Post by: SEMO_HUNTER on October 12, 2010, 03:56:00 PM
I may have struck a nerve of another member who is from Missouri when I made a comment about the unlimited doe permits available for much of the state. Basically the entire northern portion north of the Missouri River with a small handful of counties south of that line is open quota for antlerless deer.
Let me first say this:
I am Proud to have been born in Missouri and I've lived and hunted here my whole life. I also agree that we have one of the best Conservation Departments around, but no system or organization is without it's flaws. Taking a lackadaisical passive approach or stance if you will, to such things of this nature (Literally) is entirely the wrong way to go about it.
Afterall, it's our deer, turkey, fish, fur bearers, and waterfowl that we are talking about. Aside from the waterfowl which is regulated by the Federal Govt. our own Conservation Department sets the rules, limits, methods of harvest, and general guidelines for our seasons.
One of the flaws that I pointed out in the other Missouri thread was the unlimited doe permits issued and I believe my comment was taken the wrong way by someone else?
Let me explain.
I've hunted from as far north as Montgomery, Audrain, Lincoln, Warren, Monroe, and Callaway Counties, to as far south as St. Francios, Dent, and Wayne counties and everywhere in between, as I'm sure many of you have.
To plainly state that there are too many does/deer and unlimited antlerless permits should be made available is a fairly simple concept...correct? Not so easy.
Harvest data and herd population densities must be obtained first...also correct. Do you know where most of that data comes from? Insurance companies.....from deer/car collisions. Also from MODOT which picks up carcasses off the highways.
You might think it comes from the Telecheck system wouldn't you? Not all of it, and exactly how reliable of a system is that?
It's convenient, I'll surely give it that much. I like the idea of calling from my hunting property when I check a deer and still have a buck tag in my pocket I want to fill. That way I can check my deer while eating a sandwich and go back to hunting immediately afterwards, but how many people do you think abuse that same system? I have personally witnessed it being abused quite often, and heard second hand of even more abuse of that system. I've even called that abuse into the local agent, with not so much as a follow up.
So to think that the Telecheck system is a reliable source of data for the biological diversity of our deer herd is just naive and ridiculous. They may sell that song to most of the state's sportsmen and women, but not me.
It's my belief that at this point in the game where the unlimited quota on does in most Missouri counties has been the norm for quite a number of years, it's time to switch gears a little bit and start basing it on area specific circumstances. I'm talking about County by County and areas within those Counties needs to be more closely looked at to determine if there does indeed exist a condition of over population before just handing out a gazillion anterless permits.
No system, or organization is without it's flaws...period.
I have personally seen entire herds in certain areas get so out of balance from taking out the largest most mature does and leaving the young to maintain the population, that there was only a sporadic evidence of a rut phase that it was almost non-existent. Taking out too many does can be just as much a bad thing as it can be a good thing, you just need to know when to stop....and which ones to take out, which ones to leave.
Also the 4pt. rule needs addressing while I'm at it, and I know this will get me flamed by some of you, but I'm just going to spit it out there and let you all chew on it.
While it sounds good in theory, and basically it's got some good points.....it's not all that simple. It is just not sound herd management to allow a cow horn spike with daggers 8" long and a sack of jewels on him like a pony, walk away protected to infect the rest of the herd with his inferior genetics.....then allow the taking of a 1 1/2 year old basket racked 8pt. just because he has 4 on one side. That is illogical thinking at it's worst. Then on the same hand allowing yearling spikes with tiny little horn tips 3" or less be legal to take, why is that? Because they know they will get shot anyway when they are mistaken for a doe? That's not a good enough excuse in my book. Poor herd management is all it boils down to.
Missouri does have an excellent Conservation Department, just let me reaffirm that. I'm not trashing the Department in any way, just pointing out a few flaws in the system that need addressed. At least we do have a checking system unlike some of our other states to the south of us.....such as Texas for example.
You don't check deer there, my younger brother lives there and he said it's somewhat of an honor system, but if you take it to a meat locker to have processed then they keep the information there with them.
Then on the other hand.....Texas knows how to manage it's deer herd with proper QDM principles (Oh no, I just had to bring up that acronym didn't I) it's true. Texas manages it's state herd for larger bucks based on spread, not just the number of points.
I think Missouri could take a lesson from Texas on that aspect of manging for larger more mature bucks.
Lastly, my own father was an agent for the MDC for quite a few years, so I know first hand a little bit about what I'm talking about. I also fished tournaments with Jeff Berringer who is a nuisance trapper/consultant for the animal control division with the MDC. Ken Drenon (The Ombudsman)..now retired...was also an acquaintance of mine. So please don't misunderstand me or misjudge me with my frank assessment of our Conservation System, because I have the utmost respect for it and everyone involved in it.
To question the flaws of a system is to improve upon it. Without improvement, we are no better than any of the rest.
Thanks for reading and all comments welcomed, please join in.
Post by: rainman on October 12, 2010, 04:13:00 PM
Semper Fidelis
Dan Raney
Post by: SEMO_HUNTER on October 12, 2010, 04:21:00 PM
They think that if they don't kill it.....the next guy will. I try to tell them that if they kill it.....then there's a 100% chance that it will never grow up and get any bigger!
That's the same as seeing the glass as half empty/half full....just depends on your perspective.
I'm Glad we could have a healthy discussion about things and I hope some other fellas from Missouri will chime in too.
~SEMO~
Post by: bornagainbowhunter on October 12, 2010, 04:27:00 PM
If you could tell folks to kill mature bucks and people would actually abide by it, deer horn size would grow ALOT, but we all know that would not work.
God Bless,
Nathan
Post by: fredhill on October 12, 2010, 07:38:00 PM
Post by: Friend on October 12, 2010, 08:30:00 PM
1. 1st deer must be a doe and all deer must be physically checked-in. Portion of liscense is used as a check-in fee for the check-in station.
2. 2nd deer may be a buck
3. Additional doe tags determined yearly by biologist.
The #1 problem as I see it is that the fear of loss of revenue takes presedence over implementing a visually effective program. The honor system is failing miserably. I saw more rut activity, more and better quality bucks when we had a 2 buck per season limit.
Post by: SEMO_HUNTER on October 12, 2010, 08:38:00 PM
fredhill- That's a perfect comment about the point I was trying to make of all this. Some areas are still almost over run with does and they need to keep the program going in those areas, but there are other areas with lots of hunting/harvest pressure that they need to back off the doe tags a little bit. I'm not saying to take it away completely, but just make it where you get 1 any deer tag, and 1 anterless only tag. That's still 2 does or a buck and a doe, I think that's plenty for anybody and that's the rules here in St. Francois county. We can get as many does with archery equipment we want to, but with a rifle it's 1 any deer and 1 antlerless...then that's it.
There are guys down here that I know of that abuse the system anyway regardless and they still go out and kill 6-7-8 deer a season with rifle, and muzzle loader. They just use their family's tags, or somebody else's farm tags and keep shootin'.....or they just don't tag them at all. It makes me sick that it happens and there's not a darn thing I can do about it....I've tried and it falls on deaf ears.
I abide by the laws and I'm always legal....I don't think my hunting experience has ever suffered from abiding by the laws cause I always get my share.
Thanks for your honest replies guys.
~SEMO~
Post by: SEMO_HUNTER on October 12, 2010, 08:46:00 PM
The state is trying to save some money by letting people check their deer over the phone and your right.....it is failing miserably. A guy I used to work with brought in pictures of a small 8pt. he killed with a compound bow, then about a week and a half later he brought in another picture of a bigger buck he killed with a compound bow. I asked him point blank.....I didn't know you could kill 2 bucks with a bow in Missouri before rifle season, I thought you had to wait till after to get your second buck?? He replied that he checked the first one in as a doe over the phone using Telecheck. I just shook my head and walked away. I had to just to avoid a confrontation, in front of people, and at work on top of that.....it wasn't the right time or place to say anything more.
If anybody out there thinks that this doesn't happen all the time, then they are only fooling themselves. If anything is left up to the honor system, there will always be people who figure out a way to exploit it.
One more thing and don't get me wrong....I think it's a fine program to get kids involved in hunting...I really do.
But here's yet another guy at the same place I worked at that told me and about 4 other guys how he took a shot at a huge buck and missed during the youth rifle season in October. I asked him why he shot at it and his boy didn't??
To which he replied....."There wasn't time to hand him the gun and I wasn't going to let that monster get away without taking a shot at him"
Luckily he missed, hopefully he didn't wound it to just go off and die a slow miserable death, but I told him I was glad he missed and that he didn't deserve to be in the woods with a gun or a kid. I just couldn't hold my tongue on that one.
Post by: Mudd on October 12, 2010, 08:51:00 PM
I love about 90% of what MDC does but they do and have made mistakes. I hope they rectify them.
I have an opinion and I do let them know.
God bless,Mudd
Post by: buckhuck on October 12, 2010, 09:05:00 PM
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It's convenient, I'll surely give it that much. I like the idea of calling from my hunting property when I check a deer and still have a buck tag in my pocket I want to fill. That way I can check my deer while eating a sandwich and go back to hunting immediately afterwards, but how many people do you think abuse that same system?How many people abuse the system? My guess would be the same people who abused the old system.
It doesn't matter how you collect the data from the field, they need some sort of mechanism to set quotas based on kills. Check station, or telecheck, it doesn't matter to the poachers they aren't participating anyway.
In talking with the agent in the county I hunt, if anything, Telecheck has made it easier to catch the knuckle heads who do poach. The guy who telechecks his deer 10 min after he buys the tag at wally world is pretty easy to track down. Esp since his name and address are readily available and computer records show the date of purchase and the time of telecheck.
I agree that I see fewer does now than I used to. Maybe they are just getting smarter now that they are a target?
Post by: SEMO_HUNTER on October 12, 2010, 09:15:00 PM
I didn't like it one bit when they recently moved black powder season to late December, when it used to pick up right after the rifle portion was over. That's like saying....We don't care about you traditional black powder guys. Well, no amount of complaining changed anything so I sold my front stuffer and now I just pick up the bow again after rifle season is over. I'd rather bow hunt anyway.
Buckhuck- That is very true, poachers are nothing more than thieves and they will find a way to keep doing what it is that they do no matter what.
Post by: Jon Powell on October 12, 2010, 09:25:00 PM
Post by: swp on October 12, 2010, 09:29:00 PM
Post by: SEMO_HUNTER on October 12, 2010, 09:35:00 PM
Honestly, I kinda miss the check stations. We used to drive by the local ones and hang out for a little bit just looking at some of the monsters that came through. There was a certain comradery in the air around a check station that just felt good to be in the midst of. I love hearing other people's stories about how they got it, where, how nervous they got, and so forth. I miss that.
Post by: SEMO_HUNTER on October 12, 2010, 09:38:00 PM
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Originally posted by swp:Wow, your further south than I am. What major city is around there that needs an urban season??
Couldn't agree more with you SEMO!! Why my area of Christian County still has an urban hunt is a mystery to me. I am averaging seeing less than 1 deer per outing nowdays and there is still an urban gun season????
Post by: buckhuck on October 12, 2010, 09:40:00 PM
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Honestly, I kinda miss the check stations. We used to drive by the local ones and hang out for a little bit just looking at some of the monsters that came through. There was a certain comradery in the air around a check station that just felt good to be in the midst of. I love hearing other people's stories about how they got it, where, how nervous they got, and so forth. I miss that.I agree, that was always really fun. I am sure the gas stations hate it too since they probably made a little $$ off us hanging around shooting the bull.
Post by: SEMO_HUNTER on October 12, 2010, 09:48:00 PM
Post by: Tom D on October 12, 2010, 10:07:00 PM
I know they are all running crazy during gun season but now may be a good time to make that personal contact. All I know appreciate any help they get. A little pre-work before season makes it easier for them to jump in on a fresh lead.
I have spent some time riding with an agent the last couple of years. Some days are crazy!!! I have seen the tele check result in some easy tickets.
I have been opposed to the 4 point rule ever since it was proposed.
I also liked the check stations but I know people abused both systems.
Post by: Jim Jackson on October 12, 2010, 10:28:00 PM
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Wow, your further south than I am. What major city is around there that needs an urban season??Springfield....third largest in the state. At least they cut the urban portion down from a three county area to only Greene and a small portion of Christian.
Post by: SEMO_HUNTER on October 12, 2010, 11:00:00 PM
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Originally posted by Tom D:Yes and yes to both questions. I was on a first name basis with the agent in my particular county and though I have not contacted him about any violations around these parts (but I should have) the incidents that I made referrence to occured in another county and I didn't know that agent. My older brother and myself used the OGT 800# and got a local dispatch that put us in touch with the agent. My brother spoke to him on the phone and gave very accurate details about the violations, time, location, vehicle descriptions, ect. and was told that he would follow up on it immediately. We were in the area where these violations took place, but kept our distance and no agent ever showed. Then the perps left without incident. My brother recieved a phone call a few days later from the agent who explained that a sheriff's deputy was dispatched to the scene and found nothing of wrong doing. My brother then explained to the agent about our close proximity to the situation and no deputy ever showed up, that's why he found nothing of wrong doing. Needless to say the perps got off scott free and the agent had no reasonable explanation for the mis-communication. So it somewhat left us both with a feeling of "Why even bother?" and at the very least a sick feeling in our stomachs and a bad taste in our mouths. Why plaster a hotline number all over the state if no one ever follows up on tips? Maybe it was just this particular incident, maybe it was this particular agent, or maybe that's pretty much the consensus everywhere in the state? Who knows.
May I suggest you make contact with your local agent. You mentioned you had passed on information but did you talk with your agent or use OGT?
I know they are all running crazy during gun season but now may be a good time to make that personal contact. All I know appreciate any help they get. A little pre-work before season makes it easier for them to jump in on a fresh lead.
I have spent some time riding with an agent the last couple of years. Some days are crazy!!! I have seen the tele check result in some easy tickets.
I have been opposed to the 4 point rule ever since it was proposed.
I also liked the check stations but I know people abused both systems.
This was a most serious and blatant attack on our wildlife of the worst kind. Some guys on the adjacent property to ours were shooting deer with rifles during bow season. We heard the shots and saw them dragging deer out, pretty obvious to us. The perps should have had their license taken away for life, lost their weapons as evidence, their vehicles impounded indefinitely, and saw stiff fines with jail time. Yet they got nothing.
Post by: SEMO_HUNTER on October 12, 2010, 11:08:00 PM
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Originally posted by A. Kinslow:I didn't realize that Springfield was that close, but then I had to look on my county map to find Christian County also. I haven't spent much time down that way, just passed through on occasion when coming back from Texas or Arkansas visiting family.
QuoteWow, your further south than I am. What major city is around there that needs an urban season??Springfield....third largest in the state. At least they cut the urban portion down from a three county area to only Greene and a small portion of Christian. [/b]
Post by: Living_waters on October 13, 2010, 12:04:00 AM
What better way to spend a Saturday night then to set on the tailgate of a truck and watch the parade of deer come in.
But since the open doe tags began there we have seen a steady decline, not only in quality of deer but quantity, winters are rough on the deer in that part of the country and the mortality rate of young does I believe has greatly decreased the herd.
Post by: -Achilles- on October 13, 2010, 01:16:00 AM
I have a few problems with mdc.
Like being able to kill hogs by any means neccesary anytime.Another dream for a poacher.Used to if they caught you in the woods before gun season with a gun you got a ticket for hunting out of season.Now all you have to say is your hog hunting.Yes I'm all for hogs in missouri.
How about it being illegal to kill owls,hawks or have the feathers of either.I see dead hawks on the road all the time and I'd love to get and use the feathers but its a big fine to have posession..I don't like that something is protected that kills alot of rabbits out.
Rabbits!What is going on with rabbit populations?You used to be able to drive down any gravel road at night and they would be everywhere.Now you rarely see any at all.You could get your limit with a bow now it can be tough to get your limit with a gun.Me and my family hardly go anymore theres just not enough rabbits to bother.
As far as big antlers I really don't care.I hunt for the meat and the horns mean nothing.If I shot a record deer it wouldn't get stuffed.I'd keep the antlers though for show.
I'm a (we could never have too many deer) kinda person)Whatever makes the deer population larger I'm all for it.
As far as MDC agents.What agents?Haven't seen them while out fishing or hunting or been checked in years.
Post by: Charlie Lamb on October 13, 2010, 06:31:00 AM
Post by: swp on October 13, 2010, 07:29:00 AM
I am about 10 miles southeast of Springfield.
Post by: -Achilles- on October 13, 2010, 09:08:00 AM
Well then the state needs to change this.
Post by: SEMO_HUNTER on October 13, 2010, 09:09:00 AM
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Originally posted by Charlie Lamb:Thanks Charlie, that's what I was going to say.
Just a note before I move this to politics forum.... Hawks owls and possession of their parts is a Federal thing.
Sorry I started this in the wrong category, I hadn't even seen the Hunting/Legislation Policies section yet?
Crows are also fall under a Federal blanket of protection and there is a season on them, but around here they are obnoxiously thick!
I can't understand the protection they have on them, but I think it has something to do with a Mexican type Crow that there aren't that many of?
Post by: SEMO_HUNTER on October 13, 2010, 09:12:00 AM
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Originally posted by -Achilles-:Native American Indians are the only ones allowed to possess feathers from birds of prey including eagles. Then, it must be determined that their use is for ceremonial purposes.
"Hawks owls and possession of their parts is a Federal thing."
Well then the state needs to change this.
Are you part indian? You could probably get some feathers if you are?
Post by: -Achilles- on October 13, 2010, 09:31:00 AM
Now the eagle I get why its protected.
Post by: SEMO_HUNTER on October 13, 2010, 09:36:00 AM
It's the quail disappearing that has really concerned me. We used to have a couple of small covies around here, now I haven't heard one whistle all summer. That just makes me sick, and I try to manage our place the way they reccomend to be suitable for quail, but I really haven't noticed it making a difference. Of course there's only so much one man can do, and you would have a hard time convincing my uncles to get rid of their cows that graze everything down. I don't mind cows, but I don't think the grazing helps the quail situation at all?
Post by: -Achilles- on October 13, 2010, 09:47:00 AM
Post by: fredhill on October 13, 2010, 10:28:00 AM
overall i'm glad i live in a state with such a good conservation dept. MO offers fantastic hunting with affordable over the counter nonresident tags (the way it should be everywhere). we have a public land system that is fantastic, only out west will you find anything better.
Post by: SEMO_HUNTER on October 13, 2010, 10:46:00 AM
As far as the antlerless portion of rifle season, we don't need that. That was a bad idea when it started in my opinion. There are enough does killed during the regular season and to pound them for another 10 days after already being pounded for 10 days is just plain wrong. If they do have an antlerless portion it should only be for 2 days in mid December and move the muzzle loader portion back where it was.
Besides, by allowing rifles in the woods immediately following the regualar rifle season....how many big bucks do you think get shot during that time? How many guys would pass up the oppurtunity if they saw that bruiser with gun in hand, that had eluded them all season long, and now they are only allowed to shoot a doe? I think the buck would go down in most cases, few people have that kind of restraint. Then it would just be one of those that they don't talk about and pass it off as a bow kill later on. I know it happens, and probably more than we think. If I can sit here at my computer and dream up that scenerio, I know it's already happened many times.
I also think there should be more restrictions put on out of state non-resident hunters, but that won't happen cause it brings in too much revenue. I've already had that conversation with Ken Drennon, and a few others over at MDC and you just as well eat your deer tag because that's about as far as it will get. When I said I had some aquaintences at MDC, I didn't necessarily mean friends or colleagues. They know my name all to well because I have been very vocal with many of them and had endless debates over hot topics. I'm like you, I tend to voice my displeasure with certain issues without hesitation. Sometimes I get them to listen, other times it falls on deaf ears, but they get to hear it none the less. I dont' ever settle for "That's just the way it is" line of BS, that will get me started quicker than anything else.
I also believe that 1 buck is plenty. If you only had one buck tag to get you through bow season, rifle season, and muzzle loader you would surely chose wisely. As it is right now, a guy could possible get 3 bucks a season. However that is highly unlikely, I have seen some that achieved that goal with 3 bruisers in one season all going over the 140" mark. How many does one guy need in a season? I've gone my entire life with only putting 2 on the wall with a truckload of smaller bucks back in my younger, less informed hunting days. Now I let many of them walk and turn my efforts toward putting meat on the ground and wait for the right buck to come around.
Post by: Jeremy on October 13, 2010, 11:46:00 AM
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Originally posted by SEMO_HUNTER:That's like saying I have superior genetics just b/c my, err, hands are bigger. :rolleyes:
It is just not sound herd management to allow a cow horn spike with daggers 8" long and a sack of jewels on him like a pony, walk away protected to infect the rest of the herd with his inferior genetics.
There's a whole lot more to "good genetics" than rack size. Resistance to disease, fitness, stamina, general 'intelligence', skeletal and muscular types... traits that actually allow a species to to adapt to and survive in their environment.
When a selective pressure (hunting) is applied to maximize rack size that's what you get. It's not selecting for the fittest individual (what's best for the herd) just the individual that we want to see. Let's start calling it as it is.
Post by: SEMO_HUNTER on October 13, 2010, 04:01:00 PM
A bucks rack is an excellent indicator of his stamina, genetics, durability to withstand disease, and his ability to adapt and survive in his environment......how else do you think he managed to get that big?
I do call it like it is, and that's a fact.
Big bodied cow horn spikes are exactly what they are and all they ever will be. By taking those deer out of the gene pool you open up more habitat, food, and available does to breed for bigger, better quality bucks. It's not just one more mouth to feed, but another competitor for available hot does. Perfect example.....I killed a big spike a few years ago that came to my calls every time I made a call sequence, grunts, bleats, rattling you name it, he responded. He was roaming that ridge and no other bucks besides him ever responded....Why? Because he was guarding that area and with his dagger like head gear it would be hard for a normal buck with a normal rack to defend himself against such an aggressive spike. Only after calling him in for the 4th time in 2 separate weekends I determined he had to go, so I used my archery tag to put him in the freezer. That opened up an area to other bucks that I want to be there.
The evidence is in the quality of bucks we began to see on that particular property when my brother and I started practicing these principles. In 3 consecutive years after about 4 years of our own self implied antler restrictions, long before Missouri ever implemented theirs, my brother took a P&Y class buck every year. I myself took the biggest buck of my life the year after his successes, a 155" 10pt. that I'm sure was one of the bucks I had passed on for previous years. I let a bunch of small 8 and 10pts. walk for 4 years hoping for a chance at a real booner, and it finally happened.
I don't know about you, but if I have the opportunity to manage my deer herd to any extent at all, I'm going to take those kind of bucks out of the herd to make room for ones that definitely have potential. Then just maybe the next one I call in on that same ridge will be a quality buck.
You also have to remember that this is Missouri we are talking about, not Connecticut. The winters here are rarely severe enough to kill of any deer except the wounded or sick, so the ability to survive in this environment is a cake walk compared to deer way up north where the winters are harsh.
Unfortunately, in certain parts of Missouri now it is illegal to kill such a buck because he doesn't have 4pts. on one side, that's the point I was trying to make. The option to terminate a lesser quality buck such as the big spike I mentioned has been taken completely out of our hands in those areas of Missouri with the 4pt. rule.
Post by: -Achilles- on October 13, 2010, 04:41:00 PM
Post by: SEMO_HUNTER on October 13, 2010, 06:49:00 PM
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Originally posted by -Achilles-:Yes, body size is like any other deer, they will grow to be big and fat.
Why couldn't a spike survive and grow bigger? Not rack size but body size?I don't care about racks personally I only hunt for meat but I was wondering.
I'm not interested in a big bodied deer to eat because they get tough anyway. If I want a good piece of tender venison I'll shoot a yearling doe.
If I'm after a buck then I'm looking for a nice rack. Not many people would disagree with that, but to each his own. If your not after a trophy rack then that's great, the trophy is in the eye of the beholder. Dreaming about huge racked bucks is what gets me fired up and going through the ritual every fall.
I will add though that the criteria for trophy status is subject to change at anytime. This year since I'm hunting exclusively with trad gear during the archery portion and I have yet to take one with a trad bow, any deer would be a trophy for me and I would be just as proud of it as if it were a booner.
Post by: fredhill on October 13, 2010, 08:29:00 PM
Post by: -Achilles- on October 13, 2010, 08:31:00 PM
Post by: SEMO_HUNTER on October 13, 2010, 11:47:00 PM
We are lucky enough to have some property in Montgomery county and you can get as many doe tags for archery and rifle as you want to up there, the 4pt. rule is also in affect.
I rarely buy an extra tag, 2 with a bow is plenty and if I get one with a rifle fine, but it's not really necessary because I've usually got all the meat I can use in the freezer by the time that rolls around, that's another reason why I'm mainly just after a big buck. Mostly because I'm not meat hunting at that point and I can afford to wait as long as it takes, if it doesn't happen then so be it.
If I kill one with a bow and my dad kills one with a bow then that's about all we need. I'm not one of those guys who keeps killing deer just because I have tags left, that's not how I see it. Take what you need, eat what you take, and leave the rest for seed.
Nature is GOD's dinner table, that HE has provided for us to feed ourselves from, and I won't steal food from HIS table, I won't make a glutton of myself while seated at HIS table either. I think GOD also likes for us to share the bounty from HIS table with others who cannot reach it for themselves.
Maybe that sounds silly to some people, but that's how I feel about it.
Post by: -Achilles- on October 14, 2010, 12:37:00 AM
As a guy once told me "gun season is for amateurs"
I knew a guy that was a serious poacher that would use up all his tags,then have other people buy tags and tag the deer he killed.He killed ALOT.Once he got busted with a turkey.He actually tells the game warden after getting his ticket "thats just 1 more turkey that will die this year".I hated that sob and karma had its way with him thankfully.I can actually accept a certain amount of poaching when I know that its a poor guy that just needs food but that sob had it coming.
I'm sure you will get your big rack buck eventually.Thats what makes its special is it being so hard or rare to get.
I know a guy his first time out in the woods(real green horn).Sits down at his spot opening morning of rifle season and shot a huge deer within 30 minutes of sitting down.I was like "you lucky sob" I'm not sure what it scored but it was huge for this area.
Man I'm psyched.Expecting a Hill bow in the mail any day.yeehaw
Post by: Jeremy on October 14, 2010, 08:28:00 AM
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Originally posted by SEMO_HUNTER:Not to belabor the point, but your example backed up my statement. That big spike owned his patch of the woods. He was bigger, badder and stronger than his competitors and his daggers gave him a selective advantage to mate the available does. That is the definition of the fittest individual.
...how else do you think he managed to get that big?
I have a similar situation around my house (I live in the sticks). Since a 4pt showed up a few years ago all the 8 and 10pts I had been seeing have left. He was big when his momma kicked him out of her woods and he's huge and muscular now, but still just a fork horn. I didn't realize where the big racks went until I saw this guy clear a bachelor group of 6 and 8 pointers out of a field one night. That fork horn is king. The downside is I'm not seeing the big racks while out and about... the upside is I'm seeing bigger fawns and yearlings who are better able to survive the winters and evade predators.
Today's notion of what constitutes a 'quality' deer is heavily influenced by the horn porn industry and I don't see that changing anytime soon. I love seeing big racks too, but the biologist in me knows that if you're selecting for big racks that's all you'll get.
To manage for herd health mimic a natural predator: take the excess young, the old, the weak and the incredibly stupid :) Let the deer that are in their prime battle it out to see who's fittest, keep the population at or below the carrying capactity of the land, and you'll end up with a very healthy herd. Not always big racks though ;) That's why I'm against any kind of point rule.
Enjoy your hunting season! I'd love to get down your way sometime and wander the Ozarks. Living in CT the last 9 years has me really missing mountains.
Post by: SEMO_HUNTER on October 14, 2010, 08:36:00 AM
Our ideas on herd management differ drastically, and I'm not saying your ideas are wrong, just different from mine.
I've got the proof that I need that what my brother and I are doing works and our herd is as healthy as any. The trophy is in the eye of the beholder and we all see it differently. I want bigger racked bucks, and I know how to manage for them. Problem is that Missouri has taken that management tool out of my hands to some extent, and that's what this discussion is really all about. I think we as hunters should be allowed to manage deer on our own property the way we think it should be, but never the less the law is the law and we all must abide by it.
The state of Texas allows ranchers to manage their deer herds for trophy class bucks, the state also has a set of guidelines for the general hunting regulations to achieve that goal. It just so happens that the ranchers and the state are on the same page when it comes to herd management and the state's regulations for legal bucks and illegal bucks reflect those interests.
Texas has some really huge racked bucks, so the proof is in the product.
We will never be able to control a deer herd completely unless they are captive behind a high fence, even then mother nature still prevails.
All we can do as hunters is help steer it in the right direction through selective harvest.
Post by: fredhill on October 19, 2010, 04:15:00 PM
Post by: SEMO_HUNTER on October 19, 2010, 05:00:00 PM
Nice job Fred! :thumbsup:
Post by: SEMO_HUNTER on November 16, 2010, 11:10:00 AM
It's about the youth seasons and their intended purpose of getting the youngsters involved in deer hunting.....which I am all for so please don't get me wrong.
I just read in the Missouri Deer Hunting magazine, flyer, newspaper whatever you want to call it, about a 14yr old teenager who killed a huge buck during the youth rifle season in October of this year.
The article tells the story about how this kid's uncle shot a decent 8pt. with a bow and the nephew bragged about how he was going to get this monster buck they had on trail camera during the youth season.....all good right?
Well, it also went on to say that he was hunting out of his tripod stand, saw some does then moved to another one of HIS STANDS and eventually shot this big buck with his .308 then immediately afterwards called his dad on his cell phone...... What? :mad:
You mean to tell me that this 14 year old young man has multiple treestands, that he obviously hunts by himself, shoots a .308 rifle which kicks harder than my own .270 and can keep his nerve about him enough to drop a huge buck.......and still needs to have special privileges to hunt the youth season??
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There's something terribly wrong with this picture!
I know that MDC makes it legal for a youth to hunt by themselves if they have the hunter education course, I know because I looked it up.
But how is that ethical or fair to the rest of us?
I've been hunting during the Regular season since the age of 12 years old , I had my hunter ed. course, and my father was always within ear shot of me so he could be there within a minute or so of hearing me shoot or holler for help.
At what point is a kid big enough to take it on their own, and no longer need to be guided along? I'd say that it's about age 13 or 14 when they can have multiple stands, dad no longer needs to babysit them, and they can handle the recoil of a .308......am I wrong?
This is one regulation I absolutely do not agree with. Kids can legally hunt on a youth tag and take full advantage of the youth seasons until age 15 , then when they turn 16 they must be hunter ed. certified and hunt the regular season.
This is also where I think the department fails us legal, ethical, hard working and hunting Joes who only wish to be treated fairly in our home state. It's not right to coax the youth along with special privileges, seasons, and methods until they reach young adulthood.
That's just not acceptable, and it's not fair to the rest of us.
OK, I'm done now........please offer your thoughts on this.
Post by: DVSHUNTER on November 25, 2010, 11:42:00 AM
Post by: SEMO_HUNTER on November 25, 2010, 12:04:00 PM
There needs to be a reasonable cut off point where the child is no longer a child, and that is the point where they don't need a guardian or a mentor to help them along in the deer woods.
When a child becomes a young man, can hang tree stands, have multiple tree stands and hunt like an adult without daddy sitting right next to him.....then it's time to hunt with the big boys and not the kids.
I think the youth season is a good thing, that's where you got me wrong. I have 4 nephews and one of them is old enough to hunt the youth season, I think that's great. He has hunted 2 years now and still needs a mentor or guardian sitting right there with him........that's what the purpose behind the whole youth season is suppose to be about. Getting kids into hunting is what it was designed to do.
I just think that that the privelage to hunt the youth season shouldn't be abused, and that's exactly what's happening in the situation that I described.
If you were using a 300 mag when you were 14 years old, I bet you were hunting by yourself also.....am I right? Did you need your daddy or a mentor sitting beside you to walk you through it?
I bet not......Point!
Post by: DVSHUNTER on November 25, 2010, 01:44:00 PM
I'm sure that many other do agree with your post. I don't. I know of at least two kids that are 13 and still need daddy, as you refer to it, to take them out, so should they not be allowed the benifit because they didn't mature as fast as the others? I think you will say they do. That is why the conservation set the age at 15. 15 regardless of skill level. regardless of ability, they only look at age. It is not feasable to grant such privelages on an indivudal basis.
Post by: SEMO_HUNTER on November 27, 2010, 12:18:00 PM
This isn't the only issue that strikes a nerve with me, and I know they can't please everybody.......so I continue to do my best to work through them.
It's convienent how they will consult the hunters/trappers/fisherman of the state on some of the issues, but other ones aren't even open for discussion. That's just not sending the right message to the people, nor is it fair to all.
I don't blame the kids, not even for one second. I didn't intend for my message to come across that way......sorry for any confusion about that.
Post by: DVSHUNTER on November 27, 2010, 12:39:00 PM
Post by: Living_waters on December 08, 2011, 01:43:00 PM
Havent seen pics of last weeks adult hunt yet but did hear they got 5 of the hogs I was after before the water pushed them out of the bow hunting areas.
http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.299138410116102.87188.160539920642619&type=3
Post by: Bowwild on March 20, 2012, 07:57:00 PM
Post by: ChuckC on March 21, 2012, 01:07:00 PM
cut and pasted from Semo Hunter:
" ***It is just not sound herd management to allow a cow horn spike with daggers 8" long and a sack of jewels on him like a pony, walk away protected to infect the rest of the herd with his inferior genetics.....*** "
So what is wrong with his genetics ? Lack of huge horns ? He sounds healthy as can be, possessed of very proper tools for reproduction, you can even make the case that he has a definate survival advantage in that he cannot be shot (under the 4 point rule). That. . accoding to training, is a good genetic trait to have and his are winning genetics.
oh wait. . we want them there big horns.
It is much more complicated than that.
ChuckC
Post by: SEMO_HUNTER on March 21, 2012, 02:39:00 PM
Just as a side note, I've been out of this conversation for a long time with good reason. That reason is that you cannot reason with everybody, it's a losing proposition and I won't be dragged into it any further. So you all feel free to throw stones at each other, I'm out of it.
Good hunting to all of you.
Post by: ChuckC on March 21, 2012, 09:19:00 PM
Lots of folks want big antlers. Awesome. I am not against that. But big antlers are not of themselves good traits. They may be indicators of good health, or not. There are a ton of other traits that are very important too.
And now here comes my biggest gripe. . so, everybody is interested in removing the "lesser" buck's genes from the pool, let that big one grow. . . yup. . and then they promptly shoot him !
WTH !
If we REALLY wanted to see big antlers, we would NOT be removing them big boys until they are in decline. Let them breed (more than once or twice) and pass on them genes.
ChuckC
Post by: TRAP on September 11, 2012, 12:20:00 AM