Trad Gang
Main Boards => The Bowyer's Bench => Topic started by: DesM8 on February 18, 2023, 04:27:28 PM
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A friend knew I was getting into building bows (I just posted my first here not too long ago) and apparently a friend of his was going to cut down some osage along a fence line on his property. He told him I'd probably drive over to WV and cut it down for him, which I just did :goldtooth: I honestly had no idea it had even been planted this far east, I know its definitely not native around here.
I know they're probably not the straightest or most knot free pieces you guys have seen, but how are my chances at some good staves out of this? The one on the right definitely looks better to me... Both are over 6ft. There are actually a couple more trees that look as good or better, but there was a very high chance I'd drop them on the guys fence so I had to leave them for now.
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If you haven't already sealed the ends, you must do that asap.
Use carpenters glue or varnish or something.
Moisture escaping from the ends will cause it to split/check.
They should be sealed as soon as you put the chainsaw down.
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Yep I'm on it, going to mix up some glue/water and do that this evening. Do you think I should split/debark and seal the back ASAP as well?
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Yep I'm on it, going to mix up some glue/water and do that this evening. Do you think I should split/debark and seal the back ASAP as well?
Yes you could do that, it will help it dry faster. But that wood won't be bow ready dry for months.
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I actually just went up and sealed them just now per your advice... I may split them tomorrow or even this evening. I'm prepared to wait! I've got another hickory stave and some eastern red cedar to keep me occupied for the time being. I made a 'hot box' that doesn't get very hot at the moment lol... It has a computer fan circulating fresh air into it, but the beer brewing heaters I put in there aren't able to out-heat the incoming air. Does that sound gentle enough to put these into or should I just let the staves air dry for the time being?
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Splitting them into staves will help them dry better.
Air dry for 4 or 5 months off the ground, then you can help a few dry in a box 80/100 degrees.
Shade and wind is the best way to dry them.
Spray them down with Diesel fuel to keep the bugs out of them, taking the bark off helps keep the bugs out too.
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I've heard of people waiting up to two years before working osage... is this due to it being left in log form? Or just playing it safe? I don't have a moisture meter, but after the 4-5 months and moving the staves to the hotbox, I could weight them every so often and see if they're still loosing moisture I guess? I just don't want to jump the gun and start working them too soon...
I'm fairly suspicious that I didn't let my first hickory stave get dry enough and it took all that set. I know some of this could have been me stressing it too much during tillering, but I did use a scale most of the time and I'm pretty sure I never went over 50lbs or so.
I just don't want to screw these up, so if anyone has any good methods or rules of thumb for dryness let me know! I'd consider buying a meter if there was a reasonably priced one that didn't suck... I do a good bit of woodworking but I've never gotten one and always hated the thought of poking holes in the wood all the time :biglaugh:
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You can prep osage so you can build a bow in a few months. That's not the best way to go though. It's not only just dry wood but wood needs to season for a while to make the best bows.
I'd split the logs in half first then in a couple of weeks split them into staves. Sometimes if you split out staves too soon some may twist or warp. Getting the bark and sapwood off then seal the back is the safest way to store them. If you can't get the bark and sapwood off treat the bark, like Mark suggested, to prevent insect damage. The eggs are already in the bark. If you take the bark off you should also take the sapwood off too. The sapwood will check very quickly once exposed.
It's a lot of work removing bark and sapwood but it's easier while it's fresh. Once it dries it gets tougher. So, have everything you need handy before you get started.
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Awesome info, thank you. I definitely wouldn't have thought to split in half and then wait a bit for the next splitting to help with warping. Definitely a lot of sapwood to remove... I'll bet this stuff is gonna dull the draw knife a lot faster than the eastern red cedar I'm working with right now :biglaugh: I guess since I'll be chasing a ring eventually I could try to do some with a hatchet to speed it up a bit.
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We see this all the time (nothing against you)
Newbie's want to cut there own staves and can't wait (I did it) for them to dry.
Osage stave are high $ now days.
The Tennessee classic is coming up May 5-7 around Nashville, If you bring 5 or 6 staves you may be able to trade for some dry one's and you will have a awesome time too.
I went trough a few stave and turned them in to fire wood and then went to the Classic and learned how to make them and bought 5/6 DRY staves ($35.00 at the time). That will be your best way to get started.
Waiting 1 year or more is best for Osage, You need to have some dry stave to satisfy your desire to build bows and the time will come to make them with the staves you cut and split.
I drive 9 hours ( and a lot of other people too) to go to MoJam in Missouri and 4 hours to go to the Tennessee Classic. Awesome time and people.
There is a lot of Quick dry info on staves on the net but try your best to stay away from quick dry. :thumbsup: :bigsmyl:
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What Pat said :thumbsup:
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I have a bit of a different opinion. I agree with what Pat said. It is a pain in the ass working a dry stave compared to a green one. If you do want to try to speed things up so you can get a bow whittled out, I would take the back down to the finish ring and take the belly down to 3/4” thick or so at the tips and taper to the handle making sure to leave plenty to work with. Try to narrow it down so you have a 1/2” or so to play with on either side. This will speed up drying a lot. Always remember to shellac or seal the back and ends every time you work on it and get it in the hot box. Just my opinion. Having made them both ways, I haven’t seen enough difference in the finished bow to make me want to wait 3 years to work on a stave that’s harder than wood pecker lips and is a PIA to work.
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...and when you take it down to "floor tiller" stage leave the limb tips as wide as the rest of the limb and the handle wide and blocky. You don't need shaped tips or handles to tiller the limbs and once you get to low brace and see how the string tracks then you can "pre" shape both the tips and handle.
Lots of new builders want to shape their handles first thing because I guess they think that's what makes the bow look cool. I would rather have an ugly, well tillered bow than a beautiful poorly tillered bow. A well tillered bow on it's own is a beautiful bow.
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I have a bit of a different opinion. I agree with what Pat said. It is a pain in the ass working a dry stave compared to a green one. If you do want to try to speed things up so you can get a bow whittled out, I would take the back down to the finish ring and take the belly down to 3/4” thick or so at the tips and taper to the handle making sure to leave plenty to work with. Try to narrow it down so you have a 1/2” or so to play with on either side. This will speed up drying a lot. Always remember to shellac or seal the back and ends every time you work on it and get it in the hot box. Just my opinion. Having made them both ways, I haven’t seen enough difference in the finished bow to make me want to wait 3 years to work on a stave that’s harder than wood pecker lips and is a PIA to work.
I agree but don't do all of the staves.
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Thank you all. This kind of civil discussion on these topics is invaluable to me. I've been watching about every bowmaking video I can on youtube recently, and its taught me a ton (enough to get a decent start at least). However, you can only learn so much from one persons experiences translated into a short video for the internet. Getting your hands dirty and actually having a conversation with people that have been doing this for years goes a looong way.
I hope I can get enough good staves out of these to be able to try some both the pre-shaping and also the fully seasoned route. I think I'd lean towards using some of the less optimal staves for the earlier bows, for practice chasing rings and getting a feel for this wood. I'll try to save the best for when I think my skill level is up to the task. I'm in the Blue Ridge area of Va, so there's no shortage of hickory, eastern red cedar, etc to keep me occupied while I wait on these. I see the benefits of getting some of the mass of the wood reduced to speed up drying times. I also know there are other chemical processes goin on in the wood other than just moisture loss, so I get that the extra time for truly 'seasoned' wood will lead to a better end product. When you're making beer/wine/whiskey, sure it'll get you drunk as soon as its fermented... but it sure as hell isn't the same product as when you slow down and let it age and develop properly.
Max, I'm probably 6-7 hours from Nashville, so that could be an option. I'm very close to Roanoke VA, and I just joined the local archery club here... There's an event held there called S.T.A.R (Sherwood Traditional Archery Rendezvous), have you been to, or heard anything about that one?
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If you can make it to the Tenn Classic you'll wonder why you never went before. Even though this shoot is a traditional shoot it also concentrates on wood bow building and shooting. They offer the "Selfbow Challenge" that is you buy a stave(hickory usually) and build a bow over the weekend with the personal help of some of the best wood bow builders around. On Sunday, the participants in the Selfbow Challenge compete against each other for a trophy. We have helped as many as 60 builders over the weekend and they all came out with shootable bows.
During the off hours you can work in the bow shop and there is always someone that will help you with your build.
(https://i.imgur.com/nZZPLS2.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/bwDQY70.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/SOxp9O3.jpg)
One of the many late night bow building scenes...
(https://i.imgur.com/pquCSla.jpg)
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What Pat said :thumbsup:
Lot's of wife's and kids come also, Many things to do for everyone.
Your family will be happy they went. Everyone looks out for the kids.
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DesM8
Hickory likes to be in a dryer climate like out west and really needs to be dry under 10% or it can be sluggish and take set.
If you live at a higher elevation with low humidity you may be ok.
Working on Hickory in the winter would be best to keep the set down.
All new wood I get for Glass bows and self bow I weight them in grams and check on them later until they stop loosing weight. My bow shop is Dehumidified year round and use this chart. My bow room stay's around 70 degrees and 40/45% humidity.
(https://i.imgur.com/5akIsmO.jpg)
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Ideally, hickory preforms better at 5% to 6% M/C where most other bow woods do better between 9% to 11%.
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The Tenn. Classic does look pretty cool, hopefully I can make it out for that. Do a lot of people camp there or do you need to get a hotel?
I did find a chart similar to that one Max, just too late :biglaugh: The humidity here isn't as bad as a lot of Va, since I'm in the mountains. It's still a heck of a lot more humid than out west though (I lived in CO for the past 10 years or so). I've got a whole package of little RH/Temp monitors I got for another project a while back... I've got them all over the place lol... It's usually 40-45% in the house, the garage where I've been working has been in the low 50s this winter. So not horrible, but not ideal either.
I really should have split that hickory, roughed it out and waited some more. It had dried for about a year and a half with the bark on, so it might not have been dry enough. I've built that 'warm windy' box... hot box would be a stretch lol... so I've got the other stave from that in there right now, along with some eastern red cedar that was dead standing. I'll make a new post on the bow I've been working on from the cedar.
Thank you all again for all the help!
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The majority of the folks at the Classic camp. Pappy and the Twin Oaks gang just opened up another camping spot to allow for more camping. Look at my thread on PowWow about the Tenn. Classic. All the info is there and I've been posting pics of past Classics.
I live in the Southern Appalachian Mountains of SW NC so your climate and mine are probably similar with the exception that you probably get colder. Our driest time of year in winter and we get pretty humid in the summer.
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Nice, that's what I was hoping to hear.
Here's the splits btw. The nicer one had the center of the tree off-center, so I split through that to keep the halves equal and to go through the pith... Unfortunately that potentially left me with more side to side bending than back-belly. Hopefully that'll be manageable and I can steam/heat it out if needed. The more wiggly one is definitely going to be a bear with all those branches, we'll see down the road I guess.
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Osage likes heat guns and steam bending, clamp it down while, just over bend it and clamp it down for string alignment.
It will spring back some.
never heat the Back.
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That sure split out nice. Looks like it went nice and straight and has very little twist to it. Osage usually isn't so friendly. I'm not too familiar with your hot box set up, but you shouldn't really need much of a fan unless it gets too hot. FYI when you peel the bark on a green hickory, you will really kick yourself in the rear for ever leaving the bark on one to dry. That is a real pain! You, like everyone else here have learned this lesson the hard way. There just isn't much easy work in self bows. I guess that's what draws us to it. LOL :goldtooth:
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Definitely split nice and straight once I got it going... it was getting the axe head in there to start with that was the pain :biglaugh:
Yea my hot box isn't currently getting much over room temperature lol... I just threw some beer brewing heaters I had in there to see if that'd work instead of light bulbs. If I don't have the fan on, they can get it up a few more degrees... still not that hot though, probably around 80F.
I'll 100% be debarking hickory green next time... I just roughed out another stave from that same hickory I had split... It's IS a pain. I just got it very rough, limbs down to about 3/4" and stuck it in the 'luke-warm box' for now. I figure the extra wind and 10% lower humidity than the garage is better than just leaving it out there. I'm letting the cedar bow chill for a day or two since I heated the crap out of it to align the string, so I needed something else to do :goldtooth:
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That sure split out nice. Looks like it went nice and straight and has very little twist to it. Osage usually isn't so friendly. I'm not too familiar with your hot box set up, but you shouldn't really need much of a fan unless it gets too hot. FYI when you peel the bark on a green hickory, you will really kick yourself in the rear for ever leaving the bark on one to dry. That is a real pain! You, like everyone else here have learned this lesson the hard way. There just isn't much easy work in self bows. I guess that's what draws us to it. LOL :goldtooth:
I've never done it but I hear that cutting Hickory in late fall (winter) when the sap is down and it will pop off with just a little prying. I think all white woods are that way.
PatB will know.
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I prefer harvesting whitewoods(hickory included) in the spring, once the leaves are out. In my way of thinking, in the spring, last years growth ring has time to mature over the winter so I think it is stronger. If you harvest in the late summer or fall you will be using this years new wood. Weather my thinking is correct or not I don't know but harvesting whitewood during the growing season is when the bark slips, making it easier to remove.
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"during the growing season is when the bark slips, making it easier to remove."
:thumbsup: :bigsmyl: