Trad Gang
Main Boards => Hunting Legislation & Policies => Topic started by: joe skipp on April 06, 2014, 10:42:00 AM
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Guess we lost the battle...
http://www.sportsmenslink.org/the-media-room/news/new-york-crossbow-use-approved-for-hunting
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The 150 feet setback law is a great thing. Crossbows, no good. I saw 1st hand last year the attraction the hold to poachers. I knew it was just a matter of time.
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well this is good news but didnt go far enough. xbows belong the entire archery season not just 14 days but at least its a foothold.
towards poachers-they dont obey laws. I know of poachers who have used compounds.
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Glad to see that it is not allowed where I hunt
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They legalized them here (TX) a couple years ago. It seems like EVERYONE was against it, but the manufacturers got it pushed through. I don't care if guys hunt with them. I just hate seeing them in an archery only season. I guess it helps the shops make a little bit more $$$ in sales, but it sure does not seem like ARCHERY to me!
I have always said that the only reason they are not called crossguns is because guns were not invented when these were and they had to call them something!
Bisch
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I'm in favor of Cross Guns,having their own seasons except for handicapped people.
The thing that gets me is they keep referring to people using them as sportsmen. Although some maybe, I think the majority will be anything but.
Since they will have their own season most of the "sportsmen" will choose the rifle.
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gotta ask, since you support xbows in an archery season for handicapped, would you support firearms in an archery season for the handicapped as well?
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......sad day for bowhunters....... :dunno:
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Originally posted by Cold Weather:
gotta ask, since you support xbows in an archery season for handicapped, would you support firearms in an archery season for the handicapped as well?
...maybe... ;) :p
I think Ron said it best... It's a sad day for Bowhunters.
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This is unfortunate. It's been said that it is a ploy to try to get back some votes from hunters after the SAFE Act was passed. In other words, buying votes.
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No one under 14 can use a crossbow
Not legal in Suffolk or Westchester Counties
DEC DOES NOT have Regulatory Authority over the crossbow. No further expansion unless through legislation.
Crossbows legal for small game
Crossbows legal last 14 days of SZ archery
Crossbows legal last 10 days of NZ archery
Crossbows legal during Regular (Firearms) season and through last archery/muzzleloader season
Crossbow users must purchase a MZ tag
Safety for new hunters is taught during the regular Sportsmen's Ed class, not the archery class.
Archery setback at 150'
Crossbow setback at 250'
Nothing to do about the crossbow, EVERYTHING to do about the SAFE Act. The Governor, the Republican Leadership and the Independent Democratic Council think that by including the crossbow in the archery season, this will make the firearms owners of NYS forget about their involvement with the passage of the SAFE Act.
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Originally posted by ron w:
......sad day for bowhunters....... :dunno:
Why is it a sad day, no one took anything away from bowhunters? You can still go out and hunt just like you have always hunted, they have not made it illegal for you to carry your bow.
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Originally posted by Cyclic-Rivers:
I'm in favor of Cross Guns,having their own seasons except for handicapped people.
The thing that gets me is they keep referring to people using them as sportsmen. Although some maybe, I think the majority will be anything but.
Since they will have their own season most of the "sportsmen" will choose the rifle.
If you give crossbows their own season, they would probably take days away from the bow season,I would much rather them be in a bow season than to loose days to a new season.
You should also not categorize most of the people that hunt with a crossbow as unsporting, you are being an elitist if you think that because you use a tradbow you are more of a so called sportsman. Grow up and quit looking down on people's legal weapon of choice. I know more people who think that my recurve is an unethical way to shoot a deer than the use of a crossbow. We are probably the largest minority in all of deer hunting it would probably be easier to outlaw our weapons than crossbows.
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Is it true everyone gets a trophy and certificate now for participating in the bow season? I thought I heard that somewhere.....
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Steve, I apologize that I overgeneralized potential crossgun shooters.
I'm Not being an elitist. I have no issues with Compound bows and do not look down on people for their use.
The issue I have with allowing Cross guns into Archery season is, It's a slippery slope.
Next, we will have arrow shooting air rifles. They already exist. Its the next step.
Our hard fought seasons were made long for a reason. Killing deer with Archery equipment is a challenge.
I think we need to draw a line in the sand.
Technology will be the demise of Bowhunting and the lengthy seasons. In time we will find shorter seasons because accuracy will extend past 40 yards.
Why should people let devices that are not Bows be allowed to crowd seasons? Lets Face it, Cross Guns shoot things that look like little arrows but they are "Darts". Devices that hold the string back have always been illegal without a permit.
I am not against the use of the Cross Gun, just do not believe it should be used during archery season.
I am for the preservation of Bowhunting, and for bowhunters to hold themselves to a higher standard of Ethical Conduct while in the field, not only to game pursued, but to others encountered and the land they hunt.
I do not put the people standing in line to buy their new bow, the day before season opener in this category. And yes it applies to all "sportsman" and all weapons not just the cross gun. However, anytime an Item comes out to make hunting "easier" It attracts the same people I will not associate myself with even if they call themselves a "sportsman" by their permit bought right.
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A few tidbits from the Michigan experience-
The vast majority of crossbow users were already bowhunters. From the research survey ordered, 74% of crossbow users had used a compound or traditional bow in the previous 3 seasons. Only 19% were firearms only hunters only, before using a crossbow and 6% of crossbow users were new to the sport (mostly youths and women in my anecdotal experience).
During the year before crossbows were legal, bowhunters using compounds and traditional bows showed a 42% success rate of taking at least one deer. In the 3 years of legal crossbows, crossbow users had lower success rates, 36%, 36% and 39% (2009-2011).
A couple other highlights from the study...
The number of people using crossbows jumped from roughly 46,000 in the first year after legalization to roughly 74,000 in year three.
In 2009, crossbow hunters killed 24,882 deer, or 5.6 percent of the 444,231 gun and bow total.
In 2010, crossbow hunters killed 38,310 deer, or 9.2 percent of the 417,850 total.
In 2011, crossbow hunters killed 54,902 deer, or 13 percent of the 422,014 total
The average age of all Michigan deer hunters is 42 and the average age of the Michigan crossbow user is 50.
After age 48, the majority of those hunting in archery season are using a crossbow. By the time they hit age 60, the ratio is roughly 2:1 in favor of crossbows.
From ages roughly 12-30 years old, the numbers are flip flopped, with those using compounds and traditional bows far outweighing crossbow users.
For adults, the ages with the highest usage of crossbows was ages 52-54. For compounds and traditional bows, the highest usage per age group was ages 39-41.
In 2006 (before crossbows legal), all Michigan deer hunters combined killed 691,000 deer and all archers combined killed 309,000 deer.
In 2011 (3 years after crossbows legal), all Michigan deer hunters killed 648,000 deer and all archery hunters killed 321,000 deer.
Other studies have shown that the typical deer hunter, considering all the fair weather and casual deer hunters, wants roughly only one deer for the freezer, per year. Freezer space is a consideration, on top of most deer hunters only eat venison on occasion. So knowing that, it appears that if anything, that crossbows have shifted 4% or 5% of the harvest from firearms season to archery season.
This is just my assumption from working at Cabela's, but with all the gray beards buying crossbows, I noticed few of the older guys wanted to climb a tree with the crossbow and add on sales of tent blinds was huge. My assumption is, many of these guys, while still having a pleasant day afield with their crossbow, have found that killing a deer from the ground, with wind and movement concerns isn't as easy as killing one from a treestand.
In my opinion, that's why the numbers are going to be a wash, in Michigan. Also, in Michigan deer baiting is huge and the older folks bait in higher numbers. If I was to guess, 90-95% of those guys 60 and older, using a crossbow out of a tent have some type of bait dumped. But what those guys will also find is, bait at 25 yards when you're at eye level isn't the same as bait out when you're 18' up in a tree. My guess is, lots of guys are busted my spooky Michigan doe's on a pile of beets and carrots, making the kill numbers about equal.
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your comments:
The issue I have with allowing Cross guns into Archery season is, It's a slippery slope.
Next, we will have arrow shooting air rifles. They already exist. Its the next step.
Our hard fought seasons were made long for a reason. Killing deer with Archery equipment is a challenge.
I think we need to draw a line in the sand.
I dont mean to be offensive, but when you call them "crossguns" you come across as extremely ignorant.
the word is crossbow.
they are definitely a type of archery equipment. It's very easy to demonstrate that.
towards the "slippery slope" that is poor logic as well. Xbows have been in archery season is WY, OH, and provinces like BC and Ont for decades. And this has not lead to non-archery equipment to be allowed in archery seasons.
why alledge something that has not occurred? And that you cannot show with facts?
it's no small wonder the anti xbow crowd keeps losing and losing.
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Cold Weather, you continually miss the point that others are trying to make and fall back to your same old story that really few people on this site actually believe.
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Originally posted by Cold Weather:
your comments:
The issue I have with allowing Cross guns into Archery season is, It's a slippery slope.
Next, we will have arrow shooting air rifles. They already exist. Its the next step.
Our hard fought seasons were made long for a reason. Killing deer with Archery equipment is a challenge.
I think we need to draw a line in the sand.
I dont mean to be offensive, but when you call them "crossguns" you come across as extremely ignorant.
the word is crossbow.
they are definitely a type of archery equipment. It's very easy to demonstrate that.
towards the "slippery slope" that is poor logic as well. Xbows have been in archery season is WY, OH, and provinces like BC and Ont for decades. And this has not lead to non-archery equipment to be allowed in archery seasons.
why alledge something that has not occurred? And that you cannot show with facts?
it's no small wonder the anti xbow crowd keeps losing and losing. [/b]
PLEASE ... here's the deal ...
call 'em by whatever name you like, but any stick and string that can be drawn, cocked 'n' locked IS NOT archery, let alone traditional archery.
trad gang is NOT about crossbows. period. we will NOT discuss them. that has always been our policy since day one.
but we will refer to crossbows whenever their use or legislation threatens traditional archery hunting.
thank you for your understanding.
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Quote:
"call 'em by whatever name you like, but any stick and string that can be drawn, cocked 'n' locked IS NOT archery, let alone traditional archery. "
Thanks Rob!!! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
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lol
of course it's archery. It's a type of a bow that shoots an arrow.
and was invented long before guns where even thought of.
one could argue compounds aren't archery. It's common to shoot the bow with a release-and now people are using laser rangefinders to determine distances.
calling a crossbow a "crossgun" just makes someone look ....silly to argue it's not archery equipment.
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Originally posted by Cold Weather:
lol
of course it's archery. It's a type of a bow that shoots an arrow.
and was invented long before guns where even thought of.
one could argue compounds aren't archery. It's common to shoot the bow with a release-and now people are using laser rangefinders to determine distances.
calling a crossbow a "crossgun" just makes someone look ....silly to argue it's not archery equipment.
i'm not gonna argue with you, but i am expecting you to please abide by our rules.
trad gang management does not consider the "crossbow" ("crossgun" et al) within the definition of "archery", and certainly not "traditional archery".
the reason for this is quite clear - it is a preloaded weapon that can be carried cocked 'n' locked within its own cognizance for great periods of time, like any firearm, whereas any stickbow requires the strength and abilities of a human to "cock 'n' lock" - and carry.
those are very great and vast differences. if you disagree, that is surely your entitlement, sir.
so, please - there will be no talk of the "crossbow" unless it is within the context of said weapon infringing in any manner on traditional bowhunting, and those discussions belong in this specific forum.
thank you for your understanding and please continue to enjoy trad gang.
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I want to know how the inclusion of crossbows have ever infringed on anyone's bowhunting. I choose to shoot a recurve, it is all I have ever used as a bow, I gave up on gun or muzzleloading years ago. I hunt with people who use a crossbow, they have also gave up all other forms of deer hunting.
I hunt and live in Ohio, we have one of the longest deer seasons in the country, we also have some of the best trophy deer hunting in the country and the crossbow has been legal for 40 plus years. If the crossbow was such a detriment to our bow seasons the state probably would not have added weeks to the season as they have done in recent years.
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Do crossbows threaten those of us who choose to use traditional bows? If so, how?
If anything, greater numbers of hunters involved in archery seasons preserves archery seasons and will likely expand archery seasons in the future, as hunter demographics age and fewer American's hunt due to the urbanization of the world.
From what I gather, at least for deer hunting nationally, archery participation is strong and firearms participation is waning, almost crashing. Archery hunters are becoming more gung ho and the typical guy that used to only hunt firearms opener is taking up golf, as he retires in the sun belt.
In the future, we'll likely see liberalized archery tags, and archery seasons lengthening, and a drop in the "old school" casual firearms only hunter.
One could make that case that, if anyone is hurting the growth of traditional archery, it's the online militant anti-crossbow folks that seem rather detached from what the real issues are in the real hunting world and with our demographics. The folks claiming that the majority of deer hunters are opposed to crossbows and that somehow some tin foil hat lobbyists in secret backrooms are involved of the increase in interest in crossbows is rather silly and ignorant of the reality.
I know several compound hunters that are open to trying traditional bows, until they read some of the conspiracy theories online and they really don't want to be associated with the tin foil hat crowd.
Our hurdle isn't the crossbow, it's more often obesity, Medicare and the Social Security card, among others. That's some of the drags on traditional archery, for some.
The more likely reality is, traditional archery grows because fellow compound shooters, the vast majority of bow hunters, grow bored with high tech bows and look for something else from their "bow" experience and turn to traditional bows.
Everyone reading has to ask themselves the question-Is traditional archery more or less popular now than it was 5 years ago? How about 10 years ago? What about 15 years ago? The truth is, traditional archery is a growing sport, more popular now than since the 1960's and crossbows have done nothing to hurt that growth or growing popularity. Instead, given the numbers and the data, the only case to be made is the counter-intuitive case that crossbows have actually helped traditional archery grow as a sport. A mind-blowing concept, but there's little to suggest otherwise, other than boogeyman cries of Wolf!
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I guess I am a militant anti-crossbow person. And I am damn proud of it. I have been in the trenches for over a decade to protect and preserve the integrity and sanctity of the archery seasons and archery only areas of NYS. I have witnessed the lies and deceit from lobbyists, and dubious outdoor writers paid for by the crossbow manufacturers. I have seen a shameless parade of "poster children" brought out to tug at heart strings, gathering pity for those pawns in the crossbow game. I have been called selfish, elitist, anti-hunter, animal rights activist, and a plethora of expletives. I do not subscribe to the "big tent" theory. I believe that archery seasons and their implements are meant to be challenging and difficult to master. That is why archery seasons take place prior to superior implements. I believe that the crossbow manufacturers decided long ago to intrude upon a season that was already in place, one that they could entice game agencies to carve up until they got full inclusion, rather than lobbying for their own season. They have a product to sell, and they want the firearms hunter to purchase their product. That is their demographic. As stated above, I am a militant anti-crossbow person, and damn proud of it.
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Al
now you are aware of the developments in the most popular form of archery bowhunting-that of a compound bow.
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Al,
Those are my feelings exactly. Thank you for expressing them.
Bowhunting is supposed to be more difficult than other methods and that is exactly what the allure is. It was never meant for everyone to be able to succeed at it and we shouldn't have to enable someone to do it if they can't physically
cut it. All I see now is more people trying to make it easier and that takes away from the idea.
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I don't understand why the rifle season ever gets any attention when people want an "extra" season in place. Why is it only the archery season?
Crossbow manufacturers albeit, market the product to rifle hunters, elderly and youth.
The disabled, with a permit already had the option.
Al, I am there with you. I am not anti crossbow, just anti lazy.
Just because rifle hunters are waning, just means archery season should be extended. The rifle season here is liberal yet no attacks on their season have been made,.
Already we welcomed a youth gun season in the middle of our archery season. I am ok with this, but don't understand, with the new inclusion why our whole season has been pawned off? Yet rifle hunters still do not have to defend theirs against anything.
Thanks for hearing my vent.
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personally, i have no problem with most other common hunting weapons - rifles, pistols, shotguns, spears, atlatls, crossbows, knives, whatever. i use, or have used, them all at one point or another.
i do have a problem when authorities consider crossbows as part of archery (stickbows and compounds).
crossbows are NOT "archery", period. i consider them the same as any preloaded, ready-to-fire, projectile weapon that can - if need be - be aimed and released/fired with one finger. it is what it is, pure and simple. common sense dictates it's just not archery.
for folks who can't draw and hold an archery bow, and want to hunt with a broadheaded arrow/bolt, a crossbow might be the weapon for them, and that's not a good thing, it's a great thing.
since a crossbow uses preloaded and stressed limbs (or cams) to contain the projectile (bolt), that is the only difference between that weapon and a firearm that uses expanding gas to push a projectile (bullet).
imho, crossbows should not be part of the archery hunting season, and should either find their own hunting time frame or be part of the regulated firearm hunting season.
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I myself have to agree. I have nothing against crossguns, but I do have something against their inclusion carte blanch into our archery season.
In many places deer numbers are still high, but that is not a forever thing. Here in WI the numbers are dropping. In UP Michigan they are not what they were years ago. The countryside is changing, maturing, there is less habitat and less food for deer, and what we have / had are hurting the ecosystem by eating it. This is not conjecture, but fact.
Less deer, put under stress of more and more hunting, usually means decreased opportunity for those that do the hunting. That is already happening here in Wisconsin.
Direct impact ? I don't gun hunt here because for years the woods were orange. You couldn't park in the parking areas provided on public grounds (cause they were full) and the idiots that showed up were boundless. These are folks that do nothing to prepare all year and then beginning the week prior to season, they become proficient experts, especially at shooting deer running full bore thru a thick marshland or stand of trees.
I am out walking, scouting, and enjoying the areas I hunt (public grounds) all year and I REALLY don't want to see the woods full during the archery season too. Selfish. . you bet.
Ease of use. . come on, if someone cannot pull and hold a 35# compound bow with 80% let off then they really can't do a lot of the other things that hunting requires. There were already allowances in place (WI) for those that are elder or disabled in some way.
The next is not fact, just my own view. I believe, with all my heart, that this crossbow thing has nothing to do with large groups of people WANTING it, but it was simply a huge market for some hucksters to make a ton of new money. That's all.
We as a people are gullible and stupid. Sound excited and tell someone how you can't live without "X" and then they gotta have it.
Don't agree ? Look at our clothing / fashion market, as just one example. Give me a break, way more than half of the clothing folks buy is never worn out by the original buyer, it just goes out of style, and heaven forbid we be seen wearing something out of style.
The masses didn't demand crossbow inclusion until big business talked them into needing it, on top of all the other crap they sell us.
MONEY MONEY MONEY that's all
ChuckC
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It's obvious some get really emotional about the subject, so I'll leave this topic with some light hearted thoughts. Then I'm going to go outside and shoot some vintage Bear bows. :)
Just for fun, replace "crossbow makers" with "Fred Bear" and then replace "crossbow" with "compound", then replace "2014" with "1974".
Then add in the line "Become a two season hunter" (Bear's marketing push to fool gullible gun hunters into buying a bow) with "idiots".
For more fun, replace "some hucksters" with "Darton, PSE, and Bowtech". Oh, and Fred Bear.
Did you know that the founder of Parker Crossbows was not only a close friend of Fred Bear, but he worked with and for Fred Bear from 1975-84 and hunted with Fred Bear at Grousehaven every year? Now why would Fred Bear be so easily dupped?
Other random thoughts-
If bow hunting is supposed to be certain level of "challenging", should ghillie suits be legal? How about treestands? Camo? Deer bait? Scopes on rifles? GPS units? ATV's?
Should there be a hunting test before being able to buy a license?
If Fred Bear was alive, when he eventually pushed to make crossbows legal because he was the ultimate marketer and businessman, would there even have been a fight "since Fred was for them"?
Should crossbows be regulated by ATF? Should a background check be required to buy a crossbow?
Speaking of being all about money...
BEAR ARCHERY CO. WILL MOVE
Grayling to lose firm next September
GRAYLING - The verdict came in at 7 a.m. Monday. Bear Archery Company, Crawford County's largest private employer, is moving its plant to Gainesville, Fla. The relocation decision, announced after 12 months of study, ended months of waiting and speculation and reaffirmed the worst fears of Crawford County economy watchers.
The loss of the archery company will be a serious blow to a community which has, for 30 years, been known as the archery capitol of the world. The plant presently provides approximately 342 jobs, expends a $4.5 million annual payroll and attracts more than 150,000 visitors a year via its museum.
Here's how the Detroit News handled it in their Nov. 20, 1977 edition:
The reason for leaving Grayling, according to Kelly, remains economic. "We're looking at the bottom line," he said. "We're paying an average $7 an hour, counting fringe benefits. Our nearest competitor pays $4. It's as simple as that. There's Ben Pearson in Arkansas, Jennings Archery in California, Precision Shooting Equipment in Illinois and Arizona. Every year the gap between what they pay their employees and what we have to pay ours gets wider. Overall wage rates in Michigan put us in a very noncompetitive position in our field. We have to hire labor in a market where the auto industry sets the pattern. We can't pay auto industry rates and sell bows and arrows."
When asked if the UAW strike was a factor in the decision to move, Kelly went on, "We would have moved had there been no strike. Except for the first three weeks, the strike had no effect on our operations. It's been no secret that we were planning to move. Townspeople have come to us and asked, 'What can we do to help you stay here?' Really, there was nothing they could do. It was a case of looking at the bottom line and finding that we could do better in a different location. It's best for the company, I'm responsible for the well-being of the company. Whatever is necessary, I will do."
AN UGLY BREAK-UP
In that issue of The Detroit News they also quoted Joan Rasmussen, the president of the Bear Archery Employee's Association at the time and one of the most visible strikers out front of the plant: "I don't talk to scabs. I'll never talk to them again."
She had been walking the picket line for 82 weeks by that time and continued for another year until we left town.
Rasmussen, a Bear employee for 26 years, went on, "I grew up in this town and I have a lot of friends here. I found out who they were that first day when out of 200 people, 40 crossed our picket line. My friends are all out here. Nobody in this town will hire us. They tell us we're unreliable because we're involved in a labor dispute. Sixty of our people were arrested for name-calling. Fifty-nine of the cases were dismissed as soon as they got to court. This town is getting exactly what it deserves from Bear."
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personally, the manufacturers economics are not my prime concern. it's the media, manufacturers and politicos who are avidly melding crossbows with archery bows that's of much greater concern. this misleading rationale - that since they both use pointy sticks with broadheads - they are one in the same is disturbingly wrong. it's like what we had to deal with before the archery-only seasons - hunting the woods with gun hunters. a crossbow IS a "gun" (of sorts). umm, no thanx, if i hafta walk the woods with others using preloaded weapons - guns and/or crossbows - count me out. guru's experience with a 30-30 bullet is a prime example of what can happen.
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This is not an archer.
But this shooter could probably win an Olympic gold medal in archery if they bent the rules.
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The point is this is not a hand held, hand drawn weapon and this doesn't belong in our Archery season. I don't want to hear Compounds are 30" long and it's just an vertical crossbow. No it isn't.
You want to hunt with a crossbow here in NY...fine.
Not during our Archery season. Give them a few weeks in December or have them share the woods with the smoke pole crowd. Again...this is NOT a hand held, hand draw weapon. I'm adamant, stubborn on this subject and I really don't give a S**** what people who support this thinks.
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that pic looks a little like my xbow.o My Exalibur has recurve limbs.
shoot one!
no doubt its a bow
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Fred Bear also espoused using "the POD", which nearly nobody else did. Just because he was for it doesn't mean anybody else was. Fred shot a recurve, he found no use for compounds, and, as you pointed out, that bottom line is everything.
ChuckC
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folks, there will be no more discussion or debate about whether crossbows are, or are not, considered "archery".
trad gang admin does NOT consider crossbows within the definition of "archery". we will not entertain arguments to the contrary, so please do not bother sending us emails or pm's.
we ONLY allow non-trad archery weapons threads with regards to how such weapons might affect our trad archery bowhunting seasons, mostly in terms of legislation and politics.
thank you for your understanding.
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I still want to know how a crossbow hunter affects my choice of hunting with my recurve, we choose to hunt with our traditional bows, they choose to hunt with a crossbow.
We can still go to the woods and hung with our bows and we are the minority in archery. Let's keep making a big stink and have them turn the tables on us and try to get our bows banned from archery season.
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Steve, of course it doesn't impact your choice to use a recurve. But it looks like anybody that wants to hunt with a cross bow in NY will be required to purchase a MUZZLELOADER tag, not an archery tag. Is that an underhanded way to get muzzleloaders into archery season, which is what we are worried about?
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consider this ...
during hunting season, when you are stalking game in the bush, or up a tree hunting deer or bear, at the exact same time do you mind sharing the woods with a centerfire firearm hunter, or a muzzleloader hunter, or a crossbow hunter? all preloaded weapons with a finger on a trigger.
it's not about the weapon of choice, it's about immediately sharing your hunting venue with a non-archery weapon hunter - and at the very least, considering crossbows as archery - no, it's NOT. and no, no thank you.
this is clearly a money game, because logic and common sense aren't part of the grand scheme.
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Rob, another consideration, not a safety factor, but one that could, I said COULD, affect my season.
Seasons are based upon need, with many or most Departments looking to effect a certain kill and also to present the maximum user hours to achieve that kill. In other words, If bows were 100 % effective (success rate). . if everybody that carried a bow killed a deer, or two, or three, then a certain kill would be expected. In addition, if the number of folks that carry a bow double, it stands to reason that the total kill (but not necessarily the success rate) will increase. Not to mention the crowds that would be using the same areas.
For much of the US that sort of achievement could not support a a multi month season. Face it, I am allowed to carry my bow in WI (for deer) from mid September till the end of the year. That would not be possible with high success rates.
By continually adding weapons or improvements to the existing weapons that boost the success rate, it stands to reason that it will affect my season down the road. Sure, there have been high numbers of deer for the past 10 - 15 years, but that wasn't the way it was in the past and it won't remain that way forever.
ChuckC
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good thoughts, chuck.
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Originally posted by Rob DiStefano:
consider this ...
during hunting season, when you are stalking game in the bush, or up a tree hunting deer or bear, at the exact same time do you mind sharing the woods with a centerfire firearm hunter, or a muzzleloader hunter, or a crossbow hunter? all preloaded weapons with a finger on a trigger.
it's not about the weapon of choice, it's about immediately sharing your hunting venue with a non-archery weapon hunter - and at the very least, considering crossbows as archery - no, it's NOT. and no, no thank you.
this is clearly a money game, because logic and common sense aren't part of the grand scheme.
Very well said, Rob.
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My concern is sharing the woods with convicted felons who are not allowed to use firearms and do not even want to develop the skill set needed for a compound bow.
In Maryland, there is a radio host/convicted felon who uses a crossbow because he can't use gunpowder. This guy is a jovial but dirty ex-cop, and was convicted for misusing funds. This got me thinking about less harmless felons roaming the woods with cross bows.
Loved the short story by Richard Connell, but I don't want to become "The Most Dangerous Game" for some ex-con with an itchy trigger finger.
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Once again people are letting emotions get in front of facts. Ohio has one of the longest seasons in the country starting in September and lasting into Febuary, we also have some of the best trophy hunting in the US and all of this with crossbows being legal for 40 plus years.
We do not have people walking around the woods shooting at movement with crossbows so the hand on the trigger analogy holds no water.
That same criminal can use a recurve, but I guess that if they do use a recurve it would be alright because they are shooting traditional.
I want to see facts about how the use of crossbows is detrimental to archery seasons, so far I have seen nothing from anyone to prove where seasons or bag limits have been lowered because of crossbows.
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plain and simple -
i don't care much about bag limits or the criminal element, though both are issues of concern.
as a bowhunter, there is NO WAY i wanna be afield or in the bush or even up a tree, with other hunters using any weapon that's preloaded and that can be fired with one finger.
lumping in crossbows with archery bows allows this to happen.
this is wrong.
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Ohio also has a 6-10 day firearms season, based solely on the previous years harvest totals. the ratio of crossbow killed deer to bow killed deer is 3-2, so crossbows do in fact affect harvest totals.
If ANY gun hunter in NYS is ready to give up any or all of their 4 week season, just look at Ohio and see what may lie ahead.
In the eyes of a gun hating Governor, he gave you the crossbow to hunt with, so why do you need your rifles, pistols, and shotguns. MZ's will be the next threat to the archery seasons coming from the DEC. Then the full gun ban will really begin. But hey, this is what the sportsmen wanted.
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I guess there are no small game seasons in NJ. There are always other hunters out during bow season with guns, weather they are after squirrels, turkeys, waterfowl, bunnies etc. once again emotion not facts are getting ahead of you.
The gun season in Ohio has always been the week after Thanksgiving starting on Monday and running for a week, it does not fluctuate year to year. We did have a 2 day extra season in December which wax eliminated, they added 2 days in October to muzzloader for does only last year. Their is also a 2 day youth season the weekend before firearm season and a 4 day muzzloader season in January.
In the 14 years I have lived here I have only seen the ODNR increase our season lengths, not diminishing them. Before I moved here I was as against crossbows as many of you are until I looked at the facts and found out my fears were baseless.
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First, we are talking about NY, not NJ. Second, yes there is a small game season where firearms are used, but please do not try to tell me that the deer are spooked from small game hunting just like when the over 500,000 firearms hunters enter the woods on opening day. They know the difference. They go on high alert and change their patterns once the barrage starts. Third, crossbows have been legal in Ohio for close to 30 years, maybe more, so the crossbow has influenced deer harvest totals and deer seasons since before you moved there. Fourth, in PA, where they got full inclusion 4 or 5 years ago, the PGC is concerned about the crossbow killing too many deer. Just last year, crossbows took 48% of ALL deer killed. Please do not tell me these facts are baseless and come from emotions running high. The PGC pretty much admitted they made a mistake in their liberal crossbow policy. They are concerned that there will not be enough bucks to breed and the herd numbers will be lower because of it.
I'm done defending my position and trying to present facts and data to someone who has drank the crossbow Kool Aid. I will maintain my militant anti-crossbow stance and be proud of it.
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Steve - and how long is your gun season, 5 days? In NY, it is several weeks long. And you will find that the gun season is the most protected thing in the DEC world in NYS. So when the impact of thousand of xbow hunters are felt, it is not the gun season that will be impacted but the archery season. That season will have dates shortened and/or limits changed, not the gun season. Hell, the DEC could not even use the existing gun season for a youth GUN weekend, it had to go in archery season. The NY archery season is slowly getting sliced and diced with non-archery equipment, including guns and now xbows. A few years ago we came within an inch of having muzzleloaders in the archery season. The writing on the wall is and has been quite clear in NY.
You need to look no further than PA who recently legalized xbows to see the negative impacts on the archery season (and deer hunting in general).
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Originally posted by adkarcher:
Steve - and how long is your gun season, 5 days? In NY, it is several weeks long. And you will find that the gun season is the most protected thing in the DEC world in NYS. So when the impact of thousand of xbow hunters are felt, it is not the gun season that will be impacted but the archery season. That season will have dates shortened and/or limits changed, not the gun season. Hell, the DEC could not even use the existing gun season for a youth GUN weekend, it had to go in archery season. The NY archery season is slowly getting sliced and diced with non-archery equipment, including guns and now xbows. A few years ago we came within an inch of having muzzleloaders in the archery season. The writing on the wall is and has been quite clear in NY.
You need to look no further than PA who recently legalized xbows to see the negative impacts on the archery season (and deer hunting in general).
slug season is 7 day, muzzeloader is up to 6 days i believe now. I do not see the negative impacts in the deer herd as i do see in the quality of hunts. The new thing in ohio is to hunt a property until you get caught and then generally speaking, the landowners wont press charges. there are more people in the woods during bow now and the pressure to find huntable land has been strained. There are several factors in that not just crossbows. I have seen more impact on deer herds from inept deer management than i have the weapon.
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I was disheartened to read about the new X-bow regs in the latest NYB publication. Not sure why they didn't do the obvious thing, which would have been to link them to muzzleloading expanded seasons and use by the handicapped. Giving them the last 2 weeks of early archery in the SZ sounds, as Charlie said, like a slippery slope. I'm not sure what the reality will be as participation in archery season is decreasing from what I can tell, and Xbows aren't cheap and don't guarantee success, even apart from their inherent heavy ugliness. Gun hunters will continue to be gun hunters, and poachers shoot whatever and whenever they please regardless. I am trying to adopt a wait-and-see attitude. I do think this was inevitable given the manufacturer pressure--Xbows are everywhere in the sports mags and on TV.......
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Archery license sales and participation have in fact been on the rise for about a decade now. One of the only things going in a positive direction in NYS. But on a sad note, the Albany County Sheriff's Office is investigating a horse that was killed by a high powered crossbow in Westerlo this weekend. Belle the horse was shot in the lung while in her pasture.
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Cross Bows have not even made it to deer season and now they are Killing horses.
http://www.timesunion.com/local/article/Horse-killed-by-arrow-to-the-lungs-5487453.php
Al, The type of people these weapons attract, will in no way, help Archery and archery hunting.
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Originally posted by Cyclic-Rivers:
... Al, The type of people these weapons attract, will in no way, help Archery and archery hunting.
absolutely, because the naive (i'm being kind) general public can't tell the difference between bows and crossbows. it's lose-lose situation for archery, trad archery in particular.
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I took a Bowhunter Ed. coarse back in the 1970's when it became mandatory.
My oldest son Kevin, took his Bowhunter Ed. coarse when he was 14.
My youngest son Tyler, took his Bowhunter Ed. coarse when he was 12.
To buy a NYS Bowhunting Privledge with your hunting license, you have to show proof of taking a Bowhunter Ed. coarse.
To hunt with a Crossbow... You have to buy a NYS Muzzleloading Privledge, with your hunting license. Then, you must go on the NYSDEC website, Take the on-line "Crossbow Safety Coarse", Then, print out & sign the "certificate card" and carry it with your license.....
Then, You can hunt during the Bow Season... :confused: :dunno:
Makes no sense to me..........
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Originally posted by Steve in Canton:
Originally posted by Cyclic-Rivers:
I'm in favor of Cross Guns,having their own seasons except for handicapped people.
The thing that gets me is they keep referring to people using them as sportsmen. Although some maybe, I think the majority will be anything but.
Since they will have their own season most of the "sportsmen" will choose the rifle.
If you give crossbows their own season, they would probably take days away from the bow season,I would much rather them be in a bow season than to loose days to a new season.
You should also not categorize most of the people that hunt with a crossbow as unsporting, you are being an elitist if you think that because you use a tradbow you are more of a so called sportsman. Grow up and quit looking down on people's legal weapon of choice. I know more people who think that my recurve is an unethical way to shoot a deer than the use of a crossbow. We are probably the largest minority in all of deer hunting it would probably be easier to outlaw our weapons than crossbows. [/b]
the archery season should NOT be encroached upon nor watered down due to x-guns. x-guns ARE guns because they are preloaded weapons and as such they belong with the firearm season.
leave us real bowhunters alone!
'nuff said.
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Originally posted by Steve in Canton:
Originally posted by Cyclic-Rivers:
I'm in favor of Cross Guns,having their own seasons except for handicapped people.
The thing that gets me is they keep referring to people using them as sportsmen. Although some maybe, I think the majority will be anything but.
Since they will have their own season most of the "sportsmen" will choose the rifle.
If you give crossbows their own season, they would probably take days away from the bow season,I would much rather them be in a bow season than to loose days to a new season.
You should also not categorize most of the people that hunt with a crossbow as unsporting, you are being an elitist if you think that because you use a tradbow you are more of a so called sportsman. Grow up and quit looking down on people's legal weapon of choice. I know more people who think that my recurve is an unethical way to shoot a deer than the use of a crossbow. We are probably the largest minority in all of deer hunting it would probably be easier to outlaw our weapons than crossbows. [/b]
the archery season should NOT be encroached upon nor watered down due to x-guns. x-guns ARE guns because they are preloaded weapons and as such they belong with the firearm season.
leave us real bowhunters alone!
'nuff said.
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They should put em w muzzleloader
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I'm from Ohio and have hunted with xbows, compounds, and now trad equipment. IMO, if one wants to drag all that extra machinery and weight in the woods, let'em. I feel for them. Sorry, NY, that you are losing the xbow battle. But believe me, all is not lost. Most xbow hunters exert about much effort into their hunting as they do being proficient with their weapon. I know what I derive the most satisfaction hunting with.
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Maryland just allowed the Airbow into firearm season for next year. Pretty soon they will be pushing for inclusion into archery season and to tell you the truth the airbow is about the same as a crossbow. The slippery slope has started.
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Originally posted by Mint:
Maryland just allowed the Airbow into firearm season for next year. Pretty soon they will be pushing for inclusion into archery season and to tell you the truth the airbow is about the same as a crossbow. The slippery slope has started.
we are a doomed society where power is the goal and money is the objective and clearly the majority of those in control have neither ethics, morals or common sense.
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So far there has not been any Bills introduced for the AirBow to be used during any hunting season in NYS. However, that does not mean that there will not be. There are several crossbow Bills in both houses, most notably, Full Inclusion Bills. Assembly Bill A00479 and Senate Bill S01386 would expand crossbow usage to full inclusion throughout the entire archery seasons. These Bills will no doubt lead the way for the AirBow to be next.
Please contact the Legislators who sponsored these Bills and the Chairmen of the respective Environmental Conservation Committees. Voice your opposition and concerns to them.
Assembly Bill A00479
EnCon Chairman Englebright
Sponsor: Gunther
Co-Sponsors: Lupardo, Woerner, Brindisi, Miller B., Raia
Senate Bill S01386
EnCon Chairman O'Mara
Sponsor: Gallivan
Co-Sponsors: Akshar, Bonacic, Griffo, Helming,
Lanza, Little, Marchione, Ortt, Ritchie, Robach, Seward, Valesky
Please write a letter and protect the archery sesons.
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S1386A is on the Senate EnCon Committee agenda for tomorrow. I urge you to call the Senate EnCon Members below and ask them to vote "NO" when it is brought to the floor.
Chairman O'Mara- 518-455-2091
Senator LaValle- 518-455-3121
Senator Marcellino 518-455-2390
Senator Phillips- 518-455-3265
Senator Kaminsky- 518-455-3401
Senator Avella- 518-455-2210
Senator Addabbo- 518-455-2322
Senator Hoylman- 518-455-2451
Senator Latimer- 518-455-2031
Senator Little- 518-455-2811
Senator Tedisco- 518-455-2181
Senator Funke- 518-455-2215
Senator Ortt- 518-455-2024
The crossbow is already legal during the last two weeks of archery season, as well as the entire regular (firearms) season. It is pre-cocked, pre-loaded, shouldered and fired like a rifle, and is capable of 100 yard shots. Not archery in any sense or definition.
The latest ad for RAVIN Crossbows says it all:
"Meet your next rifle."
Light up the phones in Albany please.