in the regular big game season where the state legislature voted to do this past session. A hand grenade is very effective, and easy to master at killing fish, should it be legal? What about the spear, atlatl, spike pits, etc...? All are effective and primative, where should they be placed?
It's all about the money. And, you still had two "hunters" in Ramapo who shot a deer with a crossbow, at night, in front of a house. The bolt was stuck in the woman's house, under her front bay window.
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Al Dente...I enjoy reading your posts...you make some excellent points...but your math is severely flawed....based on your numbers.....the increase is 25000....which is an increase of 14%, not 20%....not busting your chops, but I'm a stickler for accurate data.....
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Keep vigil men because if you let your guard down they may try to sneak it into your archery season as they hve here in Neb ! Big money and Outfitters leasing ground have put big pressure on lawmakers to just about allow anything in some states!Good Luck !
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I would not say that 6% is severely flawed, I did a quick calculation in my head while browsing through here.
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Point taken, Al Dente....'severely' was, well...too severe....
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10-4. I just wanted to point out that bowhunting participants have been and contiue to be on the rise.
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The crossbow is a very effective tool for killing deer, but it is a far cry from archery equipment, even the most modern, tech-advanced compound is still harder to master than a crossbow.
Harder by about an hour or less - the time needed to get a new shooter with a properly set up compound to get pie plate or better groups which is a common hunting accuracy standard for traditional equipment.
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True, a modern compound with all the accessories can be shot with pie plate accuracy by a newbie in a very short time. BUT...put that newbie in a hunting situation, with a pounding heart, and swirling winds, and the need to get to full draw without being caught...it is THERE that the crossbow proves it is NOT archery equipment.
I know a fella here in Michigan, where crossguns are newly legalized, who has shot his new crossgun a total of SIX times. Two of those six shots killed two bucks. It is something he brags about often. Even HE admits, the major difference between the lever action .44 mag he normally uses during firearms season and his crossgun, is the .44 does NOT have a scope.
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Not sure how he missed the gunpowder and bang :dunno:
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I say to each there own. If one wants to shoot a crossbow, that's fine, need more hunters or we could all lose your rights as hunters. Numbers talk. Crossbow is big and cumbersome and not as easy as people think. They have been legal here for 20 years for archery season yet you never see anyone hunting in the bush with them. If people think they automaticly shoot deer, well it is your option to buy one to. If it was not for deer, there would not be such a debate over them. Would one rather a guy buy a compound bow and go out deer hunting the next day with it? They let people go out into the woods who would normally not be out there. Everyone should stick together for the sake of our sport we choose to do. Killing has so little to do with this sport for me. Let more things walk than I shoot. I enjoy being out in nature, going into there envirement, We should be more concerned about losing woods to big deveopers and loggers instead of worring about crossbows. My opinion only.
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"If one wants to shoot a crossbow, that's fine, need more hunters or we could all lose your rights as hunters. Numbers talk."
Wheelie: Yours is the "big tent" philosophy that is shared by many hunters but not so popular with those opposed to the crossbow.
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JCJ you are right, I am not trying to change anyones mind nor will anyone change mine. All I say, if one wants to use a crossbow, it is more people I can shoot a deer infront of. Plenty to go around. I am sure some are apossed to me using dogs for rabbits. Most are scared of the unknown.
I find most that oppose crossbows are the ones that have never even tried one. If one tried hunting with them they are certainly not easy. Take your recurve or longbow, tie a cement brick to it and where ever you go hold it sideways. When you shoot watch for limbs cause you will get quite a jolt if limb hits a tree branch.
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Wheelie:
I have English Setter bird dogs and this time of year I often wish I had a good Beagle! Rabbits and hares are a underutilized game resource here.
Good hunting!
JCJ
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Originally posted by wheelie:
All I say, if one wants to use a crossbow, it is more people I can shoot a deer infront of. Plenty to go around. I am sure some are apossed to me using dogs for rabbits. Most are scared of the unknown.
I find most that oppose crossbows are the ones that have never even tried one. If one tried hunting with them they are certainly not easy. Take your recurve or longbow, tie a cement brick to it and where ever you go hold it sideways. When you shoot watch for limbs cause you will get quite a jolt if limb hits a tree branch.
I believe the nail has been hit right on the head.