Post by: Buggs on August 19, 2022, 10:58:16 AM
I know ELB's are not very popular. I have not had one for years. Any one piece bows I have made in the past take a nasty set after being well used. But they are fun to shoot! Nothing like watching your entire arrow flight in slow motion, while your limbs are still oscillating like a tuning fork :biglaugh:
Post by: bjansen on August 19, 2022, 12:59:47 PM
I did include my lay up and stack thickness formula on the post, but if I made another one I would use .010 of taper per inch instead of the .008 per inch in my original. I made a barrel tapered lam sled such that I could use full length, unspliced laminations. It was a cool bow...weighed much less than 1 lb in total.
Would love to see one if you make it.
Post by: kennym on August 19, 2022, 02:21:23 PM
I can see the pics but they have the p bucket logo plastered across em.
Post by: bjansen on August 19, 2022, 04:20:07 PM
I stop in on the bowyers bench every now and then to see what is going on and glad to see so many others have not lost that passion! You all are continuing to make some awesome stuff.
Post by: Roy from Pa on August 19, 2022, 04:20:53 PM
Post by: Mad Max on August 19, 2022, 04:45:18 PM
Post by: Buggs on August 19, 2022, 09:36:33 PM
Buggs I'm thinking you been eating too many carrots:)
Funny thing, thats what my Doc said too :laugh:
Hey bjansen, thanks for posting that link :thumbsup: Nice looking laminated ELB. Those specs are very helpful. Any info is helpful when you are experimenting!
I had calculated .009" per inch for a 68-70" bow, from old archery books I have. Of course thats for a stave bow. I was glad to see your take on the taper. Did you decided on the .010 taper because of the tip bend?
Post by: bjansen on August 19, 2022, 10:21:02 PM
Post by: Buggs on August 20, 2022, 10:00:41 AM
I like to try and think of everything that could go wrong before I start a new project. :deadhorse:
Post by: Mad Max on August 20, 2022, 10:04:06 AM
Post by: Buggs on August 20, 2022, 10:32:10 AM
Post by: bjansen on August 20, 2022, 01:26:16 PM
Post by: Buggs on August 20, 2022, 06:14:46 PM
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The advantage of many lams becomes apparent when building a .005" dual taper sled
Post by: Buemaker on August 20, 2022, 06:48:54 PM
Post by: Buemaker on August 20, 2022, 07:02:11 PM
Post by: Buemaker on August 20, 2022, 07:13:33 PM
https://www.tradgang.com/tgsmf/index.php?topic=164696.msg2830300#msg2830300
Post by: Buggs on August 20, 2022, 09:52:53 PM
I slapped a piece of aluminum on top of my shimmed sled and that will suffice for this one project.
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Post by: Mad Max on August 20, 2022, 10:43:36 PM
It's a push threw sander, I push about 1-1/2" in a pull it back out and measure thickness and cut it off, I do this over and over. And like buggs I lay a parallel on top with super thin double sided tape.
I've made several super lam sleds, .002 change in to .005 and so forth like bue said.
Post by: Buggs on August 22, 2022, 05:56:59 PM
I was shooting for .005" per inch taper and got .0048", so no complaints there either.
I figured this piece would be the back.
I knew it was as scrap piece of stained Maple trim, I didn't know it was Tiger stripped!
Might have to rethink my glass selection and go with clear :dunno:
The dark marks in the center are the saw marks from me not wanting to swap out the crosscut blade :knothead:
Post by: Mad Max on August 22, 2022, 06:47:39 PM
Saw marks = character
Post by: Buggs on August 23, 2022, 08:50:17 AM
I think I have decided on the wood combos. It was pretty easy considering I have a small selection of full length lam material. I'm going with the Maple back, a .100" parallel lam of Purpleheart and 2 belly lams of Osage. My Osage is not the best. They were rejects, too narrow and a bit of grain runout. Should be OK, the belly will be trapped and rounded to a small profile.
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Probably don't need the Purpleheart, but purple and yellow(Osage) look awesome together!
Post by: Roy from Pa on August 23, 2022, 04:54:40 PM
Post by: Buggs on August 24, 2022, 10:04:46 AM
I was so pleased how the sled worked out, I decided cut and grind the other lams.
That Maple is really white! I want it to look more like Yew sap wood, so here is a trick to antique just about any wood
(The right side of the scrap is washing soda, the left is the original stain and toner on the wood.)
Sodium carbonate. It reacts with tannin in the wood, even wood with minimal tannin like Maple. I used full concentration on this sample. I don't want it that dark, so I will thin it down about 75%.
I have done this before and know it will not affect the glue line. Still, the carbonate is very alkaline and I do neutralize it before layup. I noticed once when spraying a seal coat of shellac on some chem dyed wood, that the non neutralized carbonate turned the shellac a reddish tone. Actually looked good, but it was not the look I was going for.
Post by: Buggs on August 24, 2022, 09:57:23 PM
The full strength soda on Maple took on a green tone, looks a lot like Tulip Poplar. Not too many green woods in nature and it looks fairly natural.
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I also put some on Purpleheart, Osage and Yew
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The Yew looks like dark Mahogany, the Purpleheart looks like Black Palm and the Osage got crazy bright!
I sanded down the maple to get an idea of the penetration. It was around .015" Not bad for a quick swipe!
Post by: Buggs on August 25, 2022, 11:05:53 AM
My pre-glue prep includes no solvent wipe. I block sand with 80grit, then 120grit and blow it off with clean, dry compressed air. I even put one of those can filters on the blow gun for extra insurance.
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Post by: mmattockx on August 25, 2022, 11:26:33 AM
I decided to goof around with the soda on different woods.
I appreciate all the experimentation you are posting Buggs.
I sanded down the maple to get an idea of the penetration. It was around .015" Not bad for a quick swipe!
I was about to ask about this when I got to the end of your post. That is pretty good penetration but the wipe definitely needs to be done close to final sanding. I may try this on the next bow I do just for something different. The maple looks very cool with that greenish tint. Do you find the washing soda at the grocery store or is it more of a specialty thing?
Mark
Post by: Buggs on August 25, 2022, 11:41:40 AM
You are correct about timing the application, it's water based and will raise the grain slightly. Which is exactly why I checked the depth of penetration. I got this at the dollar store, but I have seen it in many grocery stores.
I use distilled water to mix. Don't know if the minerals in some tap water will affect the color. Our water is very hard, with dissolved calcium and magnesium, so I don't take chances.
It looks almost exactly like the green toned Yellow Poplar. I really like the color
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Post by: Buggs on August 25, 2022, 11:37:03 PM
Its also just fine for glueing up a bow. Visually looks good. Part B had the smell, so I timed how long it took to dissipate the ammonia smell. Less than 5 minutes.
(fume detector)
I know it is a point of much contention, but from experience, I can say epoxy rarely goes "bad"
These are all slow hardeners. They all have some degree of the caustic smell and they are all fine to use
If its not OK to use for a bow, then its not Ok for overlays or any other secondary uses. Throw it away, or send it to me :bigsmyl:
Glue up time, epoxy is catalyzed, the slow clock is ticking. Purple glue.
Pulled the extra glue out after 3hrs at 130deg. It's hard as a rock. I mixed 110grams and had 32grams extra.
It looks like there is enough in the cans for one more bow!
Post by: Roy from Pa on August 26, 2022, 04:58:58 AM
Post by: Mad Max on August 26, 2022, 11:27:38 AM
Something I have thought about doing for years, is making a laminated, glassed ELB. I have not seen an example of one and have been curious if anyone has made one? I can see some challenges in design and aesthetics trying to stay true to the traditional shape and tiller. The glass on the belly side handle area and horn nocks need some thought. As does getting a true D shape without rounding off all the glass.
I know ELB's are not very popular. I have not had one for years. Any one piece bows I have made in the past take a nasty set after being well used. But they are fun to shoot! Nothing like watching your entire arrow flight in slow motion, while your limbs are still oscillating like a tuning fork :biglaugh:
I would use 2 layers of .050 glass on the belly and start rounding over the belly and check the tiller until I got what I wanted, the glass May only be 3/4” or so wide.
That may solve your problems with the tips too :dunno:
Post by: Buggs on August 26, 2022, 04:06:50 PM
(plus shipping) on and then grinding most of it off. I figure on having to do a rounded full depth trapezoid profile, to be able to have enough belly to glass.
There is another option that I have been chewing on.
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Glassing with fiberglass sleeve over the entire bow after rounding the belly into the traditional "D" shape and then grinding off the back and re-laminating with some unidirectional.
Post by: Buggs on August 28, 2022, 12:29:17 PM
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I am also rethinking the grinding of the back and laminating unidirectional on. I might just leave the sleeve intact. It would be like a wound tube with a wood core. The braided tube is the same material a lot of fishing rod blanks are made from. Think about the bend those things can withstand, especially Fly rods whipping back and forth. It would also simplify any extra handle material added on because the sleeve would expand to accommodate.
Has anyone built, or even heard of someone building torsion box limbs?
I put some release tape on to protect the Maple back, which I was thinking was also a good idea to simplify the grinding stage later. I have a little time to change my mind if it’s coming off because I had to order the fiberglass sleeve.
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Of course its transparent green. I like the green Maple!
This could end up being a green, purple and yellow bow
Post by: Kirkll on August 28, 2022, 07:31:44 PM
I’ll be interested in seeing how you tiller this sleeved bow without sanding through the glass. Kirk
Post by: Buggs on August 29, 2022, 08:54:58 AM
Fortunately the sleeve comes in different thickness. The stuff I ordered should wet out to around .010" or so.
Post by: Longcruise on August 29, 2022, 09:23:23 AM
I'm really not sure how heavy this thing will turn out to be! I am following some old ELB measurements for a Lemmonwood bow in old style target weights of 40-45# range. Pretty sure it going to come in a little heaver that that. Tillering is definitely going to be the challenge. There is no way to tiller after its sleeved, so I am going to have to tiller it in its unglassed form. Going be dicey, getting a deep enough bend without blowing up.
Fortunately the sleeve comes in different thickness. The stuff I ordered should wet out to around .010" or so.
Interesting stuff right here 🤔.
One thing that struck me when you mentioned wrapping the whole pre- tillered bow is how that will relate to your description of the glass tube as similar to the finger traps. Will the characteristics of the glass change dimensionally as it is collapsed around the limb? Also, the deep limbs of an ELB will put more tension and compression demand on the glass which in turn might increase draw weight well beyond expectations and also might change the tiller as it stretches and collapses ong the length of the limb.
You are entering a new area of untracked forest. Gonna be entertaining and educational.
Post by: Mad Max on August 29, 2022, 09:32:16 AM
In my tool and Die days the KISS factor (Keep It Simple Stupid) was always the way we built things. :thumbsup:
You would need 2" wide glass more than likely. Just saying
Post by: Kirkll on August 29, 2022, 09:37:32 AM
Years ago I did some experiments with building laminated arrow shafts using poplar, Douglas fir, and hickory. I laid up different combinations with a hickory core . 3 lams in the .200 range, then turned them….. unfortunately the weight and spine differed a lot and I had a tough time getting a matched set. I even tried some bamboo combos with similar results.
Then I tried just using two lams with a glass cloth core. It really stiffened up the shaft a lot in one direction, but these things were impossible to straighten and have them stay straight.
All in all I failed miserably…. But it was a fun endeavor. But seeing these glass and carbon sleeves, it makes me wonder if they could be used on an arrow shaft?
Might make some great fishing arrows.
Kirk
Post by: Buggs on August 29, 2022, 09:45:20 AM
You are entering a new area of untracked forest. Gonna be entertaining and educational.
Thats for sure!. I have never seen reference to anybody doing a sleeve or torsion box style bow. New frontier or big mistake :laugh:
Then again, you could say the same about anything attempted for the first time. Somebody had to take a chance!
The sleeve will definitely change fiber orientation as it compresses and stretched over the bow blank. But the nature of the fibers will mean that in the small diameter sections, it will become denser and more elongated.
I am counting on the consistent tapering to provide a progressive resistance effect.
Mad Max, I was thinking the same thing after your last suggestion. That would reduce the waste and cost.
I'm thinking I really want to do a traditional round belly profile, but that won't allow for flat glass application.
Kirk, you could definitely use the sleeve on arrow shafts. It comes in different diameters, so you would need to calculate the density of the weave and thickness of the sleeve relative to the stiffness of the wood being used.
I'm thinking you would want an extremely light weight wood. If you had a teflon rod, you could just make your own fiberglass or carbon arrows, using the rod as a mandrel. Then again if you had a teflon rod, you would be a superhero and would not need any stinking arrows :saywhat:
Post by: Buggs on September 03, 2022, 10:35:10 AM
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I realized at some point along the way that after tapering the lams, establishing the side profile and rounding the belly, that it was not going to be possible to do much, if any tillering in a traditional manner. So I left the Maple back fat, so I could remove material to get my bends. I have to say it has been fun work so far. It's like working with the perfect stave that requires only rectilinear material removal, no compensating for knots or twists.
Post by: Buggs on September 03, 2022, 04:05:50 PM
(solar collector)
Don't know if this qualifies me to post in the "Primitive" forum or not :dunno: Maybe just rednek.
Decided to build up a small handle area rather than have a fat grip wrap. If I'm shooting off a knuckle, I'll be wearing a glove, so I'm thinking a thinner grip is preferable.
Post by: onetone on September 03, 2022, 10:21:27 PM
Post by: Buggs on September 07, 2022, 09:12:02 AM
I left the Maple back fat to have material to remove. Having pre-tapered the lams, I knew once the side profile and D shape were established, tillering and weight reduction was going to happen on the back, mostly.
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Been taking .040" off at a time. I also can trap the belly side a little bit. I am taking it slow and walking away after every step. Never tillered from the back before! The other funky factor is the floor tillering. This bow is not intended to be drawn in its unbacked state. I am worried about bending it too far and splintering some runout grain.
I'm thinking its around 60# right now. Want to get it down to around 40# or so. I don't know how much draw weight the glass sleeve will add?
Post by: Mad Max on September 07, 2022, 10:07:48 AM
Why can’t you tiller the belly?
A block of wood concave shaped like the belly with sandpaper on it.
I was at the Tennessee classic one year and a guy had a sanding block like that for finishing the tiller.
I hope you hit your weight :thumbsup:
Post by: Kirkll on September 07, 2022, 10:42:30 AM
What kind of backing are you using? Kirk
Post by: Buggs on September 07, 2022, 10:56:39 AM
What kind of backing are you using? Kirk
Short attention span? I'm using fiberglass sleeve.
So I could tiller the belly, but since it's pre-tapered and the bow is unglassed at this point, I would be risking a terminal failure if the belly is reduced to much, as it's being tillered.
The sleeve will certainly add some weight, how much is unknown. Considering the nature of the reinforcement, it should provide consistent and modulated strength along the length of the limbs. Of course this is all speculation if this has never been done before ;)
Post by: Pat B on September 07, 2022, 11:08:12 AM
Post by: Mad Max on September 07, 2022, 11:11:31 AM
I don’t know anything about that kind of bow.
You have a hard challenge for yourself :thumbsup:
I’m having a hard time texting on my phone today, I use my laptop mostly
Post by: Mad Max on September 07, 2022, 11:36:04 AM
That’s for scribing lines?
Post by: Shredd on September 07, 2022, 12:25:07 PM
Just my 2 cents...
In any account I suggest you add at least a 3/16" radius to any corners so that the glass lays flat...
Post by: Buggs on September 07, 2022, 01:11:04 PM
The fancy tool is a fine adjust marking gauge wheel, makes it easy to see and feel when I've removed a tiny bit.
I am trying to accomplish something new and different. Why? Why not! I'm using the F/G sleeve because I could not think of another way to glass the "D" shaped belly. There is a good chance that all those things and more could happen. Only one way to find out. It's kind of fun venturing into the unknown.
My original idea, and one that I might revisit, is to glass with the sleeve, grind off the back portion and reglass with some uni. As of right now there is no established protocol to follow, so everything is on the table!
Post by: Shredd on September 07, 2022, 01:35:44 PM
Post by: Kirkll on September 07, 2022, 02:33:05 PM
What kind of backing are you using? Kirk
Short attention span? I'm using fiberglass sleeve.
So I could tiller the belly, but since it's pre-tapered and the bow is unglassed at this point, I would be risking a terminal failure if the belly is reduced to much, as it's being tillered.
The sleeve will certainly add some weight, how much is unknown. Considering the nature of the reinforcement, it should provide consistent and modulated strength along the length of the limbs. Of course this is all speculation if this has never been done before ;)
Oooops! Guilty as charged with the backing question.
It will be interesting to see your exact weight gain after putting this glass sleeve on it. I think you will be looking at about 30% increase. A 40# bow will become 60#, and your current 60#, a 90#….
Keep us in the loop on this. I’m curious how it goes. Kirk
Post by: Buggs on September 07, 2022, 04:12:43 PM
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Another interesting property of this biaxial sleeve is that it can be effectively pre-tensioned.
Post by: mmattockx on September 07, 2022, 07:20:11 PM
It will be interesting to see your exact weight gain after putting this glass sleeve on it. I think you will be looking at about 30% increase. A 40# bow will become 60#, and your current 60#, a 90#….
Umm, 40# to 60# and 60# to 90# are both 50% increases, not 30%... That aside, I am also interested in seeing what adding the sleeve does to things.
Buggs, what are you using for the resin? Make sure you take some pictures of how the bow core is bending before you add the sleeve and then the same after the sleeve is on.
Mark
Post by: Kirkll on September 07, 2022, 09:45:25 PM
Shredd has a bunch of glass experience that I’ve never dabbled in. His estimate would most likely be much closer than mine. I’ve still got a few sticks of his colored glass he laid up years ago that I’ve never used that I’d be willing to give to to someone that wants to play with it… it’s a wild looking electric green color.
Kirk
Post by: Buggs on September 08, 2022, 09:39:57 AM
Kirk, I am wondering how you came up that 30% figure, not knowing the thickness of the fabric and resulting laminate layer?
Post by: Kirkll on September 08, 2022, 10:28:17 PM
Mark, this is a description of the epoxy I will be using;
Kirk, I am wondering how you came up that 30% figure, not knowing the thickness of the fabric and resulting laminate layer?
My ball park 30% comes from building a lot of glass backed bows. Sanding glass reduces draw weight about 1# for .002 of glass. on a 40# wood bow adding .040 worth of glass would give you an additional 20#.... Plus... this glass runs around the sides too.... It may be more than that....Who knows?
You will find out soon enough... I'll be curios.... Kirk
Post by: Buggs on September 12, 2022, 11:38:46 AM
But since its not traditional ELB, I was thinking non trad tips might not look too funky. I keep seeing pictures of dyed Tagua nuts and really like the colors, so I got some good old Rit dye at the grocery and commenced to experimenting.
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It works real good!
I was wanting a Jade color, but they only had a few color options locally. Rit has a formula chart for all kinds of colors, so I should be able to get close to the green I want. I did a hot dye bath in the mini Crock pot. Soaked for an hour and then added some washing soda to fix the color and let that soak for another hour. Then it got dropped in a bucket of detergent water and soaked over night. Almost no color came out in the final soak.
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Lots of tool marks, no point to polishing it before this. Carved, polished and dyed, I think it could make some cool looking tips.
Post by: Buggs on September 12, 2022, 03:01:24 PM
it’s a wild looking electric green color
You got any close up pics, Kirk?
Post by: Kirkll on September 13, 2022, 01:23:46 PM
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Post by: Mad Max on September 13, 2022, 02:01:39 PM
Here is that green glass Shredd laid up years ago. it's .060 -.065 and seriously heavy in weight. If this is what he was using building bows it's no wonder he was struggling to get 190 FPS out of his testing. I have no use for it myself and would gladly send it to you Buggs.... btw... its 1.5" X 38.5"
Making glass was just something he wanted to do :thumbsup:
He’s been trying to give it away to anyone
Post by: Buggs on September 13, 2022, 02:21:47 PM
I'll give him credit for all the time and effort that it must have took, making that laminate.
Post by: Kirkll on September 13, 2022, 03:56:38 PM
Thanks for the offer Kirk, but I'll pass. Heavy hand laid glass like that has a bad fiber to resin ratio. Slow moving mass. I was mostly curious about the color. You could always do a burn test with it and find the true ratio ;)I could use it on a kids bow for it’s indestructible quality at low draw weight. I’ve had it for years and every time I consider using it, I talk myself out of it.
I'll give him credit for all the time and effort that it must have took, making that laminate.
Kirk
Post by: Buggs on September 14, 2022, 12:57:50 PM
Simple, effective, ingenuity :notworthy:
It's definitely designed for a flat belly bow, it was hard to keep it on the ridge of this round belly ELB.
I came up with a self centering mod.
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If I were going to make more of these style bows, I would figure out something more permanent.
The other mod I would make to the gizmo is a different marking device. Don't like that the distance the pencil protrudes out the bottom changes as the lead wears away. A non-permanent roller ball pen would work, just have to figure out how to adjust it.
Post by: Buggs on September 15, 2022, 06:57:23 PM
Thats as far as I'm drawing it, 19" Scares me every time I do it :scared: I'm not done tillering, but thats as far I'm pulling on it. So it weighs in at 12.5kg@19" I checked another straight limbed bow for comparison, 50#@28" equaled 14kg@19"
Check out my swanky shop floor scale. It's carpeted and it weighs in kilos and Stones!
Post by: Pat B on September 15, 2022, 11:28:49 PM
The bow looks a bit stiff at the inner 1/3 of both limbs. Traditional ELBs have a stiff handle area, out a couple of inches then start bending. The European war bows were tillered to the arc of a circle but at 100#+ they needed the whole bow to share the strain.
Post by: Kirkll on September 15, 2022, 11:56:01 PM
With many bows it's about 3# per inch of pull so you can estimate draw weight out to full draw length. :thumbsup:
The bow looks a bit stiff at the inner 1/3 of both limbs. Traditional ELBs have a stiff handle area, out a couple of inches then start bending. The European war bows were tillered to the arc of a circle but at 100#+ they needed the whole bow to share the strain.
That’s really interesting Pat. Could you tell me what the advantages are for having the limb start bending out a couple inches from the handle rather than the outer portion?
The reason I ask is …..that I spent a lot of time designing different take down limbs and pushing the working portion out further was always beneficial.
I’m sincerely interested in your thoughts on this. Kirk
Post by: Buggs on September 16, 2022, 09:28:10 AM
One thing I do have to consider is that the glass sleeve density will get progressively more pronounced as it is pulled tight down toward the tips. Which makes me think I should tiller with a weaker tip than normal :dunno:
Kirk, Pat will have a better answer than I, but I believe without glass protecting the back and belly, a bow need to be tillered to take advantage of the maximum amount of working limb to distribute the strain. Look at Bue's flight bow as an example.
Post by: Pat B on September 16, 2022, 09:56:07 AM
Post by: mmattockx on September 16, 2022, 10:41:22 AM
That’s really interesting Pat. Could you tell me what the advantages are for having the limb start bending out a couple inches from the handle rather than the outer portion?
The reason I ask is …..that I spent a lot of time designing different take down limbs and pushing the working portion out further was always beneficial.
I’m sincerely interested in your thoughts on this. Kirk
The reason you can't push the bending portion out so far is that ELB's are wood bows and you need as much limb bending as possible to carry the strain. With FG limbs you can concentrate the bend in a much smaller portion of the limb without blowing it up.
Mark
Post by: Roy from Pa on September 16, 2022, 10:45:10 AM
Post by: Kirkll on September 16, 2022, 11:08:36 AM
That’s really interesting Pat. Could you tell me what the advantages are for having the limb start bending out a couple inches from the handle rather than the outer portion?
The reason I ask is …..that I spent a lot of time designing different take down limbs and pushing the working portion out further was always beneficial.
I’m sincerely interested in your thoughts on this. Kirk
The reason you can't push the bending portion out so far is that ELB's are wood bows and you need as much limb bending as possible to carry the strain. With FG limbs you can concentrate the bend in a much smaller portion of the limb without blowing it up.
Mark
That makes sense to me ….. but… in this case Buggs is going to use this fiberglass sleeve. I think having the working limb out further might be beneficial. Maybe not… I have very little experience with these type bows. I was truly curious…. You Never stop learning in this trade…. I’ll be interested in seeing how this plays out.
Kirk
Post by: Kirkll on September 16, 2022, 11:14:39 AM
Kirk, the traditional ELBs were sporting/target bows back in the Victorian times, 1800s. Most were relatively light in draw weight because both women and men participated. I think the stiff handle area made the bows more forgiving and smoother shooting for the general public participating. In those days they were shooting what was known as a York round;a men's round in archery consisting of 72 arrows fired at 100 yards, 48 at 80 yards, and 24 at 60 yards. The women's round weren't as many shots and not as long a distance.
I’ve actually seen the York Round competitions before. I grew up in a town named Sherwood, in western Oregon. Each year at the Robin Hood festival an archery team from England would travel there to compete. It was an awesome archery display. Some of those guys were amazing with those stick bows…. Kirk
Post by: Pat B on September 16, 2022, 11:29:42 AM
Post by: Buggs on September 16, 2022, 11:50:19 AM
The reason you can't push the bending portion out so far is that ELB's are wood bows and you need as much limb bending as possible to carry the strain. With FG limbs you can concentrate the bend in a much smaller portion of the limb without blowing it up.
Mark
Yeah, exactly. I think I said the same thing :thumbsup:
Post by: Kirkll on September 16, 2022, 04:22:01 PM
I Was amazed at seeing one of the ASL designs with a B-55 string get better performance rating using heavier shafts than a fast flight string using lighter shafts….I didn’t believe it until I tested it myself. It kind of blew my preload theory all to smithereenies . I think the momentum of the heavier shaft must have something to do with it…. :dunno: I couldn’t tell ya… Kirk
Post by: Buggs on September 17, 2022, 09:01:26 AM
Post by: Roy from Pa on September 17, 2022, 09:19:29 AM
I made a bow for a guy that chronograph it at 175 fps out of a 53 pound all wood bow.
I thought that was pretty decent.
Post by: Kirkll on September 17, 2022, 02:37:06 PM
Folks diss on slow bows, but hey would you rather get smacked with a baseball going 100mph or a bowling ball going 50mph?
Neither one actually... :biglaugh: Both of them would get the job done nicely and probably be fatal.
Since I only make all wood bows, speed was never a factor in my designs.175 is a pretty flat shooting bow, and at typical hunting yardage would be hard to tell the difference vs 190 fps.
I made a bow for a guy that chronograph it at 175 fps out of a 53 pound all wood bow.
I thought that was pretty decent.
The faster shooting bows hold their flat trajectory longer further down range. For competitive 3D archers shooting unmarked yardage it's a serious advantage, but it comes in real handy hunting in brushy areas too where you are shooting though small windows. Bottom line is hitting your mark. To each his own..... Kirk
Post by: Longcruise on September 17, 2022, 06:03:55 PM
Folks diss on slow bows, but hey would you rather get smacked with a baseball going 100mph or a bowling ball going 50mph?
So, if one were hit by each simultaneously from each side which way would you fall? 🤔
Post by: Roy from Pa on September 17, 2022, 06:40:35 PM
Post by: Roy from Pa on September 18, 2022, 09:19:13 AM
Tapping toes waiting here...
Post by: Buggs on September 18, 2022, 09:39:28 AM
Folks diss on slow bows, but hey would you rather get smacked with a baseball going 100mph or a bowling ball going 50mph?
So, if one were hit by each simultaneously from each side which way would you fall? 🤔
I think thats pretty obvious. A baseball player rarely falls down after being hit by an errant pitch.
How long is this gonna take, Buggys-Boy?
Tapping toes waiting here...
Considering I move like a glacier, I'll probably melt before I get it done :laughing:
Post by: garyschuler on September 18, 2022, 11:18:48 AM
Learned that from a few Bar fights while getting smacked in the head from two sides at the same time.!!!,
Read between the lines and you’ll get the moral of the story. !!!lol
Post by: Buggs on September 22, 2022, 10:14:04 AM
Here it is, Gizmo V2 or the Gizmod; [ You are not allowed to view attachments ]
Its 9/16" wide and the hole is stepped for a very tight friction fit of the marker. The narrow width is so much easier to keep on the spine of the belly and the marker does not wear away and change the depth of indication.
Post by: Roy from Pa on September 22, 2022, 10:50:36 AM
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Post by: Pat B on September 22, 2022, 11:06:49 AM
Post by: Buggs on September 22, 2022, 11:12:06 AM
Post by: Roy from Pa on September 22, 2022, 11:50:06 AM
Post by: Buggs on September 22, 2022, 03:36:54 PM
Post by: Roy from Pa on September 22, 2022, 04:37:08 PM
Post by: Kirkll on September 25, 2022, 12:17:23 PM
Kirk
Post by: Pat B on September 25, 2022, 01:57:02 PM
Post by: Buggs on September 25, 2022, 03:01:09 PM
Why do you guys use those gismos for tillering anyway? Something wrong with yer eyeballs? :dunno:
Kirk
Gizmo, it no lie. Plus it keeps you from getting too rambunctious and removing too much too fast. For me that is a big plus!
Post by: Buggs on December 11, 2022, 10:43:40 AM
This is as far as I dare bend it unglassed
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Thats 6", about brace height. When a quarter turn of the Gizmo marker is the difference between no markings and a continuous line on the limb, the limit has been reached.
I put a little reflex into it at glue up and am pleased to see that it has retained 1/4". Thought that would have pulled out by now. I think the round, fat Osage belly has something to do with that.
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Now I need to sand this blank smooth as glass so I can slip the braided sleeve over without snagging!
Post by: onetone on December 11, 2022, 12:06:42 PM
Post by: Buggs on December 12, 2022, 11:33:19 AM
Post by: onetone on December 12, 2022, 12:03:49 PM
Post by: Buggs on December 13, 2022, 02:42:59 PM
The other thing I have been thinking on, is how to press the epoxy soaked sleeve onto the bow?
I could pull the sleeve real tight and leave it open to the air, but it would have to be on a spit to keep the epoxy from sagging
I have some heat shrink tape which would work, but its 1" wide and there is no way I'm going to spiral wrap 6' of bow with 1/2" overlap. Plus I would still need the spit to spiral wrap.
I also have some antique shrink wrap left over from my wife's retail business, but I could not get it to suck up tight enough before it started to melt. Pallet wrap would probably work, but I cant get a small quantity.
Then I had the light bulb moment!
Heat shrink tube. Its thin wall polyolefin, so epoxy won't stick. It shrinks 2/1 so I need two sizes and unfortunately my supply house only had the 3/4" in stock. Hopefully the 1.5" will be here soon :laughing:
Post by: Kirkll on December 13, 2022, 03:39:08 PM
I’ll be interested to see what kind of draw weight you get out of this thing Buggs…
Id bet she’s going to be seriously heavy.
What kind of draw weight have you got targeted?
Post by: onetone on December 13, 2022, 03:50:59 PM
Post by: Longcruise on December 13, 2022, 04:01:05 PM
A vacuum pump and plastic sleeve comes to mind … but I don’t know if that would work and more tooling would be required. :dunno:
Foodsaver! :biglaugh:
I used it when I was messing around with hex mat. It worked.
Post by: Buggs on December 14, 2022, 11:03:28 AM
Why mess with the epoxy sleeve at all?…. Just use the heat shrink tubing, and call er good! :biglaugh:
I’ll be interested to see what kind of draw weight you get out of this thing Buggs…
Id bet she’s going to be seriously heavy.
What kind of draw weight have you got targeted?
Thats an interesting idea.......But I think the tubing gets too brittle after its shrunk, to have any longevity.
I was thinking a draw weight of 50-60lbs would be nice :dunno: If it turns out heavy, I will give it to someone younger and stronger than me :)
Post by: Buggs on December 14, 2022, 02:40:55 PM
It only goes on by one method, but once its on its like it sucks itself on like a Boa constrictor.
I know it will get squirmy when it's wet out, but dry its like Chinese handcuffs. At this point I am dying to know how this might turn out. Its serious torsion box construction. It could be a beast, but the glass is thin. Wet out it should be around .015"-.020", so hopefully not too stiff. I plan on using the most elastic epoxy I have.
Post by: onetone on December 14, 2022, 08:06:41 PM
Post by: Kirkll on December 14, 2022, 09:44:51 PM
I'm afraid you are going to end up with small voids and an inconsistent pressure doing it any other way. I know you are champing at the bit to do this, but a bit more invested might yield a better product.
Check these out... there is a wide range of small pumps that would work for you...
https://www.amazon.com/s?k=vacuum+pumps+for+laminations&crid=1XFJAE60AWEC4&sprefix=vacuum+pumps+for+laminations%2Caps%2C168&ref=nb_sb_noss_2
Here is some good info and a source for bags....
https://www.fibreglast.com/product/vacuum-bagging-equipment-and-techniques-for-room-temp-applications/learning_center
Post by: Buggs on December 15, 2022, 03:48:20 PM
The one problem is that with a vac bag, the finish surface is the tool, or pattern side. In this case that would be the wood surface, which leaves the bag side a bit ratty. The shrink tube should leave a smooth surface. I really don't want to spend much time sanding on this!
Post by: Buggs on December 17, 2022, 09:55:29 AM
Post by: Kirkll on December 18, 2022, 08:06:40 PM
I'm curious how this baby comes out too. :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Post by: Buggs on December 19, 2022, 10:46:21 AM
Kirk, are you thinking about the vacuum as a tool to extract all the free air? I thought about doing a resin infusion, but some fabrics don't wick very well under vacuum and I don't know about this biaxial sleeve?
Have not found an example of someone doing a infusion
Post by: Buggs on December 22, 2022, 09:55:04 AM
Post by: Roy from Pa on December 22, 2022, 10:27:08 AM
:laughing: :wavey:
Post by: Buggs on December 22, 2022, 03:26:36 PM
-20 isn't bad:)
:laughing: :wavey:
If your a mummy :bigsmyl: Me, I'm composed of 60% water and move like old molasses when it gets this cold
Post by: fujimo on January 10, 2023, 11:39:19 PM
I also ended up speaking to “bjansen”.
He was incredibly helpful.
I built a form and built some bows on it.
I made the form so I can build them either with string follow or with backset.
I built the handle (belly side only) up with a layer of leather so it didn’t impede the working handle, shaped to comfort and then a leather handle wrap.
Horn nocks.
It came in right at around 46#.
This one was built with all yew lams.
It’s not the very fastest bow, but still quite reasonable considering the length (68”ntn) the design and the built in string follow.
I will hunt with it with confidence!
Post by: Roy from Pa on January 11, 2023, 05:53:18 AM
Post by: Buggs on January 11, 2023, 10:56:22 AM
Post by: Kirkll on January 13, 2023, 09:59:54 PM
I'm sorry to hear your are having to keep your brass monkey indoors Buggs.... We have got a Pineapple express series of storms coming out of the south pacific and its 50 degrees and wet here..... Well wet may be an understatement. Down right soggy is more like it.... But the ducks are jazzed, and i can easily keep my shop at 70 degrees without running the ball bearing off my heater.
Looking forward to seeing how this bow comes out with the glass tube.... Yes... I believe that vacuum will pull out the air pockets and infuse the resin into the glass with no voids. i think that is important. Kirk
Post by: Buggs on January 14, 2023, 10:24:45 AM
Post by: Kirkll on January 26, 2023, 11:13:17 AM
When it starts getting that cold, I gather up anything that can freeze and put it in my spray booth and keep the lights on, and don’t bother trying to heat the shop. Fortunately it never lasts too long around here, and we’ll be back to rain again.
Looking forward to seeing how this bow of yours comes out. Hopefully it isn’t a 90# monster bow. Kirk