Trad Gang
Main Boards => The Bowyer's Bench => Topic started by: kennym on June 21, 2009, 01:19:00 PM
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Hey folks,
I'm thinkin of building 2 test bows, identical except core wood. Would use black glass, so no veneers and more core.
What riser wood goes good with black glass?Was thinkin osage or zebra....
Was thinkin of makin one with the tried and true a-boo.
What would you all like to see as the other test core?
Maple,hickory,red elm edge???
Would be nice to get ahold of some foam core also,may have to work on that and make it 3 bows! :p
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red elm should be a good choice
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I will be watching this one. Keep us posted Kenny.
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Kenny, I like osage, padauk, or birdseye maple with matching overlays.
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I second Padauk. I have a 1 piece recurve I made here that's got a Padauk riser with black glass and I think it's a sharp lookin bow!
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I've been likin that red elm here lately.
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Have you guys had any trouble with padauk? I've had a couple risers break (padauk I sold)and some checking probs.
Maybe with some glass or phenolic thru the grip??
Or padauk and osage?? I think both turn brown in a few years......
Also have a ton of curly maple I could incorporate in a riser.....
I was thinkin red elm core to test against the boo,because it made a good show in my hillbilly weight and bend test awhile back. :saywhat:
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I'd like to see the difference between Hard rock Maple and action boo used as cores. The FDC and end result that is...
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Kenny,
I'm 50/50 on the Padauk. When I made my footed riser, Gabon Ebony and Lacewood, I used a 1/16 piece of padauk in between the lacewood and ebony, and the padauk was just ripped apart at the failure. I originally thought it was the glue joint that failed, but it turned out to be the padauk.
The other one is a solid riser (the bow with the black glass). It was made from 10/4 padauk that I planed and sanded down.
I think - not an official diagnosis though - that padauk will do well with a lower weight bow (55lb and under), but if you were to go higher, you could be askin for trouble.
Just my two cents.
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I was thinking about this about a month ago.
I would really like to see a two bows made with each type of wood core. Use two different thicknesses and see what the total difference is between each. That being the difference in draw weight between the two different core thicknesses, and the difference between the different core materials, all coming off the same form.
I wish I had the money cause I would try to do it in a heartbeat. Unfortunately I have plenty of time to do it.
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Kenny, when designing my new hybrid I built a series of bows off the same form with maple risers and all maple limbs just so when I tried different rates of taper,power lams, tip wedges etc. the base bow would be the same.I even cut the lams all from the same maple board to eliminate any wood differences.I used .040 brown glass on all the bows.The biggest surprise I got was how good a bow all maple made. They were very nice bows if a little plain looking.When I made the first one with different wood I used osage lams with hickory core and only 10 thousands more stack got me 8# more weight, everything else the same.I just finished one with all red elm flat grain lams and red elm edge grain core and it took .025 more red elm to get the same weight as the osage-hickory bow.That is as far as I have gotten with my experiments but I have learned that different core woods make a real difference in the weight and how a bow feels at the shot. I actually like the all maple so much I am going to hunt with one of the maple bows this year. I have yet to try an all a-boo bow on this form but on my mild R/D longbow form I got more springback off the form when A-boo was a large componet of the core. Bob
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Maple and boo.
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Bocote riser block looks good with black glass but hey....Bocote looks good with anything.
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Thanks for the input guys!
Bob,I have noticed a diff in #s too with red elm coming in a little lite and red cedar coming in even lighter.
Also noticed a small amount of set in a-boo cored bows when laid back on the form a year later.
There may be a reason the old bows were made with mostly maple!
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:campfire: :coffee: Just sitting back trying to learn something from you experts on here. Waiting to see the results.
Shawn
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I'm curious too - I think the popularity of action boo is it's consistency, though it's performance is no doubt right up there.
(Secretly I'm rooting for the Elm - but hard rock Maple is tried and true....)
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I read in a book about a bowyer who spine tested his lams as part of his process of selecting them for a bow. It showed a picture of a homemade rig sort of like an arrow spine tester. He said sometimes even lams cut from the same board(probably a large board) would spine test way different. I seem to have way less trouble hitting projected weight when I use actionboo versus wood lams. I have only made one bow with maple, but it would really smoke an arrow.
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Hickory, hickory, hickory!! osage looks great with black glass and so does bocote. IMHO
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How do you "hit draw weight"? It seems there are so many variables when selecting the glass thickness, limb veneers and how thick, etc. Do you try and get within 5# and then file and sand down to the weight you want? It sure seems a less than perfect science. :campfire:
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Waaay less than perfect science!! Keep good written records of every bow you make(you won't remember,so don't try!).
Riser length
Limb length
limb width
stack thickness
rate of taper
# of tapers
# of parallels
glass thickness
glue brand
I'm prolly forgettin somethin!
I think even the best bowyers miss weight,so don't feel bad if you don't get it right on.
If you have enough limb,you can pike a couple inches off and gain 5-6#.
I polled a year or so back,seems most like 20-25% glass in the stack.
Some woods make heavier limbs for the thickness of lams. Like hickory vs. red cedar
It is a guessing game,thats what makes it interesting!!
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The guy who has been teaching me has a binder filled with the specs of every bow he has built. We were comparing different bows to the one I am building now. We were trying to see if we could come close to figuring out what mine will be. Kind of fun...but I am anxious to get a string on it and see! :pray: I shot one he just is finishing up that is the same design and close to same specs. Really love the way it shoots! But I was just wondering if you guys look at the specs of previous bows when starting another one. Then if you want to make a bow 5# heavier than the last one you start with a little thicker glass, or do you thicker on veneer or the core? Of course if you go thicker on the core then it will respond quicker...????? It is fasinating to me being a greenhorn at this.
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"Then if you want to make a bow 5# heavier than the last one you start with a little thicker glass, or do you thicker on veneer or the core?"
For 5 #,usually start with core first,then glass,veneers last.
Try to stay with 20 to 25% glass for rule of thumb.
Many methods tho!
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what was the decision on the cores kenny. if you dont try hickory i am gonna have to. and its really hot and i'm kinda lazy blah blah!! just kidding. can't wait to see what ever you do on those test bows. i appreciate you sharing valualble info.
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Tony,the first bow is gonna be a-boo core. Then from the looks of it :
red elm
maple
hickory
So,you may have to start one,cause it'll be a few weeks before I get there!! LOL
I still have to spray beans and go to MOJAM!!
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Kenny, are you gonna have a booth at MOJAM?
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Kevin, I'll be there,but don't have any non glass bow stuff this year,so no booth. Just visit and loaf a bit!!
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Might see ya there. Walnut's not on this list? :saywhat: LOL
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Walnut might be bow #5, may be 6 mo. out tho! LOL
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What about yew or cherry or walnut for the core. I wonder how thay would stack up against the boo? I hear people say that they like walnut and cherry better than the boo. What is your experience kenny?
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I think you should do boo, maple, yew, then walnut.
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Kenny I have the Laminations ready to ship they are white I can send sone Black to you to try in one of the test bow if you want Fedora custom bows is testing some of the E Glass & Firefly Jim Jones is trying it let me know right a way we have it perfected even the clear and all colors
Piper's Bowtuff
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black walnut give a nice natural camouflage ,when the grain is thin and the wood dense it is said to be very good
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Curious to see where this goes.
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Balsa wood, boo, maple, yew, walnut. In that order.
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I gotta get started on these,I AM gettin closer!! Hang with me!!
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OK, risers are gonna be zebra with a curved .125" strip of curly hickory (white) sandwiched by 2 pcs .050" black glass.
Glued 2 up risers this afternoon.
1st bow will be
.040" black glass
all nat a-boo core(4 lams)
.355" total stack (edit,oops)
.003" per inch taper
18" riser
mild d/r form
Stay tuned,this will be an ongoing project.
:cool:
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:bigsmyl: :bigsmyl: This is gonna be awesome!!!!
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Balsa wood? Has anyone ever tried it. It might be light like foam cores if it would bold up?
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I don't know if anyone has ever tried it or if it would hold up. That's why I recomended it. I think it would be cool to make a boo, balsa, yew, bow.
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Got # 1 glued up! Will be workin on lams for # 2 shortly (red elm core)......
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I have never used balsa on a bow but I have made numerous high performance model aircraft wings using a foam core and a balsa skin. I am always amazed at how tough the combination is. When I think of balsa between glass smothered with smooth on my gut says "Interesting, Very interesting!"
pete
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I think the next bow should be balsa.
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I think the sheer strength of balsa would be a problem.
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I'm thinking about making another recurve with black walnut as a core wood. Any experience or ideas on that....how about just regular walnut???
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Kenny I'd like to see the difference between the maple and action boo. I'm going to be ordering some more pretty soon. Got one left to build but kind a waiting to see where this thread goes.
Shawn
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how about actionwood? I have a friend that works for a well known bow company that says their actionBOO bows are only 3-4 feet faster than their actionwood bows. So I guess some of the natural tapers/paralells like Red Elm or Maple can have a better cast than the engineered tapers. I also assume actionwood and actionboo would be more "consistant",stable and predictable than regular edge grain tapers when trying to meet a certain weight. Thanks to KennyM for taking on this project
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OK, by my count,now it is maple next,then walnut,then red elm.....
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Here is where we are,will glue up the next tomorrow I hope... Kinda plain so far!
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d34/kennym/100_2137.jpg)
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d34/kennym/100_2136.jpg)
The inspector had a run in with a bee!!Had to go to the doc,her nose holes were swellin shut!!
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d34/kennym/100_2133.jpg)
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Looks good and please make sure the inspector gets some TLC and some ice cream.
Shawn
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My Sister does the same thing when She gets stung.
I'm Watching this closely Kenny. Going to dive in head first before long. I guess I'll learn like everyone else. JUST DO IT.
Hope to see You at Mo-jam. Are You bringing veneers with You this year?
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I can bring some Brett,what did you want? I will just make sure to bring them!
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How about some of that great looking Cedar
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Brett, give me width and thickness and I'll have em there!
On the testing, the a-boo lam deflected 2- 7/16" the maple lam deflected 2" but both bows came out identical weight. ??? The limb width is very close within a few thousandths, I figured the maple would make a couple more #s. ??? Got to check the actual limb thickness to make sure of it. Should have weighed the lams before gluing!
The deflection was measured by clamping the .050 parallel lam to the bench with 8" hanging over the end,measuring th the floor,then hanging a spring clamp on the end and remeasuring.
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Kenny I'm just sitting back watching this one. Man I tell ya the Kingwood with a swoop looks pretty darn good.
Shawn
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OK guys,here is preliminary testing on first 2 bows.
Both 64" d/r longbows,zebra riser,.040" black glass back and belly.
One with all a-boo core,one with all maple core.
.355" total stack with .003" total taper
18" riser (zebra with curved curly hickory accent sandwiched by 2 pcs of black glass)
By my scale,
a-boo made 49.5#
maple made 50#
Shot both bows with a measured draw of 28" and a sloppy split finger release.
608 grn arrow
a-boo core 152 fps
maple 152 fps
461 grn arrow
a-boo 174 fps
maple 174 fps
Shot thru a Pro-Chrony digital with a lite kit for indoors.
I thought the maple would make more #s per thickness and the aboo would be faster per # of bow.
I am learning......
My pro shop buddy has a Hooter Shooter he said I can use for more exact data. I think I'll take them both to the same exact weight if I can before I go there.
Thanks for being patient, got lots going on!! :knothead:
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:thumbsup:
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Good work Kenny! That's a lot of work in the name of science.
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Way to go Kenny, that is very interesting. I would have guessed the maple to be a little faster. Bob
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Kenny thank you for doing a major task and sharing your results.
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Have you guys read any of Traditional Bowyer
Bow Building Book By Jack Harrison. It is a huge book! Anyway he states that actionboo only shows improved stats over hardwoods at bow lengths of 66" and up (NTN).
He has some interesting ideas and the most comprehensive step by step instructions for building a bow with a take down sleeve.
Some of the interesting ideas include:
Using only 1 lam
Gluing the riser to the belly glass not to lam
Trapezoidal sides
where to place carbon fiber.
Interesting read, might have some applications to this test.
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Thanks for the info Kenny. Now to see what happes with the elm stacks
Shawn
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Bob,
I figured the same,the maple checked stiffer per thickness on my bench test,but showed no difference in the bow. As a side note,the maple bow shows about 1/4" set after shooting in,the aboo bow still fits the form....
Tom, I may need to get that book to read this winter......
Shawn, red elm is my next victim!!
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So do you think the maple will lose performance overtime due to its set taking properties?
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IMO , no , because it hasn't changed since first stringing it and leaving for a few hours....
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Good stuff Kenny! Not what I was expecting either.
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Kenny, was it set after shooting or springback after taking it off the form?
I've noticed that when I'm laminating maple and hickory for anything they always spring back off the form a bit more than the other stuff I'm using. Those woods being stiffer per thickness will resist taking the new shape more than the more flexible woods.
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Tommy6 I have the Harrison book. I like the science behind what he says. I noticed in his book that he also said the boo was good at 62" and longer as well. He said any bow 62" and longer he uses boo and below that it he uses Maple, action wood or osage I think. He also said a two lam bow was 10% faster. Maybe because the epoxy is heavy and the more lams the more glue and therefore more weight. Where is the part about gluing the riser to the belly? I was thinking about trying that but don't remember reading about that in the book.
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I dont have the book with me but I believe that he mentions it a few times, check :
Chapter Nine, Step # 4 — Laying Up The Limb Lamination Bundles.
I believe its in there.
I think you are right about the xs weight decreasing performance, multiple lams would do that, also the main reason for trapezoidal sides.
So many variables it can make your head spin!
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Would be interesting to see down the road if the bamboo will keep the shape and compared to the maple. Then later chrono them again.
ive heard Boo is know to have the weakness of setting.
Tommy
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Jeremy,I didn't check the springback til I laid the bows on top of each other,it was after shooting. So,I really don't know if it was springback.....
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Interesting. I always heard that Maple core would be faster and Boo would be a smoother draw. Great test Kenny. Thanks
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You're welcome Steve.
But as was pointed out by a respected bowyer last weekend,the next maple bow may be way diff,but the a-boo will be very close. A reason why customs have a-boo in lots of em. The #age will be very similar from bow to bow.
When you build on a schedule,you gotta hit weight!
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Started the last 2 test bows today,think I'll finish them before I go to the shop with the hooter shooter.
These are walnut core and red elm core. Plan to glue one tomorrow AM and the other maybe Sunday.
Did one riser today and will do the other after the 1st glue up.
Gotta get my camera hooked to this dang computer,for black glass, these are SHARP!! :cool:
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OK, gettin close! Gotta build one more due to a brain fart in the shop. Went to trim the ends of the walnut core bow,cut the 2nd end on the nock line instead of cutoff. It is now a 62" bow,I trimmed it down to 50 # and will chrony it along with the others.
Just a few pics to let y'all know I'm still workin on em!!
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d34/kennym/testbows002.jpg)
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d34/kennym/testbows004.jpg)
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d34/kennym/testbows007.jpg)
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d34/kennym/testbows008.jpg)
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d34/kennym/testbows012.jpg)
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d34/kennym/testbows005.jpg)
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wow kenny those look sharp :thumbsup:
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Nice. Ehhh... Kenny? Do you have my adress?? Lol
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Nice work Kenny! What are you going to do with these once your done with the test? Can I start the opening bid? Or at least put my name on the list.
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Whens the big hooter shooter date? Looking good Kenny.
Shawn
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Kenny, those bows really look good, the black glass really sets off the wood in the risers. Great work!!! Bob
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Two more and you will have a six pack Kenny
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Thanks guys!!
Dano,
I really don't sell em,got 2 going to charity benefits,2 more to a buddy and a bro-in -law.....
Shawn,probably a couple weeks,gettin ready to glue up the walnut # 2,I think thats all I'm gonna do for now!
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Man those are beautiful.
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Looks great. Very nice
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Got the 2nd walnut bow almost done this weekend.Will sand it and shoot finish on it nites this week!
It came in 3# lite,I suspected this on the first one that I accidentally cut too short,it finished at 53# @ 28" on a 62"bow,shoulda been 56# on a 62",been gaining 6# for 2" pike.
Guess I'll just shoot a lighter arrow off it... Probably try to use 9gpp arrows on all of em.
Gonna try to set up to run them thru the shootin machine Fri AM, one of em needs to go to a benefit for Children's Mercy in Kansas City Fri PM at Lake of the Ozarks
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Those are gorgeous man!
Really great of you to put them up for charity too.
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Like Marines in formation!
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Sweet line up!
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Beautiful!
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Fine work Kenny! Looking forward to the final results. Thanks for posting your progress
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OK, here goes!
Shot with mechanical release on Hooter Shooter
These bows were made as close as possible to each other with
64" length
.355 total stack
.003" per inch total taper
4 wood lams
2 pcs black glass
18" riser
10 strand D97 endless string
brass nockset
Here is the data,I used the same arrow for all bows(sorry,limited time with hootershooterbefore sending one bow to charity auction!)
The arrow weighed 437 grains
All bows chronoed at 28" draw length
Actionboo bow
48 #
181.1 fps
Maple bow
49#
182.1 fps
Red elm bow
49.8#
183.0 fps
Walnut bow
46.5#
181.1 fps [TYPO !!! Shoulda been 180.8!!]
:knothead:
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Now for some fun info...
62" walnut bow same specs just 2" shorter
51.6#
187.8 fps
My hunting bow with string puffs 62" bow
52.9# @28"
186.5 fps
w/o string puffs same bow
192.1
29" draw-56.8# (7.69 gpp) w/o puffs
200.8 fps
30" draw -59.4# (7.36gpp) w/o puffs
209.5 fps
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Draw force All are 64" except noted,all gain even 2.5 out to 32 except 62" at bottom
A-boo
48@28
57.7@32
Maple
49@28
58.5@32
Red elm
49.8@28
59.1@32
Walnut
46.5@28
56.3@32
62" walnut
51.6@28
53.9@29
57@30
59.6@31
63.2@32
Gaining avg of around 2.5#per inch except the 62" bow is gaining faster after 29"
This data was collected to the best of our ability,YER MILEAGE MAY VARY :cool:
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Love that Elm!! I gotta get me a a 32" draw. :bigsmyl:
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Looking good Kenny, bows and performance.
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:clapper: Thanks for the good info there Kenny and I know that I appreciate taking the time out of your schedule for all of us to see the results. Interesting results.
Shawn.
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Dano,I can draw 32",but I'm gonna lose an ear or a nip,so I refuse!
The mechanical release makes even my bows sound faster! LOL
I enjoyed the whole deal,especially the hootershooter,wish I had one of those! They are a little spendy for me tho!
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Kenny- great info-thanks- I'll put that elm I got to use soon and probably in the 62" range instead of the 64"- your bow design is better than you let on- a very nice bow to build and shoot.
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Thanks Dave!
Heres Jeff,he helped us test,his equipment there!
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d34/kennym/testbows027.jpg)
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d34/kennym/testbows028.jpg)
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d34/kennym/testbows030.jpg)
My huntin bow,man its yella!!
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d34/kennym/testbows031.jpg)
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d34/kennym/testbows032.jpg)
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Originally posted by Trux Turning:
Kenny- great info-thanks- I'll put that elm I got to use soon and probably in the 62" range instead of the 64"- your bow design is better than you let on- a very nice bow to build and shoot.
Yes, it is! I love mine! Going to build another one soon.
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Just noticed a screwup and went back to original paper notes!! The 181.1 on the walnut 64" bow was the fast shot,avg was 180.8
Sorry about that!! :banghead:
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Nice work Kenny!! Wow!
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This is a great experiment. I was looking at the numbers and it looks like the walnut is the most efficient core material in this test on a per poundage basis.
Dividing the fps by the poundage:
actionboo: 3.77 feet per second per pound
maple: 3.72
red elm: 3.67
walnut: 3.88
Of course you know that you can't stop with just this test. How about the same thickness and tapered stack using only 2 lams? Do the additional glue lines in a 4 lam stack affect the cast?
And how much faster would the bows shoot the same gpp at 32" as at 28"? Shooting the same arrow at different draw lengths is changing 3 different parameters (spine, gpp, fps).
Very cool test. Thanks for sharing your knowledge with us.
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Kenny, this was an outstanding experiment and what excellent results from your bows! I think it is a testament to all the fine work you've put into tinkering that form over the years. Thanks for taking the time to do this, I am impressed!
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Hey Kenny,
I'm new to all this, and haven't got to the stage where I'm needing this yet! However I really enjoyed it and do think this thread should go under Topic Archives and be kept for future referrals!
Thanks for the hard work!
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Thanks guys,I'm thinkin about building one with a 4" tip wedge to stiffen the tips and shorten the working limb......
I would stay with same stack to get a #s increase(?)(guessing about 3# more) and check speed with same hooter shooter!
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Kenny,
For a guy like me just trying to get his feet wet in this stuff this was very informative.
Really enjoyed it.Great thread. And by the way those are some beautiful bows!
:thumbsup:
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Thanks Ed !!
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Have you tried natural bamboo to see how it compares to the actionboo. I'd think it would be faster without all the extra glue.
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I would love to see the tests with stiff tips. Thanks for the information. Does any of the bows you shot feel better drawing back over the other? Out of those limb cores which one was thge lightest as for weight of the material?
Thanks
Bob
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Jesse,I have not tried nat boo yet,that would be an interesting test tho!
Bob,I must be insensitive as all getout! I can't tell boo from maple!
I didn't weigh the lams,but the walnut came out about 5# lite both times and was slightly quicker I think.
This winter I plan on doing one with a tip wedge,and tiller before gluing on grip caps. Then I can add a tapered glass belly power lam if needed.
Just built a jig to taper glass .050 to 0 in 11"
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Kenny, I got that bow put together with a PW 6 inches past the fades- the tips needed some help so I added a 4 inch tapered glass on the tip belly which stiffened the tips up. After trapping there was only a few extra lbs added to the expected finished weight- but it shoots very fast and hard for a mid 40# bow.
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Very nice bows Kenny!!
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Purty bows! Please throw my name in!
And thank you!
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add me thank you
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I've decided to build a bow next week for the ongoing test....
I think I'll build a walnut core,black glass just like the others,except add a tip wedge.
Then if that works the fades too much,I'll add a glass .050 to 0 power lam before putting the grip cap and window accent on. I can even test speed before and after on the p-lam.
Even thinkin on to the next test already..... :p
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Sounds good cant wait to see the numbers. I havent tried the tip wedge but a power lam in that form performs great and feels really nice. How long you going with the tip wedge? I was goint to try a 10 incher in black glass when I had the chance. Just to see.
Shawn
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Was thinkin 6" in from nocks,maybe .006" per inch or so. Gotta warm the shop and lay a couple bows on the table,1 strung,one unstrung and study a bit....
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Thanks for taking the time to do this testing Kenny. I cant believe how fast you can turn one out, yet maintain such quality. This testing seems as good as it gets, since all bows are being built so close together.
Ken
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Thanks Ken,ideally they would all turn out the exact same width and weight too,but that is part of the test to see diff #s for diff wood cores! LOL
I'll be interested to see how much diff in weight and performance the tip wedge and p-lams make....
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I am very interested too. I really want to learn about the tip wedge and what it does for performance and strung profile.
Someone tell me, this may be one of those tested and proven wrong ideas but would trapping mid limb out to the tips help if the tip wedge works the fades too much? Maybe the tip wedge can alow more trapping at the tips since wood is 8 times as strong in thickness and only 2 times as strong in width. I wonder if trapping the belly in effect takes wood strength from width or thickness the most. Hopefully width because I was wondering if adding tip wedges would allow you to take more weight in wood off by trapping the belly at the tips than you added by inserting the tip wedge (maybe 2 or 3 times the weight) and still have stronger and more lively tips than normal due to the wedge, but lighter due to trapping. Use a carbon tip wedge and it could even be more net weight loss. Carbon is lighter than wood right? That may even look cool like a racing stripe. Don't you just insert the wedge somewhere between the laminations?? I too think it would be cool to chrono this one before and after each modification you decide to do.
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Hey Kenney I love what you are doing here. To have a complete test it seems we need two more bows made the first way. One with Osage and one with real Tonkin cane cores. I believe that the Tonkin would be the fastest. The action boo has the glue which is heavier and makes it about the same in my mind. But what if the glue was not in there? There is something to Tonkin. The flyrod makers all swear by it. Plus Osage should be tested. I have made many wood bows and it is the best IMHO. What do you think Kenney?
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I have heard and read a lot about tip wedges and how it's supposed to add performance, but i have never seen how it's done. I'm looking forward to see how those bows with the tip wedges perform. The bows you have built earlier are just AWESOME ( I love that black glas ) and they perform great. I wonder how much of a difference the tip wedges can make.
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Jason, trapping may happen after profiling same as other test bows. Want to go as close as possible to them to see speed and weight diff.
My next test has to do with the thick/width scenario,a narrow bow. Just havent figured out the thickness if I narrow yet. I don't have carbon here,so probably the litest wood I can come up with for tip wedges.
I am planning to test after each mod,no rush this time...
bmgarto- I had already thought of the tonkin,I agree a-boo glue lines may take away from the speed.
I have an osage veneer and amber a-boo bow I'm hunting this year. It was included in the fun fact part of the test..
Swissbow- I will give updates on each modification including weight and speed changes..
MAN, I enjoy this kinda stuff!!
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Actually carbon an glass are heavier than wood. They are lots stiffer than wood so you have to use less.
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OK, that helps me understand how carbon lightens the limbs when used compared to a non carbon limb. In that case carbon for a tip wedge is a bad idea. It would make the tip actually heavier than if using a wood wedge. So even on a sleeker single or double carbon bow limb a wood wedge would be the way to go.
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Glued up the next test bow today , walnut lams with a natural aboo tip wedge .050 to 0 in 6" in from nock grooves. All else is the same as the other 5 test bows.
Planning on testing speed before gluing on grip cap,then I can add a glass power lam to the belly if it needs it before the grip cap goes on.
Dave Bulla from KC was up and helped me lay it up,real nice guy to drive clear up to help!
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:campfire: :coffee: Just waiting to see what happens here. Could be interesting.
Shawn
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OK, had a bit of time(took time off from redoing shop)
Ground out the limbs ,1/16 narrower than other walnut bow,came in 2# heavier with tip wedges(6" below nock)
String angle looks superb at 28",haven't checked at 30 or 31but i will against the bow without wedges.
Will probably allow longer draw before stack?.
Gonna mark the drawn bow on a sheet of plywood,then mark the other 64" test bow I still have to show diff in full draw profile.
The aboo(nat) wedge looks really cool in the walnut core!
Gotta ship an order and go huntin! :bigsmyl:
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kenny, how did you get the tip wedges to stay put. i am thinking about using them on the current twins i am making. both will be the same as the limb kids bow i just did only 60 or 62" with a goal of 40# and 55# i think the tip wedges will help increase the draw length. i thought about CAing a Popsicle stink across the lam just under the tip wedge. to keep it from sliding. going to pin the lams at the riser this time. i put some hard thought in to that but i think since i have to use an overlay for this design it should be ok.. finally got brave enough to cut up some of the coco and rose wood i had.
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Almost like cheatin,
Laid the lam and wedge like they go in the bow and folded 3/4" masking tape over the end of them.
Pressed it on firmly,then just hinged it with the tape to glue. They stayed right there!
This part cuts off anyway,you just gotta cut the lams so the t wedge is the right length to come out where you want it.
I started out 11" long wedge and had to cut a couple inches off the thick end of the wedge.
Gino has used CA I think,but said it had some kind of reaction with the smoothon...
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Here is the diff in strung profile at first look,it may change after finishing the new one. Pencil line is bow with tip wedge,I figured it would bend more off the fades?
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d34/kennym/008.jpg)
And the slight change in string angle...
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d34/kennym/009.jpg)
More to come... :coffee:
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Can't wait kenny,for us hobby bowyers this kind of info saves a lot of headache on our next project.Thanks for all the work and sharing it,Dell.
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Thanks Dell!
Shot thru my chrony with my inconsistent release:
Maple core bow(49#) showed avg of 175.6 and 189.6 with 2 arras(weight unknown ,scale loaned)
Walnut core (48#)with tip wedge showed 179 and 190.8 respectively
The hootershooter will tell the tale,but I hadda run em thru!! :bigsmyl:
More later!
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At first glance it looks like that walnut with tip wedge is more efficient. And efficiency appears to really shine with a heavier arrow.
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You know,I thought the same,but I may have had that "NEW BOW I WANT IT TO BE FAST" thing goin.
You know where you pull it past your ear tryin to get what you want!!
I shot 5 shots on each bow with each arrow,same string. Wrote em down as I went.
The hootershooter will be more accurate! :cool:
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I thought you would get more with the power lam and tip wedge. i will see what i come up with in a week or two! what is the total length of your working limb? (between the power lam tip and the tip wedge) I am looking at about 16.5" with my new design. i think i found a chrono at work, so i may be able to do some decent testing. wasn't the walnut faster w/o power lams and tip wedges already?
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I don't have the p-lam on yet,was gonna test before and after installation! Only tip wedges.
The walnut appeared to be a little faster,but you need a bit more lam stack to get weight,kinda like red cedar.
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great stuff here... now I just need to take notes and build a form! :)
thanks a bunch.
Bob
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I was lost at the "trapping" talk until I figured out you guys were talking about trapizoid tapering of the limb sides. So I grabbed my Kerner longbow to see how Bill did it.
Starting at the riser, he has the narrow side of the trap on the back of the bow for about two thirds of the limb. Then he transitions to the belly for the last third to the tip. Totally befuddled. Need trap 101 course! I'm heading out to the shop for my Kerner Mountain bow to see how he did the trap on it.
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Fantastic work Kenny. Can't wait to see the results of the hootershooter. I would love to see a close up picture of the tip wedge.
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That I can do, if I can find it in my shop,we are redoing and insulating!
Think it is helpin,11 outside this AM,38 in the shop with no heat! Shoulda done it years ago!!
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when it hit 45 in my shop i bought a space heater!!! working at 38, your more of a man then me!
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Oooooh no,not workin in 38,just have the heat unhooked while I redo that corner,was just commenting the insulation is gonna really help!!
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Now I know why you guys build such fantastic bows. You are so dedicated to bow building that even low temperatures can't keep you from doing what you do.
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thats much better!!! i could just imagine, thermal underwear and my fleece gloves would make precision work a challenge!!!
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Here is a pic of the wedge in the limb,the other test bow is under the one in progress. You can see the limb on the one with wedge is bending a bit more at midlimb....
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d34/kennym/024.jpg)
And one of what's happening in the shop this weekend!
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d34/kennym/021.jpg)
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nice shop kenny wish i had one like that!!! how big is it?
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Russ,it is 22x30x12 hi, if you look at the unfinished wall,it is made in the end of a pole barn,we studded between the posts and added insulation and 1/2" plywood. Gonna give it 2 coats of white paint for light. Can't have too much lite!!
Gotta get it done soon!!
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what a shop... I have to work outside!!!
and it's snowing... grr.
I'm one jealous man :p
Nick
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Hey Nick,I worked outside for 40 some years! Try to get a shop earlier in life!! ;)
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thats one heck of a poll barn!!!! i think eventually you have to call it a timber framed structure!!
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By the time I put the stuff outta the shop,the back end is full and it is twice the size of the shop! LOL
Man,can stuff accumulate,lots of it needsto go,but can't quite get rid of it!
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Kenny, that's the don't need it until you don't have it stuff.
Frank.
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Thanks for the picture of the tip wedge. A picture says more than a thousand words.
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That boo wedge does look good in there with that walnut.
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Hey Kenny- Thought I would pass on some numbers for you on the bows with and without p-lams. Both bows are 62" and my draw length is 27".
Bow #1-no p-lams or tip wedges.
42#s @27", arrow weight 445 grains, 158 fps
Bow #2- 6" past fade p-lam and 4" tip wedge.
45# @27", arrow weight 445 grains, 174 fps.
Shooting B-50 (12 strands) on both and finger release.
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Dave,that looks like its workin for you!! Good deal!
If I can get my shop redone and work on the test bow and bowhunt a little,I'll be much less stressed!! LOL
Hope my test bow shows as much improvement!
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Did you ever get the results on the machine with the bow with tip wedges and PL?
Thanks
Bob
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Bob, I did shoot it and wrote it down,but lost the info in the shop! I will shoot it and the new 60" with builtin pl and tw and try to post it. This weekend is lookin like a bust for farm work,so the shop will be home for me!! LOL
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Sounds great, look forward to hearin the report.
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Will be looking for this also.
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I pasted this from p6 so we don't have to go back and forth..
64" length
.355 total stack
.003" per inch total taper
4 wood lams
2 pcs black glass
18" riser
10 strand D97 endless string
brass nockset
Here is the data,I used the same arrow for all bows(sorry,limited time with hootershooterbefore sending one bow to charity auction!)
The arrow weighed 437 grains
All bows chronoed at 28" draw length
Actionboo bow
48 #
181.1 fps
Maple bow
49#
182.1 fps
Red elm bow
49.8#
183.0 fps
Walnut bow
46.5#
181.1 fps [TYPO !!! Shoulda been 180.8!!]
Here is the tip wedge/powerlam bow stats:
walnut core,aboo tip wedge,glass p-lam on outside on belly(add on) 48.5@28",same string and arrow 437gr (9.01gpp).
It shot 187 avg or around 5 fps gain.
I can't tell any differences in shootability,so I guess it is free horsepower!
:scared:
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Send me the bow kenny, I have a four gpp arrow.
(I think ibo is 70#@30" 350grain arrow)
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Kenny, If I am reading this correctly the Black Walnut limb lams give the most zip to the arrow of all tested.
Sounds like the glass powerlam did a bang up job of upping the fps, as well.
Thanks for the hard work and giving us a report on it.
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I agree with Bocote. I love Bocote with black glass!!
AkBillyBow
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The walnut seems to give just a bit of edge on speed but you have to add about .005 to .010 on these bows to get weight.
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Kenny,
In reviewing all of the pages I never saw anyone suggest Ironwood (lignum vitae). I read or heard somewhere that it is the densest of all of the natural woods and it has been documented by some self bowyers to be an awesome bow wood rivalling bamboo for strength. Can you get your hands on this stuff? I would also like to know from the arborists out there if the lignum vitae is the same "ironwood" we find here in WI?
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Well I did some additional research on Lignum Vitae and it is not a native species in the US. It also looks like it is the hardest and heaviest of all the wood species. That doesn't sound like it would make a good core wood, but it does sound like an excellent riser wood!
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Eric, in the selfbows it may be really good, I'm not up on them too much.
But on glass bows, weight is not desireable in a lam , only light and stiff.
It does sound like great riser material.
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Good stuff Kenny
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The real Lignum Vitae is VERY difficult if at all possible to glue. The wood is self lubricating and was used as bearings for boat propeller axels. Today only smaller pieces can be found. Very heavy and strong in all categories. Bue--.
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Roy, I saw that before the edit. I am mortifided.....
:laughing:
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Kenny I see where you were getting some pretty impressive numbers by adding a powerlam and tip wedges to you design.
Are you still liking this option? I notice you have not built your more recent bows with either one.
thanks
tenbrook
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Yep still usin em, guess I just don t take time to mention em cause they are builtin to a .001 taper. That way I don't have to keep track of em during layup.....
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This has been a very good read. Kenny you da man.
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Thanks Mike, glad you enjoyed!
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Talking about wood and it is native here (it just dont as a rule get too big)is sassafrass. It is light weight like elm and I am bettin would perform just as good using edge grain.And it smells nice when you grind it. But for consis tency from lam to lam A-boo or actionwood is hard to beat.
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Sassafrass is all I use for core anymore.I can get it for next to nothing and makes a smooth quick shooter.
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"But for consis tency from lam to lam A-boo or actionwood is hard to beat."
That is fact for sure! I can't tell that aboo is any smoother, faster, etc,etc, but it is easier to hit same weight with than wood lams...
I've heard sassafras is good core wood also! Just can't get it here locally.
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Originally posted by kennym:
OK, gettin close! Gotta build one more due to a brain fart in the shop. Went to trim the ends of the walnut core bow,cut the 2nd end on the nock line instead of cutoff. It is now a 62" bow,I trimmed it down to 50 # and will chrony it along with the others.
Just a few pics to let y'all know I'm still workin on em!!
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d34/kennym/testbows002.jpg)
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d34/kennym/testbows004.jpg)
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d34/kennym/testbows007.jpg)
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d34/kennym/testbows008.jpg)
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d34/kennym/testbows012.jpg)
(http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d34/kennym/testbows005.jpg)
Sorry to revive this thread but may I know from the picture which bow is which?
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I think it was a good revival, don't mind seeing nice bows again. Bue--. :)
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Here's one I did with black glass Kenny front and back. the black accent is ringed gidgee, but wenge would be similar and any lighter wood would look okay as well
(http://i1256.photobucket.com/albums/ii485/bigbob292/003-7.jpg)
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Good work Kenny and good read. I would of voted for zebra cores. As you know thats what I been running now. Ill be calling you, my Ibeam bow strings with good curves but the weight is way low off the new form. My daughter will love it.
Lou
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I'm guessin from left- aboo , red elm , maple, and walnut. Been awhile, so can't remember...
Luis, how bout a pic of that bad boy?
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Thank you Kenny for the great test. From what I see, there are very little difference between the core woods. Walnut seems fastest per pound followed by action boo and maple/ red elm. Though it looks from the pictures the walnut bow has a shorter brace height (from angle of the limbs ) and the action boo bow has a shorter string serving which could give those 2 a small advantage.
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One thing after another over here Kenny. Got a frozen caliper on the diesel for easter! Smoked my brakes.
I have to shape the riser grip, be a while yet.
Lou
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This is a great thread! Good work Kenny, and thanks to all that contributed.
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I agree and want to thank you for the products... I will have lots of questions but with your help...and form... I plan on making a few bows.
thanks!
Bob
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Any updates or new findings with any of the bowyers that have posted on this thread?