Trad Gang
Main Boards => Hunting Legislation & Policies => Topic started by: Bill Carlsen on October 20, 2010, 08:54:00 AM
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Guru just stopped a thread about a wolf shot in Ohio. I get why he stopped the thread but just a few days ago I read about a bowhunter in Wisconsin who was walking from his stand back to his camp and was stalked all the way there by a pack of wolves. I suspect that wolves, in general, may be a problem that many of us may have to deal with in the future so I hope that threads in the future about just the existence of wolves and their impact on hunting, deer herds, run in with hunters, etc. will not be shut off. The issues surrounding them may have little to do with being hunted or killed by bowhunters but their very existence in places like Ohio and Wisconsin can and will, I believe, have profound effects an all hunters. I, for one, would like to hear more about them because it will affect my hunting and perhaps my safety.
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Can we get an "Amen"? Amen.
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Anytime a preadator, like a wolf, loses its natural fear of humans it will become dangerous. I too read about the guy being shadowed by some wolves, sounds like a problem brewing.
God Bless,
Nathan
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Bill, I think you are spot on. I did not see the thread about the Ohio incident, but did read about the 'shadowing'. We as hunters need to educate ourselves and be part of the ecosystem, not just consumers. Safety is of primary importance and any predator that has lost a fear of humans is a danger to every person, not just hunters. I believe Leopold was right with his insight about the need of predators and how we fit in with the whole system. However, we should be able to defend ourselves from/during an attack.
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sounds like it would fit in the legislation and policies forum maybe.
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I'd bet the wolves are saying the same thing on their traditional website. d;^)
I know folks that have been stalked by big cats(here in the east) and bears. Should we do away with them too. We have almost elimninated all the big predators and now are trying to reinstate them back into nature. I am a firm believer in good managment practices so I believe in appropriate hunting seasons for all game animals and predators to keep their numbers in check.
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Originally posted by Pat B:
I'd bet the wolves are saying the same thing on their traditional website. d;^)
I know folks that have been stalked by big cats(here in the east) and bears. Should we do away with them too. We have almost elimninated all the big predators and now are trying to reinstate them back into nature. I am a firm believer in good managment practices so I believe in appropriate hunting seasons for all game animals and predators to keep their numbers in check.
Absolutely. We must remember that we are part of the ecosystem, too. We must also remember that we are part of the food chain-----we can be on the bottom of this chain just as easily as we can be on the top.
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Originally posted by Pat B:
...I know folks that have been stalked by big cats(here in the east) and bears. Should we do away with them too...I am a firm believer in good managment practices so I believe in appropriate hunting seasons for all game animals and predators to keep their numbers in check.
I agree. I also think as hunters we need to overcome our own selfishness, (myself included) We have had the woods to ourselves for the most part for a long time and un-natural numbers of deer and elk at our pleasure. So we don't want to see that change, I understand that. I for one could live with fewer elk and deer, but not because I think it will be easier to hunt them. I'm not out there because its easy anyway.
A few have suggested they will/are going to take matters into their own hands if they see wolves.
THAT, I know, is wrong.
Influence the policys and the management using the means that are within the law. Thats how a democracy works, like it or not. I've been around long enough to know that even if the result of this process is not perfect, or the results exactly what we or I would have liked, its better than any other system in the world. Engage in it and the result will be something we can all live with.
Joshua
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jhg,
That is wrong, why? Was it not wrong for the government to introduce a non-native species(Canadian Gray wolves)to our woods without even so much as asking for a vote on the matter? Last I checked, this was a democracy which we lived in. If a pack of these apex predators is threatening my family or my livestock, I will do something about it. You would, too. You can't even get the elk to bugle in central Idaho anymore, a bugle is regarded as a dinner bell to the wolves. You can't even hardly go out to the woods anymore without running into the wolves. They don't fear humans----their instinctive and natural fear of us has been erased BY HUMANS on account of handling them in the first place.
Call an outfitter who hails from country where these animals have been "reintroduced" and ask that outfitter how business is going. Call a cattle rancher or a sheep rancher. Call the local scout troop. Then, maybe you will understand the depth of this problem. The wolves were forced down our throats. If thats how democracy works, we are in big trouble.
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I realize that some of you live out in the sticks like I do, and some of you do not.
Out here we don't have nuisance animal control, we don't have a dog catcher, we don't have any policies or legislation to govern problem animals of any kind. So, we deal with it ourselves on a problem animal no matter what it is on an individual basis. If an animal, whether it be cats, dogs, coyotes, skunks, opossums, coons, or squirrels are dealt with as the need arises.
That's just how it's done.
When I read things like a bow hunter being shadowed by a pack of wolves on his way back to the cabin it makes me thankful that I don't have those kinds of issues to deal with, but the bottom line is that it should be dealt with accordingly just like we have always done here where I live.
Man has made laws to govern a broad base of people and situations in general, and not by a worst case scenario. That's a judgement call in my opinion, and legislators can't possibly imagine every situation or scenario that could happen. You must do what you have to do to protect yourself and that's the real important issue here.
You wouldn't let a burglar break into your house and pillage your belongings, then help themselves to your family while you stand by and do nothing because the law prohibits you from using lethal force would you? Absolutely not.
Why then should wolves be any different?
I don't condone hunting them down and eradicating them out of fear of the unknown, or targeting them because we are afraid of "What Might happen" because that would be wrong. There is a definite need for a hunter to protect himself that needs to be addressed by those states that have healthy populations of wolves, large cats, bears, and any other species of predators that are capable of attacking.
This is what happens when mankind tries to intervene with mother nature, and the outcome is seldom positive. It almost always leads to disaster in some form or another, and is an issue better left alone to let the natural order of things unfold as nature intended.
There is a reason why there aren't wolves in every state anymore, as they once were before we settled here in the 1800's, and we can't have it both ways. Especially the way the world is today with the population ever increasing, it's just not practical to re-introduce predators into areas and allow them to spread to areas where their contact with humans are inevitable.....that's a tragedy waiting to happen.
But try explaining that to organizations like CBD (Center for Biological Diversity) that want to see healthy populations of wolves in every state in the country, and are the main reason why wolf hunting seasons are constantly being put on hold and tied up in the courts.
Oregon Okie is probably right, this issue may be better suited for the legislation/policies forum?
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If we all ignore laws there will be no law.
Choose your poison.
And I never suggested anyone not protect their life. The rancher issue will be worked out I am sure to their satisfaction. Nobody wants ranchers to lose their livelyhoods.
J-
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I also disagree with jhg. Sometimes you do what's right for the environment. I think I know more about what's right for the environment, than a person making a law that's never been in the woods.
I'll probably never have the chance to do what's right, but will if it comes up.
Bowmania
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I see no need for them, they all turn to heated debate and end up going no where.
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Participate in the process. Or undermine it. Its your choice.
Sorry to be so blunt, but it rankles me when citizens abandon the democratic process, just because they think everyone in Washington has.
Don't fall into the trap of letting others poor behavior influence your own to that level.
Soapbox back to center.
Joshua
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Come live in Minn. and see what you think!
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I gotta preface this by saying I haven't been "shadowed" by wolves, but I have hunted in areas that are pretty thick with them. I won't get into the game management argument because the States isn't my hunting area so I think I should let you guys bash that one out yourselves.
Honestly guys you're dreaming if you think your life is in dangered by wolves, go hunting and don't worry about them.
Listen to them howl and enjoy the experience, we need predators to make wilderness wild. Without the bears, wolves and cougars we might as well be hunting in a petting zoo.
the chef
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The premise behind reintroduction of wolves would be valid if this country was a broad wilderness with endless miles for the wolves to roam and hunt. It quite simply is not that country in most places anymore. The animals they hunt are blocked and restricted with fences, roads, and endless other man made structures. The wolves experience the same thing. They simply no longer belong on the landscape that exists in most states in America.
Let's reintroduce Grizzly Bears across their entire range again too. Not the same thing? Yes it is! Think it hasn't been pushed by the enviro's? It has here in Washington state.
The wolves were shoved down the West's throat by a bunch of environmentalists and the Fed back east. They did not ask if they were wanted by the majority of the public. No one got to vote on it. They recieved a lot of negative input anyways, and then did it despite heavy protest. That is not democracy of any sort that I recognize.
The premise of democracy is to choose for yourself when a law is valid and when it is not, and to choose when and when not to obey them. That is your right as a citizen. The right of protest and civil disobedience. Just because someone wrote a law and put it in place does not make that law valid. How many new and old laws get turned over by the courts. Quite a few. Always question, always challenge with fore thought.
Wolves shadowing a hunter? Sounds like a lot of dead wolves to me.
Talk about an invasive species. Were busy trying to kill all the Nutria, Canary Reed Grass, and fish invaders in my area, while the Fed is shoving Canadian ( non-native ) wolves down our throats. That point alone proves how ridiculous their premise is. On one hand they pay millions to get rid of invasive species and on the other they import one in full violation of laws preventing just that. Seems to me the Fed needs to follow it's own rules and obey it's own laws.
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I hope this conversation stays civil...I just felt like the issue is one that hunters should have a say in and have some knowledge of. Situations involving the larger predators will vary from region to region so I do not have an axe to grind or a point of view. I just want to be educated and be aware.
This past summer at the Muzzy shoot I had a chance to share some time with Michelle and Fred Eichler and they have a lot to say about wolves and its affect on their guide business, game herds and livestock farmers. There seems to be no easy answers from where I sit but I am not too sure I want Fish and Game or legislators who only go outside to smoke making decisions about the introduction (or so called reintroduction) of such animals in my state or even nearby states. Too many unintentional consequences in populated areas (people around here are already concerned about coyotes...now wolves?) could ensue and fixing the problem could be like trying to get tooth paste back in the tube. I am not afraid in the sense that I can't take care of myself (I've got a Smith and Wesson .45) but I am afraid of mistakes made by people that we elect (the really dangerous wolves) making bad decisions. I am not for or against wolves, but can see pretty clearly that they could have a significant impact in many ways. Let's keep our eyes and ears open and keep tabs on what our Game departments and legislators have going on.
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Originally posted by jhg:
If we all ignore laws there will be no law.
Choose your poison.
And I never suggested anyone not protect their life. The rancher issue will be worked out I am sure to their satisfaction. Nobody wants ranchers to lose their livelyhoods.
J-
No, you didn't. What you did do, however, was suggest we all just bow down and accept the law simply because it is written. Where, I wonder, shall we draw the line in the sand?
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I live in Minnestoa (and hunt Wisconsin some years also) the population is getting higher and Minnesota is talking about opening up an hunting season for them next year. We also have mountain lions which the DNR in both states like to deny until one gets hit with a car and then they say "they don't reproduce here" OK - I carry the bear pepper spray and now carry a large Bowie knife when hunting. Wisconsin will let you carry a pistol, Minnesota will not (while bowhunting). Common sense when hunting these areas is to prepare for the worst. Paranoid as it may seem, seems smart to me.
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I've been debating wolves on the internet for years and the one thing I have learned is that you will not get informed by doing so. Do the research yourself because the only thing wolf threads turn into is a bunch of people trying to outshout eachother. That's why they get pulled. They are usually pointless and almost always contentious.
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I will talk regarding Canada, and up here there is no human being killed or harmed by wolves in a long time and there is a lot mere wolves up here than any where in the lower 48. I pass more than 40 days a year in the bush with wolves, black bears and grizzly bears and never had a miss adventure. they were here/there before us and deserve some respect just like any other wild life we have in our forests.
If we are contoling them, other than for live stock, it is just to give us hunters more game to hunt. And I think that that reason to control or exterminate a predator is not a good one!
Sorry if you don't agree with me, but that is my opinion on the subject.
P.s. maybe we should start shooting at each other since we are competition to each other when we hunt in the same area!!
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Question...In areas where wolves are hunted, are they becoming less and less afraid of contact with humans, as they are in places like Michigan and Wisconsin?
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Canada is vast in it's wilderness, a lot of the areas talking about wolves just are not as big. Plus the courts keep preventing the states from management. Awhile back I read where a Montana farmer said shoot ,shovel, and shutup. AMEN to that.
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I don't have a problem with wolves or bears, cougars etc. in the wild places we have left here in the lower 48. It keeps them wild. But, to prevent folks from defending their property or themselves is all kinds of wrong just as not letting the states manage them is. They must be managed. The damn courts keep interfering and it's just wrong. (nut)
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Like Calgary Chef and David Yukon state, we have a lot of wolves up here. I have been able to shoot a couple with my bow while out hunting. That was before somebody told me it was difficult. I have called them in while elk hunting, walked into them while they are hunting, tried to ambush them etc. It adds a lot of excitement to your day when you run into them. I have not been stalked as a human as far as I know, when you call them in and they recognize that the menu selection isn't what it sounded like, they leave. The time it takes for them to realize that is pretty exciting to say the least. I have no fear of being eaten by a wolf. Cougar in the same circumstance is a different story.
We have a big problem here in Alberta that started with the National Parks and the RMEF relocating elk out of the park. It was a good plan and helped the populations outside the park. They forgot to take the wolves with them at the same time. Mr wolf had his cafeteria menu changed or closed. 12 identified wolf packs feeding on 2700+ park elk. The elk herd was reduced to about 500 head and has shrunk since due to predation. Those wolves are now outside the park looking for food and they are not sticking only to Alberta and British Columbia. The biologist's stated that the wolves used to be fairly localized but have now become really mobile moving into the 2 Provinces as well as Idaho, Montana and carrying on from there.
Pretty interesting development that they never considered at the time. The elk herds near the parks that used to be good have shrunk. The habitat has shrunk some at the same time with the forest overtaking the grass slopes at a rate of approx 30% over the last 40 years. Lots of variables working together, with no easy answers.
Terry
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Talking to the Predator Biologist with the Provincial Govt, controlling them is tough. We have 170,000 licensed hunters that can shoot them on sight for 10 months of the year and the wolf numbers don't get reduced. A few get shot is about all that happens. The wolf can reproduce at a pretty good rate, doubling in size in 6 months if the food is available so removing 1 or 2 doesn't touch them. Politically, the govt will not introduce a wolf cull, they know they will get unbelievable grief from the wolf lovers and the politicians will not do that.
If people are having problems and remove a wolf, the problem is obviously keeping quiet about it.
How else do they end up in front of the court?
Terry
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Say what cha want good or bad but here in Wisconsin they have done a number on the Deer heard in the North and took our Elk heard to almost half of what it was last winter. Compound that with a nasty winter and things get sparse. I do think they should be managed like any other game animal.
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Most hunters will never spend their own hunting time where wolves live and hunt. Wolves destroy game stocks then move on. If you are hunting and wolves show up your hunt is ruined. Sometimes I hear that "hearing" wolves adds to the hunt experience. NO it does NOT. I have seen enough of them to know I don't want them. A small benefit of wolves is that they do quickly kill coyotes - canines have no tolerance for other canines. There are plenty of wolves - too many most places they live - to introduce wolves anywhere is complete stupidity - and then to protect them to the point that wolves have more "rights" than people is even more stupidity.
Elk, Moose and Deer have a natural predator - Human Hunters!
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Amen, Cory!
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I don't mind the idea of wolves, but the reality of them is pretty hard to live with. But here's another reality: those arguing for eradication don't and won't have a seat at the table.
The masses (of asses) want wolves and they don't care one whit whether we have elk to hunt or not. But they do respond to the fact that it is insane to try to manage elk and orchards and deer and alfalfa and bears and salmon and timber and not manage wolves at all.
Wolves need to be managed in the same way elk are and one of the most cost effective components of that management is sport hunting against a population objective.
As sportsmen we should all at least agree on the fact that wolves need to be managed rather than not managed. Those are our two choices. We shouldn't fight amongst ourselves over an option that doesn't exist in reality.
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I just spent a week here in the Idaho back country around Elk City looking for bears, didn't see a one, granted its a late spring this year but most of the snow was off the ground at the lower elevations and the grass was green, no bears. I talked to a couple of forest rangers and they said that they thought the wolves were killing the bears! I do know that I only saw a couple of sets of elk tracks and both of them had wolf tracks to go with them. Its driven a lot of the outfitters out of business. I ran into a couple of turkey hunters on the same trip just west of Elk City and that morning they inadvertanly called in a wolf pack while turkey hunting and had quite a hairy few minutes!