Trad Gang
Main Boards => The Bowyer's Bench => Topic started by: Crooked Stic on February 25, 2023, 12:41:51 PM
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There was some mention of skinny strings on Kennys test bow thread. I have always used more strands because I did not like having the serving area too small and having to build it up with floss or something else.
So if you used say a 10 strand D97 string how do you guys get the serving big enough.I have twisted in extra stands in that area but that kind of a pain to.
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I just insert short piecec of string material until I get the desired diameter when you get the serving on.
You can test by serving a little and check the nock fit.
If you need more, unwrap the serving and put more string inside.
Done this for years to get perfect nock fit.
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They are a PITA , but on bro's bow before the kid bow :goldtooth: he shot last season, his arrows were borderline stiff, so I made him a 6 strand (gasp) D97 and it cured it and may be quieter.
More strands of string is the best way. I figure out how many needed and tie a loop in one end of it and clamp it to the rest of string with a wooden clothespin and serve as always and then cut all hanging strands off later.
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If you use good quality monofilament, not the crappy old brittle stuff that was sold as serving, you can pick the diameter that gets you the desired thickness, depending on the number of strands in your string.
Maybe somebody can clue me in as to the advantage of a skinny string? Seems if you make a skinny string to decrease weight and increase speed and then put 4 pom poms on the string, you have neutralized any weight advantage and increased its wind resistance.
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Advantage— little better performance and “maybe” quieter
Disadvantage— pain in the buttocks to get center serving right
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The skinny no stre stuff usally gonna be quiter less vibration with low stretch. Although I like good manners to go with the quite so speed not a main thing. But if I can use a skinny string and achieve this so be it.
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I find 18 strands Flemish twist of the old BCYX to be a happy medium. .026 serving. Still pretty quiet on my longbows and a good fair amount of speed, better than D97. More expensive but quieter and faster. It's what I love like to use. JF
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Quietest string i ever used was a 12 strand natural flax/linen on a 45# recurve. However, it did break when grandson accidentally dry fired it. 😳
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how do you guys get the serving big enough?
just double or triple it - as described towards the end of this article ............... https://primitive-bows.com/about-strings/ (https://primitive-bows.com/about-strings/)
I'm using 6 strands for bows below 40# / 8 strands between 40-50# / and 14 strands on a 100+# warbow. it's holding together, so why using more of that expensive material?... only slows down the bow....
I'm using 0.018 serving thread. Using D97 a second layer of serving usually is needed for 6 and 8 strands only,.... using the thin bcy452x a second layer is recommended up to 12 strands.
cheers
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That a pretty good article.
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Yes real good article :thumbsup:
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Agreed! Liked it so I read some more of his stuff... Check out this one as well, that guy is doing some crazy stuff!
https://primitive-bows.com/hld-a-new-progressive-design-for-selfbows/
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Agreed! Liked it so I read some more of his stuff... Check out this one as well, that guy is doing some crazy stuff!
https://primitive-bows.com/hld-a-new-progressive-design-for-selfbows/
Yes he is awesome, he has been doing the hollow limb design for a while and he love doing static recurves and side nock.
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Man I’ll bet he made a lot of wood stove kindling getting that hollow bow design down… talk about a nightmare to tiller. :o :o :o I can’t imagine building someone like that that would hold up well….
I don’t care for skinny strings myself… if you build the performance into your limb design, those skinny strings are not needed anyway.
When I played with them years ago, I used to double wrap the center serving with appropriate size serving rather than adding extra string…. Pain in the arse is right…
Kirk
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Man I’ll bet he made a lot of wood stove kindling getting that hollow bow design down… talk about a nightmare to tiller. :o :o :o I can’t imagine building someone like that that would hold up well….
I don’t care for skinny strings myself… if you build the performance into your limb design, those skinny strings are not needed anyway.
When I played with them years ago, I used to double wrap the center serving with appropriate size serving rather than adding extra string…. Pain in the arse is right…
Kirk
I'm pretty sure this was his first Hollow limb bow from a rotting stave, I think while he was removing the rotten core he got the idea. Maybe NOT
https://primitive-bows.com/buildalong-of-a-hld-bow-no-33/
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these hld-bows are awseome. somewhere on my bucket list for sure.
about the strings: why is almost everybody shooting the thicker sort of strings? I must have overlooked something :) Some say they provide better shooting behaviour, better accurracy? Is that so? Just curious.
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I'd love to give the HLD a try in the future as well. Need to get the basics more on lock first though lol...
It seems most strings are made a good bit thicker than they technically need to be, if the only goal is to avoid breakage. With some modern material options you could really make a string thinner than regular household thread... but that wouldn't be very comfortable on your hands to shoot, and would definitely eat up the nocks without a ton of padding in those areas. That's an extreme example obviously. My guess is that stings usually have more strands than 'necessary' due to the fact that its just easier to overbuild the whole thing a little, than to go through the trouble of padding up the loops and fiddling with building up the serving area a ton. A bit of extra material is also providing some long-term durability if some of the strands get damaged. There's also a bit of a look and feel factor as well. I definitely wouldn't like the look of a tiny thread size string on my bow, even if I knew it could handle the stress perfectly well.
Most of the strings made from natural materials are very thick in comparison to 'thick' B55/FF strings. I'd be willing to bet that when people first started transitioning from sinew/natural cordage strings to synthetic strings, they made the synthetic ones even thicker than we do now just because that's what they were used to. There's definitely a happy medium somewhere between look/feel, ease of manufacture, and performance. I'm sure a thiner, padded up string, gives a slight increase in FPS... but my shooting definitely isn't to the point where I'd need it or notice it :biglaugh:
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If the center serving is thinner and somewhat disagreeable to my finger’s preference I double-serve only the top half of the serving with a thinner serving thread. Here’s a picture to illlustrate. (http://)
It’d be interesting to somehow test to see if it positively affects harmonics and sound qualities. Humm…
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I’ve been waiting for it, and someone finally came up with the operative word…..
“Harmonics”….. larger size string with more strands will always have a lower pitch tone, and less audible sound even using string silencers. Those 8 strand skinny strings have a tinny sound compared to a 12-14 strand string….
Durability and adjustability is another reason more strands are typically seen.
Taking 4-5 twists on a 14 strand string to adjust brace, is quite different than an 8 strand string…….
A few things to chew on….. Kirk
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“Harmonics”….. larger size string with more strands will always have a lower pitch tone, and less audible sound even using string silencers. Those 8 strand skinny strings have a tinny sound compared to a 12-14 strand string….
So true, and proven by examining any of the stringed instruments.
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You can use this to build up the arrow nock area.
https://lancasterarchery.com/products/bcy-1200x-serving-saver
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would b55 make a quiet string I am more concerned about noise than speed. I am using 20 strand 8190 now
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would b55 make a quiet string I am more concerned about noise than speed. I am using 20 strand 8190 now
Using dacron string is like putting a rubber band on a modern glass limbed bow. I have no idea what it would sound like, but i dont think youd like what it does to the performance. big difference on some bows...... If you cant get a quiet bow using a D97 or BCY X string with a couple cat whisker silencers, there is something wrong. You may need to play with your brace height a bit until it quiets down. If that don't do it, the limbs are most likely out of balance. .02 cents worth
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You can use this to build up the arrow nock area.
https://lancasterarchery.com/products/bcy-1200x-serving-saver
I forgot to say it's super thin .004
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Advantage— little better performance and “maybe” quieter
Disadvantage— pain in the buttocks to get center serving right
From this response, I read a skinny string is just not worth it then. IF gains are “little better” and “maybe quieter” don’t justify the disadvantage of being a pain to serve. Not sure I get gaining a few extra feet per second doing one thing, skinny string, but tiring on yarn and rubber to quiet it back down.
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You'll just have to try it, I'm still using skinnies...
It let me use a stiffer arrow which is heavier so it probably takes away any speed gain but quiets it too.
Sooo, it's maybe a wash but hunting is my goal so same speed and sound but heavier is an OK deal for me.
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You'll just have to try it, I'm still using skinnies...
It let me use a stiffer arrow which is heavier so it probably takes away any speed gain but quiets it too.
Sooo, it's maybe a wash but hunting is my goal so same speed and sound but heavier is an OK deal for me.
I get your theory, but seriously, does a super skinny string really going to do it as opposed to a plain old, shot in B55 string on a bow that’s tuned to the arrows while hunting game in the range of +/- 20 yards. ALL bows are going to make a noise and within the “normal” trad hunting range the target IS going to hear and jump it, just a fact. The heavy arrow is all that makes sense and a practiced shot placement should be the goal. But hey, what do I know, I just picked up a bow at 62 and have never stared at an animal to shoot at, yet. I will possibly change if I see where a skinny string would have been the diff between me going hungry or feeding me. Not being a smartie pants, just a new archer trying to understand all the things you seasoned guys and gals are doing, but my BS flag (common sense) seems to be on a hair trigger with all the “this is the answer” disinformation out there. Again, please understand my thirst for kbowlege though as I am pretty isolated and am depending on this forum and the inter-web to make very small gains over the long haul. I’ll be worn out before I launch an arrow in a hunting situation., lol. Love this stuff!
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Hey Johnny…. Nothing wrong with your BS meter regarding Internet forum postings. You’ll find a lot of arm chair quarter backs with a better play book out there…
String material used in modern bow strings has come a long way over the years. Same thing with braided fishing line. You could make some incredible bow strings out of the fishing lines we have today and probably save a lot of money on material.
The big thing about fast flight, low stretch string, vs the Dacron material is longevity and stability. A Dacron string has a lot more give to it, and it’s softer material. Even a well shot in Dacron string will still have a bit of give to it. This is why many guys use it on self bows and older bows without reinforced tip overlays that can handle fast flight string.
When I first got into this whole Trad bow thing I built my own Flemish strings for awhile, but it was short lived. Then I built a continuous loop jig and built quite a few of those type strings with much better accuracy in length and consistency. Those type strings don’t require the pre stretch under heavy loads that Flemish twist do to stabilize them in length.
The best thing I ever did was quit messing with string building and found a good string builder that does this professionally, and never looked back.
The string on the bow I just sent you is BCY Mercury. Keep it waxed and it will last a long time, and will not creep or move once you set the brace. I have no idea how many strands it is, but it’s nice material. Kirk
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I don't give any "this is the only way info" , just try it for yourself info and see if it works for you or not. Rock on folks...
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"You could make some incredible bow strings out of the fishing lines we have today and probably save a lot of money on material."
Oh yeah, I've done that! 😀
Also found that some of the heavier salt water stuff is great serving material. 👌
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Hey Johnny…. I forgot to address the performance issue of B 55 and fast flight string. Here’s the deal…. On modern bows that have a decent preload or higher string tension at brace. The performance difference is quite noticeable. The tighter string tension using fast flight string stops the forward motion and momentum of the limbs better without any stretch or bounce.
But there are exceptions to the rule….. There are many ASL long bows built that are pretty much straight , with no reflex before they are strung. Some even have string follow unstrung. With this design you will not see a noticeable difference in arrow speed using fast flight string because there is a much lower string tension at brace that cannot stop the limbs dead, and transfer the energy to the shaft. That, and the tone the string makes with FF string will be higher pitched than B50 or B55. Think of the G string on a guitar vs the E string. Same volume, different tone.
This is very noticeable with lighter draw weight ASL designs using lighter weight arrow shafts. Most guys just increase arrow weight to compensate to get higher KE at impact using momentum. A lot of these guys prefer the Dacron sting too. It also takes some of the kick out of the bow. A lot of them use the Dacron string too because they like the lower tone. Most of these bows kick like a mule though.
Of course once your draw weight gets up over 60# that string tension at brace is naturally going to be higher and stop those limbs easier. So the higher draw weights in this ASL design is going to have improved performance with the same GPP arrows. On a 60-70# ASL bow, fast flight string will definitely increase performance, and hand shock is dramatically lowered.
Your mileage will vary…. Kirk
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Hey Johnny…. I forgot to address the performance issue of B 55 and fast flight string. Here’s the deal…. On modern bows that have a decent preload or higher string tension at brace. The performance difference is quite noticeable. The tighter string tension using fast flight string stops the forward motion and momentum of the limbs better without any stretch or bounce.
But there are exceptions to the rule….. There are many ASL long bows built that are pretty much straight , with no reflex before they are strung. Some even have string follow unstrung. With this design you will not see a noticeable difference in arrow speed using fast flight string because there is a much lower string tension at brace that cannot stop the limbs dead, and transfer the energy to the shaft. That, and the tone the string makes with FF string will be higher pitched than B50 or B55. Think of the G string on a guitar vs the E string. Same volume, different tone.
This is very noticeable with lighter draw weight ASL designs using lighter weight arrow shafts. Most guys just increase arrow weight to compensate to get higher KE at impact using momentum. A lot of these guys prefer the Dacron sting too. It also takes some of the kick out of the bow. A lot of them use the Dacron string too because they like the lower tone. Most of these bows kick like a mule though.
Of course once your draw weight gets up over 60# that string tension at brace is naturally going to be higher and stop those limbs easier. So the higher draw weights in this ASL design is going to have improved performance with the same GPP arrows. On a 60-70# ASL bow, fast flight string will definitely increase performance, and hand shock is dramatically lowered.
Your mileage will vary…. Kirk
I guess, and this just is the pill I have to swallow for now. I just do not have the experience to tell the difference between strings. Again, isolated here, so I am on my own in all things archery, except for forum feedback. I can install a prestretched 55, an shot in 97, and even one of the pricier “skinny” high performing things and all pretty much seems the same. As far as string building, pretty much done with that other than some single loop adjustable s in 55 and 97. Just hard to believe a string and two sticks can make make a man crazy with all the things brought to your attention to think about when shooting. Almost takes the fun out of it. Sometimes it’s good to go and fling some.
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Believe it or not, the less you think about aiming and hitting your mark, the better off you are, and the better you will become in time.
Establishing a repeatable form , a comfortable anchor point, and proper alignment are the 3 key elements to becoming a good archer. After that starts coming together you will start seeing groups of arrows developing instead of shot gun blasts….
The thing to remember is that instinctive shooting isn’t a form of aiming like Gap shooting where you are concentrating on the gap to get the correct elevation. You are concentrating totally on the point of impact where you want that arrow to hit, and letting your subconscious mind set the gap…. Your shooting “Becomes” instinctive. If you think about anything else ….then it starts getting frustrating.
You ever notice those days where everything feels good and your groups are hitting where you want them, then the following day you are all over the place?
9 times out of 10 it’s your form, your anchor , or your alignment is off a bit.
When that happens, go back to those basics Terry showed you. Think about how you are drawing the bow, and concentrate more on that alignment and using your back muscles instead of your arms to hold at full draw…you need to relax as you release that string….
Im a big believer in using your breathing to relax as you come off the string. It’s actually very similar to training for shooting a rifle efficiently. Except instead of squeezing the trigger slowly as you let your breath out, you are relaxing the fingers with the same exact amount of back tension every shot…. Let your subconscious take care of the aiming part, and it will be amazing how good you can become.
Im looking forward to hearing what you think of your new long bow…. Kirk
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Well to build up a skinny string the easiest way is to wrap Teflon tape /plumbers tape around the area you want to serve
I make HP endless and Flemish strings in either skinny or regular diameter and use either 0.21 or 0.24 serving and have no problem fitting any nock