Trad Gang
Main Boards => The Shooters FORM Board => Topic started by: Todd Cook on October 04, 2021, 10:31:12 AM
-
For the gap shooters out there: What do you see at anchor? Are you focused on the tip, the gap, or the spot you want to hit?
-
A gap shooter will focus on the mark and be aware of his gap, either at the target or at the tip of his arrow.
An archer who focuses on the tip of his arrow and is aware of the gap at the mark is shooting, pick-a-point or point of aim.
-
As Jim indicates, an accurate method of aiming can be accomplished by either focusing on the spot to be hit or on the arrow point.
I'm not aware that an accurate method of aiming can be accomplished by mixing the two, at least I can't. I use the gap method, and focus on the spot I want to hit. However, since I have to be aware of the arrow point in my peripheral vision, I sometimes will inadvertently focus on the arrow point instead. If I miss high, and have no other explanation for it, I suspect that I may have focused on the arrow point rather than the spot I want to hit. If I make sure I’m focusing on the spot I want to hit in the next shot, and I don't miss high, then that sort of confirms my suspicion.
-
My focus is on the spot, but I'm also very much aware of my gap at the bow. As I've said in other posts my sideplates indexes with 17 yards. Everything below that and up to 25 follows accordingly. From 25 to my 30 point on, the tip of the arrow is secondary focus.
-
I'm focused on the spot I want to hit. I consider the distance and if it is more than 25 or less than 15, I gap either more or less than my 15 inches (half way between a deer's knee and bottom of chest).
A shot between 15 and 25 has become almost instinctive because the same gap (15 inches) puts it in the vitals.
-
That sounds like you’re transitioning into what I refer to as “split-vision". You're beginning to “feel" your gaps rather than actually thinking in terms of inches, etc.
-
I have wondered if what I have started doing would be considered split vision. If so, I didn't intend on using that aiming system, it just evolved.
-
It's been my observation that's what happens with a lot, if not most bowhunters. Over time they evolve into a split vision shooter. It doesn't seem to happen as much to spot shooters or field and 3D competition shooters.
-
How do gap shooters account for different length arrows and different types of broadheads?
-
Length of arrow will alter the distance of the gap--some. Longer arrows will shorten the gap; shorter arrows will widen it.
Length and style of broadheads don't seem to effect it much because all you see (use) is the back of the ferrule anyway.
-
I have tried several methods and I suck trying to use the point to gap with.
Instead I focus on the spot and frame the spot with the window in my riser. Guess I am gapping at the riser. My sight picture consists of the target spot framed by the riser window and aligned with the shafts length.
Could not tell you where the point is or the string blur..
-
Your method is a lot like the instinctive method taught by Rick Welch. He sees the riser window in his peripheral vision, but does not consciously use his sight picture to aim the shot. I don't believe you are “gapping at the riser,” because you are not setting a gap. Rick has been phenomenally successful with his instinctive aiming method, so you could do a lot worse than to follow it.
-
I almost hesitate to open this can of worms, but I think purely instinctive shooters find it so difficult to explain what they do because it is happening in the portion of their brain that does not have verbal skills. I have always thought that Howard Hill was a purely instinctive shooter but so many people asked him how he shot that he had to create a verbal explanation to help them that wasn't really what he actually practiced. This relates to the different ways the left hemisphere and right hemisphere "influence" our performance. A dangerous generalization, but the right hemisphere is the key to instinctive shooting and yet the verbal skills are centered in the left hemisphere (recognizing that some brains have hemispheres reversed). Any instinctive shooter will describe their most satisfying shots as being without any conscious thought (almost religious--out of body experience). Using any method of aiming will place you in the left hemisphere (anytime you are talking to yourself in your mind--left hemisphere--involving logic). The goal of instinctive shooting is to not use logic--not talk to yourself in your brain and allow it to happen "instinctively--right hemisphere. Very difficult to practice and why so much time is spent using words to describe it with no real clarity or success. The first step in becoming a truly instinctive archer is to realize that it cannot be done with logic.
-
“The first step in becoming a truly instinctive archer is to realize that it cannot be done with logic.”
I agree with that. However, I think it applies to shooters who aim using a reference, such as the arrow point, as well as instinctive shooters. Shooters who aim using a reference have to make a cognitive decision as to where to place the arrow point before they draw, but from the point where they start their draw until the arrow is released, top shooters leave cognitive thinking so they can be physically aware of all the fine movements required to complete the shot which cannot be described in words. It is impossible to think in words and concentrate at the same time.
-
I agree. Learning the form for instinctive shooting, is a totally different process and must be done before attempting to hit the target. As you alluded to, you cannot practice or develop form and try to hit a target at the same time. History records that is some Asian cultures, a string was tied to the arrow to pull it to earth so that while learning form you could not focus on where the arrow would strike. Thus, many advocate standing close to the butt while learning form to reduce the focus on where the arrow strikes. I think the form for instinctive shooting should place the arrow directly below the eye. This is done with a combination of stance and canting the bow--think alignment when shooting a shotgun. Both eyes are open with the head turned to face the target as much as the individual's physical build will permit to maximize natural triangulation, perception of depth of field and distance determination as possible. The string is not in front of the eye, but it is above the arrow. The anchor point should be in a straight line between arrow shaft and the drawing elbow. It should not require adjustment of the head or manipulation of the drawing fingers to reach anchor. The string should not be twisted by the drawing fingers. The easiest way to check this is by facing a mirror. Since most of us have bad habits developed before we learn what good form is, adjustments must usually be made. All of this must be learned with cognitive thought and practiced until muscle memory is established.
-
Good post, Raud. The only thing I would take exception to is: “It should not require adjustment of the head.” What you state is what is taught these days, but it is not what has been practiced in the past, or is practiced by everyone today. For example, one of the accomplished archers a few years ago was Jim Ploen, who taught tilting the head over the arrow. One of our best archers today is Jason Westbrock. I don't know what (or if) he teaches, but if you look at his videos, you will notice a definite dipping of his head as he is coming to anchor. The same is true with my mentor, Rick Welch, whose final movement to anchor is lowering his head to touch his nose to the feather. Not that I’m in the same class as these guys, far from it, but I tilt my head so that I can feel the bone under my eyebrow contact the string.
I think the beneficial result of the head tilt in all the cases I mention is first to establish another anchor, and second, to reduce the distance between the dominant eye and the arrow, which reduces the point-on, and the gaps, at our commonly shot trad distances of 15-25 yards.
Not that there is anything wrong with keeping the head in one position; just that there is more than one way to skin a cat.
-
It's a real pleasure sharing information with you, McDave. I agree that there are many ways of locking down a good anchor and the checks you mention may make the anchor more consistent and keep the eye in a more consistent relation to the arrow. I hope our discussion will help those trying to master instinctive shooting. That was my intent when I outlined some of the form details I teach. I advocate bringing the drawing hand to the head, not the head to the hand. I try to distill the shot down to the most basic movement, with no unnecessary movement. The position of the head should be set before the draw begins. 60 years ago, I was taught to anchor at the corner-of-the-mouth. This led me to adjust my head at full draw. That's the type of movement I think is unnecessary. I believe an experienced instinctive archer with good form, should be capable of executing an accurate shot in a very short time. In about 1 to 2 seconds from the beginning of the draw. Not snap shooting, but good form with good anchor, always hesitating at anchor and proper tension in key muscle groups. It may take years to develop this ability. When first learning form, the process is in almost slow motion. As another example, I believe the cant of the bow should be set before the draw is initiated and remain the same through follow through. Recognizing that this is the way I would teach someone learning form at the beginning of their training. For anyone reading this, please remember none of this can be learned while you are trying to hit a target.
-
“As another example, I believe the cant of the bow should be set before the draw is initiated and remain the same through follow through.”
I agree with this, Raud. I would expand on it to note that setting the cant of the bow before the bow is drawn should not limit one in shooting under or around obstacles. For example, in my case my normal cant is about 2*. As long as I maintain that relationship, I can shoot upright or leaned over. If I need to lean my torso 45* to the right to avoid an obstacle, but retain my 2* cant, that simply means that the angle of my bow will be 47* after I lean over. I don't need to figure out what I need to do to achieve a 47* angle on my bow, I just need to hold my 2* cant as I lean and bend my torso, always maintaining the magic T of my arms, shoulders, and torso.
-
Precisely! Very well explained. Once proper form is established it becomes possible to shoot from many different positions, accurately. I paused from making an inventory of my bow collection to answer your post. My wife took my storage area and I've decided to sell the ones I can part with. Just holding a pretty little Hoyt Pro Hunter, 58" and 41#. Brings back memories!
-
How do you explain instinctive shooting to someone trying to learn?
-
I think the comment you made earlier is a good start: “The first step in becoming a truly instinctive archer is to realize that it cannot be done with logic.“. When I teach someone to shoot, I teach them all about form, safety, different kinds of bows and arrows and how they work, etc., and don't say a word about aiming*. Meanwhile, they are shooting hundreds of arrows. It's amazing to me how few people even ask about aiming. For the most part, they seem to believe that if they learn to do all the things I am teaching them to do, their arrows will eventually start hitting the target. Which, for the most part, is true.
Sometimes I will see someone scrunching his head around to get his eye behind the arrow like it was a shotgun barrel, and I’ll comment that that doesn't work very well. Sometimes later on a student might come to me and want to learn about gap shooting and I will explain how to aim using the arrow point. But in my experience, using the arrow point to aim is not something that naturally occurs to most students at the beginning level unless it is something they have heard of before. Instinctive aiming does seem natural to most beginning students and they start doing it without having it explained to them, the same way they started throwing a baseball or football without anyone explaining it to them.
* Edit: other than to focus on the spot they want to hit. I do tell them that much.
-
Once proper form is established and it is time to try to hit a target, instinctively, all focus must be on the target. Almost as if you are at the target and the arrow joins you there. Most don't have the mental discipline to achieve this state. A trick to help the mind can do wonders. If you anticipate what is going to happen when the arrow strikes the target, it helps to get the focus on the target. If the target is going to make a loud noise or jump or move, the mind tends to anticipate it at the time of release. If you combine this with target movement, such as a swinging target that will make a noise when the arrow strikes, it may help even more. If you take a shot and discover you didn't use proper form, you must have the discipline to stop trying to hit and go back to form practice. This takes tremendous patience and discipline. Practicing the wrong form will defeat the purpose.
-
If you anticipate what is going to happen when the arrow strikes the target, it helps to get the focus on the target. If the target is going to make a loud noise or jump or move, the mind tends to anticipate it at the time of release. If you combine this with target movement, such as a swinging target that will make a noise when the arrow strikes, it may help even more.
It is interesting to me how different people come up with different ideas as to how to improve. I would certainly not discourage this, as it is only through being unsatisfied with where we are that we we are motivated to get better. Your idea that I quoted is a good example. The fact that it is almost entirely the opposite of my approach only highlights the breadth of human experience.
My approach from start to finish of the shot is to endeavor to keep my mind in the present moment. Any anticipation of a future event, such as the arrow impacting the target before it actually does, memory of a past event, or conceptual image from some never never land outside of time, is almost certain to have a negative impact on my shot. My attention is divided between focusing on the target and being aware of my back tension and other aspects of the shot. If I catch myself thinking cognitively (in words) during the shot process, I let down. Often though, it is only after I shoot that I am able to think back and reconstruct what was going on in my mind during the shot process, and become aware of when my thoughts led me astray.
As far as we can discover, early man began to use the bow and arrow about 50,000 years ago. This was well before any written language. Probably humans at that time didn't have much more of a spoken language than the higher mammals do now. In order to hit anything, they had to aim their bows, and without written or spoken language to learn cognitively, one has to imagine that they aimed instinctively. I believe that the ability to aim or throw instinctively has become as hard wired into our genes in the thousands of years since then as the ability to run.
As humans have developed cognitive reasoning and language skills, we have learned different ways to aim and run which have improved our abilities to do these things in certain specialized activities, such as foot racing, target archery, and sport hunting. However, during the many thousands of years before the invention of agriculture, when we were running and hunting for survival, our instinctive skills served us very well without any thought as to what might be the correct way of doing things.
-
I love your responses. As I'm reading I can't wait to reply. It is my belief that all aspects of form must be practiced to the extent that they do not require conscious thought. For my shooting, a true instinctive shot has 100% concentration on the target and none on any aspect of executing the shot. You said, "My attention is divided between focusing on the target and being aware of my back tension and other aspects of the shot". If we are referring to instinctive shooting, I don't think both can be done at the same time. I would separate "focusing on the target" from "being aware of back tension". That's why I've said it is impossible to practice form and try to hit a target at the same time. I agree with your statement, "Often though, it is only after I shoot that I am able to think back and reconstruct what was going on in my mind during the shot process, and become aware of when my thoughts led me astray." Of course that happens to me and I think it does to any instinctive archer. The moment I realize I was thinking about some deficiency in my form as I was trying to hit the target, I stop trying to hit the target and go back to form practice to correct the deficiency. Your mentioned "letting down" if you catch yourself thinking in words. I also try to do that and I think that is exactly what we should do. Getting back to the brain and how it works, I believe our "instincts" must reside in the right hemisphere, while speech it a left brain function. For me, an instinctive shot is "mindless". Of course I know the mind is involved, but not the cognitive side. I think of it as a Zen experience although I have never practiced that discipline and don't pretend to fully understand it. I actually believe our brains still have "instincts" that we are born with. We suppress them and are taught to suppress them from a very early age. 50,000 years ago, man must have been a much more instinctive creature and much less self contemplative. I don't think they aimed instinctively, I think they functioned purely instinctively. When I first started to try to shoot thrown targets, I was friends with Dale Marcy. He told me to start by trying to hit extremely small targets, not larger targets. And he said to imagine the arrow hitting the target just before my release. It worked for me and I use visualization in my shooting. I do see the arrow striking the target before it happens--if this is never-never land, then that's where I am. And now I have run out of "words" and I'm doing a poor job of trying to verbalize a mystical experience. When practicing, since I don't have the mental ability to shoot shot after shot, instinctively, I use the tricks I described to help get my focus 100% on the target for the shot. When hunting, the instincts that are hard-wired, kick in and I let myself embrace them completely.