Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: Onestringer on February 22, 2008, 10:29:00 AM
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I spent some time yesterday in front of a chronograph with two different bows. Both bows are 44.5 lb at 28" 62" bows and both are 47.5 lb at my 29.5" draw. I know because I put them on a bow scale just after shooting through the chronograph. I shot three different arrows the lightest being 432 grains. Bow one is mine a Black Widow PSA the second is a metal riser bow with ILF carbon and foam limbs, very high dollar. Same 14 strand D97 stings with one set of cat whiskers and a brass nock. My black widow averaged 177 fps and the other bow averaged 180 fps with the 432 grain arrow.
I achieved what I thought I would get with the black widow, but I was surprised with bow two I figured it would be faster.
I see posts on here all the time with people shooting 50lb bows at 28" and shooting 500 grain arrows 185 fps or faster. So how do you do it.
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I think 177 with a 44 pound bow is pretty good. My widow PSAV is 51 at 28 and it shoots a 525 arrow in the 180's.
I have a black swan impala that screams, same arrow just over 200. the impala has a 10 strand string though..dont know how much difference that makes.
It may be like rifles, some just shoot faster or slower than others.
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i've got a cousin who can consistantly get 10fps
faster than anyone else,with the same bow,at 28" draw.for example,all the people i know get around 180 with their widows.he can take those same bows and get 190 all day long.he's obviously getting a much cleaner release than anyone else.i wouldn't let the speed bother you.you're right in there with most other people.
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Alot of things effect chronos. If the arrow doesn't go through level, light, release, arrow spine, not to mention whether or not the chronos are calibrated. I have seen 10 fps between chronos. I have also seen wood vs carbon shoot different speeds with the same weight. The best use of a chrono is to see if you are getting a consistent release, by getting the same numbers through 5 or 6 shots. That said I always ask about speed in a bow because that transaltes into energy. It should be used as a rule of thumb, not a constant.
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I'll only speak about the ILF because that is what I use.That is over 9 gpp with the ILF.Not too bad though you might expect a little more.
A good release or a bad can make 10 fps.One Chrono to another can make 10 fps.A different string might make 10 fps.The time between the testing and the telling can add 10fps. :rolleyes:
My ILF recurve drawn to 29 in.at between 6-7 gpp shoots 212-220 fps.The ILF would shoot a lot faster with a lighter arrow.IMO that is the best guality of the ILF.The ability to handle light arrows for targets.
Speed is ok but it doesn't really matter for hunting.You can't shoot faster than an animal.I've seen too many guys dissapointed in their bow after a chrono test when they loved it just before.
IMHO a chrono is best used to test your consistency not a bows speed.
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Try taking the catwiskers off and see what difference that makes. I had a 45 lb bow that with 2 full size catwhiskers 1916's were a little stiff. I started snipping one strand at a time from each whisker and the arrow shot weaker. I took the catwhiskers off and put on wool puffs and 2018's bare shafted perfect. You'ed be surprised how much rubber cat whiskers slow down a bow.
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neat stuff right here...
Bow/arrow tuned perfectly. Perfect release. So many other variables as outlined above.
Bowyer no longer in Biz I knew got some tremendous speeds... and advertised them. I was in his shop once and watched him shoot 250 gr. soda straws with 90 gr. tips to get that!
I guess that he wasn't lying...but it weren't totally honest either!
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Onestringer
I have a couple (well, 5) BW's, all SA III's or PSA X's. All are 50# @ my 29" draw. Each of them will shoot 185 to 187 with a 500 grain arrow. I think a couple of keys to that are:
1. I have an honest 29" draw. 29+ on hot summer days as I can stretch out a bit.
2. Folks refer to a clean release. What is really required (and ALLOWS for a clean release) is maintaining back tension through the shot. When I shoot, I am extremely aware of maintaining back tension and therefor not creeping forward on release. Creeping is an absolute KILLER for arrow speed. Nothing you can do will rob more energy (and thus speed) from your shot than creeping.
3. Your arrows must be tuned to the bow. Not just good enough to fly well, but dead nuts perfect.
All of those things contribute to higher readings on a crono. There are other factors but those are the ones that come to my mind first.
Hope that helps.
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We were playing with the chrony at the shop I work at (we have an archery department) and I brought in my new Martin Hunter that is #55 at 28. I have a 31.5" draw though that was averaging 230 fps with 550 grain arrows. They guys in the shop were impressed, I didn't understand why though until it was explained to me. I guess with that draw weight and length and the fact this martin with a FF string is really 'fast' can get them sizzling.
I have since added 100 grain inserts so I don't think I'm going that fast now...
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JDC, your right about Danny. He shot my 51#@28 PMA last year through the chrono and hit 200fps. He does have a smoth release. I think i shot it at 192, or some thing like it. He was getting 192-193 out of my 46#@28" SA11. It's all in the release, i guess. (My arrows are around 450grns.)
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I agree with most of the others, where speed is not a paramount testimony of a bow's worth. I have a really short draw of 26" and the fastest bow that I have ever chrono'd to date was a widow shooting 182, 56#@26" with around 550 grain arrow. To me accuracy, quietness, and pleasure shooting my bow all come before speed. I believe speed is important because it translates into energy, just not my number one concern. I currently shoot 625 grain carbons out of a 54# bow, and it aint fast by any means, but it packs a whallop. Just my 2 cents. Mark
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Dont get caught in the speed thing thats bad medicine....If ya find one that shoots decent say 480- 580 gr arrows let me know too...oh I just said dont get caught up on the FPS...opps! LOL mark#78
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okay Jesse and Larry, I'll tell you the secret.....
I let go of the string REALLY, REALLY fast. :biglaugh: :biglaugh:
remember "fast is fine...but accuracy is final"
Wyatt Earp
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When we played around with a chronograph, we found not only the harder release got more speed, but also with longbows a bent and active bow arm made a difference. Problem was the fast bow was not the one I liked, so I ignored the chronograph.
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I chronograph my new Hummingbird takedown recurve 50 lbs @ 28 in. , 2016 cut to 29 in. with 125 up frount and shot in the upper 180s consistantly . My arrows weigh just under 500 grains and are tuned the best that I can tune them . Now my old Hummingbird takedown was the same draw weight and shot in the upper to mid 170s so like others have said diffrent bow preform diffrent even of the same model , draw weight , and arrow .
Mike
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I'm probably getting around 130 fps out of my deer/hog slayers. I don't need any more than that. My arras go right thru dem critters.
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Thanks folks, I was just wondering. The only thing I can figure is my release stinks.
Scott
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I've owned some of the fastest longbows, hybrids and recurves, from low 50s to mid-60s poundage, and never shot over 180 fps with any of them with arrows heavier than 500 grains. Fastest to date was a BW. These day, since I hunt elk, I am looking for 160 fps with 650grn arrows. While speed is negotiable, arrow weight is not. If I were hunting pronghorn or Coues whitetail, I'd go down to 450 and try for the greatest possible speed, as I do for turkey. Everything is relative to the game we're after.
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although not long in the tooth with shooting my Trad bows, I chrono'd my bows the other day and found a tremendous amount of speed difference when using different nocks.
I initially chose my nocks based on colour - yes I know I'm a tart, but hey them is the joys of buying new stuff, but I had one set that clipped nicely on, but seemed to easily slide around on the string - these also came off the string cleanly (on a nice tap) but because of the string/nock loose connection these came off the string some 20fps then my tighter clip/string coupling.
so that may be a factor also?
cheers
Joe
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To answer your question. They stretch the truth. Sorry, I couldn't resist. :bigsmyl:
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Warning: chronographs are inherently deceiving! Unless you know for a fact that the chrono is properly calibrated, you are just ********* in the wind. You can cheat them, too. I work for a company that makes compound bows, and have used chrono's calibrated to Norb Mullaney's graph that is the industry standard, so to speak. Most graphs are not accurate, or even close. You also must have an accurate scale for weighing bow and arrows, or you will not be getting an accurate reading. Also, if you hold at full draw, AT ALL, a guy who is skilled at shooting through a graph will beat your speed every time. The string (and cables on a compound) stretch when you hold, and you lose a few feet, or more. I would bet that the average traditional setup for hunting averages in the low to mid 180's on an accurate graph.
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Diamond P is right! I have access to only two chronos, and they never agree ... and the difference a cloud passing overhead can make is amazine. So for the most part, all of our well-intended comparitive speed talk is unreliable, since so few chronos are reliable (like scales, our wives would say!).
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P.S. And ... have any of you ever noticed a dramatic decrease in speed as you continue to shoot the exact same combo through a chrono, as if it's getting tired? ...
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....the importance is not in the time it takes to get there....but how long it takes to slow down!!!
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We have to have something to talk about. Besides, if everyone had the fastest bow then the bowyers wouldn't sell anymore and would go out of business. We all need to work so let's do our part to support them. :goldtooth:
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First the weight of the bow has nothing to do with it. It is how efficient the bow and design is. A 40# bow of the same design will shoot as fast as a 60# bow of the same design, all else being equal. ie. same draw length, same gpp. of arrow weight. I believe your chrono may be off. I found my Widow recurves when drawn to 29"s and shooting 9gpp. shot about 185-188fps. I like 8-9 gpp. and my Schafer and Arroyo will both get me over the 190 mark and the Arroyo will get me close to 200fps. with 8gpp. drawn to 29"s. Shawn
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Speed only kills on the Highways. Accuracy and a silent bow is much more important than speed. If I wanted more speed, I would shoot a Compound.
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Speed measurements when used correctly can be VERY useful.
Take 2 50# bows shooting a 450 gr arrow at 28".
Both quiet and accurate for the shooter.
1st shoots the arrow 165 fps.
2nd shoots the arrow 185 fps.
Number 2 stays in my rack - #1 is down the road.
Read threads every day about optimizing your setup thru broadhead type, arrow wght, using the most poundage you can accurately shoot, etc........
Why is not shooting the most efficient bow that meets your other criteria given the same importance as broadheads etc?
Steve
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So if a compound shoots more efficient than my stickbow, I should use the compound? Two bows that shoot 20 fps apart, neither the shooter or the deer would ever know the difference.
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Speed, low noise and accuracy are not mutually exclusive.
For some reason, trad bow speed threads always seem to bring out those who think a quick bow is a loud bow that nobody can hit anything with. Yes, a 55 lb bow shooting a 300 grain arrow will be quick, and loud. But there are plenty of quick quiet bowhunting setups out there. It is not an evil wheelie bow conspiracy that some of us are engaged in when we launch a few arrows through a chrono.
Any noisy bow setup is a poor setup. Quick or slow. But I'll take the quick quiet bow over the slow quiet bow any day.
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Thanks guys, I did not mean to start an arguement, just wanted suggestions on why I can't shoot faster. Clean release I can work on, the nocks though I never thougt of that.
Yes I know accuracy is the most important thing, noise is also a consideration.
Thanks for the input
Scott
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There is a reason , Actually several that all good target archers tie their knock points.
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Originally posted by Dave2old:
P.S. And ... have any of you ever noticed a dramatic decrease in speed as you continue to shoot the exact same combo through a chrono, as if it's getting tired? ...
Unless you're shooting an all wood bow, if your chrono numbers aren't the same on the 1st shot as they are on the 101st, it's not the bow that's getting tired. It's you. ;)
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No arguements here, we are just offering different opinions.
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I have to agree with Otto on this one. I shoot a RER Arroyo that will shoot with the fastest bows out there. It is also one of the quietest bows I have ver shot. There are a lot of bows out there that will smoke an arrow and are very quiet. Why not have the best of both worlds. JRW is correct, the shooter starts creeping after so many shots, thus getting different results. Shawn
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So if a compound shoots more efficient than my stickbow, I should use the compound? Two bows that shoot 20 fps apart, neither the shooter or the deer would ever know the difference
If you want to, then you certainely should.
But there is absoltely nothing in my post to suggest that.
If a shooter can't tell the difference in 20 fps, I don't know what to say - every good shooter I know could tell immediately.
2 bows of equal accuracy and quietness - 1 shooting 160, the other 180 means the second is 12% more powerful. To say this does not matter when I see countless threads on improving penetration thru broadhead design, arrow wght, etc makes no sense to me at all.
Not argueing - just stating logical opinion.
Steve
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LOL Steve, I agree. But it's always fun to mess with guys a little when they get to talking about speed:)
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I had to put some weight in my arrows for one of my bows, it simply shot too fast. I would never have thought of a fast bow being a problem before, but at the speed it was shooting I had no time to watch the arrow fly. This is not good for an instinctive shooter. I dont know about everyone, but I have to be able to see that arrow fly to the target so my brain can learn and compare that trajectory and performance. If it's going too fast I miss that, and I dont shoot as well. Once I slowed those arrows down a little, my groups got way tighter, the bow got way quieter, and a heavy arrow is always hard to beat. Worked out great all the way around.
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Every bow I own will shoot 200fps+ and every one will shoot 160fps as well.The performance is there to use as you see fit by changing arrow weights.A balance of speed and noise is the way mine are always set up.Between all the best bows I have not seen a difference that a few grains of arrow weight or a couple lbs of bow weight won't equal out just fine. :D The shooting qualities of a bow is what is the most important thing.A bow that shoots well for you and allows you to hit the mark most often is better than all the numbers in the world.Sometimes we just get lucky and it is a bow that has those qualities and performs a little netter than the norm.Most times it is stll a compramise that we make the final decision on when tuning. ;) With a static release I will shoot any bow 5-7fps faster than a buddy with the same draw length.The numbers have more to do with the shooter sometimes than the bow. jmo
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Oh yeah, by the way, unless you are using a clicker or some other such device to check your draw length every time you shoot, graph readings aren't going to be relible, either.
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Originally posted by James Wrenn:
The shooting qualities of a bow is what is the most important thing.A bow that shoots well for you and allows you to hit the mark most often is better than all the numbers in the world.
The numbers have more to do with the shooter sometimes than the bow. jmo
Amen
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I have to have something to blame for my shooting deficiencies. :goldtooth: Can't spell either.
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I don't know how many of you shoot gloves versus tabs, but I average about 6 fps faster with a tab on anything I shoot, even on wheelie bows.
I think release has a lot to do with it. my 45# predator is upper 170s with a tab, low 170s with a glove on me. 45#@28" 447gr @ 28.5 draw
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I have a bow that will pop over 220 a 510 grain arrow at 27'' draw, without putting powder on the shooting glove it drops to 212, at the draw i am now shooting it dropped to 202- 206. I am much more accurate with a lighter bow I have that shoots 188 with the same arrow, providing I remember than powder.
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I get over 200 fps with a gamemaster that I thought I was pulling 47 but after testing it is 52 at my 27 1/2 draw. I shoot Accs. If you put the das silence kit on it, it stays at over 200 fps and it is incredibly silent. I just switched to a cordovan tab and I think I may be shooting faster. Fast is key for hunters, a deer can drop fast and they will almost always hear the whistle of the feathers. Even a slightly faster bow will always result in more meat in the freezer in the hands of a quality archer. If you also use broadheads that have any perforations in it like a magnus snuffer SS there will be even more whistle.
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I recently purchased a new Sheepeater Spirit and thought a cold day like today would be a good day to run it through the chrono. While I was at it I did a couple more so here is a comparison.
The Chrony is an F1 Archery model.
The first bow is a Sheepeater Spirit. It is a clear glass over Bamboo static recurve, 50” AMO. The second is a Border Black Riever Super, a 1 piece recurve with hex limbs that is 60” AMO. The third is an Adcock ACS CX 1 piece that is 66” AMO.
All three bows are the same draw weight, 47# at 27”. My draw length during this comparison was 26 ¾”, and the shots were made using a leather glove. All shots were made using the same arrow for each arrow weight, and were made 4 feet behind the chronograph.
I shot three different weight arrows, a 363 grain carbon, a 400 grain carbon, and a 525 grain aluminum. I shot each bow three times for each arrow weight, then averaged the speed of the three shots.
The Sheepeater Spirit in order of arrow weight; 173.8, 166.9, and 147.6 fps.
The Border Riever in order of arrow weight; 177.6, 171.2, and 153.4 fps.
The Adcock ACS CX in order of arrow weight; 184.5, 181.6, and 162.4 fps.
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Finger Lakes bowhunter, sorry but fast does not equal more dead deer, quiet does and the hunter knowing his game. Sound travels over 3 times the speed of our Trad. bows. I think ya can have both a fast and quiet bow, but speed definitely does not kill. Also you have to be shooting well under 8gpp. to get those numbers with your hoyt as they are no speed burners by any means and at 27.5"s there is not a bow out there that will shoot over 200fps. at 9gpp. Shawn
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quiet does but unless you are shooting vains there is no way to quiet your arrows. While a deer can hear the arrow coming it can not drop fast enough if the arrow is going fast enough. Do not know what you are talking about with the hoyt. I shot it through a chrono and on the modern archery dvd they show somone that gets 216 with his. They even make a point that it shoots faster than the master das bows.
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96 pound pull bows will get huge speed with stiff light arrows, but they are not fun to shoot with that setup. Low fifties with 160fps is more than enough for what I do.
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A whistling arrow just gets a deers attention.He will listen but seldom jump even with hissing broadheads.The noise from the bow is what sets them off not the arrow noise.
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Out here everyone and their mom hunts we also have latenight spotlighter that illegally shot deer. Any noise makes a deer drop. If I was hunting near my folks in suburban philly I could honk a blow horn and run up to a deer with an axe and probably kill it. it is all about where you are and what the hunting pressure is like.
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Well I hope you have found something that will work.I have my doubts however because I have already been that route. :bigsmyl:
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See, here's another hidden danger of the chronograph: it makes you unhappy when your bow doesn't shoot as fast as you think it should (or as fast as you think it was)! I'll have to agree that speed is overrated, especially on trad. bows. I have seen deer duck arrows from compounds shooting over 300fps, so a deer can duck any arrow. I would also have to say that some of the speeds I've seen here are, frankly, the result of graphs that aren't accurate. If it shoots good and it's quiet, it'll work. If it shoots fast and it's loud, it may not. JMHO.
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Ok so in order to get a 50 pound bow shooting faster, I'd suppose you need to shoot a lighter weight arrow, correct?
So here we go again, which penetrates better, a lighter faster arrow or a heavy slower arrow? The slow heavy arrow will! LOL, ya just don't mess with a Trad guy who has a fast shooten Bow. Or we get threads like this:)
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Originally posted by BAK:
The Sheepeater Spirit in order of arrow weight; 173.8, 166.9, and 147.6 fps.
The Border Riever in order of arrow weight; 177.6, 171.2, and 153.4 fps.
The Adcock ACS CX in order of arrow weight; 184.5, 181.6, and 162.4 fps.
Thanks BAK, that pretty close to what I found
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Originally posted by Shawn Leonard:
Sound travels over 3 times the speed of our Trad. bows. Shawn
Shawn,
Thank you, for Speed kills the speed of sound is 1130 FPS. Thats 6 times what we could call a fast trad bow.
scott
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My slow bow shoots good. It is quiet and accurate. (http://www.geocities.com/roy2953/DCP01357.JPG)
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LOL Onestringer on sights, and no we don't need no stinken sights:) But I think if ya add a sight to your Trad Bow, it will shoot 30 FPS faster:)
But really here, I am an old fart of 59. I joined an Archery Club way back there in 1970 when I was a pup. I shot bare bow back then, but there were guys who did have sights on their stickbows. And at shoots there were classes for bare bow or sights. It was amazing how well them boys could shoot with a sight on a recurve back then. There were guys who could shoot perfect scores and would give any compounder a run for their money. And there were even fiber glass arrows back in the 70's, prolly even before that. Now they call them carbons:)
Now here I am an old fart maken BBO Bows and maken my own wooden arrows and I make fun of guys who shoot with sights or carbon arrows.. And I just love messen with guys who get into that speed thing:) I guess it will never end, the egos that drive us crazy Bow Hunters..
But to me, any Bow Hunter is a good Hunter, cept for them Compound Guys. LOL..
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Onestringer, from what I can tell by shooting many different recurves and longbows through chronographs.... a good performing bow will do 175-185 fps with 9 gpp @ 28". A great performing bow will do 185-195 fps. Much of the leeways have to do with string construction, tab/glove, and string silencers. When somebody says they are getting 200 fps with 10 gpp, they are either shooting a longer draw or the chrony isn't right.
For all you "speed bashers"... the reason you don't think it matters is because you probably don't shoot at anything further away than 15 yards to notice the difference.
:knothead:
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I had BW target bow that was 42lbs. The fellow I sold it to had a 29'' draw, with it he shot 6 arrows through a chronograph and every arrow was 200- 204 fps. the arrows were 1916s, I do not know if the chrono was accurate, but it said my Schulz longbow was faster with heavier arrows. the numbers could have all been off, but using it for making a comparison should have some merit. However, I am not so sure that at 25 yards the trajectory of bows that are 10 or 15 fps different is all that much to consider. My favorite bow these days, is considerably lighter and slower and just as deadly on deer.
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My DAS, with Samick Extreme longs, set up at 55# at my (also) 29 1/2" draw, shooting a 550 grain arrow...that's 10 gpp...will do 190 even, if I do my part (release). I can drag it down by 6-8 fps if I don't pay attention to expansion and release.
My chrono is not subject to the same failings most of those $99 shootin chrony and other junk is...I have infrared screens on a CED chrono...best bang for the buck in accurate chronographs out there IMHO. That's said having shot lots of the other cheaper brands to my frustration point on several occasions. The CED is a few hundred, but not too bad.
-Rob
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The above post has a typo...instead of just editing it, I wanted to correct it here. It should read that the DAS will do 180 at 10 gpp at 29 1/2" DL. NOT 190...
I did some testing at 28" and 29" AMO tonight as well at 10 gpp. 28" produced 170ish (I was trying to draw to a mark on the shaft to the center of the plunger, so there may be a little error..LOL) and the 29" draw produced (predictably) an average of about 176.
Hope these numbers make more sense to folks. Also, this is shot with an Angel Majesty string with 6 little (1 inchers, maybe) puffs in the string....two at the contact point, and one each at the 1/4 and 1/3 points.
-Rob
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I took a couple of my bows to the archery shop to run through the chrony just for grins. I draw 30" to the front of the riser so I think that is about 29AMO, All 4 bows shooting the same arrow. 450 total wgt goldtip
ACS [email protected]
Morrison shawnee w/copperhead skins, [email protected] even
Border ultra w?foam hexV, [email protected]
Robertson prergrine, [email protected]
With 502 gr goldtip arrow
ACS ....189
Morrison....188
Border....189
peregrine....179
I am posting these as a comparison, not intended as a scientific study
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How do you shoot 185 fps? Balamce the arrow weight to the draw weight, and most modern trad bows will go 185 fps or more at 9 Gr. of arrow weight per pound of draw weight, 'cause that is what everyone is designing and building for.
Whether you want, or need, to shoot 185 fps, more or less, is a matter of what you are trying to do. More speed for flatter trajectory, less for quieter shooting.
In my hinting experience with whitetail deer, a 50# bow with a 450-525 gr arrow going 160-185 fps kills 'em fine. As does my 73# bow shooting a 675 gr arrow at 185 fps.
I like all the speed I can get as long as its QUIET. As you get over 200 FPS most bows make much more noise which will make a whitetail jump the string, spoiling the best accuracy you can muster. That flat-shooting arrow is no longer heading for the kill zone, 'cause the kill zone has moved.
So, it's back to shooting the heaviest arrow you can shoot accurately - it will be the quietest, and if you hit what you are shooting at, it should kill it fine (for non-dangerous game).