Trad Gang
Main Boards => Hunting Knives and Crafters => Topic started by: JC on April 16, 2008, 09:08:00 AM
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I don't make knives myself...I don't have the time and I really like owning the best I can afford...and just about any knife maker could make one better than I ever could. But I collect knives like Tippit does bows (and those that have seen his basement know what a statement that is). As someone who has seen a lot of great knives come through my hands, I'd like to offer some unsolicited advice for those new and upcoming knife builders here on this site. Some very talented individuals showcase their skills on these threads, I just thought those looking for the next level may need some ideas. These are strictly my opinion...so take them for the $.02 it's not worth ;) . But if you build knives to sell and/or build them for the pride of making a functional work of art, I think you may find some of these helpful.
One thing I see that commonly seperates good knives from great knives is the contours of handle. Not only should it fit well in the hand, but a handle should look graceful from all angles. Frequently I see handles just stuck on...ground in great side profiles but the overhead/underside profiles seem to have been overlooked. The handle material transition to the blade is a right angle instead of a sloping transition from all angles. Same with the rear of the handle when viewed overhead, just a straight block. The outside of the handle slabs are perpindicular lines with no subtle or graceful curves to fit the hand and please the eye. Put some curves in your handles from all angles and I'll bet you'll like the way the the handle performs and certainly will increase the eye candy value.
Experiment with blade shapes. A straight blade is functional but as you progress with your grinding, branch out with different grinds. Change the location of the tip angle, the belly of the blade etc. I sometimes buy a knife just because the blade shape is different than I've seen before. Imho, I think almost any blade shape is servicable and you just may find one different than you normally grind to work better in some circumstances. Also try tapering the tang and filework...though not purely functional, both add a lot of "pop".
Sheaths. Sometimes I've fallen in love with a knife and purchased it only to sell it quickly thereafter because I hated the sheath. Look at Doug Campbell's leather work...you don't have to be fancy shmancy to build a great sheath for your knife. Flimsy sheaths are the bane of fine blades.
Fit/finish. I've seen some awesome knives that seems to have everything but on closer inspection, they lack a lot in the finish department. Pits in the handle that have not been sanded down (though it sometimes adds character in certain burls), handles not fitting seamless with blades (raised or recessed edges), uneven grinds or grinds not taken as far back on the blade as possible, makers mark not uniform depth (like it's hit off/angle), final sharpness, etc. It's common to see knives 95% right on but that last 5% seems to have been so overlooked it's obvious.
Just some ramblings from a steel junky...not meant to be a "know it all" or self proclaimed expert on the subject. As always, your mileage may vary.
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Sounds like pure logic (if not always thought of)to me JC. Now if I could just remember it all when I make one (put one together) - now let's see, what was my name again ... ??? ;)
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:thumbsup:
Great advice JC and some of the things I know I have been working on in my infant stages of knife buildery.
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I will point out that a tapered tang will contribute to a more balanced knife. It can be a quite large knife, but if the blade has good distal taper and the tang is tapered, this throws the balance where it belongs for most knives and it will feel lighter than it looks.
A full tang knife with a thick straight tang will be handle heavy and can look sort of blocky.
Lin
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Good points, JC.
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I would love to see some top shots of the handle shapes you like! Thanks for your ideas!!!
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yes some examples would be helpful for those of us new to knife making. Thanks Skippy
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Will do guys! I'll take some close up pics this weekend with some examples of what I mentioned above.
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great advise :thumbsup: can't wait to see the pic's
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Sorry guys, busy week....
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v701/recurvhuntr/knives/IMG_0159.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v701/recurvhuntr/knives/IMG_0160.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v701/recurvhuntr/knives/IMG_0161.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v701/recurvhuntr/knives/IMG_0162.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v701/recurvhuntr/knives/IMG_0171.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v701/recurvhuntr/knives/IMG_0172.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v701/recurvhuntr/knives/IMG_0173.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v701/recurvhuntr/knives/IMG_0174-1.jpg)
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Sorry, double clutch...
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I agree with Lin about tapered tangs. When I see a nice blade shape but the tang was the original thickness of steel, it just seems to have lost simmetry in balance and looks for me. Tapering the tang can be accomplished by grinding or hot forging it.
Even JC's first picture of that beautiful shaped handle has a full thickness tang. That's the first thing I saw. Guess it's easy for me since I stretch my blade to the tip & end of the tang in my forging...Doc
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JC, that one with phenolic handle...it looks like it has been used!
Ah, a real working tool!
Dan
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JC,
I hope you dont think I dont like your knives. I do. They are very nice. :)
I do think in designing a knife, balance has to be considered in the process. It could be that the two knives you show have had lightening holes drilled in the handle's tang and dont need it to be tapered. A lot of makers do that.
A hunting knife should typically balance at the index finger's position. Just behind the guard. The longer the blade the more the balance point will move forward, unless the maker takes steps to counter balance with a heavier handle material, butt cap, etc. On the other hand a knife with a relatively short blade can do well to have a handle that is of lighter material and a tapered tang. Again, for balance.
That sculpted Buckey Burl is nice.
Lin
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Awesome knives JC!! Also as a beginner knife build I like reading what people look for in a knife. Taper tangs are nice, but difficult to do with out a good grinder. As Lin descripted I normally put holes in the tang to get a good balance.
Anyone else see the womans face in the burl of the third photo?
(http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a222/JPStangs/IMG_0161.jpg)
James
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Ahhhh, yes, tapered tangs. So few can do them well.....and that's why so few do them. The two I showed her did not have them...you are correct. And yes, both of these knives would have been slightly more if they had been balanced just a touch forward of the gaurd, preferably in the middle of the blade between gaurd and point. But it's really hard to do.
And yes Dan, that blade has been worked hard. So far, it is the skinnin winner...and just bout everything else too. 1/4" thick s30V steel, great grind, micarta handle with a great shape...just about perfect small blade shape.
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I don't understand why it is hard to do tapered tangs?
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A good knife is deceptively difficult to make. It can look very simple, but have a lot "going on" behind the scenes in areas of balance, and degree of difficulty. Gettin it all done and making it look natural and easy is the trick.
A tapered tang takes a little different approach. Several pionts have to be met while grinding and still come out straight and centered. If you drill the pin holes after the taper, you have to compensate for the angle of taper to get the pins drilled perpendicular to the blade's center line. Those who stock remove will drill while the material is still parallel. Then grind the taper. Then, depending on how and when you shape the scales, you have to account for the angle of the tang's taper when drilling the scales or you'll get the holes off. It can get confusing.
Lin
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Not only the pin holes, but also more difficult to get a good fit between the bolsters and scales after you taper the tang. I only have a cheap 1 x 30 grinder and do most of my shaping with files. To get a good even and straight taper I need a larger flat platten. Also the layout become important on the taper tangs.
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Lin said it better than I ever could.
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JC, I think those knives are great looking knives too. Just thought I'd follow up on the tapered tang. I don't do a great deal of grinding. When I forge I taper the blade tip & tang pretty much even. I also taper my blade from spine to edge. Therefore when I do grind I don't come out with a very deep grind line at the ricasso area.
Not that that is any better or worse than stock removal, I just like to play and mold hot steel. For me that is the fun of making knives. It's a different style. I'll never be an ABS Journeymen or make wonderful knives like Karl, Lin, Doug, etc cause they all come out with imperfections of forging...Doc
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Originally posted by tippit:
JC, I think those knives are great looking knives too. Just thought I'd follow up on the tapered tang. I don't do a great deal of grinding. When I forge I taper the blade tip & tang pretty much even. I also taper my blade from spine to edge. Therefore when I do grind I don't come out with a very deep grind line at the ricasso area.
Not that that is any better or worse than stock removal, I just like to play and mold hot steel. For me that is the fun of making knives. It's a different style. I'll never be an ABS Journeymen or make wonderful knives like Karl, Lin, Doug, etc cause they all come out with imperfections of forging...Doc
Methinks you sell yourself too short Doc. I've seen and used your knives (though sadly only for brief periods :rolleyes: ) and your blades are as good as any in my safe. I love the look of your forged blades when you leave them "rough/unfinished" along the spine. The only reason you won't be a Journeyman/Master will simply be because you don't want to be one...your forging skills are simply incredible seeing how "new" you are at it :readit:
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I read JC's post when it first came out and to be honest, I havent felt much like working on knives since. I was realy enjoying what I was doing, but realised I was not up to snuf and probably never would be.My knife shop consists of an old garden shed, a one inch belt sander, a black and decker drill, some files, a C clamp, and some sand paper.And to be perfectly honest, that might be all my budget will ever allow. I've only made about seven knives and have given them all to friends and famly. I would not consider selling a knife allthow I have traded one for another knife. I haven't posted any pics of my knives since I read this post, and while I am still working on knives, I now find myself doing it with a since of failure, that takes a lot of the fun out of it. I am not mad about it or aneything. It's just like now I know my place. It took some of the wind out of my sails.
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el oso,
I'm sure that JC's comments weren't meant to put anyone down or discourage any of us. I would venture to say the knives he has collected are from some seasoned knife makers. I took his comments and as I continue on this venture will try to remember.
I make knives because I enjoy it and like you enjoy gifting them to people. They are functional and the friends I have given them to appreciate them.
Most of us won't be at the same level as Howard Hill, Fred Bear, and the list goes on, when it comes to archery, but we continue to do it because we enjoy it and does what works for us.
Don't give up, JC's comments have given me some ideas on new things to try. I have about the same set up as you and am really in no rush to get more at this time.
And for what its worth, I've liked the knives you have posted. Hope you will start again.
Nick
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El Oso, don't be discouraged. There is no written rule that says we have to meet a certain person's expectations.
First, I'll say that JC is very opinionated, he has some very high standards and he was merely trying to explain "what floats his boat". Maybe one day I'll be lucky enough to make a knife that resides in his safe.
You'll get a lot of opinions on this website, and none of them are particularly right or wrong.
Carbon vs. stainless, tapered tang vs untapered, exotic wood vs. antler vs. synthetic, polished vs brushed...you get the picture.
What about the guys who knap their blades from stone, let's see them polish them or stick them in a vise and bend them.
You see, there are all kinds of knives, methods, and they all have their place.
Try to enjoy making knives, and let it take you up whatever trail is natural for you.
Dan
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Nick. I agree. I don't think JC ment to discourage aneone. I am sure it was just good advice, and like I sead ,I am not upset with aneyone.It's just the way I feel. ITs my problem and one I will have to work through. As for posting pics ,I always felt a little weard about it aneway. allthow I did enjoy positive coments, evan though most where being polite and suportive. I reread my last post and it sounds a little whiney, I don't know where that came from. I'm not a whiner. I think i'll shut up now.
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El oso,
I see knives all the time that are not built the exact way I like to build mine. But, I found out that I can make some vast improvements myself. You should see the ones I made at first!
Please dont stop. That's the whole point of this Trad section. It's important to continue and show your knives. We all learn. Besides, in writing, things can sound a little opinionated, when it's meant in good spirit. I can be guilty of that.
Lin
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I agree with all said above. I read JC's post and thought they was all really good points. I agreed with most of them and appreciated his honest input. Well stated and straight on and I liked it. I've rethought alot of my knife designs afterwards and thats a good thing. However most of my knifes would probably never be on his "I want list" and I'm okay with that. There are some incredible knife makers on here that I continuely strive to get to that level but know I never will cause simply it's just a hobby to me. I'm a hunter making simple homemade hunting knives for hunters. I've made several knives now and never sold a single one. However I have gave them to friends who were over whelmed with them, I've gave some to farmers who granted me sole hunting rights of 1000 acres prime trophy whitetail hunting property, I've dontated to charities and I've brought them to hunting camps for a rewards on poker night! Yeah you ought to see the serious game faces on those poker games. Besides I just plain like making knives and ain't gona quit just because knife collectors aren't interested in my blades. Lots of other folks are!! But you can bet I'm always gona try to build a better knife and use JC's post and listen to others on here and improve my knifes and you should too. Theres been a ton of good info on here and some aweomse knives posted on here yours included! So get back to doing what you like to do and post pics!
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I agree with all of you . It was a crybaby post and I wish I hadn't written it. To much beer and BBQ today :D I should not post when under the influance of beer and brisket.
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LC,
What a good post! It helps to put things in perspective.
This is supposed to be fun.
Lin
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Whoa....as usual, sometimes the written word is not the most effective means of communicating. My posts were never meant to discourage anyone, and as I stated in the first one, "strictly my opinion...so take them for the $.02 it's not worth." I was simply trying to give folks some ideas that were looking for new ones. I've had multiple folks ask my opinion on knives/design because they know of the number of knives I've owned or handled. It was never intended as a "right or wrong", just some creative "fertilizer."
Many fine makers on here with some great stuff showcased. My apologies to any and all who took offense...discouraging someone was the last thing on my mind.
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sometimes I think the internet,in all its wonderfulness, can be a two edged sword. fifteen years ago El Oso would never have seen anything like JC's post.
He would have been banging out knives and having a great time, and never thought of his stuff as 'not good enough'. Not good enough is subjective, as JC says, its HIS thoughts. All his points are well-thought out, valid, and make good sense whether you are a maker for others or a maker for fun. They are things we should aspire to.
After seeing Lin Rhea's and KBA's knives on here I have begun tapering all my knives, as well as paying more attention to aesthetics in other areas- I found a local maker who could help me figure it out,and walk me through it.
But not doing those things to your knives doesn't make them any less than what they were before you read JC's post...doesn't make them any less nice a gift for friends or your family or for your personal use...there is NOTHING better than making something yourself and using it...any arrow maker, bowyer, or knife maker will tell you that so its a glass half full, glass half empty thing.
Put as much into it as you want, and get your rewards accordingly. Everyone can't/won't make knives as good as Lin's, or his wouldn't be special would they????? It'ssomething to aspire to...not something you have to do before what you make is valid.
I bet Lin's first fifty knives don't look as good as his last fifty.That's life.That's experience. That's DOING IT.
I watched a video last night of a Japanese guy who is considered a national treasure in Japan. He is a 'sword sharpener'. He takes two weeks to finish one sword....five days sharpening,five days polishing,all by hand. You don't have to BE that guy to learn things from him.Enjoy the journey.
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Not to sound like a broken record, but everybody has their own likes and dislikes, especially when it comes to something as personal as a knife.
I've seen many BEAUTIFUL knives posted on this site. In fact, many of them have inspired me to want to try my hand at building knives. I'll be starting with a Helle blade that I'm giving my 12-year-old son for his birthday. It'll be a father-son project...a chance to expose him to hobbies that I was never exposed to until my adult years. From there I'd like to advance to making my own blades, in a style that suits my taste better than a Helle blade ever can.
Will one of my knives ever end up in JC's safe? I doubt it - simply because it seems from the pictures JC posted that we have much different tastes in knives. But I won't let that stop me from building the style of knives that I like most. And for the same reason, Lin's knives don't really appeal to me, as beautiful as they are. I'd be afraid to use them!
JC did bring up some great suggestions for those looking to take their knife-building to the next level. But don't let those suggestions discourage you. If the knives you build suit your tastes and needs, then that's all that really matters.
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Wow, glad that got worked out before I got here... "beer and brisket" sounds like a great combo but I'll remember not to do much typing after ;)
Well gotta put in my .02 worth... I think Joe has a great post here and I know his intentions were only good. No matter what kind of knives your building, assembling, forging..., whether it's for the fun of it or your as serious as death... As long as you can say you learn from each one or the next one is going be a little better than the last one... your doing it right.
Not everyone wants to put in the time and effort but if you do and with enough of those lessons/improvements/experiences... Eventually your knives are going to be looking like Lin's and Karl's and may even end up in Joe's safe...
Now come on, have fun and lets be careful out there. ;)
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Show some more pics of you knives JC, Looks like we are going to have to have a good ol show en tell when ever I get over your way.
:pray:
Cobber al.
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I'll send you some pics Al.
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JC, if you don't mind saying. How many knives do you own? Not counting kitchen stuff. I mean your collectable stuff.
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Around 25....but some rotate in and out as I buy/sell/trade. I've got probably 10 that I pretty much have decided are keepers. I usually have those 10 scattered about my man room with the rest in my gun safe with the other pretty steel things. Like I said....I'm almost as bad with collecting knives as Tippit is with bows. Just ask him for some pics of his basement :bigsmyl: