Trad Gang
Main Boards => The Shooters FORM Board => Topic started by: Brent S on April 22, 2019, 09:01:56 PM
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I need some help, badly. I’ll start by saying I work out regularly and I’m fairly strong. I bench press damn near 300 lbs and overhead press 200 lbs but I can’t hold a 40 lb bow steady to save my life and I’ve been shooting for around 10 years now. My bow arm shakes like crazy and always has (it’s amplified 10x when I shoot in front of others). I can draw and shoot 70# bows but I just can’t seem to hold any traditional bow (compounds aren’t a problem at all) for any length of time without the shakes. Am I just screwed? Or are there things to do to fix it? I’ve been taking my 60# longbow and drawing it to full draw and holding as long as possible over and over. I even add workout bands to increase the weight but it hasn’t seemed to help. Any other suggestions? I’m desperate! :banghead:
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You aren't learning from your weight lifting. When you press the weight, what do you do?? Don't you set the bones into line to hold the weight? You use muscle to get the bones levered into position, but then MOST of the weight is held with your bones. Do the same thing in archery. Move the bones into alignment and you will be able to hold all day (or nearly) and have little shake (if any).
Archery is a movement sport, not a strength sport. The best thing you could do is to find a coach to work with -- you used one for weight lifting at least initially, I bet.
Arne
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True, I did have a weigh lifting coach. Any recommendations for a coach in Tennessee or Kentucky?
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Oh and thanks for the reply. It’s greatly appreciated.
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Moebow is, of course, right concerning the alignment issues, however, you touched on another problem when you wrote, “…(it’s amplified 10x when I shoot in front of others)…” It appears you also are dealing with some performance anxiety when shooting your recurve. That can cause as much (or even more) shaking as the alignment issue.
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I agree. I knew I had some sort of "performance anxiety" that I can't seem to get rid of.
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1) Listen to Moebow. If anyone knows, he does. Moe has plenty of excellent videos on You Tube that explain in detail what you need to know.
2) 70# on a wheel bow equates to around 15# at full draw depending on % let-off, and you also have a 'wall' on a wheel bow. Nothing of the sort on a trad bow. 40# at full draw is 40#...or more, depending on draw length over 28" for most trad bows.
3) Lifting muscles are not the same as the stabilizer muscles required to hold a bow at full draw. Nor is strength. When you are shaking, your mind is screaming at you to "release!" and in turn you will develop a plethora of bad habits that will be difficult to fix down the line. You obviously have not yet developed a firm, solid anchor point. Couple this with the hurry-up- and-fling mentality, and no wonder there is performance anxiety!
My advice would be to get a bow with replaceable limbs, at least 64" (more is better in this instance) in the 25-30# range. There are tons of them out there, quite inexpensive. This will allow you to develop a solid anchor point and hold full draw without shaking, in turn strengthening both your back (rhomboid) and stabilizer muscles, and your confidence as well. While you are working this exercise, also do blank bale shooting at close range (5-10yds) with no target so you eliminate that from the equation. A few weeks of daily workouts will show dramatic improvement, and when you are ready, you should be able to step up a notch to a heavier bolt-on limb, say 30-40#. As confidence, accuracy and strength increase, you can back up to 15-20 yards and the pieces will all start fitting.
Remember, FORM FIRST. If you can't draw and hold WITHOUT SHAKING for 15 seconds, your bow is too heavy. All you will develop is bad form and you will be a poor hunter who will decide trad hunting is not for you. Nothing could be further from the truth.
Feel free to PM me if you have more questions. I've been through all that and learned the hard way.
Lastly, many people fighting target panic have recommended Joel Turner's Iron Mind course. I have no affiliation and no feedback as I've never used it, but others rave about it.
Good luck, and again, feel free to contact me.
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Thanks Captain Kirk. I have watched all of Arne's videos dozens of times and thought I was getting good alignment. And even though I have strength in some areas maybe I am over bowed with even a 40# bow. I didn't mean I was drawing 70# compounds, I've shot many 70# recurves, I just can't hold without shaking. I didn't think the compound letoff was that dramatic but great point. I just bought the 40# bow last week thinking I could use it for form work but I still shake. I do think maybe buying a recurve with replaceable limbs and starting very low could be beneficial.
I really appreciate the input!
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Long story short; I injured myself by starting out with a 55# recurve when coming back to trad by shooting for hours every day. Shoulder, tennis elbow and fingertip numbness issues. After a layoff for a few months I got back into it shooting my old 35# glass bow from my youth, Imagine my surprise to find out I could hold full draw until the cows came home and as a result, my groups began shrinking drastically.
Sometimes we are our own worst enemy.
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Yes sir, great point. Guess I need to start selling off some bows and looking for one with replaceable limbs.
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Yes sir, great point. Guess I need to start selling off some bows and looking for one with replaceable limbs.
Not necessarily. Once you work your way up to the 40+ pound range, you may find those heavier bows easy to manage, just like working up to a higher weight range when lifting. It's a different set of muscles you are training, but at your age, you should be able to easily work back up to a 50# bow if that's your desire (I'm fine shooting AND hunting with 45# and under bows). All depends on your physical condition and bone/muscle structure.
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...
My advice would be to get a bow with replaceable limbs, at least 64" (more is better in this instance) in the 25-30# range. There are tons of them out there, quite inexpensive. This will allow you to develop a solid anchor point and hold full draw without shaking, in turn strengthening both your back (rhomboid) and stabilizer muscles, and your confidence as well. While you are working this exercise, also do blank bale shooting at close range (5-10yds) with no target so you eliminate that from the equation. A few weeks of daily workouts will show dramatic improvement, and when you are ready, you should be able to step up a notch to a heavier bolt-on limb, say 30-40#. As confidence, accuracy and strength increase, you can back up to 15-20 yards and the pieces will all start fitting.
Remember, FORM FIRST. ...
I love this post, great advice from Captain Kirk!
After having been an archer for over 10 years, I still regularly go back to shoot a few yards away from the target, and pay attention to all the small things making up my form.
Focus on the form and on the breathing.
I think I will keep it a part of my training for as long as I'm an archer.
Max
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Yes sir. It’s all I’ve done the last few days with a 30# bow.
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Yes sir. It’s all I’ve done the last few days with a 30# bow.
How's it working out for you, Brent?
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Seems to be working out well. I’ve found a lot of inconsistencies. Right now I’m just concentrating on being consistent with every shot. Almost All of my shooting has been at around 5 yards. The shaking is definitely some sort of target panic because I haven’t noticed it at all until I tried to walk back to 20 yards last night. At 20, my bow arm started to shake so I walked back up to 5 and did more form work.
I really appreciate all the input from you guys. I just hope I can overcome the TP.
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Seems to be working out well. I’ve found a lot of inconsistencies. Right now I’m just concentrating on being consistent with every shot. Almost All of my shooting has been at around 5 yards. The shaking is definitely some sort of target panic because I haven’t noticed it at all until I tried to walk back to 20 yards last night. At 20, my bow arm started to shake so I walked back up to 5 and did more form work.
I really appreciate all the input from you guys. I just hope I can overcome the TP.
Some (but not all) forms of TP arise from fear of blowing a shot, and from fear of someone watching you blow a shot.
This can be dealt with in several ways; by repetition at close range (as previously mentioned) using a blank bale (if you're not aiming a a particular spot, how can you 'miss'?) and having an audience. If you shoot an arrow, then try to hit that arrow with your subsequent shots, you will find there is way less self-imposed pressure on your mind than aiming for a bullseye and missing...at least for me. Once you start blowing nocks off the arrows, time to back up another 5 yards and start over. Meanwhile, you are building strength in your rhomboids and stabilizer muscles and locking in a repeatable form (muscle memory). Keep this up until you reach 15 yards or so, then begin integrating a target bullseye (paper plate, etc) as your TP will allow (or not!) Shooting with friends or family is a very non-competitive way of introducing observers to the game, although I don't find that necessary unless you are planning on shooting in competition. Most hunting is done alone without anyone watching your hit or miss anyway.
Don't rush it. If you are shooting well at 5 yards without TP symptoms, continue to do so as you built your muscles and dial in your form. I think a jump from 5 to 20 yards is too much too soon. Increase your distance in 5-yard increments; you will be much happier.
Remember, also, that most trad kills are made in the 10-15 yard range. If you can consistently kill a paper plate at 15 yards, every time, a 20 yard shot is just extra icing on the cake.
A couple questions for you:
1) do you shoot right or left handed?
2) are you right or left eye dominant?
3) are you shooting instinctive, gapping, or with sight pin(s)?
4) split finger or 3 under?
5) tab or glove?
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That’s really great info!! Thanks again Captain Kirk.
I shoot right handed and Im right eye dominant. And trying to completely reconstruct my shot I just switched from split finger with a glove to 3 under with a tab. I’ve always shot “instinctively” but been trying to work on an aiming method. I’ve tried gapping but I find it much easier for me to just look at the spot i want to hit and concentrate on my form. Trying to gap seems to take up too much of my concentration and i pluck the sting badly.
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And by the sound of it, I probably need to skip the Tennessee Classic next weekend, huh? I'll probably still go and take pictures or something but I probably shouldn't shoot it.
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And by the sound of it, I probably need to skip the Tennessee Classic next weekend, huh? I'll probably still go and take pictures or something but I probably shouldn't shoot it.
Honestly, (my opinion only, take it for what it's worth) I would skip shooting at this stage in any event that might ramp up your TP. But go, heck yeah! Watching and observing others' shooting styles, and how they perform under pressure might be a real eye-opener.
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Being right handed and right eye dominant is a huge plus (ask me how I know) as you are not fighting yourself. Gapping works; but realistically, you are shackling yourself to a different type of sighting system. Gapping works very, very well in tournament/3D settings where the distances are known. I found it unnerving in the woods as distances with trees, bushes, and other distractions in the way mess with my head. I once missed a sure thing on a big doe broadside at 20 yards...trimmed the hair off her belly...but after the shot, when I paced off the distance, found it closer to 35 yards! No wonder it was a low shot. No more gapping after that!
Most modern shooters agree 3 under is a better system, but I'm old school and prefer to live with the limitations of split, instinctive. In the end, it's up to the hunter/archer to find whatever system works best for him/her. There is no 'right' way. It's what works best for you as an individual.
I would highly recommend watching "The Push" and see if a fixed crawl would help you, since you already shoot 3 under.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1E1vKkSSoNs
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I've watched that video several times. It's great, but drawing without touching the knock really gives me the shakes. For whatever reason, it terrifies me. Even shooting 3 under was extremely difficult at first because I felt the arrow was going to pop off the string if I wasn't holding it with a split finger hold.
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I've watched that video several times. It's great, but drawing without touching the knock really gives me the shakes. For whatever reason, it terrifies me. Even shooting 3 under was extremely difficult at first because I felt the arrow was going to pop off the string if I wasn't holding it with a split finger hold.
LOL...I know what you mean. I tried shooting 3 under a few times. The last time I tried it, the arrow DID pop off the string and I got a partial dry fire(no damage, thank goodness!) Coincidentally, that was the last time I ever shot 3 under. If split was good enough for Fred Bear, who am I to argue?
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Seems to be working out well. ...
I really appreciate all the input from you guys. I just hope I can overcome the TP.
Good luck, Brent! :thumbsup:
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Thank you very much!
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Different muscle groups for different tasks is all I can say. Funny thing I see guys on these sites pulling bows at 55# having a wimpy looking physique. Well I'll tell ya I use to work Construction at 175# keeping up with just about any man weighing 220 plus and had the stamina of dam near any man in any group of individuals. But when it comes to drawing a bow its a whole different story. Building bows is very humbling and archery as well.
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That makes sense. And humbling to say the least. Lol. Today, just because I was bored with shooting the 30# bow, I got out the Blacktail Elite which is 55# @ 28” (Im guessing 59-60# at my 40” draw, and I shoot it SOOO much better than the 30# bow even though I do have some shake at full draw. Do you guys think that may be because the heavier pull makes for a cleaner release? It’s the only thing I could think of.
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My 30” draw. Not 40”. Haha
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My 30” draw. Not 40”. Haha
Good, good.
For a moment, that's what I feared:
[ You are not allowed to view attachments ]
Please tell me where you hunt, so I can stay away from there :laughing:
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Hahahahaha!!!
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That makes sense. And humbling to say the least. Lol. Today, just because I was bored with shooting the 30# bow, I got out the Blacktail Elite which is 55# @ 28” (Im guessing 59-60# at my 40” draw, and I shoot it SOOO much better than the 30# bow even though I do have some shake at full draw. Do you guys think that may be because the heavier pull makes for a cleaner release? It’s the only thing I could think of.
You shoot it better because your arrow has a flat trajectory rather than an extreme arch, and more arrow speed as well.
Keep working that 30 pounder. It won't hurt to start working your 55 into your daily routine for a half-dozen arrows or so. It will help build the muscles you are strengthening with the 30 pounder and it will also be an indicator of progress...I'm guessing your shaking is going to diminish over time and eventually go away altogether.
Getting back to your weight training; doing a lot of reps with a light weight with toughen and work harden your muscle, but neither increase the size nor raise the bar in terms of limitations. You need to work-harden your shooting muscles and perfect your draw, anchor and release, but it can't stop there. Once you begin to have control in that area, you should start moving up the ladder with a heavier bow (not necessarily 55#, mind you) but moving up nonetheless, which is why I had initially suggested a replaceable limb bow. But any way you accomplish this is OK. But as with weight lifting, if you can bench 200 and stay there, 200 is all you will ever be able to press.
I find that drawing and holding a heavier bow for a count of 5, then letting down, resting and repeating a half dozen times (as opposed to actually shooting the heavier bow) will give you all the isometric advantage of shooting without affecting your TP issues.
You might be shooting improperly spined arrows from your 30#er too. If they are properly spined for your 55# bow they will be way heavy for a 30# bow.
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Thanks bud! But the arrows are all different. I have quite a but of archery gear. Lol. With the 30# bow im shooting 600 spine arrows and with the 55# bow Im shooting 340 spined. The 600’s aren’t perfectly tuned but they are ok for blank bale purposes and what little grouping Ive done. I have a lot of bows on hand but Ive tried selling a few to purchase a nice ILF rig so I could replace the limbs. Ive been keeping my eyes opened in case a nice used one pops up.
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Sounds like you need to just keep on keepin' on. You'll get there. :archer2:
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Thank you sir. PATIENCE, is what I need. I think all of your advice has been great and will be very helpful if I can just be patient. Thanks again bud!