Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: woodchucker on May 16, 2022, 03:46:18 PM
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Of all you folks who shoot 3-under, is your bow tillered for 3-under??
Is it a "custom" or a production model??
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I have old factory bows and customs. As far as I know, none are tillered for 3-under. I switched to 3-under a few years ago. In anything but an ILF bow, tillering for 3-under is pretty much a marketing ploy. If bowyers actually do so, (i.e, build the lower limb a little stiffer.) the secondary market for the bow is theoretically cut in half because it would supposedly be less optimal for shooting split. A simple nock height adjustment is all that's necessary to balance the limbs for shooting 3 under.
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All mine are customs except one. The customs are 3-finger under tillered. The factory one is ILF so I "tiller" it when setting up for 3-fingers under.
Whoops, I have one Thunderbird that I refinished that is not tillered 3-fingers under but I shoot it that way.
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I used to shoot all of my old Bear recurves 3-under, but it was always much noisier than split finger.
I ran my nock point at 5/8" and brace height at 8 1/2" and got great arrow flight....
I just couldn't really quiet it down!! Minimize it, but I still got a loud THUMP!!
When I got my Bear T/D a few years ago and with the D97 string, it was REALLY loud!!!
I switched back to split finger and she's quiet as a church mouse.
Any Ideas??? :help:
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I’m listening here..... this is interesting......
think I’m a split finger shooter til the end, though I did recently move to a tab after shooting a glove since day 1. Really liking the tab shooting split. Tried 3 under several times over the years. Eh :archer2:
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No sir! It’s a Bear SK
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My Kodiak T/D is an A-handle, #1 limbs (56" bow)
Could it be a length issue??? That longer bows are less finicky?? :dunno:
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Custom - tillered for split, I never really noticed a difference in shooting or sound compared to bows I’ve had in the past that were supposedly 3 under.
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Try two under with your index extended straight out along the arrow. That may help.
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Maybe, go higher with my nock point...?? I thought 5/8" was high, but maybe 3/4"? :dunno:
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not sure if your fingers can handle it but I dropped my third finger and shoot 2 under really cleaned up my release and feels a lot better to me than shooting 3 fingers under just cut my tab down to fit my two fingers works like a charm seems to make the tuning a little bit easier to for me anyway. and bow is quiet
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3/4” ain’t uncommon
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I've got a couple old T/D strings around.
I might set up a bare string and play around with a higher nock point.
See if I can get it quieted down? :dunno:
I have always shot with a glove. Little Bear bought me a new one or Father's Day a few years ago.
I have always shot split finger up untill about 2003 when my Little Bear was starting to shoot.
He had a glass kids bow and cut down arrows in a tube quiver, that I put a strap on to convert to a back quiver.
He was 3, lol... He used to get frustrated, when he was pinching the nock and his arrows came off the shelf.
One day, he put all 3 under all on his own, and he's been shooting like that ever since!!
I asked my friend Joe Skipp about it, and he told me to shoot "Apache Style" I had to lower my nock point.
WOW!!! Talk about CRAZY arrow flight!!! I found TradGang and started picking folks brains....
I was told I had to RAISE my nock point, and most suggested about a 5/8" height.
I set my nock height at 5/8" and got great arrow flight, but the bow was NOISY!! With brace height adjustment and silencers, I was able to muffle it quite a bit, but could never get a QUIET bow....
When I got my T/D back in 2015, I immediatly set it up for 3under, and WOW it was LOUD!!!!
So,.. I switched back to split finger, and been shooting that way ever since. :archer:
I'm Retired... I get paid to "play" and have lots of time to shoot!!
My Little Bear is buying a house over in the Catskill Mountains. It has a 7 acre yard!!!
I'm going to move over with him, and be his "caretaker" lmao!! :bigsmyl:
In the words of our departed Brother Ron... "I'm gonna hunt till they throw dirt in my face"
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3-under makes the bow noisier because it puts more unequal stress on the limbs than does split finger. Really no way around it. Can quiet it, but split finger will usually be quieter.
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Kinda what I figured, Jerry!!! Just been thinkin....
(a mind is a terrible thing) :banghead:
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What Jerry said. I have a newer A mag riser and concur with what Woodchucker has found they shoot much louder three under than split.
That been my experience.
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Try using an elevated rest shooting 3 under and raise the arrow nock. That will make a big difference on noise on some bows…..
personally I think tillering for 3 under is an old wives tale. If the limbs are balanced properly, 3 under shooting isn’t going to make any difference unless you are string walking….
Target shooters that set up a light weight bows for string walking typically use ILF bows to adjust for it. With that being said… I have tillered a bit positive for an archer that was using a fixed crawl for point on shooting style for hunting.
Kirk
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Of the 25+ bows that I own not one is tillered for three under and I shoot them all that way. As said before, a small nock point adjustment is all it takes. As far as noise, a good clean release and holding VERY little pressure on the ring finger really helps.
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Over 90% of mine are customs and they are tillered for 3 under.
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Scott,
On your 3under tillered bows, how high is your nock point??
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Hi Woodchucker,
Don't know if this helps, but I'll try
I've only got 3 longbows
All Blackwidow
All tillerd for 3 under
All have a 13/16" nock height
All have double nock points
All shoot only wood arrows
And all only make a dull "thump" when the string is dropped
Best
Lex
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There is a lot of information out there for tuning and set up of a bow, but much of it will leave out some key details that can make all the difference!
As for three under tillering... The only real affect is that it will mike the "correct" nock height setting for said shooter a little lower than for the same bow tillered as split finger. Balancing the limbs can be done by adjusting nock height.
When shooting three under, one should use a nock point under and over the arrow. Video has proven that the arrow will slide down the serving as the string moves forward if the arrow nocks aren't too tight. The arrow will/can then continue it's downward movement and bounce off of the shelf going forward. I see lots of worn out shelf plates.. I'm told when I mention this "but I shoot a lot" ... well, so do I but I never experience shelf wear!
The final resting place of your nock points are determined by several things.. width of your fingers, height of your elbow, bow tillering, arrow diameter, how your hand addresses grip.. I'm sure there are others, but these are the big deciding factors.
Unless you are doing the death grip, there is actually more pressure on the top limb as it has to travel further the farther you move your fingers down the string.
I have only found three under to be noisier in the beginning.. once I got used to it, the noise calmed down.. occasionally after not shooting for a extended period of time, I get a little more noise, but sure it would be the same with split. Even though I like my bows to be quiet, I believe far too much emphasis is given to quieting them down. No animal will ever not hear the bow.. unless they are deaf or the weather is loud enough. Making sure it is not alarming would be a good idea.
I also believe that most of the "three under noise" is coming form improper set up and arrow not clearing the bow.
Most of my nock sets are set at about 7/8" for me.. but then would bet that my fingers are much thicker than the average.
I set the string nocks for customer bows at 3/4" if I know they are three under shooters.
BigJim
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Big Jim. I agree with your observations except for, "Unless you are doing the death grip, there is actually more pressure on the top limb as it has to travel further the farther you move your fingers down the string." Do you mean move your fingers UP the string? Moving one's fingers down creates more string length above the fingers, which will flex the limb less than a shorter string length caused by moving the fingers up, which shortens the string above the fingers.
Looked at from the perspective of the lower limb, moving the fingers up lengthens the string below the hand, thus flexing the limb less. That's why those who tiller specifically for 3-under tiller the lower limb a little stiffer so it will balance with the upper limb even though the lower limb is flexed less.
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I love this site!!!!! You know I feel at this point I've been at this a while ...... and I guess I have, started at 8 and now heading towards 46. If you ask a good question here, better chances than not you are going to get just flooded with the best answers and info from the best most knowledgeable, skilled and experienced folks you could possibly ask for......case in point Jim's post and what Kirk has to tell. If anybody approaches this with an open mind and listens to what these people have to say, there ain't a problem (archery anyhow) you can't get a solution to. I'm always thankful to have this resource :notworthy: Didn't mean to go off on a tangent here, I just really appreciate this sharing of information.....provides a better understand and perspective even, of the big picture ...... in this instance, it happens to be tuning. Heck, I don't now and probably don't ever plan to shoot 3 under .....but that don't matter to me :thumbsup:
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Orion, as you move your fingers up and down the string, the grip pivots in the hand and thus brings the tip associated with the shortest portion of the string closer to full draw and having to travel less.
If you strangle the grip, the bow won't rotate as much and then the limb tip associated with the shortest portion of the string length would have to stress/travel further than normal.
By sliding nock points up/down balances the string and times the limb tips to come back evenly.
BigJim
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Orion, tillering for three under generally means making both top and bottom of equal or zero tiller. Typical tiller has a possitive or weaker top limb.
BigJim
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Hey Jim,
You ever play with string walking set ups or fixed crawl adjustment? I’d be interested in your philosophy on that set up. Kirk
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Well Kirk, I don't.. The way I see it, most guys change with the wind.. or the next well written how to article. That would mean they would have to change bows every time they try something new to them when in reality, they could merely make adjustments to a standard bow.
The only guarantee in life is change. "A" guy can get a "PERFECT" tune.. if something existed for the imperfect archer. If we were truly capable of building the "PERFECT" bow for that person, in two years or two months, or two days, that person makes a change they didn't even know they made and shazam! there is something wrong with their bow!
I quit arguing with guys about the importance of tillering for three under and just do as they ask. That way at least I know how to set up their string and adding the second nock point.
BigJim
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I love your attitude Jim... :biglaugh: That's what makes traditional archery so fun is all the philosophy and different opinions and options on different set ups... I believe i may take your advise about arguing with guys about the importance of 3 under tillering, and just say "Ok" .
Kirk
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Well, Alrighty then!!!
Big Jim just pointed out 2 of my mistakes, and offered a good tip!! :thumbsup: (Thank You, Sir!!)
I have never shot 3under, with a second nocking point??
Also, while I wouldn't consider it a "death grip" I grip the bow pretty good!!
I have one of Big Jim's strings, that I bought as a spare for my Bear T/D
I think I'll set the nock point at 3/4" and add a second, below the arrow, and try that!! :archer2:
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I posted a long diatribe earlier, but did some rethinking and have revised it. Here it is in its entirety.
BJ. I didn't envision the grip pressure causing the dynamic change in limb pressure, but it makes sense.
One other factor that hasn't yet been noted in this discussion is the height of the shelf above the center of the bow, which, in effect, determines the relative length of the top and bottom limbs. Most bowyers place the shelf about 1 1/4-inch above the center of the bow, but some place it as much as 2 inches above the center of the bow. (For some reason, I've been recording these measurements on bows that have passed through my hands for about 30 years.) In the first instance the top limb is longer, in the second instance, the limbs are about equal length.
I point this out only to demonstrate that where the arrow shelf is cut determines where we place our fingers (and bow hand grip) in relation to the center of the bow, which in turn impacts the vertical torque on the limbs and how we adjust to it by adjusting the tiller (on an ILF) or the nock point.
I should note, too, that my records show that most bowyers who cut the arrow shelf 2 inches above the center of the bow, which makes for equal length limbs, tend to make the bows equal our neutral tiller, whereas most who cut the shelf 1 1/4-inch above center, in which the top limb is longer than the lower limb, give their bows a positive tiller.
Having said all of this, I'm still having trouble clearly explaining the string length vs limb flex question. Let's try again. First, if you short string a bow, it will flex the limbs more than the bow braced to its standard brace height. A shorter string will flex the limb more than a longer string. There's no reason this principle shouldn't hold on a half a bow as well.
Since most bowyers place the arrow shelf 1 1/4-inch or so above the center of the bow, the top limb will be longer and the shooters fingers will be above the center of the bow, whether shooting split or 3-under. If the nock point is then moved up further, the string length to the end of the bow becomes shorter, flexing the limb more. The 1/4-inch positive tiller built into the bow weakens the limb just a bit to accommodate the greater flexing to balance it to the lower limb.
By comparison, the bottom limb (and string) is shorter to begin with than the top limb and thus is built a bit stiffer because it will flex less on a bow with with a standard 1/4-inch positive tiller. In this case, moving the nock point and fingers up creates a longer string below the fingers, which one would reason would flex the lower limb even less, requiring even more stiffness. Yet, we know that a neutral or zero tiller works better for 3-under shooting. However, I postulate that the string lengthening that occurs between the lower fingers and lower limb tip in effect also lengthens the lower limb vis-a-vis the upper limb, balancing them out and coming closer to neutral tiller. I.e., because the limb becomes longer, it is flexed less than if it were shorter, which in turn requires a little less stiffness, i.e. neutral tiller.
Keep in mind that all the differences we're talking about here are very small, a half-inch or less. My discussion above tries to indicate the relationships between the variables, but the variables are so small that most folks won't notice them. That's why switching from split to 3-under or vice versa only requires a small change in nock point height.
Anyway, that's my story and I'm sticking to it. Plus, my head hurts. :bigsmyl: :deadhorse:
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I think I git it, Jerry!! :dunno:
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Does it make a difference? In my case absolutely --- bows tillered for split always tune best for me at 3/4". My bows tillered for 3 under end up just under 5/8". Also the bows tillered for 3 under are noticably quieter.
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John, the lower nock height is understandable. The noise factor can only be qualified if you were comparing the bows tillered 3 under with identical models of bows but tillered split.
BigJim
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Ok... Let me run this by you guys...
My normal nock height for split finger is 1/2" to the bottom of the nock point.
I nock my arrow under my nock point, and only use 1
It's 5/8" on my square, to the top of my nock point.
If I nock my arrow above this nock point, then put a 2nd nock point above the arrow nock (1/4")
I would have 2 nock points as BJ suggested. The height to the bottom of the upper nock point would be 7/8"
Is this too high...?? :dunno:
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Could be.. but Could be right. Too many factors to give a "book" answer.
Most of my personal nock heights are about 7/8". Thicker your fingers, higher your nocks.. higher your elbow, higher your nocks and of course other bow factors.
BigJim
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I just might try it, for starters.....
I use brass crimp on nock points, and I crimp them down TIGHT! (Hey, they don't move)
It might be simpler to just add an extra nock point above on an old string, rather than try to remove it and move it. They are a BEAR to get off, and I usually end up buggering up the string serving. :banghead:
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There are exceptions to the rule….. check out the tiller on this bow. :biglaugh:
https://images.app.goo.gl/WPuNsjmXuKizAWxL8
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Woodchucker, I may have missed it but what method do you use to tune your setup?
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Could be.. but Could be right. Too many factors to give a "book" answer.
Most of my personal nock heights are about 7/8". Thicker your fingers, higher your nocks.. higher your elbow, higher your nocks and of course other bow factors.
BigJim
So does a cant affect how high ones nock set might be?
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Gery, Usually split finger, with a single nock point set at 1/2" above the shelf.
In the past, shooting 3under with my old Bear recurves...
Start with a new string, (shoot,stretch,settle) then set a single nock point 5/8" above the shelf.
I have never bare shaft, or paper tuned. :dunno:
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Just went to three under and it's quiet on my Primal Techs but haven't checked tune yet. I will bare shaft but for now arrow flight doesn't appear to have any kick. But split I had a high anchor point and too much ring finger in it so maybe it won't be a lot of difference.
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I went this noise route three under routine on my Bear TD years ago. I junked the factory D-97 string and the noise went away. As for tiller, I have a custom tillered even, I shoot it split finger. I run my ILF’s the same way and have no issues. I can see adjustments being needed for string walking but I don’t string walk or do “ fixed crawl “.
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Years ago.... (1970s)
I wore glasses with big "aviator" style lenses. I always anchored my index finger at the corner of my mouth.
I shot that way with a compound, and when I got back into this "traditional" thing around 2000.
I switched to 3under as a way to get my arrow up under my eye...
In 2015 when I got my Bear T/D I set it up for 3under, and it was LOUD!!!! :o
I dropped my nock point to 1/2" and switched back to split finger.
New glasses, with smaller lenses (and practice!) allowed me to move my anchor up, to my middle finger at the corner of my mouth. I've been shooting that way ever since...
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Tom,
I've been thinking of putting an old endless loop dacron string on her..... :thumbsup:
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Could be.. but Could be right. Too many factors to give a "book" answer.
Most of my personal nock heights are about 7/8". Thicker your fingers, higher your nocks.. higher your elbow, higher your nocks and of course other bow factors.
BigJim
So does a cant affect how high ones nock set might be?
In some cases, yes. But it’s your center shot shelf depth, and the height of the shelf above your hand that can make a difference. Shooting an elevated rest bow that is cut past center and tuned with a stiffer arrow closer to center shot, you need to maintain a vertical bow.
Typically a long bow shot close to the knuckle or say shelf height is 3/4” above center, on a bow cut before, or just to center, you can cant the bow either direction , and even 90 degrees if you want as long as your arrows are tuned correctly and you have decent form…..
The key is maintaining perfect alignment and bending at the waist. Not twisting your hand…..Watch some of Terry Green’s trick shooting videos some time. That guy has amazing form, and can hold alignment doing a back bend. Kirk
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M60. When you chucked the D-97, what did you replace it with? I have a lot of D-97. Satisfied with its performance and durability, but it is noisy, IMO.
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I have both three under tillered and standard. I run all of them very similar. All are quiet as a church mouse and I hear no difference when I have test shot them split. The way Dan Toelke explained the tillering to me was that it didn’t really make a difference until you draw 29 inches or more.
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That is an interesting angle that I never really gave much thought. And string angle is the operative word here.
it makes sense because some bow designs have sharper string angles at full draw than others at longer draw lengths. String angle at full draw definitely makes a difference getting off the string clean, but I never related that to the noise it makes being different. Kirk
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That is an interesting angle that I never really gave much thought. And string angle is the operative word here.
it makes sense because some bow designs have sharper string angles at full draw than others at longer draw lengths. String angle at full draw definitely makes a difference getting off the string clean, but I never related that to the noise it makes being different. Kirk
Dan tillered my bow for three under but also said at 26” draw it wouldn’t matter.
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That is an interesting angle that I never really gave much thought. And string angle is the operative word here.
it makes sense because some bow designs have sharper string angles at full draw than others at longer draw lengths. String angle at full draw definitely makes a difference getting off the string clean, but I never related that to the noise it makes being different. Kirk
Dan tillered my bow for three under but also said at 26” draw it wouldn’t matter.
Dan's a great guy. I met him and his wife at Western States rendezvous a few years ago. He does very nice work, and is very knowledgeable about archery. Kirk
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That is an interesting angle that I never really gave much thought. And string angle is the operative word here.
it makes sense because some bow designs have sharper string angles at full draw than others at longer draw lengths. String angle at full draw definitely makes a difference getting off the string clean, but I never related that to the noise it makes being different. Kirk
Dan tillered my bow for three under but also said at 26” draw it wouldn’t matter.
Dan's a great guy. I met him and his wife at Western States rendezvous a few years ago. He does very nice work, and is very knowledgeable about archery. Kirk
Agreed.
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I find the "string angle" thing interesting!!
I have always liked short bows.... I started shooting 3under with my Kodiak Mag and then 56-58" Grizzlys,
untill I bought my 56" Bear T/D in 2015. I have a couple hybrid longbows, that I used to shoot 3under with no issues. They are 62" and 66"... My son Little Bear, still shoots his 64" Bear Montana longbow 3under. We both draw 28"
Maybe the string angle gets more critical with shorter bows...?? :dunno:
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I think all bows will have a sweet spot to the way you prefer to shoot and usually you can find that with a little bit of experimenting ,once found I leave the science of it someone else.
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Hey Roy chime in on timing the limb to the way it will be shot.
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I shoot all commercial bows with no custom tillering options. I haven't noticed any issues tuning, ,and setting nock points....I also string walk with a split finger tab so will shoot both 3 under and split on the same bow. :dunno: :coffee:
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Chuck, you might give this a go. A well tuned arrow/bow is quieter than a poorly tuned one.
https://www.fenderarchery.com/blogs/archery-info/basic-tuning
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"personally I think tillering for 3 under is an old wives tale. If the limbs are balanced properly, 3 under shooting isn’t going to make any difference unless you are string walking…."
I agree pretty much with Kirk and Jim on tillering. I know Jack Kempf personally and remember asking him to tiller a new order bow for me once for three under. He also said it doesn't make much difference.
I switched to three under 20+ years ago because for whatever reason I started pinching the inside of my index finger on the arrow nock to the point it would blister. Even tho it callused it still hurt.
I was surprised that my accuracy improved w three under as well. I never noticed an increase in noise. I wonder tho, one thing that hasn't been mentioned is arrow weight. I shoot a fairly heavy arrow which I think absorbs some of the noise issue. I am also at 3/4" nock set above center with a tie on nock point above and a crimp nock below w a tiny gap. Jim mentions the video showing the nock of arrow sliding down the string. I think that's why I added a nock point below the arrow. I wonder if that slight "slide" causes some issues?
I normally shoot 50-55# bow weight. (Down from my prime at 75# many years ago). Before nerve issues to my right side and also two torn tendons I was using 660 gr arrows. Now since using a mouth tab to draw and only 40# @ 27" I'm at 550 gr arrow weight. Still the same brace height. Also only a 1/2" string contact w the sewn on tab as about 2 1/2" w fingers.
My physio therapist thinks I should easily be shooting lefty by September. I've noticed a vast improvement in strength and range of motion in only 3 weeks after losing the sling. The surgeon says I won't be shooting right handed anymore. Fine as long as I can shoot.
Good discussion!
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I should add my equipment. Bear B mag riser w #1 limbs. They are marked at 50# but actually 40# for me @ 27".
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Good on you Gun. Keep the fire burning.
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Glad to see you're making progress, Gun!!! Hang in there, Brother!!! :archer2: