Post by: Don Stokes on August 31, 2018, 10:46:00 AM
I see nothing in it but a new name for string walking, which was not allowed when I was doing 3D shooting because (I was told) it was considered to be for target shooting, not a suitable method for hunting. I felt the same way about three-under shooting, which is almost the same thing as the crawl. It gets your eye closer to the arrow and reduces the gap between point and target.
As an aside, I never have my nocks tight enough for this to work for me- I would be dropping arrows. I like for the arrow to stay on the string without holding it, but just barely. The tighter the nock, the more noisy the release.
I would think that a bow would need to be tillered differently for this technique, to keep the energy balanced in the limbs. Where you put your fingers on the string affects how much pressure is put on the bow limbs when you draw. This would be my biggest concern. Three under shooters commonly specified a new bow be tillered for shooting that way, to make sure the limbs stayed balanced. The crawl is just a more extreme version of three under. There's a reason the split finger draw has stood the test of time. It's the best way to balance the forces you are employing by keeping everything aligned during the draw; by moving your hand down the string on a bow tillered for split finger, you add a vertical element to the forces. Not sure just how to express that clearly. Bows normally have been tillered with the lower limb slightly stiffer to allow for the split finger draw, which puts just a little more pressure on the lower limb.
Why not just go ahead and put sights on the bow? Do those of you who favor this technique get your bows tillered for it? I only watched one video, but that guy's bow was noisy.
Post by: wingnut on August 31, 2018, 10:50:44 AM
Rusty Craine is 74 and he's used this method since the 60s.
Sounds like your are "a crusty old fart who is set in his ways" after all. LOL
Mike
Post by: bigbadjon on August 31, 2018, 10:57:26 AM
Post by: bigbadjon on August 31, 2018, 11:00:06 AM
Post by: huskyarcher on August 31, 2018, 11:02:48 AM
I also have two friends that we got started this year and are completely new to trad archery that cant hit the broadside of Rosie O'donnell shooting split finger or instinctive, but will be toting a trad bow proudly to the stand next saturday with confidence because they can bust nocks at their effective range due to either A. a fixed crawl, B. shooting 3under or C. all of the above. That doesn't make them any more or any less of a hunter or archer than anyone else, it just means they use something different that works for them. One of them has to have cheek muscles that burn because of the constant smiling he has been doing thinking about opening day, that's what it's all about.
A recent study i read revealed that 33 states reported a decline in license purchases last year, we need all the help we can get. I don't care where their hand is on the string as long as they're legal, i'm just glad they're here.
Post by: bigbadjon on August 31, 2018, 11:08:36 AM
Post by: joebuck on August 31, 2018, 11:16:35 AM
My findings as it pertains to making my latest Swamprooter recurve and tillering for it
1. My new bow shoots perfect Bareshaft and fletched arrows at 18 yards tight as a tennis ball. TOGETHER!! Absolutely throwing an asprin. It is the tightest tuned bow i have ever made. I have never bareshaft an arrow and fletched ones this tight.
2. I am shooting my 60" Swamprooter T/D ....50# at 29" 181fps 540gr GrizzlyStick 320 TDT made by Victory Archery
3. Heres the Tillering Info part......I tillered my bow to EVEN tiller at 29-30" which came to a 1/8" negative tiller for my upper limb at brace. That still seems crazy to me having an upper limb stronger but my arrow flight is unbelievable.
4. i am shooting a low wrist grip with my fulgram in direct line with the middle finger of draw hand. the pressure point of my grip is located at the base of my thumb for low/no torgue grip...
Why? go to fixed crawl
1. I do not shoot 1000 arrows a week like i did in my 30's .
2.This system is so easy to maintain since i already aimed down my arrow and have a 2 second pause before my release.
3. I shoot critters 20 yards and in. period...THIS SYSTEM WORKS! it's awesome. It is a sight , no doubt the point of field point /broadhead is a sight.
4. I simply place the broadhead on the X then focus primary vision on the X and relax my grip while pulling through......BAM! as Emeril says! Automatic....
5. I miss the ole split finger days when I could grip and rip but...............this style is perfect for me now in the woods.
Come on Don....Crusty guys can shoot a Fixed Crawl...be a leader :goldtooth:
Get well!!! joeBuck
Post by: Doug_K on August 31, 2018, 12:37:37 PM
It's definitely more appealing to me than a sight, one of many reasons I started shooting a bare bow was to get rid of accessories that fail. That said I didn't like how noisy it was.
I plan on trying Ilf as a primary hunting bow next year, so maybe I'll revisit it.
Post by: Don Stokes on August 31, 2018, 12:39:45 PM
Post by: joebuck on August 31, 2018, 12:51:32 PM
Post by: pavan on August 31, 2018, 01:04:33 PM
Post by: katman on August 31, 2018, 01:25:32 PM
I don't use a pin sight because 1) something else to break in the field 2) requires bow vertical no cant, disadvantage in the woods. I can cant any angle with the fixed crawl and hit the mark.
Post by: Todd Cook on August 31, 2018, 03:21:59 PM
Post by: the rifleman on August 31, 2018, 03:28:08 PM
Post by: YosemiteSam on August 31, 2018, 03:44:14 PM
Facewalking is okay and I'm more comfortable with it. But something gets funky in my release from a high anchor (index finger just under my eye). I might have arrows tuned perfectly but once I get that anchor up there, I can start seeing my arrows bobbing & waving in flight like they're all out of tune. They'll hit the target just fine. But the arrows start showing way stiff (even using a clicker). Once I drop my anchor back to regular (mid finger in the corner of my mouth), they're back to laser-straight flight again. So I just shoot heavy full length arrows to close the gap more and keep a consistent anchor.
Post by: DarrinG on August 31, 2018, 03:49:42 PM
This past late spring, after a couple days of lousy, inconsistent shooting, again, I decided to try this "fixed crawl" everyone was talking about. I watched some of Jimmy Blackmon's videos. Seemed simple enough, and his accuracy was crazy-good using it. Set my ILF rig up even tiller and tuned the bow 3 under. Once I had bare shafts stacking in the same group as my fletched arrows, I started using the arrow tip at full draw as my aiming sight. Took a bit but soon I got my "point-on" dialed in at 21 yards. Stepped up to 15 yards and tied on another nock point with my "point-on set at that spot on the string. 15 and under it basically stayed the same. All of a sudden I had to be careful shooting groups as I was starting to ruin nocks on arrows.
And after months of shooting using this fixed crawl (I'd call it the old stringwalking technique also because it's really nothing new, just a fancy new name), those days of shooting well and then the next day shooting terrible seemed to be over. It made me consistent. I'm not a field archer or 3-D tournament archer, I'm a bowhunter. Killing game at my normal ranges is what I'm after, and killing them efficiently and quickly. Using this fixed crawl system has enabled me to be more accurate day in and day out. Sure I could put a couple sight pins on a sight but why would I want that extra stuff on my bow when the tip of my arrow is already there and just as efficient without worry of knocking a sight pin off its mark, or the extra weight on my bow?
I know that my confidence in my shooting is much higher this coming bow season than years past. I'll be putting it to the ultimate test in almost a week as our archery deer season opens.
Post by: T Folts on August 31, 2018, 08:25:30 PM
Post by: Morning Star on August 31, 2018, 10:21:15 PM
I cut the shelf at 2” above center and kept an even tiller. This will line up your middle draw finger with the center of the bow at an approximate 1” crawl. For this style of shooting, I find it provides great limb timing, low grip/wrist pressure, a quiet bow, and flexibility of moving up and down the string a little without worry of pulling the limbs to far out of time.
I haven’t had this kind of range, accuracy and consistency since l left the compounds behind 20 some years ago. It’s a vicious way of shooting once you iron out your form issues.
Post by: katman on September 01, 2018, 07:25:20 AM
Shoot your bow how you want to, "instinctive", split vision, gap, string walk, face walk, sights or whatever. Just do what works well for you, makes you happy and have fun. :shaka:
Post by: Roy from Pa on September 01, 2018, 07:51:17 AM
It can turn a guy who shoots split finger, but not very accurate, into a very good shot.
It's your bow, shoot it how you like, and let others shoot how they like.
Post by: katman on September 01, 2018, 08:13:33 AM
Also if you miss your mark with a sighting system you know its your form being off. Shooting "instinctive" I never new if it was my form or aim that had the arrow missing its mark.
Couple years back I put a sight pin on an ILF rig, really helped me dial in my form.
Post by: Morning Star on September 01, 2018, 08:46:40 AM
Post by: Roy from Pa on September 01, 2018, 08:47:05 AM
Back in 1971 I joined an archery league.
There were 2 classes back then, bare bow and sights.
The majority of the bare bow guys were string walking.
That's where I learned string walking way back in 1971.
Shooting indoors in the winter at a 3 inch bull at 20 yards, maximum score was 300.
My best score was a 276, which was pretty darn good shooting without a sight.
A few guys today that I shoot with on occasion, still turn their noses up at anyone who string walks.
I just smile and shoot like I shoot the best.
Post by: Morning Star on September 01, 2018, 11:28:50 AM
Post by: bunyan on September 01, 2018, 11:49:31 AM
Post by: bigbadjon on September 01, 2018, 12:02:50 PM
Post by: Morning Star on September 01, 2018, 12:16:49 PM
Post by: Don Stokes on September 01, 2018, 05:46:39 PM
As far as my concerns, my questions have been answered. If the tillering is right for the hand position on the string, the limbs would deliver the energy in a proper balance. If you can still cant the bow without messing up the results, that's a good enough reason to make it better than sights. Hmmm, I could switch the limbs on that 40# Patriot takedown to switch the tiller... that redhead across the road wants to learn to shoot, and she can get that bow back... I feel an experiment coming on.
Post by: Don Stokes on September 01, 2018, 05:54:40 PM
Post by: katman on September 01, 2018, 08:55:02 PM
To shoot with the bow verticle or canted with a fixed crawl I tune so I can gun barrel the entire shaft under my eye so when canted the arrow will find its mark.
Post by: flyonline on September 01, 2018, 10:06:45 PM
I really like the very similar sight picture and the very small gaps, and I have a piece of tape with each of the 3 p/o distances written on the bow so I don't get mixed up in the heat of the moment, and I have let down more than once because it didn't look right and realised I'd hit the wrong anchor. Arrows react the same for all distances because my hand doesn't move on the string, and I could easily shoot very different arrows out of the same bow. It also gives me a good indication of the flight of the arrow which for me is important shooting through trees/brush. Shooting instinctive I was never comfortable predicting where the arrow would travel even when I got reasonably proficient.
Was lucky enough to win a wooden recurve recently, but despite my best efforts I cannot get it to shoot nicely 3 (or even 2) under so I have to shoot split, but I just use exactly the same method as above.
It's not that hard to nock an arrow between two nocks without looking at it, but concede it would be harder in a thick glove in low temps!
Post by: Lakerat007 on September 02, 2018, 09:50:27 AM
Post by: Don Stokes on September 02, 2018, 12:09:27 PM
I've done a lot of experimenting with nocking points and bare shaft tuning. I tune just a smidge nock high. I don't know the exact spine I need until I get the nocking point at the perfect spot, bacause a high nocking point bare shafts straight at a weaker spine. Now I wonder if I would have to go down in spine with a higher nocking point for the crawl.
Post by: Sam McMichael on September 02, 2018, 09:14:34 PM
Post by: Roy from Pa on September 03, 2018, 05:42:43 AM
Lots of videos on it.
Post by: Doug_K on September 03, 2018, 12:28:22 PM
String walking is gap shooting, the archer just selects his gap on his string instead of at the target or riser.
Post by: Don Stokes on September 03, 2018, 02:12:05 PM
Plus, I'm a crusty old fart set in his ways. :)
Post by: Doug_K on September 03, 2018, 03:35:02 PM
Another concern is that beginning archers may not understand that just any bow won't work this way at maximum efficiency, no matter how good the technique is for improving aim.
This is definitely worth noting. Matt does a good job explaining most of the technique in The Push, but I don't recall if he touched on this. String walking is primarily a target system, where most bows are ILF. I also wonder how tune is effected going from a 40 yard crawl to a 15 yard crawl.
As for beginning archers & converts playing with it, most don't have the form or experience tuning to achieve anything near maximum efficiency as it is. If using an aiming system helps to nail down form & tune quicker, I'd say it's a good trade off.
When I converted I spent the first 6 months or so gap shooting with a recurve, though I didn't know there was a name for it, with pretty good consistency. Since then I switched to split for a couple years, then instinctive. Personally, as a hunter, I love the fluidity of instinctive on a good day. But I gotta say after 3-4 years of practicing strictly instinctive shooting with minimal improvement, my consistency probably would be better if I stuck with aiming.
Basically, what i'm trying to say is, I think a skilled & consistent instinctive archer is about as good as it gets for hunting. If the individual archer can't make it work consistently for him, I'd say don't be afraid to try something else just because of the "non-traditional" stigma. It's all traditional in my book.
Post by: Don Stokes on September 03, 2018, 05:32:40 PM
Post by: Roy from Pa on September 03, 2018, 05:55:04 PM
After reading and following this thread, anymore I am not sure what you want..
LOL
Just have fun and shoot the best you can with what you got.
Post by: GCook on September 03, 2018, 06:26:13 PM
Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk
Post by: Morning Star on September 03, 2018, 09:34:27 PM
Post by: michaelschwister on September 05, 2018, 02:44:01 PM
Post by: KeganM on September 05, 2018, 02:55:09 PM
The idea of being as accurate as possible with just the simple bow and arrow is fascinating to me, regardless of how it ultimately looks. The proof is in the pudding, or venison, as far as I'm concerned. Also, the idea of putting some metal/plastic gadget on my handcrafted longbow makes me feel... weird. I'd definitely try one with an ILF rig that was already tapped for it, though. Might try both and compare them side to side some day.
Here's a recent evening that relates rather well. Had some high school friends over a few weekends ago for some grilling. Two of them had only shot a bow once or twice, and that was probably with my brother and me years ago. After we got the fire going my brother wanted to shoot the 3d target, but no one else seemed interested. So I suggested we shoot at a rolling 5-gallon bucket lid with rubber blunts instead. Game on!
Our one friend is left-handed, but also the most athletic of our group that evening. All we had were right-handed bows, but he was determined. After a brief explanation of how to nock an arrow, we started shooting. After some close shots, the Southpaw Sportsman started hitting consistently! I started watching him closely and noticed that he had moved his fingers down the string to get the arrow by his eye so he could point it better, kind of squinting with his left. He had no idea what string walking was, or gapping, or anything, and we had only really shown them how to use the three under tabs with the simple instruction of "point it at the lid". Yet, he managed to put those pieces together and nail the plastic lid surprisingly well... wrong handed and all!
So, I'd say string walking seems to work pretty well for moving targets if you're using a backwards rig not meant for you at a close-ish range with medium-sized targets. Also, it appears that string walking is, in fact, instinctive for some archers! :laughing:
Post by: Don Stokes on September 06, 2018, 11:03:22 AM
I had the chance to shoot a bow made like Hoogerhyde's at the Howard Hill Championship when I was still competing. It was made by the famous English bowyer Duff, who came to the US after being bowyer for the Queen of England. A fellow brought it to the shoot, and to my amazement let folks try it. I found it rather sluggish, but my arrows were too heavy for it, and the bow was quite old. It was made with the bamboo laminations laid up at right angles to the back, with a backing piece added perpendicular the the laminations. I've never seen another bow made that way, except in handles.
I'm fully in favor of any style that gets the arrow in the target with perfect flight on the way there, so that penetration isn't hurt by the technique. Perfect arrow flight trumps every other consideration for me.
Post by: Roy from Pa on September 06, 2018, 11:42:15 AM
Quote
Roy, just powwowing around the campfire.
Me too, Don..
:thumbsup:
Post by: Terry Green on September 06, 2018, 12:03:38 PM
Rusty Craine is 74 and he's used this method since the 60s.
Sounds like your are "a crusty old fart who is set in his ways" after all. LOL
Mike
Too funny Mike......If 'Crusty Rusty' has been doing it since the 60s...sounds like he's an old fart set in his ways as well :biglaugh:
How is he doing? Does he still have that jeep?
Post by: Roy from Pa on September 06, 2018, 01:34:53 PM
Quote
Rusty Craine is 74 and he's used this method since the 60s.
Sounds like your are "a crusty old fart who is set in his ways" after all. LOL
Mike
LMAO
I'm 70 and have used it since 1971.
Ole fart here too:)
Try it Don, ya may be able to hit something with it..
:laughing: :thumbsup:
Post by: Don Stokes on September 06, 2018, 05:04:43 PM
Post by: Roy from Pa on September 07, 2018, 06:17:38 AM
LOL
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Post by: Trenton G. on September 07, 2018, 08:10:05 AM
Post by: Roy from Pa on September 07, 2018, 08:16:31 AM
:laughing:
:dunno:
Post by: Don Stokes on September 07, 2018, 10:08:08 AM
Post by: jonsimoneau on September 25, 2018, 03:15:27 PM
Post by: NotDylan on December 10, 2018, 05:55:19 PM
Post by: Orion on December 11, 2018, 11:19:44 AM
Post by: KSdan on December 11, 2018, 01:47:23 PM
Post by: wingnut on December 11, 2018, 02:02:12 PM
Mike
Post by: Orion on December 11, 2018, 02:11:03 PM
That being said, after my less than stellar shooting this past season, I broke out my Bear mag TD with the sliding sight in the window. Haven't shot a sight in 40 years. It seems to be working well also.
One way or another, the turkeys are going to be in for trouble this spring.
Post by: NotDylan on December 11, 2018, 02:15:15 PM
Post by: Roy from Pa on December 11, 2018, 02:37:11 PM
It came pre drilled for an adjustable sight.
I have a real neat adjustable sight that mounts right on it with a thumb screw..
Back in those days, there were two classes at field shoots.
Bare bow and Sights.
I'd say it was 50/50 between the two classes.
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Post by: KSdan on December 11, 2018, 08:36:46 PM
Dan in KS