Trad Gang
Main Boards => The Shooters FORM Board => Topic started by: frassettor on November 30, 2019, 04:03:39 PM
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I’ve been a snap shooter for 20+ years and would like to try and possibly “hold “ a half second or so to see if that works out better for me. The problem lies in my subconscious. It’s so ingrained in my current method that if I try and hold , my subconscious screams At me and before I know it, the arrow is on its way. I am not short drawing, I’ve been videotaped several times and looked at it, but I can’t seem to hold it. Any Suggestions on training an old dog new tricks?
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God willing and creek don't rise, I will be at Stevens Point in Feb . I may be able to help.
Arne
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If you are serious about wanting to make a change, I recommend taking Jim Casto's course. It is quite a commitment, but if you're willing to give up two months of your shooting life, I can pretty much guarantee you that you'll be able to hold as long as your back muscles will hold out.
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Clay Hayes just posted a vid on this recently, he recommended using a clicker to make sure you are achieving full expansion and back tension at full draw.
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I saw that. My issue lies in holding at full draw, not achieving full draw.
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When I changed from "snap" to hold I would draw the bow and count to five before release. I found that getting close to the target and not trying to hit a specific spot helped the process move along. Took a fair bit of time to resist dropping the string when I reached full draw but the results where worth it.
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I saw that. My issue lies in holding at full draw, not achieving full draw.
As in...inability to physically hold full draw, or 'TP release' type?
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I saw that. My issue lies in holding at full draw, not achieving full draw.
As in...inability to physically hold full draw, or 'TP release' type?
I can physically hold it, no issues.
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Sounds like beginning stages of TP.
I might suggest contacting Jim Casto here on TG...he deals with this stuff a lot.
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Ditto on the suggestion that you put yourself on Jim Casto's program. It works great IF you are willing to make a full commitment to do it as designed, and that depends on how much you want to deal with the problem.
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Do you have a link/ information on this program?
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frassettor,
PM me your email address and I'll forward the program to you.
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Jim Casto’s course is the way to go . The only other advice I can give , is to not wait until you’re 68 to deal with the issue , like I did .
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I used the counting method also, but I only counted to two - out loud. Got a few funny looks, but it didn't take too long get used to holding at full draw.
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"The only other advice I can give , is to not wait until you’re 68 to deal with the issue , like I did ."
Thanks for the giggle BruceT. I did Jim's course last year when I was 68. Worked wonders. Think of the grief it would have saved if you'd told me 20 years ago. LOL
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What I do since I'm a gapper and use the point to establish gap is to wait until the arrow stops moving around and settles down before I let go. Simple as that. If I don't and the arrow is still bobbing around I'll make a poor shot. If you are instinctive and don't see the arrow (some say they don't) I guess this will not work. It really is my only shooting thought I have too.
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I assume if you are a gapper, you have a point in mind where you would like the arrow point to end up. While you are waiting for the arrow to stop moving around, are you directing it to that point, or is that something that just happens? If you are consciously directing it, what part of your body are you moving to make that happen?
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I guess it's easier to do than explain. I'm a gapper and gap at the riser so the largest gap for me would be putting the point 1" down from the spot so easy to keep the point and spot in focus. I draw, anchor, and hold while the point does a little dance around the spot and will stop or nearly stop and then I shoot. When I get to anchor the point is there but moving around slightly. Very similar to shooting a rifle offhand. I must let the sights settle down before pulling the trigger. The whole thing only takes a second or two.
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When I encountered this problem a few years ago I hung my 60# Black Widow on the wall and bought a bow that probably drew around 25# and practiced my shot sequence for about 2 months before I ever picked up my hunting bow again. Once you lose the weight you have more room in your mind to concentrate. It worked wonders for me maybe its worth a try.
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Rod Jenkins said that he and I shoot the exact same way only I do it faster..... You should never hold but continue to pull even if it's micro.
Every person I've ever seen hold at full draw shakes.
My motto is an anchor point is not a destination but an evolution to execution.
My recommendation would be to simply slow down your draw.
If you have target panic I can't help you with that I have never experienced it.
But whatever you find that works for you is the best.
Call me ...I have one question to ask you before you change your entire repertoire....
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When I changed from "snap" to hold I would draw the bow and count to five before release. I found that getting close to the target and not trying to hit a specific spot helped the process move along. Took a fair bit of time to resist dropping the string when I reached full draw but the results where worth it.
This is exactly what I'm in process of doing...learning to hold on target for multiple seconds (5 is the magic number). This is shot control for me and it makes a world of difference.
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Years ago, before the internet, I went to holding on target. I just worked on hitting anchor and then settling in on "the spot". I never experienced target panic once I kept telling myself focus on the spot, focus on the spot after I hit full draw and anchor.
Just my thoughts
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When I changed from "snap" to hold I would draw the bow and count to five before release. I found that getting close to the target and not trying to hit a specific spot helped the process move along. Took a fair bit of time to resist dropping the string when I reached full draw but the results where worth it.
This is exactly what I'm in process of doing...learning to hold on target for multiple seconds (5 is the magic number). This is shot control for me and it makes a world of difference.
There’s nothing really magic about 5 seconds or any other number, but if that helps you to achieve self-control, good for you. I did that for a while myself with 3 seconds. After I successfully did that for a while, I discovered that what I really needed to do was to overcome the nervous sensation that made me want to dump the arrow as soon as I reached full draw. I found that if I anticipated that nervous sensation, I could hold through it until I could relax. I don’t know how many seconds that is, probably changes depending on how much pressure I’m feeling that day, but for me it seems more related to the root cause of the problem.
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Yea you are right... didn’t really mean it the way I said it. If I can hold on target five seconds, my mind hits that relaxed feeling - and now I have control
of the shot. I don’t anticipate five seconds always being a necessity.
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For me, personally... hitting my anchor is one part of what triggers my release. Once I'm there (with 2 anchor points), I do a quick mental scan to check that my alignment feels good, and fine tune my sight picture to where it's just what I want. Can vary from a "snap shot", if everything happens to fall right in place,
to a few seconds if I'm making adjustments. And if something about the draw doesn't feel right, I LET DOWN, and start over.
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OK, been at this since 1991 or so after the Robin Hood movie with Costner. Bought a Saxon Longbow of47# and bought Asbell's book and went about learning. Built a Longbow form and built some ten bows from it. Used the various bow designs from Traditional Bowyers of America by Bertalan. The bows came out fine and still have the first two I built. Moved to NC in '95 nd started shooting 3D. Never did real well though in the Convention Center in Raleigh I came in second with one dropped target. My bud had shot three targets out of sequence and got to shoot them over, he won by one point. Shooting a 55 # Jerry Hill bow by PSE using Split Vison aiming. The drop was because I didn't make note of the Aim Off Point. That started my downward slide with Target Panic. Suffered for some 17 years until this time last year. Casto's program was tried and couldn't get into it. I had been trying to rebuild from scratch my shooting form by eliminating 30 years of bad habits. Not much luck until I built my version of the Formaster from leather straps and Paracord. In one month I had put my TP at bay for the most part. I started the quest for good back tension and evolved to a rotational draw. Changed my anchor and aiming style tying everything over the course of one year. I bought A 46# Wesley Special to shoot in the Texas Longbow Championship which was cancelled last week. That was my first 3D shoot back in 1992. Wanted a go one last time. I am 75 and am now a decent self coach after a year. I use a Rotational draw via Arne Moe and am back to Split Vision Split Finger Draw with Middle finger corner of mouth. I tried 3 Under, Fixed Crawl, Point On, Gap, Instinctive, and Split Vision Aiming during this time. The physical form functions except for two are now ingrained and comfortable. I am having trouble with a creep or pluck at release. I have a three point anchor with index knuckle on cheekbone and thumb knuckle on the aft jaw bone. Middle finger rests jus over a missing molar on upper jaw. I use a Dura Glove from 3Rivers and a Bearpaw Speedglove. Gone thru Tabs and different gloves over the last 12 months. I had three bucks at 15 yards with arrow knocked and just could never get a good shoot, in my front yard. Good Acorn Crop last year helped. 3D targets in the yard, shot one up and two vital inserts. Shot the NFAA 300 target course and was hovering around 200, have shot a 240 in the past before the TP set in. I am now shooting from 10 thru 30 yards and have gotten 6" five shot groups in the deer vitals more than a few times. I am canting the bow now with the rotational draw which keeps me from blinking on the draw and anchor, a form flaw that was giving me fits. My consistency is getting better, but the relaxed dynamic release is not quite there. Shot sequence: aim point picked; feet shoulder alignment set; bow arm rotated clockwise, no armguard in summer; bow hand 45 degree low bow grip(Yaeger Lo) on my DAS Dalaa Longbow. Have an elevated rest, Simple NAP; regular shelf on Hill bow; as I draw I glance at the arrow which is pointed off to left beginning rotational draw;
note split vision gap aim off; draw to anchor focusing on the target(aim small miss small); three point anchor continuing focus on target; a couple seconds like Rick Welch helps; continue pull with back tension; unconscious release and follow thru to impact. Then the release is with full back tension and not creep draw hand comes back and the arrow hits where I am looking. When it does, it is like magic. Back to the Formaster for this final bit. Set up for standard draw and release with no arrow, did this just now in my living room. No Target Panic and good hold to release. I am Dryfiring the Bow without damaging it the cord doesn't let the string go forward at all. Form practice thru release with out target anxiety and no bale......I don't like the bale. Now the arrow reference is missing, no arrow. Go outside and out and put an arrow on the string. Set up on your 3D target at ten yards and shoot it. The arrow won't fly very far and if you shoot five you will see them in a tight little wad in front of you, 10 feet or so. Go to 15/20/25 and repeat. You are practicing without target anxiety and going thru your whole shot sequence. What is the point? You have your look to release whether aiming with the arrow tip or instinctive. Just practice your form and shoot, no bale, no long walk. The key with the Formaster is developing that muscle memory without all of the spurious inputs we allow our brain to make. Rather than months of trying to hit that target, you can change bits of your form without the normal anxiety. Its is not just for Olympic Archers hitting targets. You are always shooting at a target, just not with pure Target Archery stance. So it is for target archery because younger shooting targets, that is your aim after all. Long post, but at 75, I made my one last jump to get rid of my TP and make Archery fun again. I am shooting better than ever, and at 75, can work into any bow I own with my Formaster as my go to tool to keep the bad habits from creeping back in. Oh, without changing my look, I can go from DAS to the Hill and back.
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Welcome to TradGang, 75 longbow. I’m 75 too, and resemble your struggles with TP over the years. After reading many reports about TP, and finishing several courses designed to cure it, my only conclusion is that if you want to defeat it badly enough, you eventually will.
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You guys who are struggling with TP and holding at full draw.....
Get a copy of Instinctive Archery Insights by Jay Kidwell. Read the last chapter on target panic. His methods cured me in 5 minutes after battling TP for the past 3 years.
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I changed my focus point from the anchor point to the back muscle I needed to engage in helping hold steady. I find that if you focus all your energy on the anchor, you build up tension or anxiety that many get to anchor or not and let fly. I get to anchor and don't stop there, I focus on the small muscle in my back that I can feel only when I'm at the right set point I want to be in. This gives me a couple of seconds more at least to settle in before I release.
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Is Jim Castro's program still available?
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Is Jim Castro's program still available?
Yes, the complete program is available to anyone who wants it here https://www.tradgang.com/tgsmf/index.php?topic=165535.100
(Look at the last post on the page).
I did the program a few years ago, and recommend it highly. The only caveat is that it must be done completely as Jim lays it out. Anything less than that would just be a waste of your time.
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Thanks McDave!
I posted on this thread, then saw that other one where Jim posted the pdf for everyone to download. Thanks again