Trad Gang
Main Boards => The Bowyer's Bench => Topic started by: Shredd on June 13, 2021, 11:37:10 AM
-
Most of my bows that I had made have good arrow flight... Every now and then I would get a high nock flight... All of these years I have heard bowyers talk of tillering and limb timing so that the limbs bottomed out at the same time... I was told this will give you better performance and less vibration and less noise... I have talked to bowyers and seen bowyers on forums talk about tiller and the general rule was even tiller for three under and positive tiller for split finger... Two bowyers that I respected said, he does all his bows 1/16" positive tiller and the other said he just makes all his even tiller...
I always thought about limb timing because that is what I was taught... This thing always bothered me because I knew in my heart that there was more to this and the answer was always out of my grasp... It was frustrating for me so I just settled on the norm or the standard... I made all my bows with mostly 1/16" positive tiller and some even tiller... I just figured that I would not be that far off and just settled for that and did not research it any more... It still bothered me but I knew that one day the answer would come to me...
UNLESS I MISSED SOMETHING, NOT ONE TIME DID ANYONE MENTION TILLER AND HOW IT EFFECTS ARROW FLIGHT...!!!
My most recent bow had nock high arrow flight... I got sick of not knowing exactly why but I knew it had something to do with tiller... I decided to research it more and felt that Roy's tillering technique would be the answer... I also knew in my heart that just because you try to make perfectly matching limbs, they are still not perfect and in a perfect world if the limbs are drawn back evenly they should bottom out evenly... Well this is not a perfect world and one limb could be a hair thicker than the other and be stiffer and return to brace faster... So static tiller at brace may not be the answer... Dynamic tillering is needed... With my 3 pc. bow I decided to use Roy's method of tillering... As a base line and just wanted to see what the limbs were doing... So I centered the bow and put the hook in the middle... The hook drifted south, to the bottom limb... KABOOM...!!! IT ALL MADE SENSE NOW... MYSTERY SOLVED... When the string is gonna return to brace the nocking point is going to take an upward path sending the arrow nock high...
It took a while but I finally figure it out... Mystery solved.... It was right in front of my face but sometimes it takes time and chance to finally understand... Just like when you were a kid and your Dad would say, "I would not do that if I were you"... And years later you finally understood why... Which leads me to another point... My philosophy in life is not to believe or dis-believe anything you are told, but to take in the information and later on use it down the line when you finally understand it and find out if the info is true or false... I always held onto Roy's info and through my own process I figured out how to understand it and use it... On the other hand I have been led astray a few times and took in false information that I thought was true because it came from an experienced bowyer... So what it gets down to is that everyone has their own learning process and learning experience and what works for one may not work for another or someone could just be full of their own BS and not even know it... In my mind your job is to find the best, correct and true path that you can and produce the best quality that you can with what you have learned...
-
I would think nock high arrow flight has more to do with nock point height than tiller.
-
I just want to add one more thing...
I feel that Today is the day that I have Graduated to being a full fledged Bowyer... I now have learned and mastered all of the basics of making a glass bow... It only took me about 6 to 7 years... :laughing: And there is still so much more that I still crave to learn...
It may sound cocky to some, declaring myself as an Accomplished Bowyer but then is it not humble to wait 6 to 7 years to make that claim...??
:shaka: Feeling Good.... :shaka:
-
I would think nock high arrow flight has more to do with nock point height than tiller.
Combination of both... Setting nock height is the final tweaking... The bow tiller like it was, would basically only give me nock high flight... If I lowered the nocking point to get better flight it would either be too close to the shelf and or start bouncing off it, giving me nock high and also an erratic flight... Like Roy said, if I was raise my rest I would get better flight... But I want to keep the rest close to my hand... So I just switched the limbs on the riser and I am getting way better flight...
-
I've been mentioning how tiller, or more accurately, dynamic balance (limb strength balanced relative to the archer's fulcrums) affects arrow flight, vibration, and noise for at least 15 years, maybe 20. I taught Roy... once he was ready to listen. :knothead: Right buddy? Lol
You're on the right track Shredd, but there's more... if you predetermine the nock point height, then actually do balance the limb's strengths relative to your holds, you won't have to move the nock point afterwards. It will be right. For you. No issues to 'fix' or mask by moving it. You should expect the first arrow off each new bow to fly with purpose... not porpoise.
-
Experienced bowyers? Hmmm. Well if a bowyer, ANY bowyer anywhere, tells me "He tillers all his bows (X) positive because"... I'm done listening already. I don't tiller any of my bows to a predetermined tiller measurement. That's a guess... at best.
I set my nock point at 3/8" above perpendicular to the shelf, which barely elevates the arrow 1/16 or so, then set my tree up to replicate my fulcrums, and balance the strength of the limbs. I don't even bother measuring the tiller at brace until it's complete and ready to go outside and shoot it in.... and then only measure bows of natural materials as a baseline to know whether the tiller shifts with use. And guess what..... when a bow is dynamically balanced, there's much less chance that'll happen too.
-
Ah come on Bowjunkie, you know darn well I taught you..
LOL
Thanks for the lessons, Jeff..
I'm proud of ya Rich.
Your going to be an even better shot now and a better bowyer..
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
-
Is this one of those"everyone gets a trophy for participating" things. If so, I want one too. :knothead:
-
You're on the right track Shredd, but there's more... if you predetermine the nock point height, then actually do balance the limb's strengths relative to your holds, you won't have to move the nock point afterwards. It will be right. For you. No issues to 'fix' or mask by moving it. You should expect the first arrow off each new bow to fly with purpose... not porpoise.
So once the limbs timing and the nockpoint on the string are established, the other challenge is to have a consistent pressurepoint with the bow hand, ie, a repeatable grip?
-
If the grip is supported on the tillering tree so it cannot tip, and limb strength is balanced so the hook, placed at the string hand fulcrum position, comes straight down without wandering off toward a stronger limb, that's pretty good limb balance, and the bow will pull nice and even into the relaxed bow hand so there's little challenge to a consistent, repeatable grip.
If instead someone wanted to know exactly where the pivot point was, or wanted to apply more pressure low or high, they could place something under the grip that allows it to pivot. Then that pivot could be moved left or right until the bow balanced when drawn, or placed where wanted, then limb strength adjusted as needed to achieve balance.
I cut the end off of a big double cut halfround file for this.
-
I cut the end off of a big double cut halfround file for this.
I felt like I was following until this. Can you explain more about this?
-
If the grip is supported on the tillering tree so it cannot tip, and limb strength is balanced so the hook, placed at the string hand fulcrum position, comes straight down without wandering off toward a stronger limb, that's pretty good limb balance, and the bow will pull nice and even into the relaxed bow hand so there's little challenge to a consistent, repeatable grip.
If instead someone wanted to know exactly where the pivot point was, or wanted to apply more pressure low or high, they could place something under the grip that allows it to pivot. Then that pivot could be moved left or right until the bow balanced when drawn, or placed where wanted, then limb strength adjusted as needed to achieve balance.
I cut the end off of a big double cut halfround file for this.
http://buildyourownbow.com/the-truth-about-bow-balance/
-
If the grip is supported on the tillering tree so it ................I cut the end off of a big double cut halfround file for this.
Thanks Jeff,
http://buildyourownbow.com/the-truth-about-bow-balance/
nice reference link, Mark.
-
I saw that web page years ago. It's frustrating to me. He stopped short and missed a good opportunity to learn and show others what it takes to achieve balance. He should have taken the next critical step and weakened the appropriate limb to balance the bow. He never actually showed what it takes to balance it, and instead made assumptions based on conventional wisdom... which is often wrong.
Perhaps he intended to, maybe even tried to and it made it worse, so that's why he didn't include it... THE most important part.
-
Is this one of those"everyone gets a trophy for participating" things. If so, I want one too. :knothead:
LOL Pat.. Pay attention young man and you might get a trophy:)
Rich you just opened the door to limb timing and you will excel with, I'm positive about that, knowing how you are..
-
After some experimenting I ended up with a flat insert that drops down into the tillering tree cradle, and the end of a double cut file to use as the pivot point. I used that because it's curved and has teeth that grip the wood. That's fine on a roughed in bow, but when it's sanded and closer to finished, and more balanced so there's less chance of it slipping anyway, I just lay a little piece of leather over it to protect the wood. Sandpaper glued to the insert ensures the pivot won't move or kick out at a critical time.
-
A few more
-
I saw that web page years ago. It's frustrating to me. He stopped short and missed a good opportunity to learn and show others what it takes to achieve balance. He should have taken the next critical step and weakened the appropriate limb to balance the bow. He never actually showed what it takes to balance it, and instead made assumptions based on conventional wisdom... which is often wrong.
Perhaps he intended to, maybe even tried to and it made it worse, so that's why he didn't include it... THE most important part.
I agree, I was looking for the second page to continue reading
-
Now ya see where I got mentored at..
Jeffs bow.
[ You are not allowed to view attachments ]
My bow.
[ You are not allowed to view attachments ]
-
Thanks Bowjunkie. That clarifys it.
Im too much about getting things perfect and I'm still trying to visualize how to get the perfect push up position.
I was left hanging with the Thorne illustration too but it's a good understanding of the basics.
-
I hope to do more to help clarify and demystify tiller soon. I have demos and experiments planned, a long list of questions to address, test bows and measuring equipment prepared.... what I don't have enough of is time. Need to retire I guess. But the wife says if I retire, she's putting me to work at her bakery so... :dunno:
-
Difficult choices. I didn't have a choice on retirement. A smashed femur was the incentive. :o
-
Oww geeze. I bet that didn't feel good. Sorry to hear about that. That's sure not how a guy wants to enter retirement.
-
Good stuff... Thanks Junkster...
I am glad and relieved that I finally had that A-ha moment... It was the last piece of the puzzle that I was missing...
-
Good stuff... Thanks Junkster...
.....I finally had that A-ha moment...
No reason to go all Oprah about it. :)
-
What's Oprah?? Is that like Ocra?? :)
-
Been using the dynamic method for years., but mine is set up laying on a table with a graph drawn on it . Use a boat winch to draw and place a curved section to imitate finger width on hook of scales and draw back and map limbs. Once the tips arrive at same position its mostly done. Works well
-
What's Oprah?? Is that like Ocra?? :)
Oprah Winfrey. She embedded "aha moment" in the American lexicon. :)
-
Shredd, Thanks for this post. Gets rid of a few more cobwebs, dang spiders anyhow.
-
Really, heck caveman did it for years:)
-
They carved the tree into the walls of the cave:)
-
Hold on, let me get my boots, It's getting deep in here
(https://i.imgur.com/TcscvfD.jpg)
-
I wish I paid more attention to how my dad tillered. He never had anything but a knife and I'm still shooting some of the bows he made 40 years later.
Learn how to floor tiller, when you do this and get good at it, the bow can be close to finished before you ever brace it.
Edit---Then go to the tiller tree.
-
I wish I paid more attention to how my dad tillered. He never had anything but a knife and I'm still shooting some of the bows he made 40 years later.
Look up Clay Hays on You tube, he makes bows without a tree using only a knife. He has numerous videos on making bows.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZ7UBkTEvwE
-
He is also on the tv show 'Alone'... Just saw the first episode last night... He gets a grouse, a fish and a whole slew of mushrooms on the first day or two, like he's shopping at the grocery store... He may end up taking this thing... There is also a chick on there that is very knowledgeable and will eat anything... I think they all have tarps for shelter... After making a quick temporary shelter I would think my first priority is food, especially if you are skinny... Some are going hungry, wasting valuable energy and calories building a permanent shelter first because of the fear of bears...
-
Water 💧 gotta have Water.
-
Yes indeed... But... They are all on a lake and have a pot to boil it...
-
Yes indeed... But... They are all on a lake and have a pot to boil it...
I wouldn't know, I watched a couple episodes previously and thought that those seasoned outdoors types who were too lonesome and afraid of the bears to stay more than a couple days was kinda dumb.
The final straw was the guy who risked the loss of an arrow shooting a pine squirrel high in a tree. He hit the squirrel alright but the squirrel coroner would have ruled it an accidental death.
-
Yeah, that would have been cool... But I am sure he has ol' trusty with him and can hit the mark...
I have not watched tv forever but I am on the computer a good bit...
-
There are other things that can cause arrow flight to be nock high .. not just tiller. Anything a bowyer does with tiller can be negated by nock point adjustment... for better or worse.
Using only one nock point when shooting 3 under can cause a nock high arrow flight as the arrow slides down the string upon release and then ultimately bounces off the shelf... I'm told that this can also be the case with split shooters, but less likely.
Bare shafting extreme foc arrows at longer distances can cause some nock high readings as well.
Tillering for three under is a farce in a glass bow anyway... I know nothing of self bows. The thought that +- 1/16-1/8" of tillering will have any impact on a shooter willing to nock tune is ridiculous. A shooters string address isn't that accurate.
Number one rule of archery? always blame the equipment!
BigJim
-
You are correct on adding a nock under the arrow, especially for 3 under shooting, I neglected to mention that.
A self bow has to be shot the way it is tillered for, either split or 3 under, shooting it any other way will change the tiller for the worse and no way you should string walk with a self bow. A glass bow you can't hurt the tiller by changing from split to 3 under or string walking.
-
Granted that you could correct things with nock point positioning and an elevated rest, but I have found with my R/D bow which I believe is tillered correctly for 3 under, that I can get that nock very low, to about an 1/8" above 90*... When I switched the limbs (top for bottom) on my 3 pc. recurve, I get better arrow flight but I found that I have to have the nock a little bit higher and it is more sensitive to release and bow hand pressure than the R/D bow... A bad release and /or a little low hand pressure and the arrow starts bouncing off the shelf... Not so with my R/D bow... I just have a piece of tape for a nocking point for now... I will have to tie on two nocking points to see if that may solve the problem... By switching the top for the bottom, even though it somewhat corrected the problem I believe It is now tillered a hair too much the other way...
So in the grand outlook of things I think it is better to have the bow tillered correctly and shoot as true as possible than to correct it with nock placement and such... I believe those things should be used for fine tuning and not as an overall correction...
I learned A lot from this thread and am very grateful... Like I said this was the last piece of the puzzle for me... I feel so relieved... This tiller thing weighed on me and has bothered me for a long time... But I knew the answer would one day come knocking on my door... :goldtooth:
Some things just take time...
-
Shredd
Trad Bowhunter
**
Join Date: Sep 2016
Only took ya 4.5 years. LOL
-
Yep... How bout that.... Still lots I don't know... :thumbsup: :shaka:
-
That's a novel Idea shredd, but it only works if you are building bows for yourself or the customer can come to the shop and have it built.. and then never changes their style.
Having a low nock point is not all that.. and unless you are shooting 1/4" arrows, it only being an 1/8" high tells me that the arrow is really pointing up.
No matter what you do while building a bow, you can't ensure exact hand placement.. I crowd the shelf when I grip, but I watch many shoot that don't, even with the same bow.
If the limb tips come back to zero balanced, that is the goal. After all, we are talking about fine adjustments to the bow in comparison to the crude machine operating it.
BigJim
-
True True... Thanks for sharing your thoughts...
I guess I will have to find a happy medium for split and three under...
-
.........and it is more sensitive to release and bow hand pressure than the R/D bow... A bad release and /or a little low hand pressure and the arrow starts bouncing off the shelf... Not so with my R/D bow...
Is this the same recurve with the exceptional speed and high early draw weight?
-
The last one I built... The target bow with the over-size riser...
-
The last one I built... The target bow with the over-size riser...
A quite fast recurve, none the less. Can you score more consistently with the R/D?
-
No... I make better groups with the recurve... The mass weight plus the added weight spread out on a longer riser helps to stabilize the bow plus the window is past center which helps to get my aiming point closer to the target... I can still make good and tight groups with the R/D but it seems that I have to try and concentrate a lot harder, where the recurve seems like it shoots it's self...
Just a note on past center window... I had a problem with my arrows inconsistently going left and right... I took a piece of paper towel and folded it up into a little square and taped on my strike plate area to build it out a little and being that it was a little cushy worked a little as a plunger... Now my arrows fly consistent horizontally... I think if I stick a piece of velcro there, that should do the job...
-
A bad release and /or a little low hand pressure and the arrow starts bouncing off the shelf... Not so with my R/D bow...
this observation concerning the R/D being more forgiving makes me wonder if having a softer shooting limb on your longer heavier riser would let you score higher
-
That's a possibilty and something that I thought of doing... But the issue you just quoted me on has to do more with tillering than over all limb characteristics...
-
That's a possibilty and something that I thought of doing... But the issue you just quoted me on has to do more with tillering than over all limb characteristics...
Tillering or tuning?
with olympic bows, having an adjustable limb mount now means one can tune instead of tiller.....
I have also noticed the olympic bow limbs are not as aggressive as possible in spite of the "need" for speed when shooting at the longer yardages.
-
Tillering or tuning?
with olympic bows, having an adjustable limb mount now means one can tune instead of tiller.....
That's how my ILF is, you can adjust the limb bolts to tune.