Trad Gang
Main Boards => Trad History/Collecting => Topic started by: Captain*Kirk on October 23, 2019, 03:04:03 PM
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OK. I admit to being a bit of a 'Bear Snob'. Bear bow history is well-documented, with thousands of avid fans who know not only about the history of the various models, but also the current market value. This is one of the reasons I choose to buy vintage Bears. With Ben Pearson, the information trail is not as well documented or clear, but there is still a large following. But how about some of the obscure/out of biz bowmakers of yesteryear, such as Indian Archery, Browning, Martin, Damon Howatt, Shakespeare, etc? I see many of these on auction sites for dirt cheap compared to the Bears or even Pearsons. How do they measure up, what are some prime models to keep watch for, and where can one find info on bows that have been out of production for 40-50+ years?
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Shakespeare made some good bows years ago.
And don't forget Wing.
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I had Bears for 45 years, still have a few, but there is whole 'nuther world of classic bows out there that are well designed, well made and perform as well or better than any Bear bow and many have been left behind in today's crazy market . I am trying new-to-me old bows all the time, and have a rack full of outstanding bows that didn't break the bank. I have a few select Bears, but....a 1961 Wilson Brothers TF ...as good or better than the 1961 or 62 Bear Kodiak Special. 1967 Wing Thunderbird, 62"...eats Super Kodiak's for breakfast. 1961-65 Howatt Hunters...gorgeous Brazilian rosewood and years ahead of its time. 1967 Fasco Decathalon II...the target bow Bear would never dare to make. 1962 Browning Olympian...wow. Just wow. Folks these days are spending upwards of $750 for a 1960 Kodiak Deluxe or 62 KS...I spent one fifth of that for a 1964 Drake Firedrake. Bear made more bows every week than Harry Drake made in a lifetime..yet only Harry Drake still holds the world record for the longest shot with a bow and arrow, the longest any object was ever propelled by human power, alone. Even less for a 1965 BP Golden Sovereign Lord Mercury, or a 1966 Ben Pearson Mustang , Root Gamemaster, Shakespeare Ocala.
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Ah, yes...Wing! I have a lefty Wing hanging on my wall (missing a tip overlay) that has served as eye candy for as long as I can remember, for me and my boys, when they were young. The other day my grown son told me he always had a 'thing' for archery from growing up looking at that bow.
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I was going to reply but Mangonboat said it well. Bear is definitely overated compared to many other makers and I say that being a Bear collector. But hey, Fred Bear is a legend and did so much for the sport that we will never change there desirability.
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I get what you guys are saying. But where does one go to learn about all the less-celebrated bows/bowmakers? I passed on a pawnshop Shakespeare last summer because I knew absolutely nothing about Shakespeare or the bow model itself, even though it appeared to be in good condition and was certainly priced right! Any online resources for identifying these sleeper bows?
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vintagearchery.org is good. there is also a Shakespeare site and others.
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I own and shoot dozens of vintage bows, and only one of them is a Bear. Nothing against them - I've owned tons over the years, but there is a lot more interesting stuff out there. Two of my obscure favorites are late '50s Sanders Swift and a similar era Gelco 800 which was a short lived collaboration between Frank Eicholtz and one of the Gordon brothers. The performance of these two is way before their time.
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Captain Kirk, you should give yourself a quest. I spent 4 years trying to find a Browning Diana for my daughter. One of the most outstanding under-rated classic recurves ever was the 1961 Shakespeare X-15. Here's some photos of the original Captain Kirk, Bill Shatner, shooting his while astride his motorcycle in the California desert.
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I've seen plenty of Shakespeares, but never one designated as an X-15.
I may have to add that to my search list...just because. I mean, if it's good enough for Bill Shatner, well... :thumbsup:
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The x 15 became a heavier , more massive target bow in subsequent years, but the 63" 1961, especially, was an awesome all purpose bow. I got sniped in a tense auction for one last year. I grumbled about it for weeks.
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I thought the Browning Wasp I had shot as good as my old Bear SK. But then agian didn’t Harry Drake design Browning bows?
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Harry Drake lent his name to a 3 piece takedown and was identified as designer of a Browning 'folding" takedown in 1975, but there's no official mention and no verifiable info to suggest he had any earlier role in Browning design . The Wasp was introduced in 1971.
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So many bows,Not enuff time... I always liked the old Shakesperes. Killed lots of deer with a 15$ Yukon. The wings I have shot are stacky.But cast a very fast arrow. I stay with the Bears because of a rich history and collectabillity. If you want to sell one it can be gone quickly.
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Have to agree with Mangonboat...I have tried a lot of Bear bows and all I kept were some very early K Mags and two 1958 Kodiak Specials. The rest were underwhelming...
Howatt's, Wings's, Westbow's, Staghorn's, FASCO's, Shakespeare's Gordon/Browning's Sander's are far better performers as a lot more R&D went into the limb designs. They're not really sleeper bows as they are in demand.
There is all sorts of info on the internet about the other makes.
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There is all sorts of info on the internet about the other makes.
Yes, but scattered all over creation for the most part.
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Martin archery bows, the High Speed, Super Diablo, Hatfield takedown, Savanah long bow, they were all great bows and still are.
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Quoting Patrick Meitin in a 2006 Peterson's bowhunting article:
" The Kaibab is to die for."
After reading his article I've bought numerous Kaibab bows.
I totally agree with his opinion!!!!
KYBOWMAN
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Black Hawk ( Cravotta Brothers ) made some nice bows back in the day. They can still be found on the auction sites and are usually reasonably priced.
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This is what the X15 morphed itno
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Here is a 1963 X15 - 66
It is a enjoyable shooter at 45 lbs and 66"
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The Browning Explorer II is one of my favorites!
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I have a 45# Kaibab and I'll vouch for it. Its a badass bow .,,, Would LOVE to get my hands on a 40#.
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Here's a 1967 Root Brushmaster, similar to the Kaibab but a bit fancier. [ You are not allowed to view attachments ]
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Here is a better picture of the riser... [ You are not allowed to view attachments ]
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I like that Peter , on my want list.
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Sweet bow!!
Precursor to the Kaibab maybe?
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Root Archery made all of the bows for Shakespeare and produced a line of their own under their own label, such as the Warrior and the Gamemaster.
The Brushmaster was another such model. It was 58" like the Kaibab. The one pictured was made in 1968. The finish and detail work on the Roots was a little better than the Shakespeare's.
The rarest of those models was the "butcherblock" Gamemaster made only two years.
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Harry Drake lent his name to a 3 piece takedown and was identified as designer of a Browning 'folding" takedown in 1975, but there's no official mention and no verifiable info to suggest he had any earlier role in Browning design . The Wasp was introduced in 1971.
Mark is correct. Jerry Amster and Jack Bice designed Browning's initial bows in late 1962. Jack was chief bowyer for at least another six years. Harry Drake had nothing to do with Browning except for the Backpacker.
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Sweet bow!!
Precursor to the Kaibab maybe?
Here's a closeup pictures of the Brushmaster's riser. It is the same year as the Gamemaster. The work on the risers was elaborate.
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Man, you guys are showing some gorgeous stuff I've never even seen before! Lovin' it!
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Indian Archery made a lot of bows and gained a reputation of making plain Jane copies of other companies bows that underperformed.
Pictured is an example of an offering from Buddy Watson, Indian's bowyer and designer, that completely refutes that claim.
66" and 50#. It is a fast tack driver that has so many lams in the riser I lost count.
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Just for comparison sake, this is a Monterey model made by Howatt Archery in mid 1961. Compare this to what other companies were making that year. A design well ahead of it's time, and not just because of the elaborate riser design. It had double tapered limb laminations that thickened towards the tip to control how the recurve unloaded.
A lot of the riser was hand filed as opposed to using a sanding machine.
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I had a Root Warrior at one time but traded it for a higher poundage Kaibab.
I believe the Kaibab outperforms the Root.
I believe Earnie's design is what the Kaibab is based on.
They are one sweet shooting bow!!!
JMHO
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I had a Root Warrior at one time but traded it for a higher poundage Kaibab.
I believe the Kaibab outperforms the Root.
I believe Earnie's design is what the Kaibab is based on.
They are one sweet shooting bow!!!
JMHO
Ernie did design them all. Interestingly, the limb lamination stack on the 1966-67 Necedah is the same as the Kaibab and Ocala.
The limbs on the Warrior are different than the Necedah and the Kaibab.
I have a couple of Kaibab's and find they are similar to the Brushmaster.
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Ahhh...ditto on the Sanders.! Lets not forget Staghorn...fine bows.! Still in hot pursuit of a Browning Explorer 1..!!!! Early 60s Women Penna State Champ Celia Walter used to say Staghorns shot rings around a Bear alllll day long. The old timers around here felt Bears were "Dept store" bows. Liked the custom boyers better....
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Here's a very nice Staghorn T-60 Tempest...52#, quick and stable.
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Got my 67 Sk when they came out, ordered the 64" because I'm wide shouldered and long armed. Drew a 31" arrow back then. Spring of 72, made usual switch to hunting gear for the monthly field round club shoots. While at full draw on a downhill 55 Yd shot of the 2nd 14 targets, the lower limb slowy folded back towards me.
The next Friday evening I was in the Bow Rack in Albany, Ca. learning about Darton Archery. Like Ben Pearson, the company promoted best performance at longer draw lengths. Their top hunting bow was their 60" Fury. And a good looking bow to boot! After shooting about a dozen arrow on the shops 30 yd range, I bought it. It's has been a great bow, and still is.
I like it so well that when I saw a similar shaped riser of a Darton Classic on the bay site, I put it on my watch list. Next day seller sends me 10% savings. I hit bin. Shedula maybe?
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I'm also quite fond of Damon Howatt bows. The bow he and Larry Hatfield designed were ahead of their time. The Howatt company still make traditional bows. I have a 1974 curved stripe Hi-Speed that I love. While it is 58' bow, I draw it to 30" with no stack I can feel.
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Might Isuggest a Shakespeare Ocala or Kaibab, they're about as fast as a Groves but can be had forhalf the cost. They're great lookers too. The Telum bows, Nico & Litellis are way more awesome than anything I've ever shot, except the Jack Howard Game Master. Jack Howard, I believe, made the perfect bow.
Shakespeare made some good bows years ago.
And don't forget Wing.
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So here are a few oldies---
The Root Targetmaster from 1956 and the Shakespeare RH 400 from 1959
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Just picked up the butcher block Root Gamemaster two weeks ago and it looks just like the one Gerald Denley posted. It is one of the cleanest bows I own and shoots really nice.