Trad Gang
Main Boards => The Shooters FORM Board => Topic started by: The-Talon on September 30, 2018, 12:24:16 PM
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So I have been shooting instinctively for about 10 years now. I find when I start to get to about 20 yards the groupings start to open a bit. I have always stood very openly almost facing the target and I also grip my bow pretty firmly . I started trying out standing feet shoulder width apart and my body 90 degrees towards the target (the preached archery form) and i think I find it to be better as far as accuracy goes.
My problem is replicating this in the field when hunting, stumping or roving. How do you guys shoot and what's your preferred stance? Also what are your guys thoughts on gripping the bow? 1 finger? 2? A firm grip??
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I only worry about form from the waist up. What my feet are doing really doesn't matter much.
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That’s one for the Shooters Form board.
However , I too have been shooting instinctive for many years. My groups were
never very good. So I had tobtime out and relearn fundamentalof good form and BACK tension. This was new to me and yes- I ask the same question -how on earth
Can anybody possibly shoot waist up when your crouched in a semi crawl without alerting the deer that he need to stay still and smile “cheese”? I know it can be done but I have yet to face that challenge. Thanks
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Have you ever watched Terry Green's video he put out years ago of him shooting from all sorts of positions. I think Terry shoots instinctively(not sure).
I've shot instinctively since before I went to trad. Even in my last year with a mechanical "bow" I set it up for shooting off the shelf, changed cams for wheels to make the draw smoother and removed the sights. At that point I wondered why I was carrying that hunk of cold heavy metal and decided to get a recurve. I shoot with a very loose form but I try to keep my draw, anchor and release consistent. When I was shooting every day my accuracy was good out to about 30 yards, even though I generally didn't consider taking a 30 yard shot at an animal. Heck, where I hunted I rarely had the opportunity to take a 30 yard shot. More like 12 to 15 yards.
While you are learning to shoot instinctively every aspect of your stance and your draw is important. Once you have the basics down your upper body should stay consistent like MYoung suggests.
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I don't think I've seen it! Would love to though !
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I only worry about form from the waist up. What my feet are doing really doesn't matter much.
+1. If you stand so that your feet are perpendicular to the target without moving your upper body, your shoulders should be in good alignment with the target. This is the typical target stance, and is a fine way to shoot. But as you say, it’s not always easy or possible when in the field. So as MYoung says, put your feet wherever you can, and replicate the target stance from the waist up, by twisting your body at the waist until your shoulders are perpendicular to the target.
I grip the bow lightly with my thumb and forefinger, with the other fingers just touching the back of the handle. The weight of the bow is against the part of my hand between my lifeline and the base of my thumb, so my knuckles are at about a 45* angle with the bow handle. There are a hundred different ways to grip the bow, but general agreement among recurve shooters, if not longbow shooters, that you will shoot best with a light grip.
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I guess I am one of the rare ones,I choke the grip so that I cannot tighten my grip when I release the arrow and cause it to shoot left.I shoot longbows and am a hunter foremost.Shoot a few 3d targets but could care less if I never shoot another one.I shoot open stance,never seen a bobcat sneak up on a rabbit walking sideways,feel I get better depth perception with the open stance.Bottom line is do what works best for you.
Terry
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I have found that if I keep a light, 1 or 2 finger grip (other fingers curled into palm), I can tell quickly if I have any string torque... if I do, my bow will rotate away or towards my cant. ... I like a light grip and stance is not an issue.
Good luck, shoot straight and God bless,
Rodd
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I just came in from a two hour shooting session that included my hog target, stuffed bag course in the woods, and lots of stumps. I never thought about my feet one time. It's a non issue. Just stand there and shoot.
Why is a desired stance hard to replicate in the woods or hunting situation?
I grip with light to medium pressure, three finger tips on the back. Strong grips just induce torque.
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The video "Masters of the Barebow, Volume III". Rod Jenkins is one of the main players and he's an accomplished hunter and tournament archer. Regardless if the target is fur or foam, the goal is to hit the spot. The target doesn't determine what's a good shot and what isn't, you do. Col. Jimmy Blackmon is a heck of a shot, hunter, and has made his mark in tournaments...he's trained under Rod. Few people on earth have hunted and taken as many different animals in as many different places and terrain as Denny Sturgis Jr., and he's talked about how much his accuracy improved after Rod worked with him. Consistency is the key. To be consistently accurate you must have a consistent shot. Good form is about making it easier to make the exact same shot every time.
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I grip my bows pretty firmly. It works for me. It helps me be consistant from shot to shot. Doesn't matter what my feet are doing if you shoot from the waist up. Pay attention to the days when you are "on" and try to repeat that form every time. Not everyone will shoot the same way. The key is to make sure "you" are shooting the same way...….ymmv
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I here alot about good form but I like to think good alignment, good alignment good form.
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My form is still a work in progress but so far the two biggest factors for me have been making sure I am getting good back tension (which for me means getting full draw) and I do better if I shift my weight just slightly forward on my leading foot.
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I practice by going up s tree in my yard with my climber and shooting at many different angles. While my feet may move little, the upper body always gets into position relative to the target.
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Form is from the waist up. Proper form doesn't care about the stance. And thank God..... cuz if I had to stand a certain way, I would have never killed 80% of the animals I have.
Also this thread should be on the Shooters forum. So I'll move it... :campfire:
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Terry, do you still have the video of you shooting from all different positions that you posted years ago? If so, will you post it? I think it shows what can be done from many positions.
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I shoot about as natural as I can. In other words when I go for the shot just do what feels comfortable whatever position you are in. Works for me.
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Yes I do... let me see what I can find... also have several demonstrations in my shooting segment on The Bowhunters of Tradgang DVD.
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Good form is about making it easier to make the exact same shot every time.
Yep...from a myriad of positions!!!!
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I here alot about good form but I like to think good alignment, good alignment good form.
Yep...Proper Alignment i.e. my term 'The Magic T'....
There is a ton of information on the Shooters Forum about Proper Alignment and the Magic T..... and there is an overview thread at the top featured that has a lot of that information. Sort of a quick cliff notes on the subject.
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I'm more hunting archer than target archer, so my goal in practicing is to learn to hit my target from any position. I only practice by roving, and I deliberately make my shots difficult to see what happens when I do this or that. After a few years of practicing this way, I get bored shooting at the same target repeatedly. I carry a judo arrow in my quiver, and take a few shots on my way back to the house, which keeps my "eye" in tune. However, I missed a doe opening day when my arm hit the tree behind me on the draw... maybe tomorrow.
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I didn’t read all that’s written but feet at 90 degrees to the target is wrong for starters. Your back foot should be about 90, your front foot toe should be about by the ball of your foot so they are somewhat slightly staggered. To be clear imagine your on tile, your feet should not be both even on the line, if the rear foot in on the line the front foot goes back to be even w the ball of back foot. Now slightly roatate foot leaving heel in place but pointing towards target. This is an open stance.
Now there’s no magic imo in an instinctive stance. It’s the same stance I show compound shooters as well as trad guys.
Next thing, you say firm grip. “Firm” is relative but if you squeeze the handle you may torque it. If you torque grip problems will show themselves worse as you gain distance.
Instinctive or not good repeatability in form leads to good shooting. As you improve you can practice out of perfect position shots and yet still retaining your form and repeatability
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Too add if your feet are 90 degrees and you shoot open as you said you’re twisting and out of alignment
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Can't help myself, but for something referred to as an "instinctive method", it never ceases to amaze me how much instruction on stance, grip, foot placement, bow angle etc..., etc..., etc... is apparently necessary in order to shoot a bow well that way.
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Can't help myself, but for something referred to as an "instinctive method", it never ceases to amaze me how much instruction on stance, grip, foot placement, bow angle etc..., etc..., etc... is apparently necessary in order to shoot a bow well that way.
Instinctive is a way of aiming not shooting. Even trick shooters started w good consistant form. As a hunter you need to practice non perfect shots but should start put w repeatable good form
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Still can't help myself, there have been countless posts by instinctive archers here that there is in fact no aiming when they shoot.
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Can't help myself, but for something referred to as an "instinctive method", it never ceases to amaze me how much instruction on stance, grip, foot placement, bow angle etc..., etc..., etc... is apparently necessary in order to shoot a bow well that way.
Since the date traditional archery originated, which gets pushed back every few years, and now is estimated to be about 50,000 years ago, people have developed many effective ways of shooting the bow. Hunters, for maybe 30,000 years before the invention of agriculture, had very effective ways of shooting the bow, which are now lost to us. We know they were effective, because we are still here. The Mongol warriors under Gengis Khan had a very effective way of shooting the bow from horseback, which made them the scourge of Eastern Europe. Japanese medieval samurai had a very effective way of shooting the bow, which I don’t know much about. English and Welsh bowmen had a very effective way of shooting the bow, which made them victorious over much greater numbers of mounted knights. American Indians had a very effective way of shooting the bow, which enabled them to live off buffalo shot from horseback. In modern times, many of our forebears, such as Will and Maurice Thompson, Will Compton, Howard Hill, Fred Asbell, and Rick Welch never had a day of formal instruction in their lives, and did quite well for themselves. All of their styles of shooting the bow were different.
So if you would like to develop your own style, you’re in good company.
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The only consideration I give to my feet when shooting is to make sure I am not wobbly and off balance. After that it all happens from the waist up.
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Too add if your feet are 90 degrees and you shoot open as you said you’re twisting and out of alignment
Not if your form is properly aligned.....again, good form doesn't know stance...
I need to see if I can get that video up.,,,,
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Still can't help myself, there have been countless posts by instinctive archers here that there is in fact no aiming when they shoot.
Yep...subconscious aiming.
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Too add if your feet are 90 degrees and you shoot open as you said you’re twisting and out of alignment
Not if your form is properly aligned.....again, good form doesn't know stance...
I need to see if I can get that video up.,,,,
I think you’re mistaking what I’m saying. Your feet may not matter down the road. We can twist and still be in alignment. We should not start out there.
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These, Terry?
http://www.tradgang.com/tgsmf/index.php?topic=121915.0
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The worst thing a new archer can do is think that 'instinctive' means they don't have to have any kind of shooting routine. Beginning archers first need to work on proper form that allows repeatability and accuracy, and after that it's shoot, shoot, shoot until no conscious thought goes into the shot; your mind and your body have learned how to shoot accurately and will perform the act spontaneously. That's what we call instinct in archery. My opinion, anyhow.
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The worst thing a new archer can do is think that 'instinctive' means they don't have to have any kind of shooting routine. Beginning archers first need to work on proper form that allows repeatability and accuracy, and after that it's shoot, shoot, shoot until no conscious thought goes into the shot; your mind and your body have learned how to shoot accurately and will perform the act spontaneously. That's what we call instinct in archery. My opinion, anyhow.
This is perhaps more well put but is pretty much what I’m saying
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The worst thing a new archer can do is think that 'instinctive' means they don't have to have any kind of shooting routine. Beginning archers first need to work on proper form that allows repeatability and accuracy, and after that it's shoot, shoot, shoot until no conscious thought goes into the shot; your mind and your body have learned how to shoot accurately and will perform the act spontaneously. That's what we call instinct in archery. My opinion, anyhow.
I agree with everything that has been said above except for the word “proper.” Proper to me indicates that there is an orthodox style of shooting that everyone should learn. In fact, there IS an orthodox style of shooting that a lot of people learn, and for most people it is probably a good thing. However, what was orthodox 20 years ago is not orthodox now, and probably won’t be 20 years from now (examples include fingertip vs. deep hook string grip, locked vs. unlocked knees, square vs. open stance, etc.). Aside from this, there are many unorthodox styles of shooting that have been used successfully by many, for example, the dead release. Also, as I pointed out in my earlier post, many of the most highly respected traditional archers were self-taught. There are probably a lot more than I listed, but I only listed the ones I know were self taught. I would say the one thing all great archers have in common is higher than average self-discipline, which includes mastering a technique, whether learned from someone else or self-taught, that allows them to be consistent to a much greater degree than the rest of us.
Archery has been a part of humanity for so long that it has become an innate part of our consciousness, more like running than flying an airplane. Of course, our modern minds are so cluttered with modern junk that it takes some digging to get back to the innate part.
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Instinctive is an aiming style...and not form. Not sure why some folks can't seem to get that. Proper form is required for ANY aiming style....yet form can be carried to a MYRIAD of shooting positions. Form and aiming are not the same, so you can't 'lump' them as one.
Yes, everyone should have a 'back yard' shot with dead on form...but for the third time, proper 'dead on form' doesn't know or care where the feet are. Proper alignment 'aka' Form, is again, from the waste up.
To say you MUST stand a certain way to make a shot every single time is quite comical to many a bowhunter...and 100% not true. Most of us don't want to be a one trick pony.
:campfire:
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Does anyone know if the videos on the link Roy posted worked? I think we are going to have to reformat those.
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They work for me, Terry..
http://www.tradgang.com/videos/tg/terry-2.wmv
http://tradgang.com/videos/terry11.wmv
http://www.tradgang.com/videos/tg/tgshot91.wmv
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Howard Hill's favorite shooting position when shooting at game. (https://i.imgur.com/kqRaObo.jpg)
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I prefer standing sideways tried open stance does not work for me. Besides standing sideways gets the bow lined up better to my face and getting a better anchor point.
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http://www.tradgang.com/tgsmf/index.php?topic=127230.0 (http://www.tradgang.com/tgsmf/index.php?topic=127230.0)
you can also search for the thread 'cant never could' :)
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I have shot 49 deer to date, not as many as some, but we only have a one deer tag a year in this corner of the state. I cannot think of a single time, being a ground hunter, that I took an identical shot at a deer. there always seems that something was different in combinations of shot timing, footing, obstacles, ducking low, standing high, shooting with the bow almost flat, to a couple with reverse cants to clear the dirt on a hill side or once when I was laying on my back. Target stance would be a rare condition for me, not sure I can do it. When I tried years and years ago, I messed up every time with my three pin bow sighted 42 pound Black Widow target bow, a very difficult thing to pull off for a spot stalk hunter.