Trad Gang
Main Boards => Hunting Legislation & Policies => Topic started by: recurvecody on July 27, 2010, 10:17:00 AM
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i was doing my mourning routne this mourning here at work drinking my coffee checking out the paper and decided to check out the hunting regulations here in oklahoma. i'm getting the itche to do some whitetail hunting. going throw the regs i noticed a change. crossbows are legal for everyone. i've always believed that if you where disabled and crossbows got you back to doing what you loved to do than by all means go hog wild. so i guess what im getting at is if its legal does that mean its ethical? i just want to hear some opinions on the subject, what do you think should a person be able to hunt with a crossbow along side a person who shoot traditional? so leave a comment on what you think or believe is right or wrong or how you feel about this subject.
thanks cody
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For the record I do not believe cross bows are bows at all. That being said, if it is legal to hunt with one then IMO it is ethical as long as you apply the weapon correctly. Take only kill shots and such. Track any wounded animal to the limits and such. Just because we limit ourselves does not mean the rest of the hunters out there must do the same. I love to hunt, period. The weapon I choose is decided by the season. If I could only choose one it would be my longbow. Honestly though, my firearms put a whole lot more meat in the freezer, but I am still pretty new to trad.
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We hunt alongside 30" ATA compounds with 80% plus letoff, scopes, and triggers.
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good points guys.
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Legal is applied by the state. Ethical is applied by the individual. If a person chooses to hunt with a crossbow where legal then for them it is ethical.
Crossbows have as much to do with archery as sniper rifles have to do with muzzloading. They don't belong in archery seasons in my view.
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i like that analogy ragnarok
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Sometimes, what's legal isn't ethical and what's ethical isn't legal.
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I agree completely with Tsalagi! :thumbsup:
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well said tsalagi.
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I would have to echo some of the sentiments above. I do not consider the crossbow a bow. In fact, I do not consider the compound a bow. They are what they are.
That being said, I do consider them "archery" gear and therefore having a place in "archery" seasons. The compound and crossbows should not be part of "bow" seasons. Thus, they should have seasons of their own based upon biology.
Compound users get all bent out of shape when you point out that there is little difference between the crossbow and compound. Doing so removes the veil and reveals that they are not using a stick and string, as they try to imply for their ego.
Yet, I have nothing against using either the crossbow or compound. I've been known to shoot them at various times.
Further, while it would be nice in a perfect world, what's legal would be based upon what's ethical. But, too many selfish interests prevent that from happening. Thus, just because something is legal doesn't mean it is ethical.
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very well put witherstick.
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My state and a few others I've hunted in define a bow as a weapon where the string is drawn and held by hand. The compound is still very much a bow, just not one I've owned in 13 years (or care to own). You need to draw a bow while the animal is relatively close to you, hold it, then release when the time is right. Many make the argument that with the 80%+ letoff you can draw the bow well in advance, but the fact remains a lot of hunters still get busted while drawing.
A crossbow can be set up to make a perfectly ethical kill on big game. It does not belong in a "bow season" though. It does not meet the requirements of a "bow" - being drawn and held by hand. There are special circumstances where a crossbow can be used in CT, and I support them being used in the regualr firearms season. I also support muzzleloaders and bows being used in the regular firearms season, but that ain't legal here either.
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For whatever its worth, its my opinion that crossbows should not be allowed during the bow only season, but they are. The legislature in Oklahoma went for the big box money, like Texas and others. Remains to be seen what will come of this. :dunno:
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Jeremy makes a good point as far as what can be defined as a bow legally.
However, this is also an example of allowing what's legal to guide one's own opinion. My state also recognizes the compound as a bow. But, I do not. There is very little bending occurring during the draw of a compound that creates a "bow" in the limbs. It's more of a compression wouldn't you say? Add to that, the fact that many crossbow hunters are busted trying to shoulder and steady one of those heavy awkward contraptions.
No, I'm not buying it. The law can say it is a bow, but it isn't for me. But again, I do think there is a place for compounds and crossbows. I just want to call an apple an apple, an orange an orange, and a bow a bow.
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Even in the dark ages a crossbow was not called a bow. The bowmen held a higher status and were far better trained, housed and fed than crossbowmen. The basic facts were that any individual could be taught to fire a crossbow with relative ease. Bowmen took a lifetime to reach great skill.
I am not against crossbows. I think the are find in modern rifle seasons along with the other stocked weapons.
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so would anyone agree that there should be a "crossbow only" season like the firearm season?
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I do not think that there is a reason for a crossbow only season in most areas at this time. However, the time might come when the need of limiting the time afield for compounds and crossbows becomes necessary.
As pointed out above, even centuries ago the crossbow was easier to master than the longbow. However, those same archers did not have the option of a modern compound either. These too are easily mastered!
This is why, for me, it is necessary to refer to a compound as a compound and a crossbow as a crossbow. Because that day might just come!!!
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As far as is it ethical if it's legal, would youtake a 50 yd. shot through brush at a moving animal? I wouldn't. It's perfectly legal to do but in my oppinion it's unethical.
There in lies part of the problem. Ethics are a purely personal thing. what is ethical to one isn't ethical to another.
As far as crossbows go. I think they're fine for the weak, elderly and disabled but I don't feel an able bodied hunter should bow hunt with one.
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In my humble opinion .Legal is what you are allowed to do by law
Ethical is what your morols, consience,and personal integrity will alow within the boundaries of law.
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No way on the crossbow season. They would cut the time out of the archery seasons.
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I think that any weapon with a scope and a trigger should be labeled as a fire arm and should not be permitted during bow season. Just my 2 cents.
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Crossbows in regular archery season are/were/will ALWAYS be, a slap in the face to everyone out there who are REAL bowhunters!
Do crossbows shooters practice year around?
Personally, my observations crossbow shooters practice LESS than most firearms shooters.
There is nothing fun about shooting a crossbow for hunting practice. If you are strong enough to pull it to "cocked" position, then you can EASILY shoot a conventional bow. If not, then the hand crank turns shooting the thing into a JOB!
As far as I`m concerned, the way crossbows were jammed down the throats of true bowhunters everywhere, should be a wake up call for all of us. Our "lawmakers" have now been shown that they can force ANYTHING through that they want.
Baby steps.
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Bonebuster said:
"If not, then the hand crank turns shooting the thing into a JOB!"
You nailed it, sir!
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As others have pointed out legal doesn't equal ethical. If crossguns are made legal in the bow season then one can hunt with one. Does that make it ethical to do so? That's up to the individual and society.
We all know that our fish and game Depts. exist largely through funds generated by taxes on hunting and fishing equipment as well as fees from licenses and permits.
Most crossgun hunters are gun hunters that want the extra season without the work and practice involved in learning to shoot a bow. Those hunters are buying archery tags or permits generating more money for the fish and game coffers. I'm afraid that they're here to stay and more and more states are going to allow them in the archery seasons. Sadly, money talks.(nut)
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Quoted by WITHERSTICK
Further, while it would be nice in a perfect world, what's legal would be based upon what's ethical. But, too many selfish interests prevent that from happening. Thus, just because something is legal doesn't mean it is ethical.
This statement accurately answers the posted question. Very well said Kirk.
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Ethical depends on the time in history.
I was once told by a really famous bowhunter that the way to get a big buck is to find a high spot where the deer cross and they are back lighted by the moon.
He said if you can see the rack- it has to be a good one.
Hunting by natural light was then considered OK; and really - its natural light...but it is illegal to do so now.
I got into bowhunting because I liked to see the arrow fly. I started with literally a stick and string- and some two fletch arrows and an Indian headdress- and my brother got the Roy Rogers guns.
But I started hunting things- anything. As a city kid it was bugs and chipmunks and squirrels; although no mammals were killed or injured in the process.
My mentor was a man that was into conservation; he was a hunter; and a speaker for hunting. He hunted with a gun; although once after an unsuccessful hunt for deer with a bow; he shot all his arrows at some grouse... and then the deer walked right up. But I could see how it was possible to take a deer with a bow.
Then came movie trailers. My first movie seen without my parents taking me to the movies was 'the house on haunted hill' and ' the tingler'.
In those days they showed one reel; then showed trailers of news and other interests while they got the second reel ready.
I got to see Howard Hill and Fred Bear in action.
But - there was something missing; not in them; but in me. I was not perceiving what I was seeing.
It took years of hunting with a gun; and great frustrations over hearing deer make noises; which I was ridiculed for suggesting; as the 'buck snort' was something related to eating beans.
Then I saw on TV -Fred Bear shoot a grizzly bear over a dead caribou. He screwed up the first shot; and really acted like a country bumpkin.
But then he shot the grizzly; and that flight of the arrow - I saw it connect him and the grizzly in a way that was like the brush of an artists stroke.
I saw the connection for the first real time between man and nature.
It was an artists action- I cannot draw a recognizable stick man- I can't throw a baseball; or toss a basketball or any feat of 'sport'.
I could swim; but I would not compete. I could play football; but backed out when the coach insisted we learn how to break the knee of the apposing quarterback. I refused.
I was chosen in high school gym class to be the goalie - two posts - no net.
And this guy from the other team made a great shot that was in.
The coach asked if it was in or out; and I said 'in' and both sides and the coach berated me.
I quit 'sports' that day.
I hunted with my bow for food when I left home. I learned the value of the reusable arrow.
In college I met a guy that asked me to go bowhunting for deer.
I had gotten out of the service; lost my Ben Pearson recurve in that time.
I did have a 1930s longbow my father used in military school as a child. I got good with it at ten yards; and was ready to take that shot.
I had taken many deer with a rifle and shotgun; and practiced with my bow for months; and got good at ten yards; although my arrows were mismatched and my broadheads were sharp by my standard at the time; and dull by my standards now- and I am glad I did not connect with a deer that first trip.
But I did get a shot at a deer; and it was very much slow motion; and I hit a tree the deer was standing behind.
But I saw something I had never seen before- I saw in that shot just as artistic a shot as Fred Bear had ever made. The arc of the arrow; the way it stopped right at the deer ( although in a sapling) - but it was a connection that I could not get out of my mind.
I still can't.
And I started mingling with Fred Bear; and other bowhunters.
And I read about Ishi.
His people all killed for their scalps; and his connection to the earth with his bow. He was the last 'wild indian' ; and he finally gave up; he turned himself into white mans world expecting to die: and did that in a way that really defined his understanding of white society- he turned himself into a slaughter house- naked.
Pope and Young learned about his villages as he made reproductions in their museum. They gave him relics taken from slain members of his own tribe; including the basket his sister had made; and that he last seen her with.
And through all that horror; for it had to be; he taught Pope and Young to hunt. He showed them respect for the wild beyond killing things.
And in his last living statement; he said " we will meet again in the flight of the arrow".
We have hunted as humans with bows that were not bent over saplings; but made from billets- for thousands upon thousands of years.
And in its purest form- the concept that Ishi passed on was not to kill; but to be a part of nature. It took practice and observation and skill.
Crossbow were ALWAYS a short cut to shooting arrows accurately. That was their point- that you did not have to practice to get good. It was a shortcut to hitting a target; and so are modern tech bows.
And now a few of these tech hunters are saying that Ishi; and Fred Bear and Ben Pearson; and Howard Hill were merely " experimenters in bowhunting" and that they are the result of all that experimenting.
I think: not.
Fred Bear talked about the 'spirit of the wild' and he was talking about the connection passed down with his hand shake with Young; and Youngs handshake with Ishi.
It was not about how many animals you could kill; it was about the adventure and the thrill of the hunt; and the thrill of the shot.
It has always taken a longer to do that with a bow than with a gun. Where the hunt ends with a rifle; the hunt begins with a bow. I remember the average shot distance with a rifle for deer with a gun; and it was 55 yards.
Now I see the bows of the tech world shooting way past that with confirmed confidence.
And cross'bows' take no skill beyond what you need with a bow- other than what to expect once you hit something.
The 'professionals' use more and more modern equipment; and Pete Shepley says the best thing you can do as a bowhunter: is to keep up with the technology.
You now can attach a range finder to you bow; and once the distance is determined you can pick your pin.
That I argue is NOT bowhunting. It is bastardized bowhunting. It is taking a woman you love and replacing her with a whore. It works; but it lacks communication and a real connection with another person on a mental level. It is money taking the place of skill; and wisdom and understanding and compassion.
I am opposed to the crossbows in archery season; and the use of the new high tech bows in archery season too -- for they admit and brag; they have taken the 'arch' out of 'archery'.
Our weakness didn't help; but we were up against numbers of people that like money and shortcuts to 'success'.
I don't want to share the woods making cow calls and elk bugles while rifle hunters are in the woods with me.
And I don't want people that do not understand bowhunting to take over bowhunting; and saying that we trad bowhunters are just the past; the experimenters; the ill equipped for bowhunting as the 'pros' think we ought to be.
Let them hunt in the rifle - as we call it the 'any weapon season'; and let them follow their horn porn to its conclusion.
Just lets make sure we don't get pushed out in the process.
Because we really run that risk...
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It doesn't surprise me that crossbows are allowed in Oklahoma. Hunter numbers are down due to laziness and this is another way to make hunting easier for the weekend warrior.
It's not ethical when your primary weapon is your gear and not your experience in the field. Just like the AR rifles, crossbows and modern compounds promote lazy hunting because they do not require hunters to actually hunt.
I see it all the time with rifle hunters. City folk sit at their desk all year and then once a year clean their gun and start shooting. The same thing will happen with bow hunting now that crossbows are allowed. They buy the gear they see on tv, and go hunting because it appears to be easy.
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Brian, that is one of the best things I've ever read. That should be published.
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Thanks
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It's not that big a deal. I think that after a year or two the crossbow folks will figure out that regardless of how much you spend on one, they are really not all that great of a hunting tool. They are VERY noisey.
I have a friend that works at a local sporting goods store. He said that when the new rule was posted, the things flew off the shelf. I have seen several folks shooting them at the archery range on my park. The Regional Game Biologist who is the advisor for my park, told me that tag sales for this year haven't moved off of the average for the last five years. Archery season starts this Friday. People may be buying them, but they either are putting down their compounds to use them or decided they are not going to hunt with them. So... not that many more hunters in the woods.
Crossbows are not going to sell all that many more licencesses or tags. Not around here anyway. I suppose the sales will generate more federal tax revenue which will be payed back to the states through the Wildlife Restoration Fund (Pittman-Robertson).
My Dad is considering buying one of the no scope, recurve models. I think that's good. It will get him back in the woods during bow season after a fifteen year absence because of a shoulder injury.
Just like metal riser bows, alum. and then carbon arrows (all of which some hunters claimed would ruin bow hunting) crossbows are here to stay. We can get over it, or let it eat us up.
Drive on.
OkKeith
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crossbows are not bows but I would have no problem hunting with a xbow shooter, compounder or gun hunter if it's legal.I shoot what I want and I'll hunt with another hunter as long as it's ethical and legal.
My style of hunting may not be for everyone and I won't make them shoot a recurve if they don't want to.
We're all hunters but I am a bowhunter.
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Ethical? Yes. Legal? Yes. Does it belong? NO. Why is it that we find out about these things after they are a law. Last year Oklahoma made a positive step and only allowed 2 bucks. Now they are going to only allow 2 bucks but I imagine that there will be more cripples and wounded bucks and does than ever before because I have been at Bass Pro in Tulsa and OKC and watched one after another file in to buy their undercover rifle. They have to ask what arrows, how to cock it(it is not drawing it to me), and then they are off. I have heard many people before it was legal say how cool it would be to hunt with a crossbow cause you can shoot deer with them at 100yds. How insane is that? Yes it is possible but unethical! Oklahoma is only worried about the money, that is why I moved into Kansas where they shoot one buck and out of state draws a tag or buys leftovers if there are any. I agree that if someone is disabled and cant draw a bow, they should have a special permit that allows the use of a crossbow. It is not going to be more hunters that hurt Ok deer hunting. IMO and it is only an opinion, the number of deer with BOLTS hopping around will increase because of unethical shots due to unrealistic expectations! I hope everyone who hunts OK will write into the department or call and express their concerns! To make it easier I have added the address.
ODWC
PO BOX 53465
OKC, OK 73152
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We'll probably see a number of injuries and fatalities from novice crossbow hunters who will:
1.) Walk around with a cocked and locked crossbow. Bolt falls out, they step on bolt, broadhead goes into calf all the way up.
2.) Try to cock crossbow by setting buttstock on ground and pushing string down---with bolt in the rail. Short-shuck it and bolt enters chest.
3.) Climb into treestand with cocked and locked crossbow. Drop it and fall themselves onto the bolt. Or drop it and it goes off and shoots them.
4.) Get careless with spare bolts, buy wrong quiver for them, other methods of ending up with bolt in thigh, abdomen, groin, elsewhere...
5.) Fail to realize shorter bolts mean the broadhead is that much closer to you. Get cut, stabbed, or otherwise severely injured.
People fail to realize that this is a weapon that could penetrate the plate armor of a knight. This is a weapon developed predominantly as a military weapon. They'll fail to respect this weapon, and they'll get hurt or killed. Yeah, the owner's manual for these weapons will warn them. But they won't read that. They'll think they can shoot the thing because "...it looks so easy." Yeah, well, "easy" kills more people than hard, for the most part. I might be wrong and hope I am because I don't want to see anyone hurt or killed. But I just don't see this going well. Too many nabobs.
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Originally posted by Ragnarok Forge:
Legal is applied by the state. Ethical is applied by the individual. If a person chooses to hunt with a crossbow where legal then for them it is ethical.
Actually, I don't agree with you there. Because this would mean that if a man lived in a country where he was allowed to beat his wife, it would not be unethical to do so. :)
But enough ranting :p
What I started wondering when reading the first post, why is it unethical to shoot the crossbow?
I thought the were efficient, and as good, if not better than bows! (Accuracy/penetration/range -wise)
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A crossbow only season was mentioned earlier. Just out of curiosity, where do you think they'll take that time from? Most likely the only time they can, archery season. Just go with it, they've been legal in Ohio for longer than I can remember and like I've said a thousand times, it's not the gloom and doom you all think it is. You don't believe me? Just look at some of the deer that are taken in Ohio every year. So we obviously have a healthy population. People talk about how long our archery season is. So it obviously hasn't affected it in any way. What I'm saying is, although I don't use them and really don't agree with them for healthy able bodied people, get off your pedistals and let people hunt with what they want.
By the way, an idiot that falls on his own arrows and shoots himself in the face is still an idiot. the crossbow won't make them that way, they'd still be an idiot that would get hurt even if they carried trad gear.
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We'll probably see a number of injuries and fatalities from novice crossbow hunters who will:
Several states have legalized them in the past few years and 1000's have been sold to new crossbow hunters. If your fear is correct, it must be happening and there must be stats out there showing it to be true. Perhaps you can find them for us?
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I helped my buddy, who has severe tendon problems in his arm, sight in his new crossbow the other day. At 30 yards it easily shot 3" groups, but sounded like an air-powered nail gun when shot. A couple of days later he shot a doe at 25 yards, got a complete chest pass-through, and the deer went down very quickly.
It was my first experience with a crossbow, and my impression is that it's just a poor substitute for a gun. It may be archery, but it's definitely not bow shooting in the normal sense. At least my buddy didn't have to stay home.
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It's hard to find stats on crossbow injuries because most are reported (if at all) as "hunting accidents" and they fail to give accurate info on the weapon involved.
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So has the hunting accident rate showed any sudden jump in the newly approved states?
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Originally posted by SteveB:
So has the hunting accident rate showed any sudden jump in the newly approved states?
This is a good question but I'm afraid that if the accidents are only listed as hunting accidents then you'll get a false sense of what's going on. If there are more hunters in the woods the accident rates will rise regardless of the weapons used, it's the law of averages.
If they're only listed as hunting accidents then who's to say that a tree step couldn't have pulled out and the guy fell out of a tree?
Maybe if the accidents aren't specificly listed the people getting hurt may not be crossbow hunters at all. :saywhat: Maybe a crossbow hunter has never had an accident.
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Well, if ya can't beat 'em, join 'em! I'm mounting this baby in my treestand!!!
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/eb/2-talent_caliber.jpg
Yeah, buddy, wait til the deer get a load of this joker!
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Just trying to see if any facts can support statements like:
We'll probably see a number of injuries and fatalities from novice crossbow hunters who will:
NY lists any hunting accidents involving the weapon seperately - thought some other may as well. If these type of accidents do indeed happen in any kind of significant numbers by new crossbow users, it would be an excellent fact to use against them in states not yet legal.
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Did a quick search and found this regarding crossbow related injuries in Ohio on the bowhunting.net website.
Myth: Crossbows are unsafe.
Fact: Quoting the previously mentioned letter from Michael J. Budzik, he also states:
�Likewise, our statistics regarding hunter incidents (accidents) show very little difference between the two bow types. Since 1976 we have had only 21 archery-related hunting incidents; 10 caused by longbow and 11 by crossbow. Harvest data suggest that more people hunt with crossbows than with longbows in Ohio.�
There are some more facts vs. myths info on crossbows in this. If anyone is interested here's the link to the page.
http://www.bowhunting.net/artman/publish/TenPointCrossbows/Crossbow_Myths.shtml
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SveinD,
I spent a year where it was both legal and considered ethical to beat your wife. Even if it was illegal their religeon tells them it is ethical since it will help her follow the faith and it's requirements. Try telling an Iraqi or Afghani that he can't beat his wife when she is stepping out of what Islam says is her rightful place. He will laugh at you and argue until he passes out that it is his right and his responsiblity to do so.
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Originally posted by Tsalagi:
Well, if ya can't beat 'em, join 'em! I'm mounting this baby in my treestand!!!
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/eb/2-talent_caliber.jpg
Yeah, buddy, wait til the deer get a load of this joker!
What does one of these babies cost? It looks safe!
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Droptine: the cost of that thing is minuscule compared to the cost of the castle you need to shoot at.
The link... kindly provided by 'Buckeye Trad Hunter' ...is a good one.
(for those that don't know a 'buckeye' is some kind of nut - I am from Ann Arbor and I know this for a fact!) :D
I didn't really ~hate~ crossbow people until I read the link really well.
There is the threat of 'ethics' being determined on the target range..
Ethics isn't law.
From Websters Dictionary:
plural but sing or plural in constr : the discipline dealing with what is good and bad and with moral duty and obligation
2
a : a set of moral principles : a theory or system of moral values —often used in plural but singular or plural in construction
b plural but sing or plural in constr : the principles of conduct governing an individual or a group
c : a guiding philosophy
d : a consciousness of moral importance
3
Columns - Monthly : Ten Point Crossbows
Last Updated: Aug 6, 2010 - 1:11:39 PM
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Candid Crossbows Is Sponsored By Ten Point Crossbows.
Crossbow Myths
By Ten Point Crossbow
Aug 1, 2007 - 7:24:35 AM
Popular Crossbow Myths vs. the Facts
by Ten Point Crossbow
Myth: A crossbow is not really a bow.
Fact: When comparing a crossbow to a compound bow, shot with a release, the differences between them are:
* The crossbow trigger mechanism holds the draw for the shooter.
* The bow assembly is positioned horizontally.
* The crossbow is aimed like a rifle.
Both weapons fire an arrow equipped with a broadhead designed to penetrate an animal, causing it to hemorrhage to death. The arrow coming from both weapons travels approximately the same distance, at approximately the same speed and energy, with approximately the same trajectory.
Myth: Crossbows make deer hunting too easy.
Fact: The advantage a crossbow has over a conventional bow is that it holds the bow in the drawn, or ready to fire, position for the shooter. While shooting a crossbow is generally easier to master than shooting a vertical bow, it cannot be argued that it is just plain easy. The crossbow hunter must have the same woodsmanship ability and nearly all of the same shooting skills as the vertical bowhunter.
Myth: Anyone can pick up a crossbow, practice for an hour, and be ready to head to the woods.
Fact: Any experienced crossbow hunter will tell you that there are many ways to make a bad shot with a crossbow. First, if a crossbow is not cocked perfectly straight, it will not shoot straight. If the bowstring is pulled even 1/16th of an inch to the right or left of center, that difference can translate into a six-inch error at 20-yards. Additionally, like any conventional bow shooter, a crossbow shooter must maintain a proper stance, control breathing, squeeze rather than �jerk� the trigger, steady the entire body, and follow through (watch the entire arrow flight through the sighting mechanism) after the release. And finally, the crossbow hunter must also be a good judge of distance and be practiced at shooting the crossbow at varying distances between five and approximately 35 yards.
Myth: A crossbow will shoot much faster and farther than compound bows.
Fact: Under controlled conditions, a series of velocity and kinetic energy tests were performed on 2 compound bows with 70# peak draw weights (248 and 205 feet per second) and 2 crossbows with 150# peak draw weights (228 and 242 feet per second). The bottom line was that both the compound bows and crossbows produced similar ballistic results. That is, the crossbows did not shoot farther or faster than compound bows, as some people claim. If fact, the arrow from the crossbow begins to lose velocity and energy slightly faster than the compound bow after 30 yards of flight because it shoots a lighter/shorter arrow. However, that difference, while measurable, is slight and insignificant considering the typical whitetail deer shot is less than 30 yards.
Myth: Crossbows have the knockdown power of a firearm.
Fact: Comparison tests have proven that there is a negligible ballistic difference between compound bows and crossbows. These tests disprove the claims that crossbows perform like firearms. In other words, a crossbow has no ballistic similarities to a firearm.
Myth: Crossbows shoot as flat as black powder rifles.
Fact: Again, through comparison tests it has been proven that crossbows do not perform the same as firearms. Crossbows typically start loosing velocity and energy at 30 yards compared to a black powder rifle which begins to loose velocity and energy at 100 yards or more.
Myth: Crossbow hunters are less experienced than conventional bowhunters, and will injure more deer.
Fact: There is no evidence to support this claim. Crossbow hunters must apply the same basic skills and techniques as conventional bowhunters. All hunters have to start somewhere. Nobody enters the woods for the first time as an expert. As a hunter gains more experience in shot placement, judging distance and overall hunting skill, they become far less likely to injure a deer. In addition, one of the largest groups of new crossbow hunters are experienced bow hunters who can no longer hunt with a conventional bow. They bring a vast amount of prior bowhunting knowledge with them. Finally, plenty of conventional bowhunters injure deer. The best approach to the issue of ethical shooting would be for individual states to consider requiring proficiency testing for all hunters.
Myth : Crossbow hunters are less ethical, dedicated and proficient than conventional bowhunters.
Fact: This statement requires one to assume that conventional bowhunters in general are skilled experts, who share a common passion and fervor, and are inherently ethical hunters. At face value alone, that assumption is unsupportable. It is safer to assume and easier to support the argument that many conventional bowhunters would have greater success and more �ethical hunts� if they used crossbow
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Fact: This statement requires one to assume that conventional bowhunters in general are skilled experts, who share a common passion and fervor, and are inherently ethical hunters. At face value alone, that assumption is unsupportable. It is safer to assume and easier to support the argument that many conventional bowhunters would have greater success and more ethical hunts if they used crossbow.
Brian I'll agree with you that this statement is way over the top. I don't agree with or endorse a statement like this in any way. I am guilty however of defending crossbow hunters quite a bit. I don't know if anyone has ever read some of my posts on this issue but I'll be completely honest about it, if it weren't for the crossbow being legal in Ohio my father would be unable to hunt except for during the firearms season. I understand the argument of the differences between a crossbow and a compound and a stickbow. But what really burns my a@@ are statements exactly like the one made in the link. The weapon someone chooses to use does not make them an unethical, clueless slob that is flailing around the woods wounding every animal that they see.
By the way, do you know the best way to get a University of Michigan off your porch? Just pay for the pizza. :biglaugh: I owed you that one Brian. I'm just glad you didn't say a buckeye was a worthless nut.
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Droptine, I'm going to start building and selling those. Then I'm going to lobby to get those into archery season. Hey, it's kind of a bow, um, after a sort, uh, you know, using the same principles and all that. I already have a GREAT name picked out for it! I'm going to call it the ExtremeMagnumBuckStomperMach5 M-25A1 Treestand-Mounted Crossbow. I know, I know, it's actually a ballista---but how many people know that outside of some Roman Army re-enactors! I stand to make MILLIONS!!!!! Think about it! You mount this baby in your treestand, do a kind of "boresight" on that baby dialed in to a pile of corn on the ground, and just sit there with the cord in your hand. You could be sitting there reading a magazine, see that buck munching that corn and just pull the cord and BADA-BING! It nails him to a tree! No tracking! It nails him to a tree! It's just that easy! Only problem I foresee is the range of this thing if you miss. That could present problems. "Who's the wiseguy that nailed my truck to a tree with this, uh, this, this, gigantic arrow thingie??!!"
This thing would also be awesome at 3D tournaments. I'd put it on wheels for that. You'd win every time! You'd get solid perfect scores! How could anyone dispute it? It'd carry the 3D animal a good 500 yards away! They're not going to walk over there and check!
And this thing would effectively put an end to every "What pound bow do I need for big game?" thread on the whole board here! What poundage do you need? Son, get one of these babies and you won't ever ask that question again! How does a crew-served bow sound to ya, m'boy? Maybe a thousand pound draw or higher. Pass-throughs ya want? This thing will pass through 5 friggin' 1972 Cadillacs and keep going.
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One consolation I have with crossbow hunters sharing the woods with me is that they won't be adding the chaos that rifle shots add to the woods. Deer (and other game) behave very differently when folks are shooting rifles in my area. There are pros and cons to allowing crossbows during bow seasons, but fortunately, the disturbance due to firing one is negligible as compared to gun seasons. So, for that, I am thankful.
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Buckeye Trad Hunter: no not worthless !! Where do you think we get our best coaches from ?? :D
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I think washington is handling it well right now. Crossbows can hunt in modern season. Only disabled hunters can use a crossbow during archery season.
A cross bow has as much to do with archery as a modern sniper rifle has to do with muzzleloading. If it has a stock and a scope it is not archery. Never has been, never will be. Even in the dark ages the crossbowmen were never mistaken for or treated as archers. It has been known since the dark ages that given a short period of time anyone can become reasonably proficient with a crossbow. The posted comments above from the crossbow folks are flat silly. They fail to account for all the last minute folks who walk into the crossbow shop two days before season. I can't shoot but I want to hunt. Set me up! I have a buddy who owns an archery shop and has guys try this every year with compounds. Crossbows just make it easier for these yokels.
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I don't think it is appropriate that crossbows be allowed in archery seasons. Archery seasons were created for bows and they should have stayed that way. Maybe in time they will get back to what they were meant to be.
In the "any-weapon" season is where crossbows belong, in my opinion.
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Just so y'all know one of the great posters on this thread, Brian Krebs has passed on. See the prayers and concerns forum.(nut) :(