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Main Boards => The Bowyer's Bench => Topic started by: Pat B on February 04, 2011, 11:52:00 PM
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Back in '06 my friend Kenneth invited me out to hunt elk with him in the San Juan Mountains of
S W Colorado. It was my first and so far last Elk hunt so I wanted to build a bow specifically for this hunt...and "Elkie" was born. 60" t/t, 3 layers of sinew on osage with timber rattler back covering. 56#@26"(tillered out to 29")
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/DSC00532.jpg)
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/DSC00534.jpg)
Kenneth with Elkie at full draw...
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/DSC00543.jpg)
Elkie on a red rock ridge above our Colorado elk camp.
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/Coloradoelkhunt064.jpg)
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After the hunt I gave Elkie to Kenneth for inviting me out to hunt with him and his hospitality while there. A few months later Kenneth called to tell me the sinew had started lifting from one limb. I told him to send it back to me and I'd see what I could to make her better again.
Here is how Elkie looked when I got her back.
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/highresELKIE002.jpg)
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/highresELKIE004.jpg)
I stripped the sinew off in sheets. Each limb was sinewed but not tied together through the handle(another lesson learned)like it should be.
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/highresELKIE006.jpg)
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Skip ahead a few months and I have the time to get back to working on Elkie. All the sinew was stripped off, the back was sanded to remove the old hide glue and clean up the back. I ran my toothing blade along the back to give something for the sinew/hide glue to adhere to and wiped the back down with alcohol.
I sized the back with 2 coats of hide glue and put down the first layer. I started at the handle and went out each limb so both limbs would be connected with the sinew. These pics are after the second layer was added about 2 weeks after the first. Everything was looking good so far. I planned to add one more layer of sinew to even up the back before adding more snake skins.
Before sinewing Elkie I tied a loop of sinew around the handle and with the tips up on 2x4 blocks I pushed the handle down and placed the sinew loop under a screw hook in the form giving her some reflex for when the sinew was dry. I just sinewed over the sinew loop with pland of cutting it flush after the sinew job was cured.
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/Elkierebuild1-13-11004.jpg)
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/Elkierebuild1-13-11002.jpg)
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/Elkierebuild1-13-11005.jpg)
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/Elkierebuild1-13-11003.jpg)
"...but the story never ends!"
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Jump ahead another 2 weeks...a few days ago I noticed that about 1" of the sinew at one end had lifted. Uppon further inspection I also noticed that about 8" had lifted from the middle of the other limb. Today I began to gingerly peel the sinew "sheet" from her back. It came off in one continuous sheet...
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/Elkierebuild1-13-11001-1.jpg)
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/Elkierebuild1-13-11002-1.jpg)
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/Elkierebuild1-13-11004-1.jpg)
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/Elkierebuild1-13-11006.jpg)
..so here is where I am today. I thought about soaking the sinew sheet in warm water to seperate the strands for reuse. I have had a few suggestions and think I'll go with the one Art Butner gave me.
I will sand the back smooth and clean it again with alcohol or acetone and seal it with a good varnish. When the varnish cures out completely I'll reglue the sinew "sheet" back down with TBIII. It should still get the benefit from the sinew and Art assures me it will work. The sinew sheet is in the coutour of the back so mating them should not be a problem. I also noticed today that the sinew sheet is about 1" shorter than where it came off the bow showing it had drawn the bow into reflex. I'll pull Elkie back into reflex so the sinew fits the back perfectly before glueing it back down.
So from here we will just have to see what is in the plan for Elkie. We have been invited back to Colorado this fall for another chance at elk and so Elkie can earn her name and so I can enjoy another fantastic week in the San Juan Mountains chasine old Mr.(or Ms)Wapiti.
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Pat, that is a bummer! It appears you are doing everything possible. Good luck with the TBIII; I switched to it a couple of years back and haven’t had any problems.
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I have zero sinew experinece Pat, but I use TBIII all the time for almost everything. That stuff doesnt let go. I bet you latest repair will work perfectly for ol "Elkie".
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Get er done Pat. I'm sure Art knows what he is talking about and I'm sure you will end up with a sweet bow.
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Yeah Walt, especially since She was a gift for Kenneth. Elkie has tought me a lot about sinew bows and patience but the patience is getting thin! d;^)
Pearl, I've had good luck with TBIII with other projects and if Art says it will work, I have no doubt it will.
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Good luck, Pat. Any ideas as to why the sinew lifted after the first attempt to repair "elkie"?
Stan
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Hope it works out for the best. I was kinda wandering if tb3 would work with sinew? I cant see why it wouldnt.
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What hide glue? Knox? Your a much more patient man than I.
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Okie, TBIII works fine with sinew, even for applying it instead of hide glue. When used like hide glue it doesn't have the same recovery as with hide glue but the two are compatable. In this application the sinew is imbedded in hide glue so I should get the benefits of that combo with the security of good adhesion to the bow with the TBIII.
Red, I have no idea. I thought I was doing everything right but must have contaminated the back somehow. The sinew/hide glue just didn't adhear well in those places.
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Pat did you heat it with oil? If so you think it may have retained any and it seeped out? Just a thought maybe if it is getting sinewed dry heat with out oil. You know I really dont know just trying to think of reasons it my have happened.
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Pat, sounds like your plan for Elkie will work out fine. How did you get Timber Rat. skins, I didn't know you could get them because their a protected apecies in New York.Is that you in the third picture- That guy looks alot like me. Im 5' 8" 142 pounds. B.O.L with your Elkie repair
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Kelly, I did use oil when I initally built this bow back in '06. The sinew seperated from the bow in a different location this time from the last. I still have no idea why. This was one of my first sinew backed bows.
Knawbone, that timber rattles skin came from GA or SC many years ago(probabbly 33 or more) but I don't believe they are protected there. I know Eastern Diamondbacks are.
BC, I used hide glue for the initial sinew backing but I will use TBIII to re-glue the sinew/glue sheet back down to the bow.
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I had a bow do almost exactly the same thing. No matter what I did, the sinew wouldn't stick. I think some osage just has too much oil in it for sinew and hide glue. That was before I starting using TBB3 though. I'll be very interested in your results with it.
I'm going to CO for elk this year too, northern though. Gotta make a special bow :)
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John, I'll be making another "special" bow too for Colorado if I get to go. Probably a simple straight limb osage bow.
I got Elkie's back scraped, sanded and wiped down with acetone before adding the first of two coats of Defthane clear poly and will add the second coat after 6 hours. I'll give the poly a few days to offgas before putting the sinew back down with TBIII.
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Pat, there was a guy over on the PA board some months back that had the same problem as you. His sinew backing came off in a sheet just like yours. Using the prescribed proceedure like I mentioned he sucessfully glued it back down with the TB3 glue. Believe he wrapped it down with an Ace bandage or something while it dried....Art
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I should have her glued back up in a few days. I'm looking forward to shooting Elkie again. She was always a nice shooting bow.
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I'm curious as to why use varnish before re applying the sinew. Varnish being an oil based finish and not an adhesive. Why not size the bow with thinned waxless shellac or better yet TB 3 ? I have little experience to offer here but it seems the wrong direction.
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Good lesson learned here. I'm anxious to see your results. Best of luck with the hunt in Co!
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You do tackle some interesting projects, ol' buddy. Keep on keepin' on, and best of luck with it - and the new Elk hunt.
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Snakewood, I think that the TBIII has better adhesion to the varnish than to the raw wood. At least that is my understanding. Shellac may also work, I don't know. Also, because Art said it works. He has never steered me wrong and has given me more good advise than almost anyone else I know. For me that is good enough.
Why exactly, you will have to ask Art. I don't have to completely understand something for it to work. If that was the case I would have miserably failed with wood bow building years ago.
Guys, lets just keep our fingers crossed about the success of this bow as well as the success at getting to GO elk hunting. Taking an elk is down on the list, going is top priority. Taking an elk on my second elk hunt is as predictable as winning the lottery...but I'll accept either with without reservation! d;^)
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Good luch with all three, Pat! Elkie, the elk hunt, and the lottery! :D
Stan
ps
I have a red oak board bow (one of my first) finished with polyurethane. Could I sinew over the finish, or should it be sanded first? It came out under weight and I was hoping the sinew could add a little strength.
Just wondering...
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Someone who uses hide glue should do a test and see if the stuff will stick to a varnished surface. I know that sinew will adhere very well to a scuffed up varnish surface using Tite-bond glue but an alternative for cleaning the backs of Osage bows would sure help a lot of folks. You see this problem with hide glue/sinew not adhereing well to Osage way to often.
Red Hill, what type glue are you thinking about using? What length/width is your bow? Have no experience with sinewing red oak though. Sinew backing will put more belly wood under compression so trapping the sides would be a good idea to help relieve this. Probably a good idea with red oak anytime. Good luck........Art
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Art, its a pyramid board bow. Approximately
1 7/8" wide and 68" long. I'd like to use hide glue.
Stan
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Good luck to you Pat, I hope it works out well and I'll be watching this saga unfold from the other side of cyber space.
I have had similar experiences with flax comb and layering it just the way you did with the sinew, being sure to overlap/interweave the ends of the fibers so they lock together. I used TBII on unfinished Osage surface and I have gotten seperation later on. I think that alot of it has to do with the oil content in the Osage. If in fact the varnish will "Bond" itself with the natural oil in the wood, then the TBIII "Bonds" itself to the varnish........I think you and Art may be onto something?
You got 3 different materials there that you have to appeal to....varnish to osage.....TBIII to varnish....Sinew with hide glue to TBIII......and they all have to mingle together in harmony.
Rather than work against the oily properties of the Osage, use it to your advantage? It just might work.
I hope it works and I hope the sinew stays put this time, it will be interesting to find out how it does over time.
Hope you get to go on your elk hunt also, that's something I have dreamed about since I was a teenager.
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That's way to long for any sinew job Stan. Can you cut 'er down a little? What's your draw length? Any possibility of a hickory backing at this point to raise the bow's weight? Art
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Art, this is one of the first board bows I made. It isn't strong enough for hunting but shoots well. I considered shortening it to increase poundage and I thought of adding hickory. Another board bow I tried both of those fix-ups on failed so I'm leery of a repeat.
Since it is a simple board bow there's no loss.
Thanks for your help.
Stan
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A 1/8" hickory backing on your oak pyramid bow and glued up in about 3" of Perry reflex will kick your draw weight up quite a bit, more so that sinew on that long of a bow.
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Pat, Good luck on Elkie. I'm sure she'll pull through, no pun intended. Anxiously awaiting the verdict. Got to love that Osage. There's just something about Osage, I really do like it.
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I just saw this Pat,I would suggest 4-5 coats of thin 20% concentration hideglue,let it dry between each coat then just take the peeled off layer of sinew dip it in glue and lay it on and wrap with ace bandage,it should work.
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Too late PJ. I glued the sinew sheet back on Elkie yeaterday with TBIII. I will add another layer of sinew to even out the surface then back it with snake skin.
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I wrapped Elkie with strips of old bed sheets when I glued down the sinew. After a few hours I removed the wrap. I';; let her sit in the form for a while and am going to add one more layer of sinew to smooth out the back before skinning. Here are a few pics.
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/sinewbacked001.jpg)
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/sinewbacked002.jpg)
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/sinewbacked003.jpg)
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Wow Pat! if patience is a virtue you sir are saintly!
By the way,I just noticed your tagline. When I lived in NC I used to flyfish the Davidson in your neck of the woods. Along with everyone else :p
Good luck with Elkie and your trip and the Wapiti as well! They have been kind to me so far in AZ - since I've taken 2 cows in 3 trips. I really want to get a stickbow ready before this years hunt, assuming I am fortunate enough to be drawn again.
Jeff
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Jeff, I don't fly fish but I have heard that the Davidson is one of the ten best trout rivers in the US. It sure is a pretty river.
Elkie is a special bow and she has an elk in her future. When done I'll give her back to Kenneth and make myself another "elk" bow if I get to go in Sept.
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Well, she slaped me again! After 2 days I unclamped Elkie. I floor tillered her to see how her limbs were bending before bracing her. As soon as I put pressure to the lower limb I heard a pop. I rubbed my hand down the sinew backing anf just past the lower fade it sounded hollow. I checked and found 4" had pulled away from the bow.
I have tried plan A and plan B so now for plan C I have removed the sinew(again), lightly scraped the old glue and varnish off and sanded her smooth. I will put a rawhide backing on her and that will be that. She just doesn't like what I'm trying to make her.
Elkie still feels pretty strong. After the rawhide I'll check her weight. She may yet take an elk! You just have to keep a positive attitude!!!
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Bummer Pat! TBIII let you down. I didnt see this one coming. Maybe URAC would hold tight?
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Sorry Pat, I made a bow for a friend and put raw hide on the back and he is still shooting after two years.I mean this guy shoots a lot and pulls to 30" it is holding great (knock on wood). I put sinew on one and broke right on the bat, I won't do it again.
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Hey Pat.
Thanks for your patience and openness in cataloging this saga of Elkie for us. It certainly gives us a chance to show each other that we are not alone in the frustration of bow building and hopefully some of the beginners will be encouraged to keep going when things don't work out.
Did you try the sinew on bare rough wood yet? I have not sinewed a bow but it seems to me that wood glue wouldn't stick well to varnish. I used to do some furniture restoration and that was my experience anyway.
Just ignore me if I'm adding to your frustration, but I am curious about the varnish vs bare wood thing. If I had some sinew here I'd test it myself. Maybe I'll have to get some and try it.
Thanks again Pat, and if you do make it back down to the San Juans give me a shout. I'm in Grand Junction.
CJ
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I thought you were suppose to let the hideglue cure for several weeks before stringing it....? Just asking, what do I know about it. This is all new to me!
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Sorry to hear that Pat. Sinew takes a lot of time... man that sucks. :banghead:
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This bow just didn't want to be sinewed. The first sinew job when I originally made the bow back in 06 was on bare wood with Knox. I tried hide glue on bare wood again with this most recent sinewing and it failed. I tried the TBIII over varnish and it failed(Art Butner has used this method successfully). Only about a 4" spot just out from the fade came loose. While I removed the sinew it was difficult to remove from everywhere else. In some spots the glue was still attached well to the varnish and in other spots it all came off to the wood.
I have no doubt that I can get rawhide to stick so that's where I stand now. I'm going to get a new bottle of TBIII before I put the rawhide down.
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I see that you wrapped the bow Pat but did you also clamp or rubber strap it down? TB glue does require a certain amount of clamp pressure for maximum results.........Art
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I just used the cloth wrap like I use on rawhide or snake skin backings, Art. It's behind me now. Rawhide back coming tomorrow after I get a new bottle of TBII or TBIII. I think she will be at least 50# without the sinew backing. The rawhide is only because I toothed the back and being thin ringed osage I feel safer with a rawhide backing. She may yet get her chance at an elk. If Elkie is happy, we are all happy! d;^).
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Head 'em up! Move 'em out! Rawhide!
Go Elkie!
CJ
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Even at 50# and with those bamboo arrows of Kenneth that should work quite well for elk I would think Pat........Art
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Pat B.......you are amazing, I would have thrown in the towel on the 4th or 5th redo. I hope it works and and sends an arrow right thru an Elk... :thumbsup:
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Well pat this is one for the story books. I just wish you could find out why this one did not like the glue.
CaptainJ,
I have an aunt, uncle and cousin in Grand Jucntion. Small world.
Kelly
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Kelly, I'm curious too but at this point I ain't gonna worry about it...on this bow. I know now things to do and not to do the next time I decide to build a sinew backed bow. Even though it's been disappointing and discouraging at the time Elkie may show all of us just what she is made of. d;^)
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Originally posted by KellyG:
CaptainJ,
I have an aunt, uncle and cousin in Grand Junction. Small world.
Kelly
Wow, it sure is!
Be sure to look me up if you ever get out this way.
Dinner's on me! Thanks for your service.
CJ
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We will wait with baited breath for a pic of you, Elkie and an elk!