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Main Boards => The Bowyer's Bench => Topic started by: longrifle on July 16, 2022, 04:16:04 PM
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Just curious if stabilcore is carbon or not.
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It is a glass weave. At 90 degree. I think it does help but nowhere near as good as a 45/45 carbon twill. The twill on one side so you got to put it outside.
I expect the stablecore would be better 45/45
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Using the same .015 thickness of 45/45 carbon in the core you will be hard pressed to tell the difference between that and stable core, and the stable core is a hell of a lot cheaper.
If you used it on the back and belly THAT is where you see a huge difference. But….good luck using that stuff on the belly side of a limb. It’s a time bomb….Kirk
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I don't know where you can the 45/45 Not finished on on side. And Kirk prolly right about putting it anywhere but the outside.
Black Widow uses it front and belly 6 ply front and 2 ply belly.
I have built several recurves with two ply front and belly that does nothing more than stabilize the limb over .030 glass using same stack. So the 2 ply is .020. So just remove .020 from core or .040 if you use it front and belly.
My daily shooter has may be 1000 arrows so far maybe more.
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I’m trying not to bad mouth using carbon fiber in limbs, but…. It’s very expensive, and inconsistent in strength from one order to the next in small quantities. Now If you spent 10 grand and got a huge supply all laid up at the same time, you will get better consistency. But you cannot sand carbon backed limbs to balance the limbs, or adjust draw weight. You are totally working the width profile for any adjustments. Building custom bows with carbon is a nightmare for a little guy.
Another down side to carbon backed limbs is longevity. They will not take the same abuse that fiberglass will. Fiberglass will splinter a bit if you bang up the edge of a limb. A carbon backed limb goes Boom! You are done.
If you take your time and refine your limb design, you can achieve the same performance a carbon backed bow gives you, and it’s much easier to work with glass.
Kirk
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Kirk the twill carbon is real consistent from Rosewood Shop. Because he has done all the research and supplies Widow with both wood and composites and several other top end. So he has his stuff in order and good to deal with. Now if you just pick carbon from random vendors yeah you gonna have problems. Plenty of carbon ILF limbs out there a long time.
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Good luck with that bro.... I got over the big carbon craze years ago and spent about 10K doing it too. built a LOT of carbon limbs from the same vendors Boing uses. Bottom line is it expensive and isn't necessary.
You guys can have that expensive crap. I'll put my glass bows up against anything you build from carbon on performance and longevity. I've been replacing bows for Border customers for years with very good reviews. They got tired of carbon time bombs and warranty issues.
The only place i'll use carbon is under glass, or in the core, and i charge an extra $100 for it.
Kirk
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I did not know Boing built bows ?
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Carbon fiber has done incredible things for the aerospace industry. But believe it or not, as bowyers our plus or minus strength requirements are much more critical than the aerospace industry. If one batch of carbon turns out stronger than the next it doesn’t matter as long as it exceeds the minimum requirements with wings on a plane or other parts.
To bowyers using this stuff where .010 difference in stack height can make as much as 10 pounds difference in draw weight on a carbon backed limb, you can end up laying up 2-3 sets of limbs to get the right draw weight for a customer.
Just buying fiberglass in small lots, your stack stack height can produce different draw weights. Canadian glass, vs Gordon’s, or Bear paw glass will have different strength.
For companies that build thousands of bows in a mass production fashion. They buy their carbon in large quantities, and just mark the draw weights as they come out of the press and match em up as close as possible. They also use limb designs that are designed for longevity more so than performance.
My point is…. A lot of the guys in here in the Bowyers bench are just garage bowyers doing this as a hobby, and many of them beginners. I just hate seeing them get the impression that using carbon in a limb is necessary, or is needed to help improve their limb design, when it’s not. It’s expensive, and tricky to work with successfully.
I like to help get the beginning bowyers off on the right track and help where I can. This is good sport building bows.
Believe it or not, some of the most talented bowyers I’ve come across. I mean true bowyers… don’t even use glass. These guys I have my hat in my hand for. Another unique bunch of bowyers building horn bows and Asian horse bows are a talented group too.
Enough said…. Kirk
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I agree
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To answer to OP's question, Stabil-Kore is a 107gsm, resin infused, satin weave fiberglass laminate. Its not "proprietary" or a "carbon alternative" as the copy writers would have you believe. They must not be too proud of the product if they won't list the materials used to make it or the performance specs.
Satin weaves are typically used in applications where the fabric needs to drape around complex shapes.
45/45 fabric would be a better choice for lateral stability, but is not made in lighter weights. Its thick.
With carbon, unless you are using a unidirectional, pretensioned laminate, its going to be for cosmetic effect.
Mostly :laugh:
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To answer to OP's question, Stabil-Kore is a 107gsm, resin infused, satin weave fiberglass laminate. Its not "proprietary" or a "carbon alternative" as the copy writers would have you believe. They must not be too proud of the product if they won't list the materials used to make it or the performance specs.
Satin weaves are typically used in applications where the fabric needs to drape around complex shapes.
45/45 fabric would be a better choice for lateral stability, but is not made in lighter weights. Its thick.
With carbon, unless you are using a unidirectional, pretensioned laminate, its going to be for cosmetic effect.
Mostly :laugh:
Well Buggs.... I hate to disagree with you, but you can get a 45/45 prepreg carbon laid up as thin as .012-.013. after finish sanding. The prepreg layers are about .006 + per layer. I have had many custom lay ups done by a couple carbon fiber manufactures with a matrix assemblies using 45/45/uni/45/45 , 45/uni/45 . etc...etc...running from .018 to .036 in thickness. i have tested many different custom lay ups for stability and performance in several different limb designs too. The products i used were referred to as "Bias weave" & "unidirectional". I'm unfamiliar with the term "Satin weave".
You can get only so much knowledge from research brother.... I have built and tested many, many sets of carbon backed and carbon core limbs, and I have a set i've been shooting 10 years too. That is where my knowledge base comes from.
How many sets of carbon backed bow limbs have you built? Test results? torsional deflection specs? Kirk
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I though we were talking about Stabil-Kore, which is glass. You went off on the carbon tangent.
That and you are making some broad assumptions, without any relevant information about my "knowledge base"
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I did not know Boing built bows ?
Yeah they do. Famously noisy at the shot. They go "BOING"....... 😀
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I though we were talking about Stabil-Kore, which is glass. You went off on the carbon tangent.
That and you are making some broad assumptions, without any relevant information about my "knowledge base"
I asked you a simple question.... How many pairs of carbon backed limbs have you built and tested? That question still stands...
There was no tangent... The OP question was Stable core vs Carbon. You were making claims about about carbon in bow limbs that were not correct. a 45/45 Bias weave carbon can be laid up thin and have a huge effect on limb stability, and performance if done properly. Even in the core its stronger than stable core, but as said previously not enough to mitigate the expense IMO.
It's quite obvious you have either studied carbon, are an engineer, or have some experience using carbon fabric in different applications. my bet is you have an engineering back ground. I've been dealing with them my whole life professionally in the construction industry and you have that familiar tone to your posts. it's also quite obvious to me you don't have a lot of experience actually building bows..... Nothing wrong with that either.... but this IS the bowyers bench. Please correct me if i'm wrong here. Kirk
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:laughing: :laughing:
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The OP's question was if Stabil-Kore is carbon based. And all your assumptions are wrong.
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OK master bowyer... I stand corrected, and humbly beg your forgiveness..... but you still haven't answered my question. :dunno:
Sure would like to see a photo gallery of your finished products sometime. Kirk
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No need to be disrespectful and insulting. My ego is not tied up in this topic.
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We all here to learn and share. Some have walked a road that did not work another person may walk the same road with good results.
Nobody likes a know it all so they may think they are.
Just let people know your experience and be nice about it
Some may had a different experience doing the same thing.
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I apologize if i came off a bit testy and sarcastic. but it irritates me a lot when people post 2nd hand information gleaned on the internet as a knowledge base with obviously not much hands on experience in actual bow building.
Let me ask again politely Buggs.... Where does your knowledge base come from, and how many bows have you actually built? I'm not being disrespectful, i just want to know if you can walk the talk. love to see your work sometime ..... Kirk
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Its a little too late for the nice guy facade. And I'm not inclined to entertain specious requests, especially when they are thinly veiled attempts at acquiring degrading information. In the future, if you have a personal issue with myself, or anyone else, you should consider the personal message option, rather than airing it out in the public forums.
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Well I guess that answers that question…. :dunno:
This isn’t personal at all Buggs. Like Mike said earlier. This is a place where we share personal experience in bow building, and associated info regarding materials and their applications. If you have experience working with carbon fiber or other products we use in bow building, that could be helpful to some folks.
But…. Information is only as good as it’s source, and can be misleading to beginning bowyers. If you are a beginner yourself, with a good knowledge base In materials used to build bows. That’s cool…. Just say so. Guys with more building experience can help sort out fact from supposition, speculation, or theory.
I’m done with this thread…. I was just trying to be helpful sharing my experience.
I think we are beating a dead horse now. :deadhorse: My apologies for ruffling your feathers. Kirk
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Guess different folks have ideas of what's personal. Typically when someone belittles or insults another, it's considered personal. I do agree with you that the horse has been beat to death. My feather are fine, but let me apologize for ruffling yours, I obviously struck a nerve and caused a negative reaction. Not sure how, but I will try to avoid any provocation in the future.
I'm surprised this thread has not been censored, negative threads seem to disappear pretty quick around here.
I was rereading the thread to try to see where it went sideways and saw that I had made a statement out of the original context. I mentioned unidirectional carbon, meaning as a bow back, where the discussion was about the materials used in Stabil-Kore, which is not a bow backing material. In the future I will try not to deviate from the original topics to avoid causing any negative responses.