Trad Gang
Main Boards => The Bowyer's Bench => Topic started by: Mad Max on May 06, 2022, 06:19:36 PM
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I draw mine on a CAD program and print them out, I draw and print in FINE line.
Also when printing go to --printer setup, properties, and click on (General Everyday Printing) to get FULL SCALE
You can also draw 2 lines 10" apart and measure them after printing. :thumbsup:
I cut 2 pieces of 3/4" plywood
(https://i.imgur.com/iP8M62J.jpg)
I cut down the center where the first stripes will be and tap it down on one side.
Now I can fold them back and use some double sided tape to hold them in place.
The double sided tape is used for Metal buildings to hold the Insulation on until the sheet metal is screw on.
Just google Metal building double sided tape and you should get it, maybe Amazon is where I got it :dunno:
(https://i.imgur.com/YeoQ91u.jpg)
I cut close to the line and now I'm going to sand until the line is gone
(https://i.imgur.com/1QQqqYk.jpg)
The paper want's to roll up when sanding and you cant see the line, so I roll it back down and sand it with 120 grit going straight down down down down down with my thumb backing the sand paper to cut it off, I keep sanding and doing this until I like the way it looks.
(https://i.imgur.com/q0kX3th.jpg)
I cut some lams for the stripe in the form and grind the 2 lams to .0625 for a total of 1/8" and clamp the templates together. One 1/8" stripe may be hard to bend into the shape.
(https://i.imgur.com/vngNK6j.jpg[/img
I have 5 places where there are gaps between the 2 stripes so I use some masking tape .005 thick, I can stack 2 or 3 up until I get the gaps closed, I used 2 layers for .010.
[img]https://i.imgur.com/LXxbeta.jpg)
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I have 5 places where there are gaps in between the 2 strips so I use some masking tap on the templates to push them together, The masking tape will be incased with Smooth-on--LATER. The time you spend closing the gaps with tape the better the templates will turn out.
You may have to do this twice
(https://i.imgur.com/LXxbeta.jpg)
I use thin slivers stacked on top of each other to close the gap.
(https://i.imgur.com/0cANJhG.jpg)
I wrap the 2 stripes with Saran wrap and butter up the 2 forms with Smooth-on and clamp them together.
(https://i.imgur.com/LJNWOyM.jpg)
Put some Heat lamps on it for a few hours.
(https://i.imgur.com/xXJuycX.jpg)
I have some Plexiglas coming I will screw it to the bottoms of the templates and pattern sand it to the templates.
I will do the 2nd one tomorrow
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I do this any time I want to make a template.
First time I did it I was banging my head :banghead: trying to get my riser template to fit the form
(https://i.imgur.com/3yShsia.jpg)
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Nice Mark
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Nice job Mark! You'd think you were a machinist or somethin... :thumbsup:
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Nice job Mark! You'd think you were a machinist or somethin... :thumbsup:
Nope, just a country boy :bigsmyl:
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Well I thought you was gonna break out a CNC router or sumpin. :biglaugh:
That smooth on trick does work well.
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I’m bettin he’s got one ... :biglaugh:
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No CNC for me :thumbsup:
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Nice. I have been doing that too.
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Nice. I have been doing that too.
I remember showing you, does it work good for you? :thumbsup:
Cleaned off the epoxy buggers , The side with the paper cam off pretty easy with a razor blade.
I had scraped the excess epoxy off the bottom Yesterday while it was wet, so I scraped it with a razor blade down to the plywood.
(https://i.imgur.com/6BwdySi.jpg)
Same thing I did Yesterday, Got the paper taped down and sanded to the lines and clamped together.
Looking good
(https://i.imgur.com/AUIrJiH.jpg)
Glued up the 2nd stripe :thumbsup:
(https://i.imgur.com/a0pJUck.jpg)
I will do a Riser when I get these finished :thumbsup:
No work Tomorrow, Mothers Day
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I had some made up by Brandon Stahl before he shut down the bow building that were done on a CNC router. I sure wish i could get a couple more made for my longer risers. I don't have patience to mess with building precision footing templates like you do Max..... I'll be interested in seeing the finished product and how they are used. Kirk
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Nice job Mark! You'd think you were a machinist or somethin... :thumbsup:
Marky Boy is Badass... Don't be messin' wit Marky... An' Markey don't mess... :goldtooth:
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:thumbsup:
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Mark,
Pardon the ignorance here, but the epoxy just went on the form faces. This was to get a perfect shape on the form face so they matched the stripes perfectly and gave you the correct distance and shape equally to allow for the stripes when pattern sanding your riser pieces?
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Yes
Perfect NO but good enough :thumbsup:
I will see how the glue lines look on the first riser and maybe tweak it again
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I tried using auto body bondo in a similar application on a bow form years ago and found out that some bondo expands and contracts more with heat than others, and ended up with some lumps.
I can see the advantage of using epoxy like this. It will seal the pattern edges and sand very smooth. Great idea Max. Kirk
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I do it the lazy way....after drawing it in Adobe Illustrator, I send the file to a custom plastic shop that does a laser cut.. Then I double stick the template to a thicker piece of plywood to make my sanding templates. Very reasonable cost and saves me time and frustration
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I do it the lazy way....after drawing it in Adobe Illustrator, I send the file to a custom plastic shop that does a laser cut.. Then I double stick the template to a thicker piece of plywood to make my sanding templates. Very reasonable cost and saves me time and frustration
I never thought about having it done at a plastic shop.
Thanks for that
Machine shops are to high
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I had one area that needed more epoxy. :dunno:
So I mixed up a bit and re clamped it.
(https://i.imgur.com/JkBX2x2.jpg)
I got to screw my Plexiglas to the bottom and pattern sand it to shape.
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I do it the lazy way....after drawing it in Adobe Illustrator, I send the file to a custom plastic shop that does a laser cut.. Then I double stick the template to a thicker piece of plywood to make my sanding templates. Very reasonable cost and saves me time and frustration
THAT is an excellent suggestion....What type of plastic are you having them use? Kirk
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The first time I used 1/2 inch plexi which was more expensive. I used some kind of black stuff that was cheaper the last time and worked fine. I would find a shop and talk to them to make a good choice. I only use the plexi/plastic stuff to make my wood templates that I use for shaping. You could use a router to make your working templates I guess, but I used my Robo-sander. Not all that confident with a router.
I also had them make a template that looks just like Max's drawing, where they only cut out the the space for the lamination (mine is a total width of 0.150). Then I can just slap the footing template on a piece of wood, scribe the outside lines, cut between, and have three pieces ready to sand to the lines. I did a build along a long while ago that shows it. It is up above in the Build-along folder.
I'm feeling pretty good about figuring something out that Kirk hasn't already invented! :thumbsup:
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Trust me bro…. I’m not inventing much of anything. Just a lot of years of working with tools in various trades. The experience I’ve accumulated in building things with different materials, and screwing things up, makes a guy get creative at times. That’s about it.
The CNC age brought around a lot of precise joinery opportunities that killed the demand for craftsmen doing it by hand. I’ve seen it in furniture, boat building, and many other things that used to be hand crafted . I started with hand tools myself in the mid 60’s as a young boy, and worked as a carpenter for many many years. I watched the development of all these modern tools we take for granted today.
I sincerely appreciate the skill it takes to do precision work by hand, but it would be stupid for me not to take advantage of modern technology to a certain extent. Taking complex pattern shapes like max is creating and doing these by hand is incredibly time consuming.
Unfortunately , the customers buying custom bows out there don’t really care whether you fit your joints by hand, or have them done on a cnc router. They just want nice clean joinery. The days of “Artistic Flaws” being acceptable are gone.
Being able to send a drawing to a company, have them transfer it to Cad system run CNC laser cutter for precision templates for a pattern sander set up is just too good to pass up. I would be sincerely interested in more info on where I can have this done myself in the future.
I have several riser designs that are too long for my existing footing jigs, and I really need to build a couple more jigs with a more elongated shape, and don’t want to build them by hand. I have other things to do with my time like fishing, and hunting. I have no further interest in testing my skill level building footing jigs. I’ll save that for other projects that will be appreciated more.
Kirk
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Quote from Kirk
"I sincerely appreciate the skill it takes to do precision work by hand, but it would be stupid for me not to take advantage of modern technology to a certain extent. Taking complex pattern shapes like max is creating and doing these by hand is incredibly time consuming."
I needed to learn CAD drawing back in 1990 for the tool and die work I was doing, yes you can draw it by hand on paper like they did before CAD but the CAD drawing was much better finding problems. Check out some of these pictures.
https://www.google.com/search?q=progressive+dies&rlz=1C1GCEA_enUS770US770&sxsrf=ALiCzsbH7TFOgWDDeIlyWK04CMSlQREdVg:1652186985259&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj3mO-S_NT3AhU2DEQIHYoZBy4Q_AUoAnoECAIQBA&biw=1366&bih=625&dpr=1
The little pull tab on your favorite soft drink takes a very complex progression die to make.
I enjoy drawing and figuring out how to make things.
With Nothing on TV, I go to my drawings for fun.
Cutting the plywood and sanding to the lines and the glue up only took about 1 to 1-1/2 hours for each side, (Then go fishing while its drying.) :biglaugh:
I cant tell you how long I spent on the Drawings but guessing a hour or so.
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I made these years ago with a circle attachment for your router base.
It took some time to set up
(https://i.imgur.com/9Kn1697.jpg)
You need a Quality Ruler like this one :thumbsup:
https://www.jimbodetools.com/products/24-inch-starrett-no-4-scale-combination-square-75359
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Back in the early 90's when i first started to cut my teeth on PC use, i got a fully blown Auto Cad III program loaded on my PC for a decent price. At the time i was mainly wanting to do detailed construction drawings. But.... That software was NOT user friendly at all. I worked at it off and on for 6 months trying to get the hang of it before i finally threw in the towel and went back to my drafting board. When i took my drafting classes in 1975 we still used pencils, and THAT i could handle.....
Over the years i have gotten much more computer literate, but i'm still not brave enough to self teach myself auto cad. I learned HTML coding and built my own website with some help from Rob, and have played with some construction software i can get around on ok.... But my hat is off to you on the CAD stuff bro...
Btw... i do have a full set of Starrett rules, combination squares, Center & protractor heads, including the 24" blade. You can't beat the quality IMO.
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The first time I used 1/2 inch plexi which was more expensive. I used some kind of black stuff that was cheaper the last time and worked fine. I would find a shop and talk to them to make a good choice. I only use the plexi/plastic stuff to make my wood templates that I use for shaping. You could use a router to make your working templates I guess, but I used my Robo-sander. Not all that confident with a router.
I also had them make a template that looks just like Max's drawing, where they only cut out the the space for the lamination (mine is a total width of 0.150). Then I can just slap the footing template on a piece of wood, scribe the outside lines, cut between, and have three pieces ready to sand to the lines. I did a build along a long while ago that shows it. It is up above in the Build-along folder.
I'm feeling pretty good about figuring something out that Kirk hasn't already invented! :thumbsup:
Got side tracked there.... I would highly recommend using polycarbonate plastic for jigs instead of plexi glass, or something harder if you like. I wish i could remember what Brandon used on his jigs. Some type laminated plastic and hardboard lay up that is incredibly durable, and sands like a glass finish..... I think Crooked Stick had a few of these made too. Maybe he knows what the stuff is. Here are some photos of the stuff.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/G9aFZ5zwDif8hgqr6
Kirk
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I agree...if you are using them as your shaping template. I only use the laser cut ones to make my shaping template out of plywood.
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Yes Auto Cad is way more than you would ever need and $$$$$$$$$$
In 1989 I bought DRAFTX CAD ULTRA for DOS, It was a very good CAD program, Auto Cad bought DRAFTX in the early 90's, I used it up to a few years ago, My Monitor went out and I could not find any Monitors that would work.
I bought 2 and a circle looked like a ellipse on the screen, Not good.
Now I am using Cadstd Pro v3.7.7 for free.
I have never copied a file to take to a CNC machine to see how accurate it is. :dunno:
Kirk--I remember Machining something like that composite board in your photos and was told not to breath it in back in the 80's.
Cut the plexi and screw it to the bottom of the templates.
(https://i.imgur.com/Dkq5OkG.jpg)
Turned it upside down and pattern sanded it
(https://i.imgur.com/ELGFwej.jpg)
and a few coats of Shellac
(https://i.imgur.com/yDYHqu4.jpg)
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Nice how-to Max. :thumbsup:
Kirk that material in your sample photos looks like Novotext to me, also know as Turbax,Cereron, Resitex or Texolit. Used to buy it by the scrap pound at the Los Alamos salvage yard. Generally amber or orange colored, sorta like ole timey G10.
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:thumbsup:
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I agree...if you are using them as your shaping template. I only use the laser cut ones to make my shaping template out of plywood.
I suppose that would work ok for awhile, but I prefer plexiglass or polycarbonate material is better to run on the bearing of my pattern sander, and it slides on my pattern table nicely. I got introduced to polycarbonate plastic building salmon fishing flashers.
Kirk
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Yeah I get that. I would too if I had a different set up. I need the extra height to get the piece above the rub wheel and onto the sand paper of the robo-sander. It works well for the few I have, or will make.
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Your riser block needs to be about 1/16" thicker than the finished thickness.
I have some Spalted Osage from a 100 year old dead tree behind the bow shop I want to use.
It has a knot on one side and some cracks on the other.
(https://i.imgur.com/7MeNHBJ.jpg)
I mixed up some Devcon 2 ton epoxy with a little Aceton (3 times) to thin it some and poured it in the cracks last week. :thumbsup:
(https://i.imgur.com/hG3LSMZ.jpg)
I've had these Mosaic stripes for 8 years or so, So I'm going to use them.
Wenge, HR Maple and white and black Phenolic.
Padauk lams. All 3 are about .041 or so thick--.125
(https://i.imgur.com/UQFVAfb.jpg)
One last check if the pattern sander is square to the table. :thumbsup:
(https://i.imgur.com/AsuxAGD.jpg)
I used my paper template so I would know where the stripe needs to be, I want to include the Knot hole
The dry run looks good
(https://i.imgur.com/Xf6TJl1.jpg)
All glued up, and wipe the glue off both sides.
(https://i.imgur.com/GFOypIA.jpg)
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Nice job Max... came out looking cool! :clapper: :clapper: :clapper:
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Thank you Kirk
Second strip tomorrow
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Osage is just really hard to beat in a riser.
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Osage is just really hard to beat in a riser.
:thumbsup:
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Osage is just really hard to beat in a riser.
It makes great firewood too…. Kirk
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Noooo
Unless it just scrubby
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I push the riser blank up to the edge sander to flatten one side and then run it threw the thickness sander to sand the other side parallel.
I used my paper Template again to line it up to the first stripe in the middle and each end and used the double sided tape to glue the paper template to the riser block.
(https://i.imgur.com/rhaDKBK.jpg)
I cut between the lines and pattern sanded it.
The maple is on the left on the first stripe so I put the 2nd one on the right.
Dry run looks good.
(https://i.imgur.com/cB1ETwU.jpg)
All glued up
(https://i.imgur.com/W0FSTVh.jpg)
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Noooo
Unless it just scrubby
I cut up about a 1/2 cord of it that had been setting for over 20 years. i did save some for a bit of riser wood, but there was nothing suitable for any staves. Most of this stuff was branch wood that had checked and cracked too much to use.....
Funny thing is... in all these years i've been building bows i can only remember one request for osage and Mac Ebony. Dad burn thing looked like a bumble bee... LOL
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looking good Max! :clapper: :clapper:
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Thanks Kirk
I saw a Osage Glass Recurve with Osage veneers and it looked very good.
So I'm going to build one.
I have some Spalted Osage veneers but they are short, I will need 5 to go from tip to tip for the back and belly.
(https://i.imgur.com/8SRdNcL.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/aggz87o.jpg)
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I'll bet that stuff darkens up under glass a lot. I know the osage darkens a lot in a year or so. look forward to seeing the finished product. Kirk
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Keep it in a bow sock when your not shooting it. :thumbsup:
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This is a great guide Max, outstanding job! Need to make sure this gets added to the build alongs up top.
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:thumbsup:
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I've got a question about your pattern build method. Using epoxy to fill those gaps after shiming them looks like it would work great.
Do you check everything for square first before buttering up the pattern edges? or do you check them afterwards when knocking the boogers off them and sanding the edge? Kirk
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On the edge sander the platen and the small roller are square to the table and I clamped them down on a flat table.
I check one of the plywood patterns for squareness and it looked good before I screw the plexi. to it.
Machinist habit
See all the holes in my table, when I first got the edge sander the table brackets were junk and I wanted my table to be square to the sander.
There is angle iron under there and reinforced brackets to keep it all stable.
(https://i.imgur.com/Dkq5OkG.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/Gvjphzl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/oiklkKw.jpg)
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I was thinking why couldn't you just use 3 lams in your pattern lay up and actually just glue two of them in place as an edge band. It would come out clean and crisp without sanding the epoxy. You think that would work?
The center spacer lam being what ever thickness you like your accent lines. I prefer .050 to.060 and have thinner accent lines.
Kirk
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I was thinking why couldn't you just use 3 lams in your pattern lay up and actually just glue two of them in place as an edge band. It would come out clean and crisp without sanding the epoxy. You think that would work?
The center spacer lam being what ever thickness you like your accent lines. I prefer .050 to.060 and have thinner accent lines.
Kirk
EDITI'm not sanding the epoxy
I'm not understanding you
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(https://i.imgur.com/oiklkKw.jpg)
I like the turnbuckle for adjusting the table, great idea.
Mark
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Thanks Mark
Kirk I think I understand now.
My stripe will be 1/8" in my risers, 2or 3 pieces to = 1/8".
For making the template one 1/8" piece wont clamp very easy so I use two.
Your are saying add 2 more to the stack and glue them to the templates, That could work but some times you don't get a good glue up and you need to do it again. look at Reply #19 page 1
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Not getting a good glue up the first time around is exactly the reason i suggested it. The shape would already be there with no sanding, and you could just fill in the voids from the side if you think it necessary. I doubt it would be much.
I may give your technique a go here in the near future and try the edge band idea while i'm at it... I've got a bunch of vertical grain Natural bamboo i could used for edge banding.
I really should mill all this natural bamboo into lams and sell it. It's the Hiquera vertical grain material. I don't care for the natural white color of this stuff, and only use it for accent lines now and then. Kirk
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Sanded the riser block to 1.5 thick and used some 220 grit on the edge sander to clean up the face. :thumbsup:
(https://i.imgur.com/kfIURjb.jpg)
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I got the bow done except for a finish on it.
Spalted Osage
(https://i.imgur.com/keEsCZR.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/I7ZkM9g.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/2VOEct5.jpg)
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Very nice! I need to take the time to make some jigs. Nice work!
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Nice how-to Max. :thumbsup:
Kirk that material in your sample photos looks like Novotext to me, also know as Turbax,Cereron, Resitex or Texolit. Used to buy it by the scrap pound at the Los Alamos salvage yard. Generally amber or orange colored, sorta like ole timey G10.
"Novotext is a trade name for cotton textile-phenol epoxy resin", sounds like Phenolic but can't find any 3/8" thick or so in small quantities, I have used UHMW in the past for other things, its slick and made for wear resistance but it's kind of high $.
??
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I don’t have a current source for the stuff. Never bought it commercially, only as scrap at Los Alamos. Used it for scales and spacers on knives when I was smithing. Haven’t been to the salvage yard in years. Check your PM later today.
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Max - sent you a PM. Nice riser and how to,
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Max - sent you a PM. Nice riser and how to,
Thanks
I need a bigger piece :thumbsup: