Trad Gang
Main Boards => Hunting Legislation & Policies => Topic started by: VictoryHunter on August 29, 2013, 08:49:00 PM
-
Are they as bad as everyone is making them out to be? It seems both sides of the argument are manipulating the numbers in their favor. My biggest issue with it is that it seems their introduction may be illegal as the ones let loose weren't the native species. Maybe some Idaho/Montana folk can weigh in on the situation and give us some insight.
-
Here we go. Hang on brother.
-
Anytime you allow hunters into an area that are better hunters than ourselves with no bag limits or seasons, someone will have an opinion and nothing ever gets settled. you do however see a lot of fireworks :readit:
-
http://trib.com/news/state-and-regional/wolves-kill-sheep-in-idaho/article_a38ea337-36a2-50c0-9486-733993b458b4.html
Ask Idaho, Montana and western Wyoming folks about wolves' impact on the elk and moose populations, and it becomes pretty clear that they need some serious controls imposed on them.
-
I won't get too far into this, but most or all Montanans are very anti wolf.
-
Ever since I saw the movie "The Grey" I've had a taste for one. "Good lil' puppy"
-
In the past 4 years I've had Elk & Moose sightings drop drastically. I hardly ever see a Moose in areas I used to see 4 or 5 a year. The elk situation is similar. Less & less being seen in a lot of places.
wolf depredations in Yellowstone Park have gone way up too. The heavier the snowfall, the easier prey Elk & Moose become.
Grand parents killed wolves for a reason.
Personally, I'd like to see them all gone.
-
We just had our first confirmed wolf attack on a human this week. The kid survived with 17 staples to the back of his head. Lucked out. Said he'd probably won't be sleeping outside ever again!
-
I saw a pair in my favorite elk hunting area yesterday., No elk though. Not even a track. These were wolf dogs that someone turned out in hopes that they would start a pack, Matching male and female and really beautiful . starving to death though and asking for food. That's how I knew they were pets. The Forest Service now knows where they are. All they have to do to catch them is show them a sandwich./ LOL.
The people doing this are really stupid and they are condemning their animals to a terrible death. It really made me sick.
God bless, Steve
-
I have some friends that live, and my father has spent the past 18 years hunting the west fork of the bitterroot river outside of Hamilton and from what I have been told and stories of dads hunts with Gordy, things are not what they once were since the wolfs introduction in the frank church wilderness area in Idaho. Something drastic needs to be done for the tax payers of those states that now have to find other places to hunt rather than hunting out the back door. Who knows if something ever will get done with all the lobbyists in Washington... Quite the crock
-
Shoot, shovel, and shut up.
-
Those wolf dogs are the ones I'd be worried about, no fear of man. Whoever released them is a moron. Either catch em or shoot em. Good lil puppies.
-
Originally posted by SCATTERSHOT:
Shoot, shovel, and shut up.
:clapper: :clapper: :clapper:
-
I have heard of a collared wolf from Id being tracked across NV into CA and then back. I have a tag up on the NV -ID border in Oct. Might get to see one
-
Thanks guys. Quite honestly the whole thing stinks to me. I wish they had never introduced them in the first place. It seems the more and more I dig the more I find that they are wiping out game species all over. It's incredibly sad. I wish the Fish and Game departments involved would be held accountable for this travesty.
-
Just got done at Yellowstone and the guide an employee of Yellowstone said 2 out of every three pronghorn born are taken by the wolves. Saw next to no elk and very few mule deer. Went on a horseback ride at the Shoshone lodge right outside east gate of Yellowstone. This was the area Buffallo Bill Cody had his big game camp. The guide said they use to see elk all the time and since the reintroduction of the wolves they never see them anymore.
-
A hot button issue for sure. Here's my take:
1. The courts need to grow a set and turn management back over to the states, full time, then throw out any new lawsuits filed by the pro-wolf lobby. Let the States manage them as they see fit.
2. More hunters need to quit bitching and get out hunting wolves. Unfortunately, most hunters are fat and lazy and the wolves just don't stand off the side of the road to let people shoot at them. It's easier to complain than to trudge out through the mountains, so people just complain. If you don't like wolves, get a tag and start hiking.
3. The wolves are here to stay. Deal with it.
-
wolf are useful , but got to be regulated .
don't forget a thing , when they can , they'll prefer to hunt old or sick animals ... that help to have a sane population on game .
the trouble start when they're to many but when they are to few too .
-
If you want facts research cow calf ratios, and age structure of Elk herds. Look at carrying capacity of the habitat.
The two myths that make me chuckle the most are that they kill the sick and weak and that only the alpha male and alpha female breed.
-
A great book on the subject is "Wolfer
A great book on the subject is "Wolfer" by Carter Niemeyer. Its the truth of reintroduction from the authority. Lots of good info.
-
I'm from Wyoming, and was in law school back in the late 80's when they first talked about reintroducing wolves. I went to a presentation, and the speaker said they wouldn't reintroduce many, and they believed that the wolves would stay in Yellowstone Park because it was a big enough area and ecosystem to sustain them.
I suggested that the wolves might leave Yellowstone Park to follow the elk, that migrate south into Jackson Hole in the winter. What do you know? The wolves followed the elk out of Yellowstone Park. Those stupid wolves. Didn't they see the boundary markers for the park? LOL.
-
Originally posted by Moots:
I'm from Wyoming, and was in law school back in the late 80's when they first talked about reintroducing wolves. I went to a presentation, and the speaker said they wouldn't reintroduce many, and they believed that the wolves would stay in Yellowstone Park because it was a big enough area and ecosystem to sustain them.
I suggested that the wolves might leave Yellowstone Park to follow the elk, that migrate south into Jackson Hole in the winter. What do you know? The wolves followed the elk out of Yellowstone Park. Those stupid wolves. Didn't they see the boundary markers for the park? LOL.
I hear you, brother! The wolf huggers have got what they wanted; less hunting opportunity for those mean old human hunters. I firmly believe that it was part of their plan all along, and it is working.
-
There is a pretty good book on the subject: "Where the Wild Things Were: Life, Death, and Ecological Wreckage in a Land of Vanishing Predators" by William Stolzenburg.
The author makes some very compelling arguments for why wild predators are important to maintaining overall ecological diversity. Wolves are discussed in the book.
I don't really have an opinion about Wolves, just throwing that out there.
-
A buddy of mine lives in the Snowy Range... He has told me that he's figuring the elk population is down by 50 to 65% in his neck of the woods. He is seeing a continual increase in sign of wolves, and has been for the last 10 years or so.
My son is a wild-land firefighter, and spent four weeks up in the Frank ChurchRiver of No Return & Selway-Bitterroot country last year as part of a Fire Use Module Team. He came back with tons of photos of wolves, a few of bear, but very few of elk. Speaking with some of the firefighters from that neck of the woods, the wolves are hammering the ungulates too hard.
Funny thing is we are seeing indications of at least one pack in the Black Hills - - mostly in the north central area. I am guessing they probably migrated here from the Yellowstone country via the Bighorns and Bear Lodge Mtns. Have been a few of them killed along the highways in the last few years as well. They are definitely back, though.
On another note, there's confirmation that we have Black Bear moving back in as well. Confirmed with trail cam photos by a wildlife specialist that works out of the same building as my son.
Couple all of that with the over-population of Mtn Lions in this area, and it becomes very obvious that humans are not the apex predator by a long shot...
-
Another thought to consider.
Deer and other prey animals are what they are because of their ability in the long term of dealing with whatever adversity comes their way.
Those able to stay vigilant and avoid being eaten by a predator might be more apt to survive and pass on their genes and teach their young some traits. Those that cannot might be more prone to being eaten.
In time, the "weak" ones, in this case those not vigilant, or quick, or green with brown dots (camo) or whatever advantage that occurs, are gone and only the "strong" remain. The age old story. Change is a constant and the herd is always changing.
Take away some adversity, say, top line predators, and that need is no longer important, no longer a deciding factor. Those without the "strong" advantage are no longer at a disadvantage. . for that particular adversity, and their genetic line can again flourish.
Deer will be here without predators. There will be other adversities to keep them in check, if we let them happen, but if you take away the wildness of a deer, is it really the same animal ?
Hunting a tame deer (neighborhood deer) in my back yard just doesn't sound appealing to me.
Additionally, those extra deer / elk etc affect their world to, like people on earth. Too many will eat too much and not just eat themselves out of house and home, but change their world.
Here we go again, those plants that are vigilant (yeah right), or that can grow faster, or higher, or that contain some chemical deterrent (natural GMO ?) might not be eaten and thus live to pass on genes, while the others won't. . and the forest changes because of that.
ChuckC
-
Originally posted by Stickbow:
If you want facts research cow calf ratios, and age structure of Elk herds. Look at carrying capacity of the habitat.
The two myths that make me chuckle the most are that they kill the sick and weak and that only the alpha male and alpha female breed.
I would like to add this one " they only kill to eat" They have never seen what a pack does to a herd bogged down by a real heavy snow. They kill for the sake of killing.
-
I've read reports from what Montana F&G is saying, it's funny how they are quite conflicting with what the people who are out there, live, and use these areas for recreation are reporting. There was a great video on this ill have to see if I can find it and post it.
http://www.lobowatch.org/
I can't find the video but this website has lots of good information
-
Originally posted by 4dogs:
Originally posted by Stickbow:
If you want facts research cow calf ratios, and age structure of Elk herds. Look at carrying capacity of the habitat.
The two myths that make me chuckle the most are that they kill the sick and weak and that only the alpha male and alpha female breed.
I would like to add this one " they only kill to eat" They have never seen what a pack does to a herd bogged down by a real heavy snow. They kill for the sake of killing. [/b]
I knew this would be a hot topic.
Those distanced from the wolves are way more tollerant of the loss of deer, elk, moose, cattle, sheep, & sooner or later, people.
I know a rancher who has lost 80 sheep in one night to wolves. Yup they only kill what they need. BULL they kill for the pure fun of it.
Two years ago I met another bowhunter who cautioned us about hunting a certain medow. He said he was there chirping a cow call & was surrounded by wolves. He said he could hear them kind of low barking as they surrounded him. He left.
One day someone is going to be killed by them. Someone's child playing in a yard is going to be killed by them.
I for one would like to see them ALL gone. The ones we have now aren't the same breed of wolf that used to be here. They are bigger & much more of a pack predator. They need to be GONE!
-
Howard Hills archery Jason has had his own run in with them, read this article from a few years back
http://m.missoulian.com/news/local/wolf-killed-after-attacking-dogs-on-edge-of-hamilton/article_ebf7abac-85ac-11e0-a99b-001cc4c002e0.html?mobile_touch=true
-
Reintroducing wolves is one of the dumbest things that's ever been done in the name of wildlife management. It's not the wolves fault, they are just doing what wolves do, but what's next?Reintroducing red wolves to Pennsylvania? Grizzlies in so cal?
If I.lived out there I definitely would be hunting wolves.
-
Originally posted by Frank V:
...Grand parents killed wolves for a reason.
Personally, I'd like to see them all gone.
They killed them all out of ignorance. If we can't figure out a way to manage them, its our failure.
Hating them because they have changed what we are used to is not a very good reason to wipe them out.
I'd like to think we have "evolved" enough to find a way to keep them around that balances the the various issues.
Wolves are a great animal to hate. Do some research on how/why we have chosen to hate them so much. It is pretty interesting.
Joshua
-
Originally posted by jhg:
Originally posted by Frank V:
[qb] ...Grand parents killed wolves for a reason.
Personally, I'd like to see them all gone. [/b]
You said:
They killed them all out of ignorance.
I said:
Actually they killed the to keep stock depredations down!
You said:
Hating them because they have changed what we are used to is not a very good reason to wipe them out.
I said:
If you mean they have changed what we are used to by lessening the number of deer, elk, moose, & domestic livestock, because that's what they have done & are doing! It's enough reason for me.
I'd way rather have Deer, Elk, Moose, & livestock than wolves!
-
Joshua, I agree with you they don't need to be eradicated, but they do need to be put in check, and mans reason for hating the wolf is one of arrogance, if there is a land dwelling predator as efficient at killing as man it's the wolf, I have done my research and the canine will outlast the human race if we were to lose all our technological advances (guns) there's a reason they were killed off and ran off before, they are great at what they do..
-
To just think about taking a wolf at close range with my longbow, from a ground blind......talk about high adrenalin!!! :scared: :bigsmyl:
-
From an outsider's prospective I think that no animal deserves to be eradicated or extinguished from the face of the earth.That's called biodiversity.On the other hand it should be up to each State's discretion to figure out how many wolves are a sustainable number and the excess should be hunted and killed.
-
Like any predator they need to be controlled.
Unfortunately as the federal Government becomes more powerful everyday and states rights lessen it is only going to get worse.
-
"those who forget the past are destine to relive it"
There was a reason why they were killed off.
-
Like all game animals they need to be controlled. States should have the power to do this as to their needs.
Our creeping in on their home ranges and habitat has created the need for this to happen.
Let's face it, if WE did not encroach on their territory there would not be the need for this. However, we have and there is a need for them to be controlled.
But, lets be real here, we (humans) were the problem first. We have shown time and again that if we are not controlled what can happen. ie the Buffalo
-
Look Mom No Sights
& D.J. Carr
Have got the picture! ;)
wolves are not the warm fuzzy touchy feely animals that Walt Disney aided by the tree huggers so avidly project!
'Nuf said!
:deadhorse:
-
I agree with the controlled, not eradicated school of thought, like other game animals and predators. I just read a book (The Alaska Wolf Man) on a gent named Frank Glaser who was a government hunter and predator control agent in Alaska from the late teens to the early 1950s. He respected the wolves, but knew the moose, caribou and sheep were in big trouble if they were not controlled. He noted many accounts of them killing for sport and not feeding. Part of an ecosystem yes, dominating the ecosystem and putting ranchers and outfitters out business, no.
D.P.
-
The problem came when the greenies and Feds kept uping the number of wolves that were to be present before removing their protected status.
-
It would really be nice if we were intelligent enough to manage the wolf numbers properly.
If we stopped hunting whitetails, they would over run their browse and die of hunger or disease. If we don't limit the kills, we wind up with what we had in the late 40's early 50's in Michigan - a rarity that hardly anyone got to see.
The raptors used to be controlled (not eradicated) in Germany. Then, the Green party got some power and they became totally protected. Pheasant and grouse numbers plummeted to nearly nothing.
It seems to me that we have sustainable numbers of wolves around the country and it should now be up to the wildlife biologists at the state level to regulate the packs to keep them at sustainable numbers while controlling the predation. We can't hunt them if they are wiped out and we won't have anything else to hunt if they aren't controlled.
MN just had the first ever recorded wolf attack on a human, so it's not like the old stories of the Steppes of Russia where they terrorized villages. At the same time, I can understand that if I were a sheep farmer I'd expect to get a control permit. One of the strong arguments for allowing elephant hunting is that the high license fees pay for much-needed game wardens to control poaching. Maybe we could do something similar - use part of the wolf license fees to compensate ranchers for lost sheep/calves.
We just had a black bear attack on a 12 year old girl in Michigan. Anybody want to wipe out all the bears?
Guess we can't please everybody and sometimes not even anybody.
-
Originally posted by jhg:
Originally posted by Frank V:
...Grand parents killed wolves for a reason.
Personally, I'd like to see them all gone.
They killed them all out of ignorance. If we can't figure out a way to manage them, its our failure.........Joshua [/b]
The best way to manage them was to not reintroduce them back in the west in the first place. Then, we wouldn't have reintroduced the problems that we have now with them. I hear some elk guiding services are going out of business because there aren't any elk where there once was.
So, you're right, it's our failure.
-
A bowhunter, woman, was attacked in Idaho the other day. Wolf saw her from a ways off, charged her. She put down her bow, pulled a .44 magnum, and killed it at 10feet! She is also a long time, licensed, professional guide. F&W said good to go on her part. This was on a varmint hunting forum. It is just plain common sense, man cannot live, in peace, with uncontrolled wolves, people have know that for hundreds of years throughout Europe!
-
First off, they didn't "re-introduce" anything. The wolves that they stocked were not the native wolves. They stocked much larger and more aggressive grey wolves.
Secondly, the people who pushed for the "re-stocking" were largely enemies to the hunting community. There were public meetings in every state and most ranchers and outfitters attended and voiced opposition and it was totally ignored.
I would love if these things could co-exist today with the world, as it exists, but without massive hunting and trapping efforts, they just can't. There are so many outfitters closing down because of them. The economic impact is massive. There was very little thought put into these decisions and 99% of these states residents are regretting what's been done.
I've heard them howling in Idaho and Quebec. I've seen their tracks and found their kills. I'd love to witness one as I'm hunting and tip my cap to a fellow predator, but we don't live in 1800 anymore. The world has changed, and sadly, they just don't fit here anymore.
Canada and Alaska are different stories.
-
Originally posted by jhg:
Originally posted by Frank V:
...Grand parents killed wolves for a reason.
Personally, I'd like to see them all gone.
They killed them all out of ignorance. If we can't figure out a way to manage them, its our failure.
Hating them because they have changed what we are used to is not a very good reason to wipe them out.
I'd like to think we have "evolved" enough to find a way to keep them around that balances the the various issues.
Wolves are a great animal to hate. Do some research on how/why we have chosen to hate them so much. It is pretty interesting.
Joshua [/b]
How is this for research.
http://www.tetonvalleynews.net/news/wolves-kill-sheep-near-fogg-hill/article_f79754fc-08eb-11e3-82d9-001a4bcf887a.html
-
Why do people assume our ancestors were ignorant of wildlife? They experienced it first hand. Not from a book! Those wolves need to go.
-
Should expect to see rises in grizzly attacks.
Grizzlies are learning to follow wolf packs and are scavenging well enough that hibernation is delayed and some are forgoing hibernation altogether.
-
The wolves in my part of the world (an active pack less than 10 miles from my land/cabin)were not "stocked" or re-introduced. Then came down from British Columbia of their own free will. Nobody told them where the border was, I guess.
As far as I can tell they like the land for the same reasons that I do... deer and elk and lots of wild space to live. Frankly I'm fine with them back in the neighborhood. They should be managed from a Biologically sustainable standpoint (by non-political biologists)... tag a few and let a few hunt and reproduce and live.
Here is my way of seeing it... the forests are anything but static... they are dynamic systems where for thousands of years, populations of everything have fluctuated. I have fewer deer on my place in 2013 because the forests are much more mature than they were in the 50'/60's and 70s. But I wouldn't advocate clear-cutting all of the firs and pines for the elk and deer. Just the way it is.
Deer, elk and wolves have co-existed for thousands and thousands of years in the American West... something tells me they will do just fine together now that they are back in touch.
Wolves are here to stay... that may mean tougher hunting. Personally, I am ok with that. I didn't take up trad-archery because it was easy and I don't want our woods to be big over-managed zoo where some wild critters get a free ride and others can't exist because they don't play nice.
But that's just me. I really like my woods wild and I don't mind sharing with some big predators that kill a few deer and big trees that shade out some of their browse. :goldtooth:
-
You guys advocating for wolves need to ask yourselves this question. Do you want wolves to be the hunters or do you want to be hunters. You claim to be bowhunters. You will not have any animals if this keeps up to bowhunt in the western USA. As a 40 year bowhunter in the state of Oregon I have seen our game herds go fron huge to zilch in just a few years from over predation. Not all of it wolves but a combination of new hunting laws passed by feel good people such as yourselves. They banned hunting bears with bait or dogs. They banned couger hunting with dogs by popular vote and not by sound biology . Then you add a few wolves , a poor economy upping poaching and in about 5 years you have so few animals that I fear that we will not even have a breeding population.
I hunted over a 30 x 30 mile square area in which in previous years I have seen from 50 to 300 elk and lots of deer every hunt day just recently. I saw a couple of old track, no animals at all except one small buck. I saw beautiful fields that used to have an elk track on every square foot and no tracks, no beds no droppings at all. I covered miles on foot and nothing. Its still beautiful elk habitat,. The water is there, The meadows are there . There are no other hunters at all,. There are no elk, no deer and little of anything else.
If that is what you want keep advocating for wolves.
Hunting will die in America/
God bless, Steve
-
A healthy eco system requires not only varied species but the land and habitat to support them. Not enough room in the lower 48 to sustain a population that can coexist with their prey base.
It seems like bison and elk were at the top of their menu in the west and until there is enough land to bring back millions of free ranging bison, the wolves will have to adapt to a foreign landscape with a prey base that has been manipulated by humans for 150 years.Their prey cannot migrate hundreds of mile in a year like they once did .
I think that it is unfortunate but they were reintroduced at the wrong time and place, too late for it to make biological sense.
-
I think Izzy's got it right. Wolf advocates are trying to turn back the clock on something that can't be brought back. How many subdivisions, shopping malls, air strips, etc existed in pre-settlement times? Our population was a few million versus 300 million+ and racing quickly to 400. The prey and predator species of today are unfortunately condensed into a much smaller environment as hunting lands are lost and populations grow. Competition between man and other predator's is intense and diminished prey populations are a certainty.
-
They were put here for our use and we are to have dominion over them. It is arrogant of us to think we know better than Him.
There is room for the wolf but they must be managed and we can't pretend the country is uninhabited by man.
I remember in the 19080's many of my scientist peers thought the wild turkey needed 10,000 acres of contiguous forest to make a comeback. They were of course wrong.
-
Thanks guys this is all great stuff! I wish these Fish and Game officials had never brought them in. That's what the greenies want though, for the wolves to do the hunting so we can't.
-
No state agency is responsible, it was the USFW. The states have paid a great price.
-
USFS in Montana... In Washington State they just walked in from British Columbia.
-
Just read a very disturbing article in Bear Hunting magazine about the wolves in Michigan. A log of bear dogs have been attacked and killed by wolves while trailing bears.
-
Originally posted by Al Dente:
Just read a very disturbing article in Bear Hunting magazine about the wolves in Michigan. A log of bear dogs have been attacked and killed by wolves while trailing bears.
That's happening in Montana too.
-
Wolf"Reintroduction"
A politically correct way of saying,Federally sponsored Eco Terrorism.
-
Originally posted by Traxx:
Wolf"Reintroduction"
A politically correct way of saying,Federally sponsored Eco Terrorism.
If that weren't so true it'd be funny. :mad:
Feds mess with a lot of stuff they should stay out of.
-
All a person has to do,is research who is behind the "Reintroduction" and who keeps filing lawsuits to stop any management attempts.
You will find,anti hunting groups that are labeled as domestic terrorist organizations,as well as those that support them and fund them.Some of the Animal rights groups that support it,leave me scratching my head.They cry about anyone,touching their golden wolf,but they dont seem to mind the depredation of other animals,wild or domestic.Amimal rights group,or anti hunting group?
Do a little research and tell me what you think.
-
All a person has to do,is research who is behind the "Reintroduction" and who keeps filing lawsuits to stop any management attempts.
You will find,anti hunting groups that are labeled as domestic terrorist organizations,as well as those that support them and fund them.Some of the Animal rights groups that support it,leave me scratching my head.They cry about anyone,touching their golden wolf,but they dont seem to mind the depredation of other animals,wild or domestic.Amimal rights group,or anti hunting group?
Do a little research and tell me what you think.