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Main Boards => Hunting Legislation & Policies => Topic started by: bjansen on April 17, 2012, 09:49:00 PM
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Bowhunters,
Illinois HB 4819 is a bill that unanimously passed the house on 3/29/12 and has moved to Senate. This bill removes the crossbow limiting language which currently exists in the Illinois Wildlife Code (the current language limits the use of a crossbow to those over 62 and those that are handicapped), and thus the passing of this bill will allow crossbows in the IL open archery season.
The bill was scheduled for a first reading at the Senate today and picked up a Senate Sponsor.
Please contact your IL senator or the Senate sponsor and express your point of view. A link to the bill is below - Thanks for your help.
http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/billstatus.asp?DocNum=4819&GAID=11&GA=97&DocTypeID=HB&LegID=64694&SessionID=84
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This is just a suggestion, so take it as only that.
Keep the words "unanimously passed the house" in the front of your mind.
As someone from Michigan who went thru the whole battle a few years back, everyone must understand that xbows being in "regular archery seasons" is going to happen in all the populated, big deer states east of the Mississippi. If not now, it will happen over the next decade.
Fighting xbows in the eastern states is like fighting technology in your daily life.
All of these states are facing the clear trend of fewer hunters, older hunters and large deer herds that could explode if we can't kill enough deer.
As the baby boomers all start getting to the "drop out of the sport due to physical problems stage" in the next decade, all states will scramble to retain any and all deer hunters.
But that doesn't mean all is a lost cause for you in Illinois.
In Michigan, the idea a few years back was to make a final, all or nothing last stand and the accept nothing but no xbows in the regular season.
The result? Michigan bowhunters got nothing and xbows victory was total and we got nothing extra to show for it.
In hindsight, what Michigan bowhunters should have done is said "OK, we'll give in on xbows in bow season, but we want to add the full months of September and January to the season, thus adding 2 full months of bow season".
The reality is, on average, the xbow hunters aren't going to be as serious as traditional bowhunters. So if the xbow guys go out a few times in October-early November, you still pick up all of September and January to have basically to yourselves.
My point is, xbows are coming to Illinois. You can cross your arms and say "hell no!" and get nothing in the end or you can think of ways to get something of value from the situation.
Again, keep in mind the tsunami of "unanimously passed the house".
But act fast, before it's too late. The bowhunter groups should scramble to think of things to get in a "compromise", if there's even time for it now. They have little leverage time left, if your window of opportunity hasn't already closed.
That's merely my suggestion.
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Thanks for the feedback,
The tsunami of "Unanimously passed the house" was a result of hiding the bill in an undescriptive name and synopsis. It was unclear what the bill was and it was a tactic, I believe, used to moved the bill very fast without notice.
Short Description: WILDLIFE-TECH'
Synopsis As Introduced: Amends the Wildlife Code. Makes a technical change in a Section concerning the short title.
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Good luck. Indiana lost this battle too. They got their foot in the door by being first included in our late archery season. It took a few years but this coming season they will be able to hunt with them during the entire archery season.
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No one is coming out and saying "I am a crossbow hunter". The manufacturers and the ATA (Archery Trade Association) have pushed for this. They are the ones who stand to profit from it. They are targeting the firearms hunters who wish to take advantage of the early archery seasons across the country, rather than have a natural progression of superior hunting implements.
They can say whatever they want about dwindling hunters' numbers, deer herd increases, and loss of state revenues. But the reality is this, here in NY, archery license sales have been on a steady increase for over 5 years now, with an increase of close to 20%. Second, we can only guess at the state of the deer herd, because our DEC has given the same number of deer, 1,000,000, for over a decade. Some areas are loaded, others scarce. Lastly, a new license would bring in money as well as some Pittman-Robinson excise tax dollars, but that's only if a new license is created.
The ultimate plan is to decimate the archery seasons with full crossbow inclusion thinking that it is the second coming. It is not. Look at Ohio, where the crossbow has been legal in the archery season for decades. Crossbows kills outnumber bow kills 3 to 2. And their firearms season is anywhere from 6-10 days. Try explaining that to a firearms hunter who has had 4 weeks to hunt, paid a premium for a license, and due to work and family can only squeeze out a weekend or two. This train must be derailed.
There are hundreds of YouTube videos showing the power and accuracy of the modern crossbow. It simply is not a bow and not primitive in any way. Regardless of how advanced a compound is, their is still no comparison. Some perform better than most rifles at 100 yards!
Good luck. I feel your pain.
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It doesn't surprise me this bill was "hidden". The sad thing is, at least in my part of the state, a lot of guys just use a rifle anyway. Doesn't matter what season it is. I personally know of one fellow that freely admits to having killed over a dozen deer. All taken illegally simply because he enjoys killing them.
While I appreciate and encourage the protection of our natural resources and being good stewards of the blessings God has given us it seems here in Illinois there is no moderation and thought put into laws.
This law will pass simply because people aren't aware of it, and of those that are there aren't enough to make a difference.
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Senator Forby has p[icked up this bill in the senate, but it is not a done deal. Google will get you to his website and you can leave him a message there. This bill has been very poorly handled from the start. If you want to help, join the UBI, IBS and IFOR. Good ole boy politics is alive and well in IL and these groups are working to keep things above board. If just a small percentage of IL bowhunters would send a message, this would go away quickly.
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Excellent point Rick. The fact is that there are plenty of us to make a difference and these bills have historically went away with a few loud voices.
The bill will be going read during a committee hearing on Tueday May 1. Thus calls to Forby's office on Monday & Tues morning as well as online opinion submittal on the day the bill will be called is the plan of action.
Thanks everyone.
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I'm on it Rick. Thank you for the link.
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Fight it hard.....same thing happened to us in NC and many who I thought would help just curled up and said nothing.....next thing you know , boom, crossguns in the archery season..... :dunno:
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The bill was called at the Committee today and did not pass. Several of us from IL sportsmans groups attended and voiced our opposition to the bill. Thank you to everyone who helped through this process. I will say there are several key individuals in our state who put their heart and soul into issues like this and they make a big difference. As we know the issue will come up again, please now consider now what you can do to help next time. Phone calls and letters help very much along with facts that support our arguements and please don't think it is over immediately when a key issue like this comes up. We have seen time and time again that committees and legislators will listen to well reasoned judgement supported by facts.
Thanks everyone
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Eventually it's going to pass. Consider yourselves lucky that you now can coordinate a god strategy for getting someone when they do get made legal.
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To be plain and blunt here, I have a hard time saying no to crossbow hunters when the compound hunters are shooting as far and as fast in many cases as they are. Seems a bit hard to differentiate between the two to me. The only differentiation that I can make is that a compound requires more practice to be proficient but how do you define that in a law?
The press is on here in NY, not sure if it will happen but I'm guessing that it will. My hope is that there would be the opportunity to block out some weeks at the beginning and the end for non-mechanical archery, i.e. traditional if that day ever comes. I agree with all though, we need to be active in making sure that we do all that we can to ensure the future of archery.
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David, compounds are certaintly advanced and capable of longer ranges than what they used to be...but there is still a fair gap between a crossbow and that of a compound, additionally I do think that gap will get larger as crossbows continue to advance as they do not have some of the natural limitations of a hand held, hand drawn device. I appreciate your insight.
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Benoit,
That's why eventually xbows will pass everywhere. Just look at the 2012 models of all the new compounds and all the stuff that goes with them. Have you seen the Cabela's "archery" catalogs? The difference between xbows and compounds now is almost nill. Both require a little movement, the compound shooter draws and holds for a minute before squeezing a rifle trigger and the xbow shooter must raise the stock to his cheek before squeezing a rifle trigger. In reality, there's hardly any difference anymore.
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One thing is for sure, if we let apathy overcome our distaste for the crossbow in archery season, the crossbow will come. However, if we refuse to roll over and instead write our legislators, the crossbow can be kept out.
Thanks to the efforts of bjansen and others, this bill as written was stopped in committee yesterday. There aren't that many people trying to cram the xbow into the archery seasons; it just takes us standing up to stop it.
It starts by joining and supporting your state bowhunting organization. :readit:
Rick Stillman
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I used to own a sporting goods store in Michigan.
The reality is, the majority of compound shooters are totally cool with xbows and have no problem with them. Xbows are coming.
It's only a minority of compound shooters and the traditional shooters that aren't fans. And sadly, traditional shooters are a very small minority. A vocal minority, but still small compared to the decked out, electrified majority that send arrows at deer who consider themselves "bowhunters".
Fight the good fight, but in the end, the tsunami of majority approval, aging hunters, large deer herds, legislators looking to keep hunter numbers up and cash strapped DNR's will win out.
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The reality is that the majority of IL bowhunters and IL firearm hunters have a problem with crossbow inclusion in archery season / firearm season in our state. Maybe your state is different Mojo, but the IL hunter survey data indicates sportsman are not cool with them.
Thanks
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Look, I'm not trying to defend xbows in any way. I'm merely suggesting that you prepare to at least get some lemonaid from the coming lemons. I'm just saying what happened in Michigan and other states and it's happening to you folks too, right before our eyes. You may not see it because you're so close to it. But having gone thru it, Illinois traditional bowhunters are getting swept into the same trap.
It's like watching the film of an old game we lost over and over.
In Michigan, the majority of input thru emails, phone calls and public speaking at meetings to MDNR, the NRC and to legislators was that hunters, especially older hunters, liked the idea of the xbow option. Not a big majority, but a slight majority is still a majority.
The moral highground of "an xbow is not a bow" is irrelevant to the debate. We tried that here in Michigan too.
State DNR's and legislatures will only look at if a regulation change negatively impacts the resource in a noticable way. It they believe there's no downside to the resource to a change, they'll make it, especially if it increases participation.
So far, the only stance we have is "I don't like xbows, I don't want xbow hunters in bow season, an xbow isn't a bow, etc, etc".
All I'm saying is, while those arguments are noble and totally true, it's running off in the wrong direction of the real debate.
All the states that have so far legalized them in recent years have the same reasons, increasing opportunity in the face of falling and aging deer hunter number trends.
And wait until a couple CWD deer show up in northern Illinois, which they eventually will. Then look for legislators to run to anything that'll kill more deer. You'll see calls for legal baiting and rifles, when that happens. Bet on it.
I'm done commenting on this because I've already made my suggestion, so take it for what it is. At least think about it.
Your situation is like watching our trainwreck again, in slow motion. Many here in Michigan had your same position. It's all or nothing...and we got nothing. And it's happened over and over in other states.
If the position is that "nobody wants xbows", well then there should be nothing to fear, right? Because if nobody wanted them, nobody would buy them. The truth is, when xbows get legalized, there's going to be a boom of xbow sales and most will be guys already using decked out compounds.
Again, just my suggestion, figure out what additional things you want for deer seasons and be prepared to "head them off at the pass" for the next time this comes up, and then the next-next time.
Here's one of the blue prints state DNR's use for recruitment and retention. Everyone should read it...
http://www.responsivemanagement.com/download/reports/AMOdist.pdf
Go ahead and fight the good fight and stand fast if you feel you must. All I'm saying is, the exact same thing happened here in Michigan and those who etched a line in the sand with their swords and said no xbow shall cross this line are still trying to figure out how they got destroyed and got virtually nothing from negotiations with the DNR or NRC.
Just my suggestion, realize that eventually xbows are coming to Illinois. It may not be this year or two years from now, but in 5-7 years, you'll have them.
I'd make a long list of things you'd like to see changed in Illinois, then as a group approach the DNR or legislature and say "ok, we'll accept xbows, but here's 20 changes we want made and we want an additional 2 months of bow season". Then at least you may get those things. Otherwise, just like all the other states, you'll get nothing and xbows will still be legal, eventually.
Anyhow, that's just my post-game recap of a loss here. Do whatever you feel you need to do and best of luck!
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Mojostick, I do indeed appreciate your insight and certainly considering those things as well as the sportsman data we have. Don't take my post the wrong way as I understand we are on the same page here and I understand your point on having alternative plans and compromised solutions to a battle that will not end anytime soon.
Thanks
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That's cool, no problems whatsoever. We're just having a chat online. I think it's good to think of all sides of the coin.
I just hate to see Illinois traditonal bowhunters think they can go in mainly armed with the defense of "but a xbow isn't a bow", only to get steamrolled by the waiting tanks.
Unfortunately, the trend in demographics and culture makes the fight a losing cause, long term.
In my opinion, the best you can hope for is to mitigate the damage and hopefully gain something somewhere else, in return.
Maybe ask for a special "traditional bow only" season in September?
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Mojostick - Definitely interesting how the study looks at the demographics and paints a bleak recruiting picture for archery outside of current gun hunters. Hmmm. Logical step, recruit from gun hunters by introducing a bow / gun, i.e. the crossbow into the hunting picture. Thankfully in NY they had a trial x-bow season but they ran it during the gun season. I'm guessing they didn't have too much interest. I may be wrong though.
It really is a money thing as much as we may not like it. You almost need a lobby willing to pay people to vote your way.
Brad - thanks for bringing this up and sharing what is going on in your state. I'll be watching to see how things go for you all.
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Actually, much of the research shows that archery deer hunting is one of the few aspects of hunting that's holding it's own.
In a way, that's the curse. Archery is keeping hunters active in the sport while firearms deer and especially small game hunting is dropping much faster.
So, states are looking at how to keep more hunters in the part of the sport that has the best retention, and that's archery hunting.
And just as states are looking to firearms only hunters to become archery hunters, since "new hunters" really aren't coming into the sport, that's why I contend that traditional archery needs to look towards existing compound shooters to grow traditional ranks, not "new archers". There's 1,000,000's of compound shooters in the USA and I'm a former compound shooter myself. I say it's a mistake to use terms like training wheels, etc when talking about compound shooters. There's 10,000's of great hunters who happen to use a compound. What we somehow need is more outreach to compound shooters who are bored with compounds and traditional hunters should never mock compound hunters themselves. I think there's a large pool of current compound shooters who'd love to try traditional bows, but they just don't know where to begin. Just my opinion.
If you want to see many of the studies that state DNR's look at when making decisions, go here. There's a TON of info here...
http://www.responsivemanagement.com/huntingreports.php
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Where's the evidence that crossbows increase license sales? All you have is gun hunters using crossbows and calling themselves bowhunters. They're simply looking for a different opportunity and they see a crossbow as a way to enter the archery season without learning the traditions of archery. The whole notion that crossbows should be lumped in with archery is a weak leg to stand on from my perspective. The idea completely disregards the fact that the guys who work and established the archery seasons worked hard to get what we have today. Against gun hunters who said archery was not effective. The fact is that many compound shooters also discredit traditional archery tackle as ineffective. These ideas are as bad as the gun hunters who think any bow is a bad bow because it is not an effective killing machine. Back to the crossbow - it doesn't increase license sales unless you can buy a bow and a rifle tag (depending on your state system of course) each season. Out here you can buy one but not both. So there is no sales increase at all. I read some articles in recent months that also indicated in states where users could purchase both, after enacted the crossbow addition did not amount to any extra revenue. The big benefit here is to industry making new crossbows, not to hunters. There is no additional opportunity with the crossbow. Archers should mainly be focused on increasing opportunity and that is why they often see the crossbow as an annoying or threatful proposition. It cheapens the challenge of bowhunting by removing all the mystery of the hunt. And it's the crossbow proponents trying to ride on top of the benefits of longer archery seasons and more opportunity after compound shooters and traditionalists established what we have today after generations of work.
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"State DNR's and legislatures will only look at if a regulation change negatively impacts the resource in a noticable way. It they believe there's no downside to the resource to a change, they'll make it, especially if it increases participation."
Speak for your state. Out here that is not always true, we have swayed such decisions with critical and concise feedback just this year...
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That could well be, meaning out west is different than east of the Mississippi. I'm speaking of heavily hunted and heavily populated area's. For example, we have 650,000 firearms hunters out on opening day and about 350,000 bowhunters, in just our state.
The reason for xbow passage here was there was no evidence presented that xbows would have much different impact and other states in the area showed about the same.
In states like Michigan, it's long firearms/muzzleloader seasons that pound the deer. No archery tackle, not even laser guided xbows can compete with 600,000 plus guys armed with 7mm mags and 200 yard slug guns and ML's.
Anyhow, back to not getting sucked into the debate much further. Take any suggestions as just that and consider them all.
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David, I am Al Bottari. I am the 2nd VP and the Crossbow Committee Chairman for ew York Bowhunters, Inc. I have been fighting this a really long time. The truth is, the pressure is coming right from your neck of the woods. The Erie, Niagara area is where all of this stems from.
Certain outdoor writers from that part of the State have been seduced by the crossbow manufacturers. For 20 years they have been promising them NYS on a platter.
In 2010, a Bill was passed into law which allowed for crossbows to be used during the Regular (Firearms) season. So, you would think that after 20 years of crying, and claiming that there is this huge support base for crossbows, that the woods would have been filled with them. Well, according to the DEC harvest totals, during the 2011 hunting season, only 491 deer were killed with a crossbow. Less than 1/2 of 1% of the entire harvest total. So where is this support for it?
The modern crossbows that are being marketed are no where near in comparison to a compound. They all have the capacity to shoot extremely accurate to 100 yards. Just go to YouTube and type in "100 yard crossbow shot". You will be there for weeks watching the thousands of videos. The claim as a short distance implement is a flat out lie. Why is every crossbow sold with a scope? The averagr bowkill in NYS is 12 yards, with the Bowhunter Safety Program from the DEC stressing to take shots at 15 yards or less. Yet, this can hit a bullseye at 100 yards on the first pull of the trigger.
On the Top Shot program 3 seasons ago, there was an archery episode. All of the marksmen competing had to shoot a longbow and a crossbow. Well, with the longbow, they pretty much couldn't hit the ocean standing on the beach. But, when they picked up the crossbow, instant bullseyes. The "expert" who tutored them was Bill Troubridge, the owner of Excalibur Crossbows. And I quote, "The hardest thing about using a crossbow, is learning how to cock it." Well, Parker Crossbows has even solved that. Last year they introduced their Concorde model. This crossbow utilizes a Co2 cartidge, that when activated with a push button, it automatically can cock or uncock the crossbow. So now, even the hardest element of its' use has been addressed.
As far as new hunters being introduced, another lie. The market is for firearms hunters to purchase and use an implement that they are familiar with during the archery seasons. Studies have shown a ZERO increase in new hunters, but a crossover ratio of 35% and 39% in the States where the studies were conducted, Ohio and Arkansas.
It simply is not a bow and it compromises the integrity of the archery season and experience. Bowhunting is challenging. Diligent practice is needed, a committment is needed to become nd stay proficient at it. Not so with a crossbow.
In Albany last month, there was a faction present from a newly formed crossbow group. One attending said to a NYB Board member that he needs the crossbow because he has 3 kids and HE doesn't have the time to practice and to teach them how to shoot a bow. Right from the horses mouth, the truth came out.
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"As far as new hunters being introduced, another lie. The market is for firearms hunters to purchase and use an implement that they are familiar with during the archery seasons. Studies have shown a ZERO increase in new hunters, but a crossover ratio of 35% and 39% in the States where the studies were conducted, Ohio and Arkansas."
I doubt the data that is available from states like AR and OH is rich enough to determine if the inclusion of crossbows resulted in the recruitment of zero new hunters. I'd be interested in seeing data that indicates that direct correlation.
As far as marketing and trying to attract existing firearms deer hunters to bowhunting with the crossbow that is just the status quo.
Take a look at the AMO study that Damian Duda /Bissell did in Mojostick's earlier post. They found that more than 82% of bowhunters were first firearms hunters before they took up bowhunting.
It's no surprise that the converts to bowhunting because of crossbow inclusion are coming from the ranks of firearms deer hunters.
This conversion is what has fueled the growth in bowhunting since the 1980's.
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Crossbow proponents want a weapon that is as close to a rifle as possible, and to use that weapon in the archery season because they want to spend more time in the field because they like opportunity. The problem is that the crossbow is very much like a gun (more so than most other archery tackle which is legal) and in states where bowhunting seasons are already getting shorter, it is a real bad idea to embrace the crossbow because a bunch of gun hunters are too lazy to pick up a bow and learn how to use it. There are studies which indicate that people bow hunt for the challenge. Removing the challenge will come at a cost.
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The study that I cited was the Tonkovich (sp) study. It was a joint venture between Ohio and Arkansas. Which btw, those two states have had the crossbow for longer than almost any other.
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Al:
I know the study well. It was published as part of the proceedings from the first Bowhunting Summit.
Mike Tonkovich is part of the Midwest Association of FIsh and Wildlife Agencies Recruitment and Retention Committee. I chaired that committee this past year.
I have talked to him numerous times about what conclusions can or can not be made from his states data related to crossbows.
The claim that there is zero increase in new hunters as a result of crossbow inclusion cannot be determined by simply looking at harvest data or license sales data. This is what is available from both Arkansas and Ohio.
You would need to mine that data further, typically by surveying crossbow users, to get at the value or lack of value crossbows may or may not have as a tool in hunter recruitment or retention.
Thanks for the good discussion.
Jay
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Illinois being Illinois and Gov Quinn being himself I have to believe it all comes down to dollar signs. The state is miserably broke and he's running out of options on how to raise revenue.
We buy separate tags for archery season and gun season. There are far more gun hunters than there are bow hunters. So if they can get gun hunters to buy extra tags by allowing xbows then they are going to do it. No matter what the people really have to say about it. They don't care about tradition, conservation, the deer herd, or anything except gettIng more money ultimately for themselves.
Just my thoughts. As Chicago goes so does the state.…
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I own a xbow and have 3 stickbows. Love shooting stickbows.
I support xbows as well. I see xbows in all archery seasons. no big deal.
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Looks like it passed, from what I gather they can't be used until after the first gun season though. Not sure if it goes into effect this year or next though. Either way I don't like it at all.
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I will apologize upfront for not reading the entire thread. Michigan adopted a cross gun season that runs right along the regular archery season. As far as my circle and where I live most people that have tried them where shunned an teased enough that most went back up for sale and the wheelies bows came back out. The folks with physical impairments continue hunting with them as they have for years up here. I was mad at first because I thought I should be, not anymore. Its not such a big deal as I had expected. The local buck pools and such all had "bow" killed critters with a VERY few xgun critters in pics. Im sure its a geographical thing as well.
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They will take down every state... they do not care and have been bragging about victories on their forums. They have momentum, they have backers, and they are going to win. Because in the end the $$$ always wins... as do "Easy Buttons", in this day and age.
However, I am hopeful that in a few years... maybe many, that someone will come to their senses and fix the problem we have created. My suggestion... push for a single season, single weapon tag. That should put an end to the crossovers.
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Yes money is what wins out , however, we as a hunting community can turn the tide by our attitude towards crossbows. Now,they have a place for the disabled hunters and seniors who can't shoot a regualar bow. For the young able body hunter who wants to use one because they do not want to practice or master a trad bow or compound bow then in my opinion should not get the respect from others in the archery world. I know that I am going to get the typical argument about how we shouldn't fight wwithin our community but I don't buy it. Crossbows for able body hunters is not archery and they should be used during gun season, see how many use them during that time, very few, or give them a special season just like firearm season. For the last few years everytime you turned on a hunting show they had more and more crossbow hunts so you knew it was a matter of time, but it's funny how public opinion can change attitudes. jmo
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I had this discussion with my good friend who owns a large archery shop. My idea was to let the crossbow hunters buy over the counter tags and let them hunt all the gun seasons. That would give them quite a few days to hunt if they wish. It won't be long before they will be allowed to hunt the entire bow season . With our access problem, Shawnee is going to fill up pretty quick.
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However, I am hopeful that in a few years... maybe many, that someone will come to their senses and fix the problem we have created. My suggestion... push for a single season, single weapon tag. That should put an end to the crossovers. [/QB]
It is already in the works here in Illinois. Most sportsman just can't see the forest for the trees. Sometime back somebody in the DNR said the goal was 1970's deer numbers. We are on our way with the slaughter house rules that are currently SOP. That's a one tag season. Pick your poison.
When the cross overs can only buy one tag...it will be the easiest method possible. Crossguns will never go away...but they will never be given any respect.
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Just got this today:
Thank you for contacting me with your concerns about crossbow hunting.
I believe that we ultimately reached a compromise that should satisfy most people. While I understand your concerns about crossbow hunting, I also have learned that there are some able-bodied people who cannot easily operate a traditional bow, but who are interested in bow hunting. To accommodate their needs while still protecting your right to practice traditional bow hunting, we established a short cross-bow hunting season that runs from the second Monday after Thanksgiving to the end of bow-hunting season. If you find that crossbow hunters are interfering with your hunting experience, please let me know, as we could revisit this legislation in the future.
Please visit my website, www.SenatorForby.com, (http://www.SenatorForby.com,) to learn more about my work on your behalf. Feel free to contact me again if you have any additional questions or concerns.
Sincerely,
Senator Gary Forby
59th District – Illinois
District Office:
903 W. Washington, Suite 5
Benton, IL 62812
Email Senator Forby
Office: (618) 439-2504
Fax: (618) 438-3704
Capitol Office:
537 Capitol Building
Springfield, IL 62706
Office: (217) 782-5509
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Interesting....In speaking with the Senators during the spring session, they are using the traditional bow term interchangeably with compounds, recurves and longbows. When they say "traditional bows" or "traditional hunting", they really mean non-crossbow archery hunting.
The "compromise" was not accepted by all organizations and I believe this legislation will be used as another stepping stone for a full inclusion bill next year.
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I just received the EXACT same message from Sen. Forby as Bucksrack7, obviously a generic reply to all those who contacted him in opposition to the crossgun bill. And in that reply he gives his reasoning for the bill. Quote: While I understand your concerns about crossbow hunting, I also have learned that there are some able-bodied people who cannot easily operate a traditional bow, but who are interested in bow hunting. :Unquote, note the words able-bodied, his reasoning for the bill was one of my major arguments against it.
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able bodied but crappy shots, lol... no such thing as an able bodied person not being able to operate a compound bow with any sort of practice. Now a 'no wheels' bow, sure, I can understand that.
In this case able bodied = too dang lazy to practice.
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people all worked up how other people choose to participate in a recreational activity. funny really
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Imagine yourself flyfishing, but the recent reg changes allowed for the use gill nets. Here you are, enjoying the integrity of flyfishing, but just a few hundred yards away, there are a bunch of guys dragging a net that spans the breadth of the stream. It's still called fishing right?
That is the basic difference. It compromises the integrity of the archery season. You simply cannot compare a device that requires little or no learned skill to master, to one that requires constant practice to remain proficient at.
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Peeps...
You all have valid points. Wheel shooters can pretend six ways to Sunday that they are bowhunting, they are not. There is nothing we can do about it. And guess what...most of the non hunting public knows they arn't "bowhunting". It's even easier to convey with crossbows. Use that to your advantage, I have and it has worked out just fine.
The funnest part of all of this is listening to a wheel shooter/crossgunner tell a stick shooter what is and isn't a "bow".
I laugh and laugh...quietly, to myself...as to not damage or demoralize their self esteem.
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Let me first be clear that I am not condoning xbows.
A few years ago when I was looking into returning to trad archery I was looking around and doing research when I came upon a boyer (who shall remain nameless) who strictly made self bows and flat bows. His work was exquisite! However, in his comments section he mentioned that those whom use laminate bows were not using true trad gear and only fooling themselves if they thought so.
Shortly after joining the site I noticed a thread about a member making bone and flint heads for his self made bow and self made arrows. After several positive comments towards his craftsmanship (they looked awesome!) he made that statement that in his opinion using only bone or stone tips was the only true way to be a trad hunter and nobody called his bluff on it because he is entitled to his opinion.
In the early conservation days most rifle hunters were using old lever guns, single shots and a few bolt actions. Things like telescopic sights were considered unsporting at best and sacrilegious by many. PA still requires flintlock during the muzzle loader season. But if you trace the history of weapons, particularly firearms, used by hunters you will find they are a few years behind what most of the troops are carrying and used in combat. It happened with the single shot to the lever-action, then bolts guns and now black rifles.
Similarly, when wheel bows were first introduced there were cries from the archery world that the sky was falling, and in some ways it did. Many are not able to effectively shooting trad bows, either by lack of patience or practice time or simple can't get down the instinctive concepts. Others are not satisfied with what they view as iffy performance. Hence the invention of laminate bows and even the recurve. They want that extra 5, 10 or 20 yards range.
I'm not saying go out and buy you an x-bow, or that you must allow them on your lease. What I am saying is that as long as your against something because it's not "traditional", be certain you are also. There are trad hunters that believe the only pure form of trad archery is a flat or self bow shooting wood arrows with a natural broad head.
There are states clamoring to restrict or ban black rifles for hunting anything bigger than a coyote, some even at all.
We're forgetting something majorly important here: we are all hunters, it's a big tent with many styles and not everyone is into the same style. We're in a time now that we are not recruiting enough new hunters of any creed to the woods. If we begin fighting within ourselves we will lose more, and those that never get into the woods at all won't decide to pick up a bow, or maybe a handgun or a smoke pole. Personally, while I find my longbow the most rewarding I still I have no intention of selling any of my hunting rifles, black powder rifles or my wheel bow because they all have a time and place. I've played with a crossbow, it's not nearly as easy as it's made out to be. It still requires practice and patience. That said I also don't plan on buying one either!
I have family that refuse to use archery of any kind because they are afraid of a poor shot leading to an injured animal suffering needlessly. Does that make them wrong?
My point is we need more hunters and when we fight to stop hunting we do the anti's job for them: effectively stopping hunting.
Sorry for the rant.
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Well...
As I understand it there are now four classifications of "archery".
1. Primitive: stone points, river cane shafts, wrapped feather, self bows etc.
2. Traditional: Laminated straight or recurve limbs, wood, carbon, aluminum shafting, feathers or vanes, factory glue and store bought stuff.
3. Modern: compound thingys and all the associated bolt on stuff that remove any real strength, skill or dedication to master.
4. Crossbows: horizontal compound thingys with locking triggers and all the above mentioned do-dads plus the luxory of telescopic and laser sites. True "archery" equipment brought about by the evolution of the compound thingy. 8^)
I think required skill sets for "success" for each catagory are self evident.
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If nobody thinks this crossbow thing ain't takin off, the local bow shop is sellin them as fast as they can put them together. Mostly to guys who have never shot a bow before.
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Originally posted by doowop:
If nobody thinks this crossbow thing ain't takin off, the local bow shop is sellin them as fast as they can put them together. Mostly to guys who have never shot a bow before.
Sounds a lot like the way interest in bowhunting with a compound bow took off a few decades back.
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we are not increasing hunters in 99% of the crossbow situations...we are getting firearm hunters that want to increase how long they can hunt with minimal effort...that is not driving up license sales or bringing in archers that would otherwise never hunt.
I have not met one single crossbow hunter that told me they never hunted before in their life until the draw and beauty of the crossbow captivated them to pick it up and start hunting during bow seasons in earnest!
Every single one was either a compound guy and it is treated like anything else they buy and shoot that is popular and fun...could care less about bowhunting as they already shoot compound...this is to just have fun. The other type is the guy that hunts with shotgun or rifle.....and wants a couple more weeks of hunting but does not want to practice and put the effort in a regular bow....so he picks one up, sights it in, and the next evening is in the tree or blind.
if they have truly NEVER hunted before and the lure of the bolt and crossbow drew them in...I dont want them out there with that thing anyhow....safety, animal anatomy for shot placement, taking care of animal after shot...all those things you dont figure out overnight reading the owners manual.
either way....keep them in firearms seasons where they belong.....
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There are those that can...and those that can't. Technology is ALL about dumbing a skill set down to the lowest common denominator. This typically leads to more revenue.
There is an old saying in business, "cater to the masses, eat with the classes".
What I find humorus is that the wheel shooters think crossbows arn't bows!
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Can anyone direct me to a P&Y scorer in northern IL?
Thanks.
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I would suggest to try and work with those who want to pass the xbow bill instead of butting heads with them throughout the process. As Mojostik said, its going to pass so get use to the idea of seeing them out there but work hand in hand with those trying to pass it to get something for the trad guys as well. In the end we are all on the same team when it comes to battleing the anti hunters and HSUS etc. You might not like it but as posted above its coming. Good luck.