Trad Gang
Main Boards => Hunting Legislation & Policies => Topic started by: Ron Vought on December 14, 2014, 08:00:00 AM
-
My response to Crossgun use in PA on another forum. The crossgun crowd was using their typical response to bashing them and that we are all hunters. Maybe harsh to some but to the point and needed to be said. Below is my response....
No its not an embarrassment to bash each other especially when a weapon like the crossgun and technology advancements can have a negative impact on our archery season. See the problem here is that everyone wants their cake and eat it too. Problem is you can't manage a herd and have advancements in technology driving the harvest allocations over their capacity. At some point something has to give. We live in a society where some want instantaneous success. I call them opportunists. I just question why people shoot a crossgun. Nine times out of ten it is because they want instantaneous success without putting any time into practice or learning woodsman skills. When your equipment could have a negative impact on our seasons we are not "ALL HUNTERS". We have to draw the line somewhere and I feel its through equipment restrictions and the removal of the crossgun during archery season. Probably too late because most bow hunters wanted their cake and it too. The thirst for instantaneous success and technology enhancements overshadowed the inclusion of the crossgun.
I really enjoy watching these posts and see the sugar coating that is going on with the use of the crossgun. Folks its shoulder held, locked, cocked and scoped. Very effective weapon!! No one that shoots a crossgun is talking about its advanced capability and negative impact it can have on our bow season here in PA....because most are opportunists.
It's funny because many years ago when talking about equipment restrictions we saw this coming. I am glad that the mods here left this thread stay because most other forums are removing these posts because they are licking the boots of the manufactures (i.e crossguns)
Ron
-
I feel as you do Ron. If they include crossbows, They should just do away with all special seasons and just have "hunting season".
Not that I advocate that, but its the same darn thing.
Every cross bow owner I know, which is only 8, have not filled a bow tag in at least a year. ALL killed deer this year with their cross bows. coincidence??? probably not.
-
Charlie - I can honestly say that after some back and forth on another forum with guys that shoot crossguns I now understand them better. First of all they strive for instantaneous success. They always try to place their weapon in the same category as the compound bow in regards to proficiency and effectiveness. They actually convince themselves that there is some kind of challenge to using a crossgun. Normally looking for the longer shot with the aid of a scoped, locked, cocked and shoulder held weapon. The other one is that the weapon is legal so basically shut up and deal with it. They also throw out the bashing flag when I pinned them into a debate...of course we are all hunters and should except the crossgun with open arms. The big one that leaves me scratching my head is that they don't see the negative impact that their choice of weapon could have on the archery season. It's definitely a new breed of hunter that just doesn't care about how anyone feels or the negative impact they will have on our archery seasons. The sum it up they are opportunists looking for a short cut and disguise to gain entry into the archery season. I was also told that I show no respect for them because I call their weapon a CROSSGUN. I did agree in partial with with them that I have no respect for the CROSSGUN :)
The use of the crossgun in archery season I can guarantee will be no good for bow hunters.
Ron
-
I'm with you Ron. Crossbows are for people who want "instant gratification" and do not want to put forth the effort and time. It burns me when I come across crossbowers and they consider what they are doing is bowhunting. "NOT" even close. I remember my father running my oldest brother out the house when he brought a crossbow over to his house. He said get that contraption off his property!! Since legalizing crossbows in Delaware, we have found several bolts on my family's property that was obviously shot from the roadway. And last year my one brother shot a gimpy doe that had a bolt buried in her hip. I have no use for them or want them in the woods. But if one should have a legit medical issue, then by all means, use one. These crossbows will have a long range negative effect on our deer herds as well as our bowhunting season in the years to come. That's my 2 cents
-
I agree with you Ron 100%
They cannot see the negative impacts of Crossbow use because they are so focused on Wanting to use One, they are not thinking about negatives, merely building a wall when they hear opposition.
That's quite normal in today's selfish instant gratification society.
I met a guy at a DNR check station last fall who came in bragging he shot the biggest deer anyone has ever seen in the county. The lasy said he was lying because he was only in her shop an hour before buying his license and bragging he bought the best cross bow on the market.
Bought crossgun at 3 pm
bought license at 3:45 pm
Shot deer at 4:20 pm.
Then the kind of guy he was showed through when he was bashing the deer. (mix in all sorts of cuss words) he didn't care about the meat, the coyotes can have it and he was going back for the antlers in the morning.
-
I wish you guys would stop talking negative about crossbows. They bring more people into "archery" as you can see from this photo. This young man is being instructed on how to properly hold the "bow" and direct the projectile to the target. I'm not sure if he's using the gap method or just instinctive. I see he's using a release aid so obviously a more modern style of shooting. It doesn't look like a thumb ring will work here. I'm not sure which bowyer made it nor am I familiar with the wood combination in that riser.
Sorry guys, I couldn't help myself. The da-- things are legal now for the whole archery season in Maryland, have been for a while. I get it,...that its a leathal and effective weapon, but I'll be dam--- if it's archery. My biggest fear with them is safety.
The picture is from the Maryland Crossbow Federation website where they state "We earned you the right to hunt with your crossbow the entire hunting season." You can bet they will be working with other state federations to do the same in every state. In Maryland that means they can hunt with a crossbow from September 5 - January 31.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It's more than enuf to have to talk about CROSSGUNS, but there will be NO images of such machines allowed @ Trad Gang
-
Just because they are legal doesn't just make it archery or bowhunting. You need to look at the weapon and understand there could be a negative impact by adding them into the bow season. If the kill goes above and beyond the biologist forecast the season will never be extended or worst case shortened. I think most bowhunters just assume their season will stay intact. Here in PA the cross gun kills are under the microscope and closely being monitored. I have never heard or seen concern coming from PA in regards to bowhunters and their harvest percentage until the crossgun was implemented. The way I see it the crossgun should not be legal in bow season due to it capability and impact on the season.
Sorry but I don't feel they are some how part of archery or bowhunting. Where do we draw the line on the true identity of bowhunting and archery....when a crossgun fires a bolt at 1,000 FPS with a 209 primer?
Ron
-
Originally posted by Hatrick:
I wish you guys would stop talking negative about crossbows. They bring more people into "archery" as you can see from this photo....
i could care a rat's pitoot less about the notion of crossguns "bringing more people into archery" because CROSSGUNS ARE NOT ARCHERY.
i have nothing against crossguns EXCEPT when the powers that be decide that these machines are the same as traditional archery bows, let alone wheel bows. THAT is total NONSENSE.
CROSSGUNS have NOTHING whatsoever to do with ARCHERY!
one doesn't need to be a rocket scientist to see that they are "GUNS", not "BOWS"! WHY??? - because they are preloaded and can be kept in that state for hours if not dayze
- because a hunting weight crossgun can be cocked with a tool that can operated by a child
- because a hunting weight crossgun can be "fired" by a child
- because they ARE "guns"
crossguns belong in the GUN hunting seasons, NOT the ARCHERY hunting seasons.
we need to have archers, particularly traditional bowhunters, stop promoting crossguns - those folks can do that themselves, and all we're doing is shooting ourselves in the head.
-
READ THE SARCASAM IN MY POST GUYS!!!
That's why I posted the picture (sorry about that Rob) of that stupid looking contraption thats been allowed in the archery season. I would be the last person in the State of Maryland to ever advocate for their inclusion in the "archery" season. They're like the plague moving from state to state.
-
I'm convinced this is the only site left on the Internet where we can have a debate about the crossgun. All I can say is there must be a lot of 'licking the manufactures boots' going on within the hunting community. Really sad to see.
Ron
-
I agree with everyone that crossbows are not in the same category as compounds and I'll not even bring trad gear into this comparison. They are simply easier to be lethal with. That being said, and I said this in another thread, I've seen enough unprepared people taking their compounds out hunting and wounding several deer a season. These people had no business shooting at a deer with a bow. Sighting your bow in 2 days before the opener does not an archer make. I'd rather these people shoot crossbows and kill the first deer they shoot at rather then hear them talk about losing deer after deer.
-
Originally posted by Krex1010:
I agree with everyone that crossbows are not in the same category as compounds and I'll not even bring trad gear into this comparison. They are simply easier to be lethal with. That being said, and I said this in another thread, I've seen enough unprepared people taking their compounds out hunting and wounding several deer a season. These people had no business shooting at a deer with a bow. Sighting your bow in 2 days before the opener does not an archer make. I'd rather these people shoot crossbows and kill the first deer they shoot at rather then hear them talk about losing deer after deer.
i agree.
however, not in archery season because crossguns have nothing whatsoever to do with archery, be it a trad bow or a cable bow. '
that IS the problem - treating a crossgun as if it's archery.
-
Rob, I agree with you in the principle of your statement. Crossbows are not an archery weapon. But there is the way we want things and then there is the way things are. Unfortunately there is a segment of archery season hunters who are not going to practice and prepare for archery hunting. I've seen it, Wedenesday before a Saturday opener they start thinking about hunting, uncase their bow for the first time in months, take a few practice shots and go hunting. We can't force these guys to practice, and we can't prevent them from going hunting. I know crossbows aren't archery tools, but I'd rather these guys shoot crossbows and wound less deer than force them to use bows they have no business aiming at an animal because I want my archery season to fit my own definition of archery.
-
I am thinking that folks that are gonna not take it seriously, are gonna not take it seriously, period. They want a certain thing and they want it now. Put a crossgun in their hands and I will bet that they take shots they wouldn't have before.
And how tough is it to shoot 20 yards with a compound ? Nope, they want (perceived) easier and they want to stretch their shot in case the "big one" walks thru the woodlot anywhere near to them (making it "their deer, right?).
Besides. . . I really don't WANT more folks in the woods. I believe that if we actually doubled the number of licensed hunters in our population, it wouldn't change anything in terms of voting or political clout. Hell, nobody goes out of their way to be politically active as it is now.
ChuckC
-
if you don't believe, as i do, that crossguns don't belong in the archery hunting season(s), then don't offer an alternative explanation that actually tells the powers that be it's ok to mix archery bows and crossguns.
i could give a rat's pitoot for how easy it should/could be for someone to get afield and attempt to kill stuff - i sure as heck don't want those kinda "hunters" getting in my way.
look at what happened to guru when some stupid kid decided he was a deer and shot him with a 30-30 slug. could as easily have been the bolt from a x-gun.
there is no reason for hunting to be "fast food easy". in fact, it can never be, and to think otherwise is at least dangerous because hunting mixes lethal weapons and humans in the same venue as the game hunted.
-
The majority of crossgun hunters that I talk too hunt with the crossgun because they have "limited time" and are too busy to practice with a hand drawn bow. Makes me laugh because the first thing that goes through my head is that they are just plain lazy. They basically admit the crossgun is a shortcut for them so I also label them 'opportunists'. I just scratch my head after talking to crossgun hunters and their mindset on archery. They are just looking for something easy that extends their hunting opportunity. Just a way different crowd of people we could probably do without in the woods.
Ron
-
I don't know about labeling them all lazy Ron, my cousin has 4 kids, works his behind off for about 60 hours a week, helps out in youth sports, always puts his family first. He also cannot shoot a bow at his house so he has to come to my house or another place to shoot. He also loves to hunt, he may only have time to get out 4 or 5 days a year. Should he have to wait to hunt until his kids are older and he has more time to devote to archery? I mean who am I to tell him he's wrong? I never consider myself a more noble hunter because I'm choosing to go the trad route. Take a broader view, I'm sure we all do things in life that someone could point at and say "that's the easy way." I don't know, maybe I'm off base, it wouldn't be the first time, and please understand I'm not judging anyone for their feelings, this is just debate which I think is healthy.
-
i hear ya, keith, and there's valid merit to what you say. hopefully yer cousin knows his limits and can make a reasonably good call when to drop the string, be it trad bow or wheel bow or crossgun.
but that is not the real issue at hand.
it's about the difference between a hand drawn bow and a latched and locked ready-to-fire finger-on-the-trigger crossgun.
it's about the politico's decision that crossguns are archery, when clearly they are not.
i don't want gun hunters sharing the same hunting time slot and venue as a bowhunter, no matter what style of hand drawn bow is used.
-
Keith most of the people who I know and talk to about a crossgun want instantaneous success and opportunity...period. They don't want to put anytime into practicing with a hand drawn bow. Too me its just lazy but maybe I see things differently. Your right not all are lazy but I have to ask why one would want to use a crossgun to begin with. I went out with my dad at 12 years old with a Bear recurve and couldn't wait to get back into the woods once we left for the day of ground hunting and stalking. It wasn't about insteaneous success and opportunity. Maybe a earlier generation mindset but we were taught woodsman skills and when you did get a deer you felt like it was earned.
Ron
-
Ron, I don't know about you, but I don't expect everyone else to want to do things the same way as me. Most of the guys I know who use crossbows are passionate hunters, they scout, they improve habitat, most have diverse hunting interests. I mean I would feel like a snob to say that the way I choose to do something is the only honorable and proper way to do something. I hear plenty of people who question why I would want to use a traditional bow, some people feel we owe it to the animal we hunt to be the most accurate, humane killer we can be, and let's be honest, there are only so many Howard Hills, the vast majority of us will never shoot our trad bows as well as a compound or crossbow, but we make our own choice. I personally will never hunt an animal I don't enjoy eating (wolf, coyote, bear) and I will never go on a guided hunt, because I want to be responsible for finding my own animal in my home woods, but i would never judge another hunter who chooses to hunt wolves or go on a guided elk hunt. Hunt and let hunt my friend, we only live once seize your own day and let others do the same.
-
I really don't care about the crossgun as a weapon itself but I do care about the negative impact it could possibly have on our archery seasons. I think most just assume the bow season will stay in tact however for example if the biologists feel that too many bucks are being taken prior to the rut then there could be an impact to our season. The crossguns in PA are driving harvest limits upwards. The crossgun is the main contributor. As more people rush out and buy crossguns my fear is our season is in jeopardy of being shortened and there is definitely no opportunity at an extension. Everyone has to think about the deer management initiatives and the impact a weapon can have on our seasons.
Ron
-
I hear you there Ron. I don't want the season shortened. I'm in south east pa as well, crossbows have been legal here for about 10 years ( that's a guess on my part) but the archery season has been opening earlier the last few years, basically we can hunt from late September through the end of January with only a couple days off. Is there serious talk of shortening the season? Or is it just a fear? As an aside Ron, please don't take offense to my playing devils advocate to you, Im enjoying this discussion with you.
-
All it takes is a couple bad winters or a bout of blue tongue and everything changes.
Wisconsin had more tags than I would ever want to fill, including unlimited doe tags for my area, till this year.
During 2014 nearly half the state had no doe tags. Now add a whole bunch more hunters that have a way better chance of killing something to the mix and what is the likely outcome ?
Archery season was made to encompass a long period of time because the odds of success were a lot smaller than during gun season. If we keep making it easier and the odds keep go up, it will affect the seasons, one way or another.
Not fear, not guess, but future factoid.
We have been blessed, or cursed with large burgeoning deer herds during the last twenty or so years. It wasn't always like that and it won't always be like that.
ChuckC
-
Chuck I don't know of anything that's future factoid besides death, taxes and that I'll do something in the next few days that will annoy my wife lol. I get it, this is a traditional archery forum and crossbows go against everything that most people here believe in. I just don't buy them as a boogieman that is ruining archery hunting. In Pennsylvania license sales haven't gone up significantly since they were legalized, and I don't think archery tag sales have increased significantly either, it's basically the same hunters only some have crossbows, maybe a few guys that used to just hunt rifle now buy archery tags. I hang with a lot of hunters, all different types. I'm not old but Im not a young pup either. Here's what I've seen, some guys fill tags every year, some don't. The weapon doesn't make the hunter, I know guys that killed several deer every year with a compound and switched to crossbows, they kill the same deer. I know guys who didn't fill tags with compounds and still don't since they switched to crossbows. I know rifle hunters that get deer every year and rifle hunters that go years between kills. Give a lazy compound hunter a crossbow and he won't all of a sudden be stacking deer up, because he won't do the work it takes to scout and get on deer. Crossbows may be rearranging the deer harvest a little as some guys that didn't used to archery hunt now do, but if they are a good hunter that just means that they kill a buck in October instead of a month later when rifle season opens.
-
keith, perhaps you miss the point of some, including me.
i have nothing against the crossbow per se ... except when it morphs into a crossgun, is put into the categories of "archery" and "bowhunting", and is allowed to be used during archery hunting season, at archery hunting venues.
crossguns take the sport of killing game into the realm of the firearm.
cocked 'n' locked is the defining prime concern. these are weapons that any fool who has a trigger finger can use. a mere child can load and hunt with a 150# crossgun, just as easily as he/she can with a winchester .30-30 as both are preloaded and both easily fired.
there are clearly two camps of bowhunters, with trad bows the most primitive, followed by the wheel and cam crowd. crossguns both trump those easily and have a clear advantage.
so ... the only beef i have with crossbows is when they become crossguns and enter the bowhunting season and venues.
-
I understand what you're saying Rob. This is just a situation where something bothers you that doesn't bother me. I don't see the negative in some guys taking the crossbow shortcut. I'm sure there are things hunting related that bother me that you don't think twice about. We don't agree on this topic and that's fine, if we all agreed on everything there would be little to talk about.
-
i dunno how more clear i can make my position ...
i don't care if someone uses a crossgun for hunting - THAT is NOT a problem.
THE PROBLEM is when the politicians decide to allow that crossgun during ARCHERY season, at ARCHERY venues. this is the EXACT same as allowing firearms to hunt the same time and place as REAL archery bowhunting.
-
Rob, I clearly understand your position. I just don't share your stance on it. I'm willing to share the woods with crossbow hunters, grouse hunters, squirrel hunters, I don't put my pursuits ahead of anyone else's. I can accept that you don't feel the same as me, if you cannot accept that I don't feel the same as you...well that's your issue. I'm not trying to change your mind, just explaining why I feel the way I do.
-
why is there an archery season and a firearm season?
-
in PA the firearm season was the original deer season, archery seasons were added later. And I'm sorry but hunting with a crossbow is similar to firearms in aiming, and firing only. Crossbows have about the same effective range as a compound, are limited by arrow drop like a compound. They don't shoot through brush, outside of 30 yards you have to really account for yardage, like a compound. The only real "in the woods" advantage a crossbow has over a compound is less movement to fire, which is really only a major advantage to ground hunters who aren't in a blind. Are crossbows easier to be accurate with? Yes yes yes yes and yes, but to me how hard a weapon is to master shouldn't be the deciding factor as to whether it should be legal in a particular season. I just simply do not agree that hunting with a crossbow is the same as with a firearm. Just because a crossbow can do fancy things at long range on the shooting bench doesn't necessarily translate to huge advantages in the deer woods. I don't hunt with my trad bow yet, I'm not ready. I still hunt with my compound. I've shot crossbows, guys I hunt with use them. I'm familiar with what they can and can't do. When I'm in a treestand or blind with my bow, I honestly do not believe a crossbow would give me much of an advantage on killing a deer.
-
just to be clear, and with full disclosure in mind, back in the late 50's to mid 60's my dad and i built and shot crossbows using car springs for the prods, along with our longbows (that dad built, not me). i have nothing against crossbows whatsoever. THEY HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH ARCHERY.
but they ARE "guns" because unlike an archery bow, they are preloaded. whether the firing mechanism on a crossbow is a trigger or clasp, it is a "gun". it stays loaded during the entire hunt until it is fired or unloaded. THIS IS WHY CROSSBOWS ARE NOT EVEN REMOTELY IN THE SAME LEAGUE AS A HAND HELD ARCHERY BOW. they NEVER compete with archery bows in tournaments, and they belong with the firearm hunters and not the bowhunters.
-
Rob I don't disagree with your statement that shooting a crossbow isn't archery. And I respect your opinion that you don't think they belong in the archery seasons. But to me crossbows being legal for archery seasons are just a case of different weapons of similar effectiveness being legal in a particular season. In PA archery equipment was always legal for use in the flintlock season provided you had a flintlock stamp. I guess you're just a little more strict on what you want allowed in the archery season, and I can respect that.
-
i will repeat yet again, and then i'm done with this ...
- archery bows (longbows to cam bows) are not pre-loaded weapons, whilst crossbows are pre-loaded weapons.
- though they both have "limb engines", they are as different as night and day either at the target range or on the hunt.
- they are mutually exclusive and crossguns belong in the firearm hunt season, not the archery hunt season.
-
I guess I'm speaking Greek? I'm not arguing any of the points you just repeated again. You're free to repeat yourself, this is still America. You obviously are either missing my point, or you are not capable of accepting that someone else could possibly have a different take on a topic. Good day.
-
Originally posted by Krex1010:
I guess I'm speaking Greek? I'm not arguing any of the points you just repeated again. You're free to repeat yourself, this is still America. You obviously are either missing my point, or you are not capable of accepting that someone else could possibly have a different take on a topic. Good day.
if you advocate the use of crossguns during ARCHERY hunt seasons, at the same hunt venues, then i consider yer position as wrong and anti-archery. that's about it.
-
thank you for your judgement Rob. I'll keep my thoughts about you to myself because somehow I get the feeling you're not the type of bloke who troubles himself with the thoughts of those who are obviously beneath you.
-
Originally posted by Krex1010:
thank you for your judgement Rob. I'll keep my thoughts about you to myself because somehow I get the feeling you're not the type of bloke who troubles himself with the thoughts of those who are obviously beneath you.
don't take my comments personally, they're not about you per se, they have only to do with crossbows, crossguns, archery and hunting.
that you see it perfectly ok to allow crossguns to hunt side-by-side with archers/bowhunters, is yer own business.
BUT, i do NOT want anyone reading through trad gang posts to think WE (trad gang) endorse crossgun hunting during archery season. we don't.
CROSSBOWS/CROSSGUNS belong in the firearm hunting season. just as firearms and crossbows do not compete with real archery tackle.
further, this is the only trad gang sub-forum where legal hunting weapons can be alluded to, but not specifically posted about IF they are not stick bows. i like lots of different weapons for both hunting and target, crossbows definitely included.
at this juncture, i think we're pretty much over about 'em with regards to hunting, we're not gonna have a change of mindset, so let's leave it all be, drop it, and move on.
-
Not a complete advocate but i started with a crossbow and now build my own recurves. cant say its had a terribly detrimental effect on me. Especially since i still get to hunt with my dad.
-
I just don't understand why anyone would use a crossgun or even supports its use in the archery season. Where do we draw the line on archery equipment? Is it when the crossgun fires a bolt using a 209 primer at over 1,000 fps? I have yet to see anyone that supports the use of the crossgun answer this question. Yes the crossgun harvest in PA is under the microscope now....stay tuned.
Ron
-
Originally posted by Ron Vought:
I just don't understand why anyone would use a crossgun or even supports its use in the archery season. Where do we draw the line on archery equipment? Is it when the crossgun fires a bolt using a 209 primer at over 1,000 fps? I have yet to see anyone that supports the use of the crossgun answer this question. Yes the crossgun harvest in PA is under the microscope now....stay tuned.
Ron
I think the transition to game management by local DNR's has been the biggest factor. Hunting used to a be a tradition, now its a functional element at a means to an end result. The DNR's want me deer dead period. That seemed to start here is the early 90's and hasn't ended. They don't care what you think just kill their deer. Sad state of reality. I now fear State biologist with a hidden agenda more than any weapon. They have done more to reduce archery status than anyone thing is recent memory.
-
I agree. Just kill the deer has lead to less hunters here in PA. Maybe a good thing about less hunters in the woods...Not sure.
Ron
-
Originally posted by Ron Vought:
I agree. Just kill the deer has lead to less hunters here in PA. Maybe a good thing about less hunters in the woods...Not sure.
Ron
Ron, i think its a good and bad thing. Now that hunters are needed to kill more deer we are now a necessity as opposed to a luxury (which is what bow season in ohio was based on originally). BY luxury i mean that we were deemed to have a very minimal impact on the deer herds so they gave us the OK. Now we kill a lot of deer. A concern i do have with crossbows is there is a very negative attribute that happens every year in gun season ad its the lack of respect for other peoples property and tresspassing. My opinion on it is i do feel strongly that the crossbow has allowed that negative migration into our "bowhunters" and they use the crossbow as a tool to do that because its easy and they don't have to wear that annoying orange that gets them busted. That may seem like a very broad generalization but that is what i see from my stand. There are people of all weapons that do this but again from my stand, they are the crossbow crowd. I do realize that not every crossbow hunter is bad and that is not the point but i find it to be a gateway tool like marijuana is for other harder narcotics.
-
A possible Penna. state record has been killed this year in "Archery" season. The buck is going to score in the high 180's and possibly break 190. 302# live weight and the" tips" of the antlers are almost 2"thick. The rack measured a 19" spread. Extremely heavy.
Shot in Allegheny Co. on Oct. 10, private ground. The hunter used a crossbow to kill it. Range......62+yards. A new State record more than likely.
I have nothing against this weapon either. It just does not belong in "Archery" season. It is not a "bow". And seeing how we have given it other names I like to refer to it as a Crossgow. A cross between a gun and a bow. Stock,trigger,scope,sling = gun....limbs ,bolt, string,broadhead = bow. Crossgow
Deer do not stand much of a chance these days as far as seasons go. Like stated above ,some areas start in the end of Sept. and are still running. Couple that with Coyote and Black Bear predation plus the upcoming CWD coming into Pa. and you are looking at numbers falling.
Crossgows have there place but it is not in the Archery Season.
Penna. should put the Crossgows in with the early muzzleloading (inline) season,ending with the junior/senior hunt. Let them all hunt that one week, just them, and then it's a done deal.
Archery season goes back to Archery season as we all knew it.
Something is going to happen, time will tell.
Good Hunting,
Craig
-
Agreed Craig. Just wondering what will be sacrificed if something has to give.
Ron
-
I am content as long as the discussion and decisions around season lengths/bag limits etc...center around 2 things:
A) Game management
B) Maintaing/increasing people enjoying the hunt
What is the proper balance across those two and what will drive the optimal result will change over time.
I have no qualm hunting a bow in gun season. I have killed deer that way...multiple times....
I also don't worry about trophies and records; therefore, my opinion could be very different from others.
Hunters of all types need to work together to keep us all out there...hug a crossbow hunter today! LOL....
-
Really you guys are worried about crossbows in the archery season how funny.
If you guys haven’t heard I will let you know now, we have guns in the archery season here in PA. You can hunt with an inline muzzleloader, which is nothing less than a high powered rifle that can reach out there to over 200 yards, and if you are a youth hunter or a senior you can use a rifle all together. Crossbows are not my biggest problem, if it was not for a crossbow my friend that was hurt in a car accident wouldn't be able to hunt with us guys anymore, being he is restrained to a wheelchair for the rest of his life. The crossbow probable saved his life and gave him purpose. :banghead:
I have had compound shooters leave the archery rang because I was outshooting them on the course, I have friends that have went back to traditional gear after hunting with me for a few years and seeing that you can shoot a traditional bow accurately and harvest game year after year. :campfire:
-
Originally posted by Traditional-Archer:
Really you guys are worried about crossbows in the archery season how funny.
If you guys haven’t heard I will let you know now, we have guns in the archery season here in PA. You can hunt with an inline muzzleloader, which is nothing less than a high powered rifle that can reach out there to over 200 yards, and if you are a youth hunter or a senior you can use a rifle all together.
ANY firearm during archery-only season is just plain STUPID.
Crossbows are not my biggest problem, if it was not for a crossbow my friend that was hurt in a car accident wouldn't be able to hunt with us guys anymore, being he is restrained to a wheelchair for the rest of his life. The crossbow probable saved his life and gave him purpose. :banghead:
very true. i give presentations, demonstrations, and hold archery tackle seminars with scout kids. TANJ is one of the largest supporters (with both time AND money) for the education of kids and archery and bowhunting, perhaps in the nor'east.
www.tradnj.com (http://www.tradnj.com)
we lead by example.
I have had compound shooters leave the archery rang because I was outshooting them on the course, I have friends that have went back to traditional gear after hunting with me for a few years and seeing that you can shoot a traditional bow accurately and harvest game year after year. :campfire:
to each their own. life is short, make the most of it for yourself and humanity. :campfire:
-
Mr. DiStefano this is what I read. when someone says we don't that means all.
BUT, i do NOT want anyone reading through trad gang posts to think WE (trad gang) endorse crossgun hunting during archery season. we don't.
That is OK it is just a misunderstanding of that statement, If it were personal I wouldn't want any other tool or weapon being used in any season other than a recurve or a longbow. But I might be looked at as an elitists we couldn't have that now. LOL everyone needs to blow steam sometimes Rob, its good we here at the Gang have broad shoulders. I am always tolerant of other people’s positions unless it’s not how I position my beliefs. LOL
I think you helped me with getting supplies for our troop if I remember correctly, all 26 boys made their own longbow and arrows, how cool is that. Anyway thanks for your support of our Boy Scouts and your support her on the TradGang.
:thumbsup:
-
Originally posted by Traditional-Archer:
Mr. DiStefano this is what I read. when someone says we don't that means all.
quote:
BUT, i do NOT want anyone reading through trad gang posts to think WE (trad gang) endorse crossgun hunting during archery season. we don't.
That is OK it is just a misunderstanding of that statement, If it were personal I wouldn't want any other tool or weapon being used in any season other than a recurve or a longbow. But I might be looked at as an elitists we couldn't have that now. LOL everyone needs to blow steam sometimes Rob, its good we here at the Gang have broad shoulders. I am always tolerant of other people’s positions unless it’s not how I position my beliefs. LOL
I think you helped me with getting supplies for our troop if I remember correctly, all 26 boys made their own longbow and arrows, how cool is that. Anyway thanks for your support of our Boy Scouts and your support her on the TradGang.
:wavey: :campfire:
-
Michigan allowed "full inclusion" of Crossbows several years ago now.
To say that it has changed our archery season is an understatement.
Bowhunting is what I do, and my year revolves around it. In 2014, I travelled around and hunted throughout Michigan, spending time hunting in the S.E. Lower Penninsula, the N.W. Lower, the North Central Lower, and the North East Lower. All of my hunting was on public land. I ran across LOTS of "Bowhunters". I didn`t keep track of exact numbers, but it was in the hundreds. In all the other "bowhunters" I came across while hunting, only ONE was using a conventional compound bow. Read that again...ONE.
My observation has been this...Crossbows are used almost exclusively by everyone I encountered on public land in 2014. "Bowhunter" numbers are up despite claims by the DNR that they are down. And our deer populations are a mere shadow of the mid 2000`s. (and deer numbers in 2005 were down from years before).
Whenever I felt comfortable I asked WHY the other hunters chose a crossgun and if they are new to bowhunting.
In EVERY instance they responded that they were compound converts, and the reason they chose crossguns is because of the "extended range" and the ease of use.
EVERYONE claims crossguns are no more effective than compounds and this statement is TOTALLY false! Totally!
The DNR claims Crossguns are used by a small percentage of "bowhunters"...this is a total falsehood. By my observance, and that of most everyone else, crossguns are used by as much as 90% of the "bowhunters" here in Michigan.
If it weren`t for the fact that the Michigan DNR seems intent on the eradication of deer in Michigan, the crossgun success rate would certainly be an issue.
-
The local politicians that are bed with the crossgun lobby here defend the motion with the "they should have their place just like you." What are they a different species? The reality is from some that I have witnessed, that claim to have sore shoulders so they have to use crossguns, is that during the gun season they are the worst of the worst for trespassing flying around like they are nuts chasing deer with their pickups and taking every short cut that they can. Another crossgunner went so far as to put up illegal wood tree stands that were barely nailed in, so anyone that was invading HIS turf on public land would fall when the stand gave out. I knocked them down, took the wood home and burned it. For those that claim that we all have to get along because we are all hunters, BULL, those that I have witnessed except for one elderly gentleman are all slobs and have no business hunting anything with anything.
-
paven -
Well said. We are seeing the same type of activity here in PA with gun hunting mentality. I think the crossgun inclusion may backfire on the PGC and bowhunters of PA. They are looking at the number of bucks being taken prior to the rut now by archery hunters and the crossgun is supposedly the main driver. Curious on how they will handle this from a deer management/biology standpoint...Will they shorten the season or exclude the crossguns. Only time will tell.
Ron
-
Ron.....I see that the PA game commission is going to lengthen the archery season in a few wmu's. I believe making bucks legal in the September portion of the season and adding a week to the end. Granted this will be in the wmu's that have high deer numbers and low public access. Is there genuine concern in the game commission about the archery season harvest? I'm on the record in this thread as not being against crossbows in general, I don't care if someone else takes a shortcut AS LONG as the practice doesnt significantly affect population numbers and result in shorter seasons. Where did you see the game commission is reviewing archery seasons? Id like to follow that closely. I'm not defending crossbows with this post.....I am just very interested in your comments about reviewing the archery harvest.
-
When they implement something in the Special Regulations section in PA that means we are trying something to determine an outcome. Yes I did talk to someone that indicated to me that they are watching the impact the crossgun is having on the deer herd which I would expect them to do considering bowhunters are now being looked at as a deer management tool. Bowhunters of PA have never really been looked at as a deer management tool until the crossgun came along.
Ron
-
Well I would hope they do keep an eye on crossbow's effect on the overall deer harvest. As for bowhunters not being a management tool....maybe not across the state, but where I live, bowhunters are the only management tool, there are not many places a fellow can take a firearm legally around here and its been that way for the last 15-20 years.
-
I hope the PGC uses common sense by eliminating the crossgun from archery versus shortening the season if there becomes deer management issues.
Ron
-
i agree with you there Ron
-
We just got the numbers on Wisconsin"s first xgun season.
vert. bows 54,810
xgun 26,891
That is 32.91% of the total bow harvest. Not a bad start. It did not make for a bigger take than last year though. Keep in mind that gun kill was down also.
-
Thanks Greg.
Some very important figures (to me) are not present. What percent success rate were enjoyed by both groups ? or at least, how many Xgun tags were sold vs how many bow tags were sold and we can do the math.
ChuckC
-
Id like to know the tags sold vs. the hunter success. I for one hunt a very heavily hunted piece of Wisconsin public, and I had seen more guys with xguns, than I did deer! Having experienced the same area in the past, I thought I was in the shot gun season! Seeing the totals, are encouraging thou. If the numbers are higher next year, we have a fighting chance to let the sunset clause take affect.
-
Crossbows have been legal during archery season in Ontario for longer then I've been able to hunt in 1990. While I prefer to shoot with my longbow or recurve I honestly have nothing against a crossbow hunter.
Back before I was injured at work and couldn't draw a bow for nearly ten years I shot both a recurve and a compound. I shot in many 3d events was was always amazed at how badly I could beat the crossbow shooters. There's a big difference between shooting a crossbow off hand and from a bench.
Having actually hunted with one because I couldn't hunt otherwise I can tell you that they are not as superior as many believe they are and I mean that with the highest respect.
They are big,heavy and bulky and they are very noisy. A deer at over thirty yards has a real chance of jumping the string and being missed clean. I've had it happen. You will get way more shooting opportunities with a traditional bow then a crossbow. You just can't twist around the same to take shots.
And to say that crossbow hunters are all slobs with no skill or respect to the animals is just not right. The two very best deer hunters I know are crossbow hunters. To say no one other the a crossbow shooter ever makes a bad shot is not reality.
Are crossbows the same as traditional bows or compounds? No they are not,no question. But I do not believe they are nearly as bad as many people think. Perhaps there will be an influx of new shooters for the first few years but many will give it up or move onto another form of bow that is more pleasurable to use.
Sometimes giving something a try can change a persons perspective on some things and I would urge everyone to at least give the crossbow a try on the range or even in a 3d shoot and you will see first hand that they do have their limitations.
I love shooting my longbow and recurve far more then any crossbow but at the same time I don't look down on the crossbow either.
Goose smasher
-
I don't look down on the crossgun or the hunter using them but it simply isn't archery. They should be used in the gun season which I have no problem with. We have to draw the line somewhere on archery equipment otherwise it will keep going until they develop a crossgun where a 209 primer fires a bolt. We saw the same thing happen when the inline muzzleloader came on the seen....It's no more than a so called muzzleloader disguised as a very accurate and long distance caseless rifle cartridge.
The other side of this debate is how the crossgun could negatively impact the archery season in regards to now being viewed as a highly effective deer management tool. Example...Harvest numbers go above biologist projections and bow seasons never are extended or worst case seasons shortened. Nobody wants to talk about this especially the guys that use crossguns.
Ron
-
Perhaps crossbows could be a recruitment opportunity for traditional bows? Crossbows are pretty boring to shoot but trad bows are wonderfully fun to shoot and we all know that!
What if we embraced the new crossbow shooters and invited them to join us? I think a lot of them would eventually want to try something more challenging and fun like our bows. I know I'd rather take one shot with a longbow instead of a hundred with a crossbow.
-
I think most hunters that use a crossgun use it because it requires less practice time and is easier to use, at least that is what I hear from the majority of them. It's more of an opportunists mindset. Having said this I am not sure they would convert to traditional bow being that it requires practice and is not 'easier'.
Ron
-
You hit the nail on the head for that one Ron. If the vast majority aren't switching that shot compounds,you can bet most using crossbows have little or no interest in hunting with "Trad " bows.
Even if some did it's still no reason to have that contraption allowed in bowhunting seasons. Should be legal only in gun seasons/urban deer hunts. Or for the physically disabled.
-
I have been in many debates with the crossgun community on other forums and this same discussion comes up about recruitment. I just don't buy it. The crossgun hunter elects to use the crossgun for normally two reasons....easier to use and requires less time. Seems our society today is all about 'less time' and people want things that are easier with no work involved.
The crossgun debate should be about two things....what is the true identity of bowhunting and how does the weapon impact our season. These two areas need discussion.
Ron
-
I agree completely with you guys that crossbows are not trad bows.
Another thing to think about is not alienating a group of hunters. We need to be united. Well funded anti hunting groups want to end our hunting and they will chip away at us little by little until they get their way. If one group of hunters fights with another group of hunters then its easier for the anti's to win.
If the traditional hunters won't work with the crossbow hunters why would the crossbow hunters stick up for the trad hunters if they became the anti's target? What if there was more crossbow hunters then trad hunters and they lobbied to have us taken out of the hunting seasons?If there's more crossbow hunters then trad hunters we could lose.
Like I said before guys my province has had crossbow hunting during archery season for over thirty years and I really don't see the harm in it.
Ask yourself this question.If you or heaven forbid your son or daughter was in some sort of accident and could no longer draw a bow to hunt would you hunt (or allow them to) with a crossbow or stick to your guns and no crossbow hunting during bow season?
I have the highest respect for everyone who loves their traditional bows and have put years into living the traditional lifestyle. I think its fantastic and I'm really enjoying getting into the scene myself. I just think fighting the crossbows is a losing battle. Maybe we should say to the crossbow hunters that crossbows are ok and hey ,have you ever tried a recurve? Maybe not all of them would get into the trad bows but some will. You catch more flies with honey.
-
No problem with a truly handicapped hunter using a crossgun but prior to the crossgun being legalized in PA the word handicapped or disabled was truly being abused to obtain a crossgun permit. Crossguns are not archery hunting. Where do you want to draw the line on archery equipment and how does it impact our seasons?
It's not all about the weapon we choose to use its all about getting the right kind of hunters involved with fighting the anti's. We have many hunters that are opportunists plain and simple....in other words all they care about is hunting and never get involved with hunting related issues so by uniting what does that mean when only a handful of people are doing all the fighting? Pure numbers will not defeat the anti's or legislation that negatively hurts hunting...its having the right kind of hunters in our ranks. Those that actually do something versus just taking the opportunities to hunt.
Ron
-
I was standing in one of the larger archery shops in PA today and overheard a guy inquiring about a crossgun. The clerk asked him "why do you want to use a crossgun versus a vertical bow". The response from the customer was that he didn't have time to be proficient with a vertical bow and that the crossgun was easier....sounded to me that the guy wanted a short cut into the archery season. Sight it in and go hunt...
Ron
-
So?
-
I have no problem with people hunting with crossbows. HOWEVER, I totally disagree that they should be allowed during archery season. They should be allowed in the rifle season. Modern crossbows are not archery. I've got no more use for them than I do an in-line black powder rifle.
-
Except they aren't rifles.
Really I find these debates kinda ridiculous
Like you're arguing how someone else chooses to participate in a recreational activity.
And it actually doesn't even effect you.