Trad Gang
Main Boards => Hunting Legislation & Policies => Topic started by: Zradix on February 22, 2013, 12:42:00 PM
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Press Release
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Feb. 19, 2013
Contact: Brent Rudolph, 517-641-4903; Brian Frawley, 517-241-4169; or
Ed Golder, 517-335-3014
Growing number of Michigan deer hunters give crossbows a try
crossbow hunter afield in tree stand
Although the overall number of hunters in Michigan has been on a slight decline, the Department of Natural Resources reports that a recent deer hunter survey shows growth in one method of deer hunting – crossbows.
In the past, only hunters with disabilities had the option to hunt with a crossbow. Beginning in 2009, crossbows were allowed in most areas of Michigan during the archery deer season in an attempt to expand hunting opportunities, retain existing hunters and recruit new hunters. Crossbow hunters were required to obtain a free crossbow stamp to determine the number of hunters who took advantage of the new method.
In 2009, the opportunity to use a crossbow was extended only to hunters 50 years of age or older in the Upper Peninsula and northern Lower Peninsula, while hunters of any age could use crossbows in the southern Lower Peninsula. In 2010 the age restriction was eliminated statewide.
The archery deer season runs statewide on public and private land and is divided into early and late season segments (Oct. 1 through Nov. 14 and Dec. 1 through Jan. 1). In the Upper Peninsula, crossbows are only allowed to be used in the early archery season.
“We have discovered that in 2011, 25 percent of the crossbow users had not hunted in the archery season in previous years,” said DNR Deer and Elk Program Leader Brent Rudolph. “These hunters were newly recruited or drawn back to the sport of archery hunting.”
The opinion survey also revealed that hunting with a crossbow met most or all of the archers’ expectations, and nearly all crossbow hunters planned to use crossbows again in the future.
The number of hunters who obtained the free crossbow stamp by year is:
2009 - 45,692
2010 - 64,340
2011 - 74,120
2012 - 88,565
Although the expanded opportunity increased the number of archery hunters, the amount of deer harvested overall during the archery season did not increase each year. Harvest of deer over all seasons combined declined or was similar to previous years.
“With close to 800,000 hunters in Michigan annually, we know deer hunting is a strong tradition held by many,” said DNR Wildlife Division Chief Russ Mason. “The expanded crossbow regulations met all the expectations we hoped for. Our primary goal is to do a good job managing the deer herd, and if new hunting opportunities can also be made, that’s a good thing.”
To view the entire Crossbow Deer Hunter Survey report, go to www.michigan.gov/hunting (http://www.michigan.gov/hunting) and click on Wildlife Surveys and Reports in the left-hand navigation bar.
Hunters are reminded to fill out their 2012 deer harvest survey by going online to https://secure1.state.mi.us/deersurvey/.
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A few other interesting tidbits from the report.
"About 74 ± 2% of the hunters (71,305 ± 2,945) using a crossbow in 2011 (excluding hunters having a crossbow permit) had hunted in the archery season during one of the three years prior to authorization of crossbows (i.e., 2006-2008).".
"In addition, about 19 ± 2% (18,731 ± 2,194) of the hunters using a crossbow in 2011 had hunted with firearms only prior to the authorization of crossbows."
"The average age of those using crossbows probably remained higher after 2009 because older hunters were more likely to have some limitations that prevented them from using other types of bows."
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I dont know if I would frame it GOOD or BAD
lots of people want a choice, and there is nothing wrong with using a xbow, or a compound, or a traditional bow.
I just purchased a Wallace Mentor, and I have a Fox High Sierra on order.
likely will add a Trinity Rogue Longbow
additionally have 2 other custom recurves, and a custom longbow
and, have 3 high end compounds and an Excalibur Xbow
enjoy them all-and hunt with them all.
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Good or Bad: hard to see any difference or much difference in a modern compound crossbow and a modern compound bow? Those statistics show that the crossbow allows/creates opportunity for people to hunt during bow season without using a bow - can't see an upside to that. It does look like at this point some of those numbers are just people moving around. Hunter numbers dropping is a cultural and access issue. A guy switching from rifle or compound to compound crossbow is just more exploitation and degradation of archery only seasons.
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The problem with crossbows in Michigan are the numbers are WRONG!. Skewed, misrepresented, mistaken, or falsely reported....
Crossbows literally took over in Michigan. My local archery league that was held every winter DIED because of how everyone began hunting with crossbows. These are SERIOUS hunters who used to shoot their bows to keep skills honed for hunting as well as fun. A scope sighted crossbow requires little practice.
I spoke with many hunters I know, and they reported to me the crossbow is DEADLY. The things are cumbersome, but you can adapt and many people I spoke with hunted with them from the same shacks they use during firearms season.
The success ratio with crossbows has skyrocketed REGARDLESS of what any numbers brought forth by our DNR may show.How many deer have escaped because you couldn`t draw your bow?
I personally know a fella who had never killed a deer with a bow after trying bowhunting off and on for years. He managed two bucks on the ground in the first few days of our archery season, and this was with a crossbow he bought and shot only TWICE in practice!
Michigan has alot of bowhunters, and the numbers who are using crossbows are way more than what is being reported, and in my opinion our DNR is fully aware of it...AND what it means as far as bowhunting is concerned.
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Very Disturbing from the Wisconsin perspective and what could be our archery future.
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Very disturbing indeed. For years, the data collected has been twisted and skewed to make the crossbow seem like the second coming and savior of the hunting legacy. What is also concerning is the con being purported that states that a crossbow is just like a compound as well. "Horizontal bowhunting"
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It doesn't take much skill to harvest a deer with a Xbow, rifle, inline smoke pole with a scope or in my way of thinking a compound bow with its peep sights, scopes, whisker biscuits and such. Sorry If this offends some it just my thoughts and those that choose to use these have that right. When I started hunting with my bow in the late 50s. I hardly every saw another hunter. The ones that did hunt had good archery skills, if you didn't you were out of luck. I knew alot of guys that didn't hunt with a bow because it required skill and practice. As soon as the compound bow came out these same guys found that it didn't take as much work to become good enough to harvest a deer. So they filled up the woods and called themselves Bowyers. I don't think so.
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I'll say BAD, piss poor excuse for bowhunting.
Eric
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Definetely bad for us if crossbows are regulated by the same means and season as traditional bows
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I got beat up on in the last X-bow thread... but... you know our long archery seasons are in part based on the fact that we are not all that successful so we are granted long seasons. I fear that with X-bows, the success rate will go way up there for the DOW will need to shorten our seasons...to be more like the short seasons for guns ... just saying that would be BAD.
Joe
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Very good point Joe.
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Originally posted by joe ashton:
I got beat up on in the last X-bow thread... but... you know our long archery seasons are in part based on the fact that we are not all that successful so we are granted long seasons. I fear that with X-bows, the success rate will go way up there for the DOW will need to shorten our seasons...to be more like the short seasons for guns ... just saying that would be BAD.
Joe
it's an old line that never comes true.
http://www.tenpointcrossbows.com/images/Crossbow_Seasons_Maps_US_Mar13_current.JPG
provides a map of crossbows in archery seasons..now please show where this shortened season has happened.
this is why crossbow use in part keeps expanding, because it keeps more people in the game, and there are no delerious effects.
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x-bows suck. They're for the lazy ass people who don't want to practice or say they have no time to do so. If they use a firearm, they're most likely not better hunters as with a x-bow. Only relying on the range and ease of use of their weapon and not on their skills. What to expect nowadays? On my land no x-bows, no compounds, no modern firearms.
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There are two distinct variables that effect harvest rates (if all else is held equal) 1) the weapon 2) the hunter
1) The weapon. It is clear that a crossbow is easier to shoot, they have a longer range and have higher KE. I don't think anyone can argue those simple facts. With a longer range, easier to shoot weapon with higher KE energy, it makes it more likely to put a lethal shot into an animal.
2) The hunter. And of course, this is my opinion and more subjective than the first point. A person who chooses to hunt with a crossbow is one who chooses a quicker and easier way to harvest. I am not saying that is a bad or good thing, but a person who will jump on easy and quick is more likely to lack the characteristics of commitment and patience, As such, I would think those hunters would 1) hunt less often, and 2) give up quicker when tracking a wounded animal. Hunting less often, and not shortened tracking times lead to less harvests.
I do believe that item #2 is really the reason behind states with less significant, short term harvest impacts. So if harvest rates don't skyrocket immediately....why do we even care? I will point out two reasons:
What we can't determine at this point, is how much crossbows will take off given the massive marketing dollars spent by manufacturers, and then what that compounding effect will be on harvest rates. Cold Weather if you have a spreadsheet with crossbow sales growth, please post it. This is the reason we need to regulate these things separately. Second, longer term, what skill set and characteristics do we want to instill in new bowhunters....is it anything goes, quick and easy is fine? or is there a different set of values we should aim for (and can a traditional equipment type help with instilling those values).
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Doug, of course it hasn't happend. . yet. The use of crossbows is in its infancy in most places and there are a ton of deer currently. That wasn't always the case in MY lifetime and it won't be again in my life time.
My concern is for the future. Since that hasn't happened yet it is a bit difficult to provide you with those facts. . just yet.
I believe it will. In my life time. That is why I am adamant against simply incorporating them into the archery season.
From everything I read about the McAlester hunt, they kept tight record of the number of hours hunted, the number of sightings, shots hits/misses, the number of yards for recovery of animals etc etc.
As I recall,this hunt has been going on for a long long time, they allowed compounds in, early on, and very shortly dissallowed them (correct me please if I am recollecting incorrectly)and the reason was that they allowed too high a success rate and at that success rate this hunt was not sustainable.
That was early compounds. Heck they are twice as fast and deadly weapons now. I believe crossbows allow even more ease of use, whether they are "better" or "just as good" as compounds is not really a material worry. They allow some person to pick on up and shoot, period, almost no movement, or. . heck, even skill is required
More and more folks are becoming "bowhunters", for whatever their reason, and frankly, I for one don't believe we need the numbers. There are already way too many in any of the woods around here.
Seems half of them have never actually killed a deer (and found it) but boy they read about it and are now experts. They constantly look for the easy way around it and they sure have a ton to say about my choice of "inefficient, old fashioned" equipment.
I have nothing against cross bows, but I myself do not call them bows, and I myself think that if allowed, they should have their own season, whatever it is, so that they and their harvests are counted separately and judged separately.
ChuckC
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bjansen
maybe we should regulate compound bows with sights, release aids, laser rangefinders, shoot through blinds etc as well.
towards "skill set and characteristics" you seem to neglect to realize that archery and bowhunting are recreational activities. People do them for fun.
towards your "harvest" ideas related to using xbows, you have many examples to actually demonstrate your claims:
xbows in archery seasons in Ohio, WY
in Canada, been in the archery seasons in Ont and BC for 30 plus years.
and none of your so called claims have ever happened. Really, its marvelous you spout this, because it never happens.
I note how you claim xbow archers are somehow less dedicated. Hmmm..I use an xbow, but also have 3 high end compounds and 3 custom recurves with a 4th on order, and a custom longbow. Been in archery 40 plus years.
Got a good friend of mine who is a dedicated traditional archer. Owns 15 or so stickbows, one compound, and ONE xbow. He hunts mostly with the traditional tackle, but does carry his xbow as well. Been in archery over 50 years...
tell me, what exact experience do you have with xbows? Ever shot one, or carried one in the woods?
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Good for Canada, that is a great place for crossbows. Keep them up there.
ChuckC
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As far as i am conserned the crossbow for the handicaped is ok and good for getting and keeping people in the woods.. all the a crossbow does and even compounds to some extent is for people that just wanna go kill something without practicing..traditional archery is more than that..its a culture all iits own..its family..its coming together for 3d shoots its campfires and stories about the one that got close but didnt get a shot at..its bigger than the animal u shot at 60 yards.. its so much bigger than what the wheelly guys have made it.. its not so much about the size of the rack..its about backstrapes over an open fire with good friends and the stars above on a cool autumn night just before u crawl into a sleeping bag somewhere in Gods beautiful wilderness antisipating the next day and the one that got away..
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I agree with Chuck a crossbow is not a bow..Its a gun without a bang..400 fps thats a humane kill but where is the skill..anyone can walk into a sporting goods store buy one and with basic instructions shoot something.. there is something about the simplicity of a stick and a string and an arrow..no whisles and bells..no lazer sights scopes or trigger releases or,range finders to complicate the one real thing..you and the animal and the experience of getting close..it worked for the indians and they survived..Im for the simpler times before things got so confussing..as for me I will never own a crossbow or a compond.
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No problem with cross bows here.
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Cold Weather... Did you forget to read this?
Tradgang.com is 100% totally devoted to traditional bowhunting. The 3 goals of Tradgang.com are as follows ...
1. To offer a public access website for those that love the sport of hunting with traditional archery equipment - i.e., selfbows, longbows, and recurves.
2. To create a friendly atmosphere to all. Dedicated to the discussion of all topics that relate to traditional bowhunting.
3. To support traditional bowhunting and archery manufacturers, vendors, services and organizations - good folks that have their hearts and souls poured into the sport.
Expect to be respected if you decide to join the gang, because the rule of respect is held highest of the few rules that apply. Tradgang.com has a zero tolerance for disrespect directed to anyone. If you want to disagree, then please do so in an adult manner. Debate is healthy, as one sword sharpens another, but it must be done in an honorable fashion.
Xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
It has a trigger...it not a bow.
If I design some kind of little "bow like" device to set off the primer on a black powder rifle...or better yet to fire my shotgun/rifle.....can I use it during bow season??? Wouldn't be too hard to do? Just a thought. Maybe we could even get shotguns that fire bolts???
Why does it have to be so difficult? If you manually pull a string and release an arrow it's a bow....... Keep it simple. Too bad big $$$ has to interfere.
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So you can't disagree with your dislike of crossbows? I didn't read that in the rules. I don't see why crossbows adversely affect traditional archery.
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SKITCH, there already is a device like you describe. It is called the AIRROW. It is a barrel that is interchanged onto a Ruger .22 rifle. That barrel enables its' user to fire arrows from it. "Archery with your rifle" is how they advertise it. Archery, right? Ha. Gotta laugh at all the angles they try to do to minimize the effort and dedication that is ARCHERY. Anything else compromises the integrity of the archery seasons.
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I know around here they're pushing the crossbow as the end-all answer to bow season. The local shop not only has no trad gear, they laugh at people who "won't spend what it takes to hunt for real." Hitting his target with my glasses off did nothing to his attitude. If it doesn't have wheels, it's not bowhunting around here. Crossbows are being promoted as making it just like gun season.
Hunting with crossbows is an old, old thing. I'd like to see the legislators treat it as a separate thing altogether-it's not really archery, but it's crippled versus a gun as well. That would of course require legislators capable of subtlety, and I live in Alabama.
As an aside that has serious implications for the thread, I am a disabled hunter, and I have already been told I will experience a day when I can't draw a bow. I just may swap to a crossbow for the lack of kick versus my converted 12 gauge slug gun. Would you all see me as abandoning the traditional spirit if I had to shoot a crossbow, even if I got one without the wheels (or rather, this one I'm building myself to be more accurate.) It's a serious question that could keep a lot of people hunting for longer, but there's a hell of a stigma even if you need it. My docs have thrown around the phrase "lose the left arm" before. Not much left for someone with no teeth to hold a release and no arm.
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come on man...
I don't think there is anyone here that would get on someone's case for shooting a crossbow for REAL medical reasons.
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No one should get on anyone's case for shooting and hunting with an xbow period.
I really don't understand why anyone would even care.
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If in the appropriate season, it doesn't matter. Archery season is not the appropriate season for xbows.
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My dad use to say ..if u don't stand for something u will fall for anything.. I stand for true and simple archery..my Dad shot a300lb black bear in 1956 with a Ben Pearson longbow and a home made cedar arrow..it worked then and its still working today.. technology has no place in true archery..
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considering an xbow is archery, I really cant think of a more appropriate season than archery season.
as far as technology, its too late for that.
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Cold weather what archery skill is needed for a crossbow? At least compounds are hand drawn and held even if they are full of technology we choose not to use they still require some archery skill crossbows use no archery skill they use the same skill set as a gun. The way I see it they have more in common with guns than bows, therefore have no buisiness in bow season they belong with the guns or in there own season.
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A crossbow is not and never will be archery..its what will destroy real archery if we keep going in that direction..
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JT
I take it you have never used a xbow, because you assume it is like a firearm.
it is not. and in no way is it like carrying a firearm in the field.
it's a type of bow. there is absolutely no requirement to have "skill" to be in the archery season.
however, since you bring this up, I take it you would have no objection to tests to determine proficiency?
now, if we put a paper plate out at say 20 yards, I could hit that virtually all the time with my compound. I could also with my xbow.
but with my wes Wallace mentor? not so sure.
interesting enough, I am LESS accurate with my xbow than with my compound. I am also less accurate with my xbow than my firearms.
and that is not uncommon. if you look at the IBO scores compound vs xbow there is difference.
towards xbows in firearm seasons-so it belongs in the same season as my 300 wby mag? that's beyond words...
its a bow, a different type of a bow. now since you claim it belongs in its own season, where does this season come from?
anyway, now there are many examples of xbows in archery seasons. Some 30 plus years like OH, WY, ONT and BC. so show me where it has been delirious?
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You talked about the accuracy of a crossbow not the archery skills used to shoot one and you would be wrong I have shot crossbows I have a few.disabled friends.that use them and I've helped them site in there crossbows it was just like sighting in a rifle.
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Crossbows are bad to me....if you cant shoot a real bow for hunting during archery only seasons....but want to shoot a crossbow. have at it...just dont call it bowhunting and do it during archery seasons.
hunt with it during the general firearms season...afterall it has a stock, a trigger, and most are mounted with scopes.
crossbows are not meant to be used for hunting during archery only seasons....
use them all you want...just not for bowhunting as they have little in common with a hand held, hand drawn vertical bow. The compound of today has gone way too far with 90%+ let off, scopes, laser range finders built into sights, etc....
have to draw the line somewhere and I say keep xbows out of archery season...period.
have you pro technology guys forgotten that archery only seasons and the true muzzleloader seasons were enacted to give people shooting primitive weapons a head start on hunting without competing with the rifles and shotguns. That the challenge was in getting close and using skills, woodsmanship, and close range tactics in getting an opportunity (not a sure thing).....it took dedication aside from some that were lucky...but to be consistent you had to work at it.
now with modern blackpowder you shoot sabot rounds with pellet powder that is breech loaded with scopes on top and shotgun primers that are accurate over 200 yards and is nothing more than a single shot rifle to be honest. same with compounds....with the 90%+ let off....auto range finding sights, lighted nocks, 350+ fps speeds on ultralight arrows with expandable heads....guys are taking 70yd shots on a regular basis with quartering toward shots at 30-45 yards common in magazines and television. Also a far cry from what it was in past.
Once again...it is not about how far you can shoot...or how many animals you shoot at...it is about challenge, woodsmanship, dedication and seeing how you fare against animals within their danger zone of 10-30 yards for whitetail...being WOLF CLOSE where they are their most alert.
when television and magazines show over and over the young person or first time hunter and they are taken and get a Booner or PY buck that would rival 90% of what we have shot after a lifetime...yeah it is exciting but is it setting that person up for life of disappointment or temptation with more technology as they strive to beat that first rush of the record animal their parent or outfitter found, filmed, patterned, and then put them there to shoot when it came by the stand? how much better would it be for them to sit the stand with a parent...take a doe or cull buck for their first...learn how to track and read sign...learn disappointment with not playing the wind, not practicing the shots, not making good choices...to be rewarded with a nice doe or small buck after some work. Then having to work out their own stand and animals after that on their own...learning both successes and defeats?
We are cheating our youth and ourselves by allowing technology to replace skills and emotions felt and learned over thousands of years....by turning the killing of an animal into more about long range shooting and technology than the intimate, emotional, killing experience it can be when successful...or the frustration when things dont go right but you never give up.????
No xbows in bow seasons....I think industry is driving modern bows and xbows...and that is why it is so popular with television personalities being the primary driver and the ability to do little more than sight in the xbow and then go hunting the same day if you want just like most hunters do with rifles already. I think we will lose the battle and xbows will be allowed in the P&Y as an official bow for book animals...too much money being thrown around for it not to happen...just like P&Y giving in to raising the letoff above 65%....and how they seem to be leaning for allowing lighted/electronic nocks....all because someone shot a potential world class animal and it cant be listed.
Proves it is all about how much money and recognition you can get as an org or person...and not respect for the animal or the skills to get close and make it happen as the seasons were intended when first enacted in 50s and 60s.
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Originally posted by J.T.:
You talked about the accuracy of a crossbow not the archery skills used to shoot one and you would be wrong I have shot crossbows I have a few.disabled friends.that use them and I've helped them site in there crossbows it was just like sighting in a rifle.
hmmm the dymamics of sighting in an xbow are almost identical.
except that after every shot, I have to use a cocking aid.
much more tiresome to sight in than a rifle.
go to 50 yards with an xbow, and see if you can shoot it with anywhere near the accuracy of a rifle.
you cant.
carry it in the woods, and tell me it carries like a rifle.
it don't.
of course you have to be able to judge the distance with an xbow for shots, because of the high trajectory.
a rifle at xbow ranges? lol you don't.
sorry an xbow doesn't compare to a firearm.
towards a comparison towards other archery equipment-it has its pluses and minuses. since I own all the archery equipment-compounds, recurves, longbow, and xbow I know this very well.
but you show me exactly where xbows are delirious. to me, its a great way of keeping people in the woods, and introducing bowhaunting and archery to them.
my FIRST ever arrow was shot with an xbow and I have been in the sport ever since. that was about 1967.
because its archery equipment its seasons pretty obvious.
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keep them in woods...not in archery only seasons.
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Cold weather
I never said a x bow was as.accurate as a rifle or that it would shoot as far. The act of shooting a.x bow has more in common with shooting a.rifle than a bow. What I asked was what archery skills are used to shoot a x bow? (Anchor point , back tension, hand drawn, hand held ect.)
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none JT...absolutely nothing other than screwing a broadhead into the end of the shaft.
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Originally posted by J.T.:
Cold weather
I never said a x bow was as.accurate as a rifle or that it would shoot as far. The act of shooting a.x bow has more in common with shooting a.rifle than a bow. What I asked was what archery skills are used to shoot a x bow? (Anchor point , back tension, hand drawn, hand held ect.)
I think we both know that.
btw...an xbow is shot as an xbow. not a gun. xbows far outdate firearms. I have read they date to 600BC.
of course, how it is shot is immaterial because its a type of bow. a different type of a bow than a compound/recurve.
to add, a compound bow with sights, release is shot much different than a trad bow. and even more, now many use laser rangefinders.
range the distance with a laser, then use a moveable pin sight so you can set the pin exactly. then shoot with a release and aim with a peep sight.
I have yet to see one valid reason why someone shouldn't use an xbow if they want and don't think I ever will. the best I have ever seen is that one doesn't like it. If one doesn't like it, then don't use it. ;)
would you support proficiency tests to determine if one should be in the archery season or not? Regardless of the bow-5 arrows into a paper plate at 20 yards.
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A wise man once asked me, "If you have to pull a trigger, is it really a bow?"
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The tough thing is, about 90-95% of hunters in bow season "fire" the bow by putting their finger on a trigger. Most use a trigger release.
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The way some people defend the crossbow and compound u have to wonder if they really belong on a web sight that is soully for traditional archery and the values there of..
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The way some people defend the crossbow and compound u have to wonder if they really belong on a web sight that is soully for traditional archery and the values there of..
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Originally posted by Mojostick:
The tough thing is, about 90-95% of hunters in bow season "fire" the bow by putting their finger on a trigger. Most use a trigger release.
Its just food for thought is all.
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Cold weather,
To get back to the topic of this thread on weather cross guns in Michigan's archery season is good or bad bad for us. I feel since the act.of shooting a cross gun take no archery skill it does more harm than good to archery season. It bring more hunters into the woods than buy a cross gun shoot it twice and then go hunting. As far a proficiency tests that has more to do with ethics and personal responsibility and happens to be the same test my father made me pass in order to hunt when I was of legal age and there are a few areas that use them in order to get tags but as far as Michigan is concerned ethics don't make the state money crossbows do so I doubt we will see state wide proficiency tests.
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More food for thought-
In a way, both xbows and modern compounds are more like arrow shooting platforms, than bows. There is no "bowing" of the bow, with most parallel limbed compounds. Add drop away rests and D-loops and you remove contact with both the bow and string. I certainly have no issue with modern compounds being used in archery season, or xbows for that matter, but is a modern compound really a bow anymore?
If anything, this is why we're seeing more interest in traditional bows. I think more and more people want to get back to the roots and away from gadgets and back to a more pure bow hunt.
The reality is, killing deer in most places isn't difficult anymore. So more people will opt for the challenge of trad bows as time wears on.
I've sold all 3, xbows, compounds and trad bows and have a "to each his own" attitude on the weapon used. I think harvest regulations are a much greater concern for all of us vs weapon used rules. The reality is, xbows and compounds will always be what the majority gravitates towards and they aren't going anywhere. However, traditional gear is growing in interest and I think our energy should be focused on fostering that, and growing the traditional ranks, than fighting an old battle that has essentially been settled, for good. Just my opinion.
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Mosojostick brings an excellent view and one I agree with wholeheartedly.
the reality is one can use these other platforms to grow traditional archery.
I remember when the compound was coming in-and how trad bows where forsaken in the 70s. By the early 80s trad bows were almost extinct.
but they came back, and now I venture to say that there is more people interested in trad bows than in the hey day of recurves/longbows the 60s.
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JT,
When I worked in an archery shop I couldn't count the amount of two-shot and go hunting wheelies I sold. Its not just cross bows. That same shop also sent out gun after gun with a fresh scope mounted on them. It was spooky the amount of people who walked right to the woods trusting our bore sight to be adequate, it never is as we all know. The whole 2-shots and go hunting argument applies to every weapon that is legal. Work a sporting goods shop and you will have a sick stomach more than once a day. For that matter hang out at a Trad. 3D shoot for a weekend and tell me how many of those folks have the "right" to actually hunt with their bows? Lots of holes in the trees and lots of broken arrows. I suppose the wheelys and x-bow guys could condemn us as well?
Im not a x-bow fan, Im not a compound fan. All I care is that whatever legal weapon you chose, you shoot it well.
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Also I'm not implying that all cross gun shooters are unethical but since Michigan legalized cross guns they seem to have attracted more slob hunters than real ethical hunters and thats bad for archery
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The good news. Even slob hunters have a voice if anybody tries to get serious about taking our hunting rights away. Were on the same team, like it or not! I will gladly stand next to any legal hunter to defend our rights if it comes to that point.
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Not to divert to another subject, but the bait pile has probably attracted 20 times the slob hunters than anything else. Take away baiting and many of those "hunters" who don't know anything about deer hunting but where to dump the bag of carrots would likely take up lining/snagging salmon instead. LOL
From my experience in the hunting retail world, the folks buying crossbows are made up almost entirely of current bowhunters who want a xbow due to age, health or don't have the time to practice as much but still want to hunt in archery season (and xbows are legal now, like it or not), the long time firearms only hunter who wants to join his buddies or family on a bowhunt and people buying xbows for their kids that can't yet pull back 35-40lbs, but the parents want to sit with them as 10-14 year olds.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of xbows. I've shot a couple of them at work and just don't care for them. I don't have to explain to the trad crowd why I'm not a big fan of xbows. However, they are here to stay and we all need to face it. Secondly, having had rotator cuff surgery, if I could never draw a bow again, I'd buy an xbow, reluctantly.
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Mojostick,
You make a VERY good point.
Being able to hunt during archery season with a youngin that can't pull a bow back is pretty cool.
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I started out with a crossbow. I have been a gun hunter for some years. About 2 years ago I bought a recurve type cross bow thinking that taking the full plunge into archery would be too much. After about 6 months I traded it for a compound riser recurve and about six months after that I bought a lovely wood long bow. Now I practice 6 days a week and love it. If I had my way primitive muzzle loaders using patch round balls and trad bows would be in the same season along with weapons like the atlatl. Once the rut starts toss in the compounds, xbows, and inlines. However that's not to be compounds are here to stay. My buddy bought a Hoyt compound and brought it over to the range. My first time shooting it I put 3 arrows in 3 inches at 20 yards something I would be very hard pressed to do on my best day with my long bow an even my old crossbow. To be frank I see little difference.
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I got it.
Why don't we just mount a high tech crossbow with some amazing optics, motion sensors, night vision and heat seeking bolts to a small waterproof battery powered tracked remote control vehicle equipped with hi def cam and 360• view capability...then we could sit in the back of a cozy heated (or air conditioned) SUV equipped with dual 36" hi def, flat screen, 3D monitors with a life like surround sound system, multi function remote controls, a cold beer and a nice meal and go bow hunting!!! Wouldn't even have to get dirty or break a sweat. :D :D :D
That would put a little more $$ in someone's pocket.
To each his own I guess as long as its legal and responsible.
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Skitch.. I think u r on to something cuze if it keeps on going in the direction its going thats where its going..someone is always trying to build a better mouse trap..when is enough enough?
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Hey pearl drums..alot of folks that come to the trad 3D shoots dont hunt. They r there for the fellowship and the sport..its a really fun thing to do even if u can't hit the broad side of a barn..lol I've seen the ones u are talkin about..I hope I'm not hunting the same woods they are...
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Bowhunting will not be made better as a "sport" because of the legalization of crossbows.
I personally know many people who had no difficulty getting a permit to use crossbows because of physical limitations. (for which I completetly agree)
Why do you think the state changed the rules AFTER repeat...AFTER they passed the law?
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Maybe we need 4 bow seasons 10 days long each? That we each sector gets a chance to hunt the way they feel is "real bowhunting". We can start with self bows since they are the toughest, then the next 10 days is for glass guys, the next 10 for wheelys and we wrap up the Michigan archery season with a 10 day x-bow hunt. Maybe a cross-bow line like we have the rifle line with M46 & M57? Or, we just enjoy our chosen legal bows and hunt for 75 days each season they allot to us as HUNTERS. Life is too short to worry about anything but what we each love about our archery.
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What Michigan needs is to get out of the 1940's and into the 2010's, as far as season dates go. We do that by changing our short bow season and work towards season dates that match some of the other states in the region. Increasing "time afield" opportunity is key.
Michigan set the October 1 start date way back in 1945. For closing dates, there was a hodgepodge of closing dates in the 1960's, until the statewide closing date of Jan. 1 was set in 1981.
All of these season dates, along with a bow season that is weeks shorter than other states, are out of date.
People today have ever more packed up work schedules. Kids also have different schedules now than we did as kids. The days of 4-5 guys taking a week off, together, are as out of date as high paying factory jobs. The same is true with taking kids out of school to hunt. Our season dates are from a different era, completely.
While the UP should probably retain the old Oct.1-Jan. 1 bow season dates due to winter yarding and the long term return to marginal deer habitat than can only support lower herd numbers, there's no reason that LP bow season couldn't run from Sept. 1 to Jan. 31. All that would do is offer more hunter opportunity and spread out hunting pressure in the often crowded woods.
The truth is, the only folks out there in January would be the most dedicated/ethical 10%. I say all Michigan bowhunters should push to extend bow season to Jan. 31.
Ohio's bow season in Sept. 28 to Feb. 2.
Kentucky's bow season is Sept. 7 to Jan. 20.
Wisconsin's bow season is Sept. 14 to Jan. 5.
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Bob with the 2+ month long, screwed up rut we have up here do you suppose a Sept 1st opener would jeopardize fawns living after momma gets shot earlier? Heck some aren't even born until July when momma gets pregnant in late December or January. I like cooler weather and probably would never head out in September, but I would still support a longer season all the same.
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No. It's screwed up buck/doe ratio in some area's that can cause late dropped fawns.
This is where APR's should help.
If anything, we shouldn't protect late dropped fawns, since the late dropped fawns will be what comes into heat later in the rut, thus continuing an endless cycle of late ruts/late drops. We'd be better off to shoot as many late dropped fawns as possible and then hope a bad winter takes the rest, to set things back to right.
A September season makes it easy to identify button bucks from a young doe, so less buttons will get killed if you fill an antlerless tag in Sept. vs waiting until December.
One must also keep in mind that hunters in KY, OH and WI deal with any fawn issue and it's much hotter in OH and KY in Sept. than it is here, yet their hunters at least get the option to bowhunt in Sept. While afternoon sits would be warm, a mid-Sept morning hunt could be very pleasant.
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I've often thought about ways to shorten the rut up. Your right, taking out late drops (with crossbows....that was a joke) is really the only way. Both my kids shot late born doe fawns for their first deer. It took them a minute to understand the reasoning behind it. Once it sank in they felt like they did the rest of the herd a responsible favor, in which they did! Plus they drag soooo easy!
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You did the right thing. Many hunters have a "Bambi-complex" about shooting a small fawn. The truth is, they are the very deer some locations need targeted, along with more mature does.
If we get even a normal winter let alone a harsh one, if there's lots of small fawns that don't make it until the next spring, all that means is they took some much needed food from those that were always going to make it. And all that means is the whole herd suffers. So go shoot a small fawn, enjoy the tenderness of the steaks and never think twice about it.
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Hate to dig up this thread but one reason states are redefining archery to include modern trigger type weapons (crossbows) is the NRA. They pumped money into our legislature here in WI, and now in 2014 non archers will be in the woods in Sept. They claim that it is to defend hunting rights in general. I have disputed their claim everytime they try to get me to renew my membership. Somehow allowing someone to harvest a deer in the archery season with a crossbow is a 1st amendment issue. Our DNR has sold out.
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*2nd amendment, my apologies America