Post by: Sojurn on June 23, 2021, 02:11:07 AM
I've never been happy with my accuracy, so I figure I had better buckle down and really start focusing.
Lately I'm working Release, Follow through, and Back tension. In that order. I figure I'll start with the string hand, and work the parts I think are the most screwed up first.
I'm using a rotational draw, and keeping my wrist bent inwards (or at least pressure on it in that direction) throughout the shot(talking string hand here). And in these videos I'm working on "grabbing the ball off of the shoulder" as the string cuts loose.
But no matter what I try, I cannot get rid of that pluck. And I dont know why.
Any thoughts?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ht_RND_7fKI
Post by: Otto on June 23, 2021, 09:40:28 AM
Post by: McDave on June 23, 2021, 09:44:57 AM
Post by: Sojurn on June 23, 2021, 09:19:43 PM
As far as my wrist goes, it's something I heard Tom Clum mention on a podcast. It seemed to help, so until I get further guidance I'll just stick with it.
So far, I'm un-learning how to shoot. Groups are opening up pretty bad, but I'll keep plugging along until things get better.
Post by: Pine on June 23, 2021, 10:08:54 PM
Your hand will stay against your face better.
And don't let go of the string, let it slip from your fingers.
Post by: Sojurn on June 23, 2021, 10:23:06 PM
I will look into static release though
Post by: Otto on June 24, 2021, 08:30:21 AM
Physics. You can debate it, but it always wins in the end.
For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
Your wrist is bent and cocked in towards the string. When you release, it has only one direction to go.
Hint:. It's not straight back.........
Post by: McDave on June 24, 2021, 10:35:46 AM
You say that when people subconsciously trigger the shot, their release happens prematurely. That may be true; I don’t know enough about the subconscious mind to debate the point. However, I do know many people who do not use an external trigger who have beautiful surprise releases, including Terry Green and Rick Welch. Terry uses a dynamic release, and Rick uses a dead release. Terry may increase back tension until the shot is triggered; Rick “waits for the shot to go off.” I even include myself in this category, although I am nowhere near their proficiency. Maybe we are using some part of our unconscious brain other than the subconscious to trigger a surprise release? I think to avoid confusion in the future, I will refer to these successful surprise releases where no external trigger is used as an internal trigger, leaving the term subconscious trigger to those who understand the subconscious mind better than I do.
Post by: Sojurn on June 24, 2021, 11:47:05 AM
It is perhaps more accurate to say I'm not actively thinking about letting go of the string? In my head, once I get to anchor, get aimed in and decide the shot feels good and that I'm going to shoot it, I'm thinking "aaaaaannnnndddd....." while increasing the pressure on my right scapula until the shot breaks.
At least, thats what I think I'm doing, or am trying to do.
I'm not thinking "Now!" Or "shoot" or whatever the case may be.
Post by: Otto on June 24, 2021, 06:35:56 PM
Good discussion.
Post by: Sojurn on June 24, 2021, 07:12:39 PM
It's been a frustrating few weeks.
Thanks again for everyone participating. It has been a good discussion.
Post by: McDave on June 24, 2021, 07:34:15 PM
Don't try to unbend it; just relax and it will unbend itself. In fact, your near-term goal should be to get rid of all of the tension in your hand (except for your hook), your forearm, and your biceps of your string arm. Maintain enough tension in the triceps of your bow arm to keep it steady. The back of your string hand and wrist should flatten out as you draw the bow without your having to think about it if you are sufficiently relaxed.
Post by: Sojurn on June 24, 2021, 08:29:21 PM
I am noticing that my curled wrist may have been a band-aid for my hook on the string. In trying to relax everything it feels like I don't have as much control of the string as I'd like. It may be something that sorts it's self out as I get a feel for this. I don't know enough just yet to say anything definitive. Great advice so far.
Post by: kerry on June 24, 2021, 10:07:22 PM
are real good though. I have improved them by re-strengthening my 3 fingers as I approach my trigger of feather to face.
I maintain scapular engagement along with "firming up" my fingers until I hit trigger. I don't completely understand it but
the results are consistent when I do this.
Post by: Sojurn on June 26, 2021, 02:37:46 PM
All in all it seems to be working, the best groups I shoot are when the string feels good, and I focus on increasing tension (saying "aaannnnddd" in my head) and finishing position for my hand. If I start trying to aim to much my groups open up. Not sure if I'll be able to focus on aiming more later as the muscle memory becomes more solid, or if I have to trust in the Force for aiming and let go of some control. Time will tell I suppose.
This is the last group of the day. from 20 yards. I did send the second arrow over the top trying to aim, I just focused on shooting after that and let the arrows fall where they were going to. Strangely, they all hit where I wanted them to....
[ You are not allowed to view attachments ]
Post by: McDave on June 26, 2021, 03:50:14 PM
I think you have enough to occupy your mind at the moment. I’m sure you’ll be able to figure out an effective aiming system later, after all the things you’re trying to do now become automatic.
I set my hook as a part of my predraw. As the first step in my draw, I push my bow arm down and forward at about a 45 degree angle. I push it with just enough force to feel the tension in my hook. I hold it there for a second or two until I am sure that my string hand is relaxed and my hook is properly engaged. If my string hand is not relaxed, I can usually do that as I am holding in the predraw position, but if anything is wrong with my hook, I take the tension off my string hand and readjust it. The nice thing is that at this moment there is nothing else going on, so I can devote my complete attention to my string hand and hook, and then not think about it for the rest of the shot.
Post by: PrimitivePete on June 28, 2021, 10:19:58 AM
Post by: Terry Green on July 28, 2021, 04:20:12 PM
You can have the most perfect release and be totally out of alignment and your perfect release will be negated.
Post by: Russell Southerland on July 28, 2021, 04:23:17 PM
Check out the Form Clock thread in the Shooters Forum. Lots of info there.
http://www.tradgang.com/tgsmf/index.php?topic=109531.0
Post by: Terry Green on July 28, 2021, 04:36:55 PM
My entire shot is subconscious to the point of when shooting at game I don't even remember drawing the bow.
Post by: Sojurn on July 30, 2021, 12:56:00 AM
Post by: Twostrings2 on August 25, 2021, 08:50:12 AM
"...I just focused on shooting after that and let the arrows fall where they were going to. Strangely, they all hit where I wanted them to...."
Post by: Sojurn on August 27, 2021, 07:46:53 PM
At least with pistol, a person first has to understand what is "ideal" form and what is proper for the individual shooter ( bodies are shaped different, some of us have injuries preventing certain movements ect). Once you and preferably a trained instructor has identified the form that's best for you, the only thing left to do is drill until the movements needed to drive the weapon become unconscious.
I suspect high level archery is something like what I've described. I also suspect I'm somewhere between finding my personal ideal form and drilling until I can't get it wrong.
I think that's what you are trying to describe. Maybe you can just naturally do that, you could be one of the people that just pick a spot and hit it and if that's the case I am absolutely jealous. . But I am not. And most people are not. I think I'll leave it at that.
Post by: Sojurn on August 27, 2021, 07:59:30 PM
My hand still pulls away from my face. Two things have kept it closer. Trying to keep my fingers closed, but letting the string "cut" through them, and adding a little bit of bicep tension. The bicep thing seems like cheating though. It's not a real fix.
Here's a question as well. Is my hand coming away from my face just a result of my arm being bent? Which is to say; after the shot breaks, if I maintain the angle between my forearm and upper arm, would the whole arm hinging at the shoulder just naturally rotate the hand more out as opposed to straight back? And if that's the case do I even have a problem?
https://youtu.be/5tbK1s0eRnA
Post by: rhampton on November 11, 2021, 02:50:00 PM
Post by: Sojurn on November 11, 2021, 04:01:34 PM
I'm starting to suspect I may not be capable of the "perfect" release with the hand sliding up along the jawline like you see in Olympian archers.
With my deer season wrapping up, I might have some time now to try addressing my release again but like I said, I don't know how much there is to gain for the amount effort I'd have to put into it.
Post by: rhampton on November 11, 2021, 04:47:03 PM
Post by: Sojurn on November 11, 2021, 07:18:17 PM
So I don't belive I'm twisting the string at full draw. I've gone through some effort to avoid that issue. The string lays behind the joint of my fingers, which is to say I have a fairly deep hook because it has proven to be the most consistent "and least damaging to my fingers).
In my head this is what I see from anchor through release. My anchor point is in my back where my shoulder blade bottoms out against my spine. It's been very consistent, my extreme spread over 5 arrows averages 3 to 5 fps over the chronograph in the shop.
So here's my shot process after getting to anchor. Bottom out the scapula on the spine, set the shoulder back slightly to lock everything in place, verify sight picture, start pulling the shoulder/scapula/elbow behind me (not away from the target, but to my rear), focus on increasing "pressure" while picturing keeping my fingers closed. Somewhere in there as I feel "pressure" or tension build in my back between scapula and spine the release will happen. This specific moment of building pressure is the last "go/no-go" check for my shot, if I'm going to abort it happens here.
At the actual release, my mind sees the string cut through my fingers, and my fingers just curl in towards my palm as the pressure from the string disappears.
This whole process from anchor to release takes 3 or 4 seconds.
That's the most detailed explanation of my release I've ever written out, so forgive me for being long winded. One thing you touched on I'm interested in is my bow being "tourqed". I'm not sure what you mean by this but, I have noticed some inconsistency with how my bow recoils after the shot. At a guess I think it has to do with how my grip is applying pressure to the bow. I have for sure noticed grip pressure changing my point of impact with arrows.
Again, sorry for the novel, looking forward to any thoughts.
Post by: rhampton on November 12, 2021, 12:44:34 PM
The reason I asked about the string crossing your fingers, is that I wondered how deep your hook is. What you described sounds good. The string "cutting through your fingers" is an interesting concept and sounds good. I believe a deep hook that allows the back of the hand to be flat and in perfect alignment with the arrow and forearm and will allow the hand to be most relaxed at full draw. I see the release as letting the had relax instantly--subconsciously and the string moves the limp fingers out of its path with no resisatance. That means the hand will have "no tension" in it throughout the follow-through. The had continues straight back due to the back tension. When you say you "picture keeping your fingers closed" are you picturing them being closed after the shot? I see some adjustment of your head when you get to full draw. Are you adjusting where your hand is touching your face as part of an anchor point?
When it comes to the bow being torqued, if you look at your video, in the view of your shot from behind, you will see the tip of the bow moves to the right just before you release. Its so hard to judge from a video, but it looks to me like the bow is slightly twisted by pressure from your bowhand. That's why is asked if you have tried shooting without the quiver on? At the release, the bow should jump straight towards the target. I wonder if the weight of the quiver is causing the bow to rotate slightly upon release instead of moving straight forward. All of the pressure from the bowhand should be directly behing the bow. If you are having to put a little pressure in your hand to keep the bow straight due to the weight of the quiver, it might affect the arrow's launch.
Did you try drawing your bow in front of a mirror? Obviously, setting the camera up in front of you, looking as close to right down the arrow as possible is also very helpful. A coach standing next to you, would be looking at these things, but you have to do it yourself. The mirror gives you a view you don't normally get and can tell you if what you think you're doing is what you are actually doing and what is in your mind's eye.
Post by: mgf on November 14, 2021, 06:27:36 AM
About the best I can get with my release is that the hand comes straight back in line with the arrow as my elbow rotates around behind me(and that is still when I'm shooting at my best). This tells me I still have some pluck. But I'm at a loss now about how to improve that, or if I even can.
I'm starting to suspect I may not be capable of the "perfect" release with the hand sliding up along the jawline like you see in Olympian archers.
With my deer season wrapping up, I might have some time now to try addressing my release again but like I said, I don't know how much there is to gain for the amount effort I'd have to put into it.
Watch your videos again but pay attention to the movement of the string elbow at the shot rather than the hand.
I can't claim to be an expert but I'd bet money that the elbow movement and the hand movement are a result of the position of your string side scapula. If you get the scapula rotated around toward the spine the forearm will straighten out and follow through will look more like what you would expect.
Remember the only interest we have in what happens after the arrow leaves is in what it can tell us about how we set things up before the arrow left.
We do a lot of talking about "back tension" but I don't think it's a very descriptive term. My take is that to have correct back tension means that the scapula is where it's supposed to be. The last important part is to maintain it through execution of the shot (not collapsing) but getting there is the harder part IMO. The old "arrow in the crook of the elbow" drill is good for working on the release.
One last thought...bringing the string shoulder/scapula around also results in a string hand that's more vertical with less tendency to torque the string.
Post by: mgf on November 14, 2021, 08:05:03 AM
Stand with both arms straight out and your palms facing forward. Your bow arm and back are perfect...but you have to do something with the string arm. Look at the target and bring your string hand to anchor WITHOUT moving your scapula. It's not so easy at first. It might help to have somebody put a hand over the scapula/shoulder blade to help detect movement.
When you're successful at getting to anchor without moving the scapula you will feel some tension in the muscles between your scapula and spine. That's back tension. Now learn to do it with a bow.
Post by: Sojurn on November 14, 2021, 10:52:07 AM
I have also done some drawing my bow towards a camera, but knowing I'm not going to shoot kind of taints the whole experiment. That being said, think any movement in the limb tips comes from the string hand settling into my face as my grip on the bow is mostly non existent until I'm actively going through release.
I'll take some video when I get to the shop next, we just got a bunch of snow here so filming outside isn't ideal.
Oh and where I move my head as my hand anchors, I think its just a bad habit from how I used to shoot. It's something I'll have to work on.
Mgf, my scapula is completely bottomed out on my spine. I don't know if I have enough room left to even activate a clicker right now. It's taken me a long time to figure out how to get to this point, but I'm very confident that my back tension is good. This is part of why I'm confused about where my release hand is ending up. It's either some other miniscule part of my set up/form, or my body mechanics just won't allow it. I think both possibilities are equally likely.