Trad Gang
Main Boards => The Shooters FORM Board => Topic started by: the rifleman on November 27, 2018, 12:01:22 PM
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I've tried the following and have really given each one an honest try, from months to years w results as listed:
Split finger instinctive--- just look at the target--- this worked ok sometimes and not ok others. I killed some deer and missed some deer. I never could say why i hit or why i missed after several years.
3 under gap--- worked ok, but i couldn't deal w large gaps and still shot high. I got my form out of whack trying to chase tight gaps. Thanks Arne for getting my form back on track.
Extra long arrows 34" and even home cobbled 35". Cumbersome to tote and heavy for my set ups.
Fixed crawl--- worked great in the deer woods this year, BUT--- with my longbow it seemed that if i did anything wrong in my shot cycle the result was magnified. Also not allowed at most 3d shoots i attend.
High nocking point--- did lower point on a bit, but since i shoot bows in low 40# range i was worried about hunting with an arrow that wasn't well tuned.
High anchor--- cut gaps in half, but wasn't condusive to maintaining solid form for me.
After watching Jimmy Blackmon's video on aiming references at the riser i put a small spot of tape on the riser and adjusted to get a 18 yd point on. I have large gaps even w 3 under my gap at this distance was 23". The spot on the riser lined right up for me and tool care of elevation. As 3d shoots dont allow marks on the riser, but do allow sideplates 1" above the arrow i extended my sideplate and it is working great w my normal index finger near my mouth anchor. At this point it seems to be working well for me, so i thought I'd pass it on if others are struggling.
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What are you focusing on as you’re aiming? Does your focus shift back and forth between the top of the sideplate and the target, or do you keep your focus on the target, or keep it on the sideplate?
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Right now i am a bit more concious of the sideplate, but am trying to be sure my focus, once height is set is on the center of the target. My hope is that, if i finally stick to this, i will eventually not need to reference the sideplate at all, but we'll see.
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I’ve found that raising the nocking point to lower the POI only works if you’re shooting instinctively. The higher nocking point causes the nock end of the arrow to be higher than it was before, which means that the arrow ought to impact lower if you keep your bow hand in the same place, which you probably will if you’re shooting instinctively. However, if you’re using gap, you will see that the point of the arrow is lower than it “should” be, and will raise it up to whatever your gap was, thereby negating the effect of raising the nock point (other than screwing up your tune, as you said, which might lower your POI slightly, but that’s not the way you want to do it).
I just tried your method. I’m finding it more difficult to see the strike plate than the arrow point, but like you, I sure would like to have a reference I could just use point on, and have the same problems as you do with the fixed crawl. Maybe as you say, it will come with practice.
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McDave, i added a piece of light colored Velcro just above my beavertail sideplate. The light color shows up very well. Hopefully the photo will help. Not pretty, but is seems to help me. Hope it helps you too.
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Yes, it does help, because my strike plate looks about the same as yours, except for the light colored Velcro one you added on top. I was wondering how you aimed off the top of your strike plate, which is the same as mine, because it’s not high enough to get me the gap I need. I just hope you’re right about it being okay in a 3D match. I think I might try a long piece of light Velcro, instead of two pieces, as it would be less obvious.
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No sighting device of any kind may be used. There shall be no markings on the bow or bowstring (intentional or accidental) that could be construed as sighting marks. No type of draw check will be allowed. All arrows must be the same length and weight. No stabilizers, counterbalances, or weights of any kind may be attached or built into the bow, except a quiver clearly designed to hold arrows. Arrows shall be shot off the hand or shelf of the riser only. An arrow side plate (if used) may only extend one (1) inch above the arrow. No soft materials that will assist or affect the paradox of the arrow may be used to build up the shelf or strike plate of the riser. Archers may use a hard material on the shelf or on the side of the riser under a hair or leather strip that does not exceed 1/8” thickness.
Here's some of the ibo rules pertaining to longbow class. Any light colored sideplate should give you what you'll need. Mine measures right at 1" above the arrow. I see all kinds of set ups at these shoots including bows with highly contrasting rings on the riser. I feel my set up meets the spirit of the rules, but I'd probably be safer with a one piece sideplate--- just like the beavertail for tune. Let me know how it works for you.
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You know, if you can lick the problem of aiming off the strike plate this strikes me as a better solution than the fixed crawl, because you avoid having to have your hand separated from the nock, and also a better solution than a high anchor, which creates problems with back tension. You just anchor and shoot using the best anchor and string grip you can find, and have another aiming reference.
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I agree. I have been looking for one aiming system that won't require me to do different things whether hunting or 3d. Im a believer in practicing my 3d shots the same way i will take them in the deer woods. Ive been my own worst enemy changing things... I am hopeful that this will be my answer. Keep me posted on your progress.
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This gives me approx 15 yards point on from the top of the strike plate. I’m sure small gaps at 20 and 30. Because of the blond wood, the black strike plate material shows up nicely. Looks like it is more than 1”, as yours did to me, but the ruler doesn’t lie. I’ll keep working on this mañana.
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Perfect! I do like the idea of something static, unlike different arrow lengths.
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I just saw a great northern bow add on the back of trad bowhunter. Their strike plates look like the edge would show up well on a darker bow.
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Yes, it looks like the Great Northern plate would work, and from the drawing it appears to be about the right height without having to customize it. In the event you were questioned in a 3D tournament, it would be nice to be using an off the shelf product. It isn't available separately on their website, but maybe they would sell you one anyway. If not, Tandy has leather and edge paint so you could make your own, if you wanted to.
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I spent a little more time with the set up today. Once my form was set a quick rerference to the sideplate confirmed my height and then put all of my focus on the x ring. It is working well and seems to be ingraining the elevation pretty quickly.
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Yes, I’m having the same experience. The strike plate provides a reference that I didn't have before, and is much easier to use than the point of the arrow when there is a large gap. But like the point of the arrow, I place it where I think it should be, and then more or less forget about it as I focus on the spot. I find that I’m never very far off he mark unless I make some mistake like plucking or whatever.
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John, you seem to be doing a lot of side thinking about how to get around aiming aids. You may be a good candidate for the refined explanation of Howard Hill's aiming technique as explained by Jerry Hill. $30 for a small book may seem like a lot, but as I have seen with others that had aiming issues, it can be money well spent. an aiming system that works for groups and the more difficult hunting shots. I have been doing it for years, it gets automatic to the point that it seems almost instinctive, but my son went from soft ball groups at 20 yards to hard tight groups. Even my 66 year old wife, worked it out in a few shooting sessions to a point where she packs them without giving it a second thought. She went from chewing my butt for spending $30 on something that i already knew to saying that it seems that she has always been shooting like that, of course the difference is from shooting cantaloup size groups at 15 yards to shooting softball groups at over 20 yards.
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Thanks Lawrence. It sounds like the book worked well for your family. What is the title? Ive read Howard Hills section on aiming in other posts, but didn't really figure how to apply it.
Im my own worst enemy as I'll shoot for hours at a time trying to push through issues, i tire and my form suffers. I know i need to focus on fewer, but higher quality shots.
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Pavan sent you a PM. Thanks again! John
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As far as complying with tournament rules, the spirit of rules for any given class are usually invented and intended to level the playing field for all shooters in that class. If shooter 'A' follows the class rules (in this case no use of sighting aids) but shooter 'B' looks for ways to circumvent them without detection, doesn't that sort of rig the competition in favor of shooter B and defeat the purpose of having 'fair play' rules in the first place? Just sayin'...
What you’re saying is true to the extent that if shooter A figures out a way to aim that is more effective than using the point of the arrow, and doesn’t violate the rules in doing so, then he has an advantage. However, I disagree that he is defeating the purpose of the rules, if he is obeying the rules. The rules can’t very well dictate what you do with your eyes while you are shooting, and if you use your eyes more effectively than the next guy, then that’s life, I guess. In this case, John isn’t keeping this idea to himself. He’s putting it out there for all to see, and use if they want to. So I don’t see how this can be considered an unfair advantage if anyone, me for example, is afforded the same opportunity to use the idea as John is. If John or me or anyone else breaks the rules, they should be called on it; if not, either other people can use it too or they can change the rules.
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IMO, even technically obeying rules can still result in the defeat of their purpose The obvious rule objective is to NOT use ANY sighting aids, and short rule narratives can't be expected to cover every possible means of preventing discovery and application of loopholes if someone tries hard enough. intended to do?
I don’t think this is a correct interpretation of the rules. The arrow point can always be used as a sighting aid under the rules, and three under is allowed under the rules, knowing that it facilitates the use of the point as a sighting aid. Specific sighting aids have been prohibited under the rules, such as string walking, and it is incumbent on us to respect the rules of whatever tournament we decide to enter. But if a specific sighting aid has not been contemplated by the rules, we should feel free to use it unless and until it is prohibited.
Furthermore, there is nothing wrong with my doing whatever I can to avoid being called on a rules violation. It would ruin my day if anyone ever called me on a rules violation, whether I prevailed or not. So if I can avoid anyone raising the question by using a stock strike plate instead of something I made myself, then I’ll do it. I’m not out to flaunt the rules. I’m just out to win....fairly.
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The OP was reffing to hunting shots. Many of these mechanical sighting tricks get a bit cumbersome in many hunting situations. Personally, I think the crawl or string walking should include open sights in a separate category at 3d shoots, perhaps minus the peep sight. If it is going to get all static and mechanical anyway, why not have bow sights for static 3d target shooting?
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McDave is spot on. Following the rules is following the rules, period. I'd like to see how tsps version would go over at the Lancaster classic or any other competition. I don't know anyone competing to win that doesn't aim. Sorry to break it to you tsp, but the winners all aim to win and yep, that means gapping off the arrow, gapping at the bow, or utilizing some other visual reference to get their arrow on target.
Any time I compete i do whatever it takes within the rules to win. Finding what works for me and moving my shooting to the next level is my goal. If you do less, don't kid yourself, you're not competing.
Tsp--- the point of this thread was to share a technique that can be utilized, as McDave said, with stock equipment that meets the parameters of the rules. If you're not interested, there are a few thousand other posts.
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I cleaned up this thread a little.
Please keep it that way.
Roy
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Thank you sir.
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:thumbsup:
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Last three shots of the morning. The bareshaft shows that the bow likes the lower nock height. The sideplate reference seems to be ingraining the sight picture and I'm hoping it will help me find, as Pavan said a more fluid, less mechanical shot sequence.
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I shot at the club quite a while this morning using your method. I trimmed the strike plate until I was getting a 20 yard point on with the top of the strike plate. This put the top of the strike plate at 5/8” above the top of the arrow. This will vary among shooters, depending on anchor, facial structure, etc. I thought at first I would have to hold the bow dead vertical, but found that slight cants of 0-10 degrees really didn’t affect the POI that much (I’m sure they would if you were shooting Vegas, but not enough to throw me out of the 10 ring at 20-25 yards).
I like this method better than any other method I’ve tried for adjusting the POI using gap. The beauty of it is that I can switch back and forth between using it and using my old method without changing anything. So if I get into a situation where low light or something makes it difficult to use the strike plate, I can shoot the same shot with the same setup instinctively or by gapping off the point simply by ignoring the strike plate. My normal point on is 45 yards, so shooting from 40 yards on out, I just ignore the strike plate and use the point of the arrow to gap. This gives me two reliable point on distances that I can choose from without changing anything.
I had to get used to two things. First, my bows are all set up so the arrow goes where i’m looking, and the side plate is a little to the right of that, so I just have to make sure I’m focused on the target and the arrow is lined up with the target, with the side plate in my out of focus peripheral vision a little to the right of my flight path. Second, when I’m making elevation adjustments using the strike plate, they seem backwards to me; they really aren’t, of course, but I had to get used to the fact that when you’re looking through a lower point on the side plate, that means you’re going to hit higher, and vice versa. Probably just my own mind playing tricks on me.
I definitely would prefer this method for hunting. If I can make any mistakes, you can depend on it that I will when I’m trying to focus on a live animal instead of a target. For example, the first time I drew down on a deer after I switched from split to three under, I shot over the back of the deer because I instinctively grabbed the string split. With this method, the only mistake I could make is to do something different than I’m used to. If I forget to gap off the strike plate, it’s because I’m shooting instinctively or gapping off the point, which should at least give me the same accuracy I had before, pitiful though it may be.
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I had a chance to use this method out of my deer stand yesterday and it put me on target very well. I shot at some spots in the grass along the dam of our pond at last light and was amazed at how by just looking at the spot the arrow would be there. I have not been at this very long, but it is already getting to be second nature to quickly reference my elevation and then focus all attention on the spot I want to hit. As I hunt with a 56" PIKA it is quite a bit nicer to not have 34" arrows jutting out of my bow quiver.
I should also mention that in addition to Jimmy Blackmon's video Reddoge's description and drawing of gapping at the bow was helpful in moving me in this direction.
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Just watched Jimmy Blackmons video you suggested.
That is slick as heck.
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Thanks Roy. Some risers have contrasting laminations tha you can reference also. I think this will transition me more toward an " instinctive" shot process--- just burn a hole in the target. I like the idea of not referencing the tip of the arrow.
Hope it works for you.
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Just remember, guys, the gaps just give you a reference to get you in the ballpark. I started with them years ago because I got tired of over and undershooting 3-d targets. I draw and look at the gap to get me in the ballpark then concentrate on what I want to hit. When it looks good, off it goes.
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John, you seem to be doing a lot of side thinking about how to get around aiming aids. You may be a good candidate for the refined explanation of Howard Hill's aiming technique as explained by Jerry Hill. $30 for a small book may seem like a lot, but as I have seen with others that had aiming issues, it can be money well spent. an aiming system that works for groups and the more difficult hunting shots. I have been doing it for years, it gets automatic to the point that it seems almost instinctive, but my son went from soft ball groups at 20 yards to hard tight groups. Even my 66 year old wife, worked it out in a few shooting sessions to a point where she packs them without giving it a second thought. She went from chewing my butt for spending $30 on something that i already knew to saying that it seems that she has always been shooting like that, of course the difference is from shooting cantaloup size groups at 15 yards to shooting softball groups at over 20 yards.
Do you have a title for the book?
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Title: Howard Hill's Method of shooting the Bow and Arrow. On amazon for $30. Let me be perfectly blunt. Like my wife pointed out, I have been preaching pretty much the exact same information to beginners for years. What is new in this is Jerry's protocol on how to make it work. He does not give a detailed development of the form, but he does point out that the bow hand comes up slightly ahead of the drawing hand, like Schulz does, and comes down a bit at the end of the draw. For many that downward slide at the end of the draw, as can be seen in any Howard Hill film, is less distinct, but it is easier for the eye to handle a slight subtractive position change than a totally additive movement from the hip up to the stopping point. Yes, it is a swing/spread draw, it can be done with any bow and it is more ergonomic for the shoulders if done properly. What I do is make newbies watch the John Schulz film, then go out and shoot super slow motion with very light bows until the form is grooved in. "Howard would actually have us count, one, two, three, four, five , shoot." That high speed stuff is for a ways down the road, most people do not take the time to work out the finite details and want to get to a fast and furious tempo, way to quick. In the film of Jerry, he shows a considerable holding time on the still shots. For newbies that are doing their best to kill my garage when we back up to 15 yards, I put a large red ball on the ground about where the arrow crosses the arrow shelf, when they tell me the ball is in the wrong spot and they are hitting the target, i kick the ball away and tell them to make their own spot without looking directly at that spot. In almost every case with longbow shooters this will turn into an automatic response or 'conditioned' instinct at shots under 30 yards. However, some people like to squeeze it at full draw with a longer aim for static shooting, I say there are certainly advantages to be able to shoot fast, but if that is not your thing, go ahead and squeeze it at full draw. Remember, this is not point of aim, it is selecting a secondary 'imaginary' aiming spot that is only viewed in peripheral vision, while direct focus is only at the exact spot you want your arrow to hit. if you miss by a foot, move that secondary spot by visual ratio that same degree that you missed, but never look at anything but the center of the center where you want your arrow to go. you can train your eyes by fixing your focus on an exact spot and then pointing an arrow, without drawing the bowstring, at various other objects, until you get good at it. That will take less than an hour of total time of practice for most people. Your eyes will see two arrows indirectly, one for the left eye and one for the right eye, the arrow to the left and probably up a little, is the right eye if you are fake drawing right handed. The converse if you are left handed. This can be done very fast and in process after some time, but do not rush it. Once your eyes are trained to use your secondary vision in this manner, it will seem to be the most natural thing. For those that claim to not see two arrows when practicing this, have not done it and are doing a bit of leg pulling.
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Just watched the video. I know what I will be doing today! Thanks for posting this. Enjoyed reading it.
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John, I've been using this method for decades now. Initially, I called it a "tape sight" because I would stick a piece of medical tape on the back of my riser and draw lines on it for different yardages. It evolved into just drawing a line with white out like the video and now I call it a "gap sight". The 3-D shoots that I have attended have not been super-intense about this and have said that if it's not an attached sight, it's fine. I've tried a lot of different aiming methods but this one for me has been the most consistent and every big game animal I have taken with a trad bow (9 of 'em), has been with this method. I think the single "sight" using a strike plate would be ideal for hunting and 3-D.
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Thanks Doug! That says a lot about it if it has worked well for you for decades. I am finding that it is quickly becoming ingrained to the point where I use it to set my height within the first second of drawing the bow and then transfer all of my focus to the spot that I want to hit. The last two shots out of the tree have been leaves at 20 yards and I've nailed them. I did up my arrow weight just a bit and it has tightened up the sideplate gaps.
I see this leading to a more instinctive style for me after much more practice.
I had previously done all kinds of crazy things to get a close point on including some home cobbled 35" arrows---my buddies laughed until the match started---the extra long arrows let me put the point on the 3d animal from 15-25 yards, but I soon found they were a pain to tote in the deer woods.