Post by: buckeyebowhunter on August 04, 2023, 07:15:42 PM
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Post by: Mad Max on August 04, 2023, 07:49:44 PM
Looks like it de laminated on you
Post by: Longcruise on August 04, 2023, 08:25:35 PM
Post by: Crooked Stic on August 04, 2023, 08:32:10 PM
Post by: buckeyebowhunter on August 04, 2023, 09:13:14 PM
Post by: buckeyebowhunter on August 04, 2023, 09:13:59 PM
Post by: jrstegner on August 04, 2023, 10:58:02 PM
Post by: Crooked Stic on August 05, 2023, 09:37:39 AM
Post by: jess stuart on August 05, 2023, 09:46:27 AM
Post by: buckeyebowhunter on August 05, 2023, 10:50:12 AM
Post by: Mad Max on August 05, 2023, 01:34:34 PM
here is a template to make one of my riser.
(https://i.imgur.com/yDYHqu4.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/W0FSTVh.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/zO6m3lH.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/pzLhqV1.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/pC1jVGH.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/EHQZNr6.jpg)
Mine is a Ridgid Oscillating Edge Belt / Spindle Sander, I bought the floor display for $100.oo and made this.
(https://i.imgur.com/fFrRWNJ.jpg?2)
(https://i.imgur.com/ob0Jaj9.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/1TX5xWm.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/KDuZ2R9.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/2TWRkqK.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/8ys9YNs.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/eVVDVik.jpg)
Here are the pieces I made when I still had my Machine shop, 1/2" shaft with 2 roll pins and 3 flat's so it wouldn't spin in the drill chuck, a rub collar, 3/4" thick plate 6" wide, hole for a bearing. The 24" long sanding belt works much better than a 2 or 3" spindle sander. spindle sander will clog up fast.
(https://i.imgur.com/cMKl7mH.jpg?1)
Crooked stic made a nice one on his edge sander with a 80" long belt :thumbsup:
Post by: Kirkll on August 05, 2023, 02:18:03 PM
Ever seen a riser fail like this? I'm scratching my head on this one. Bow is over a year old with several hundred arrows through it. The gentleman I built it for said he wasn't even shooting it when this happened, thank God.
Those straight accents are plenty strong enough.... But.... Sanding through them and leaving end grain open on the back side of the bow should never be done without putting overlays on it. I've seen this happen a lot.
Sanding through the belly accent lines isn't as bad, but it could still separate on you if your have too much riser flex..... Depth on the grip should never be less that 1.75" and going less than 4.75" in circumference is pushing your luck on bows over 50#.
There are different grades of action wood out there too. I wont use the standard low density stuff at all myself. I use a product called ChromaPly that is a high density lay up with very thin laminations that the birch they use is fully impregnated. Seriously strong stuff with very little flex at 60# ....
But Anything i build over 55# i use a G-10 I-beam, or a good hardwood I-beam assembly. If you don't like the looks you can off set it though the strike portion of the riser, and still do a footing or straight accents.
check these out.. These both have 3/16" G-10 I beams that are offset
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Post by: buckeyebowhunter on August 05, 2023, 10:30:32 PM
I've seen you post your rigid setup before, that is a slick sander and I thank you for the tips and ideas.
Kirk, thank you for weighing in. I was interested to see your thoughts on my post. I understand the positives of an ibeam. But I don't understand how they can be anymore beneficial on a piece of dymondwood which is pretty much a bunch of mini I beams? I will no longer be using that action wood as an accent stripe, but I've built several bows with that same type of stripe with no issues thus far.
Max and Kirk, beautiful bows by the way. I love seeing your guys' work and hope to make it there someday with my bows.
This has been my first failure, and hopefully the last. I will say that on this particular bow I did sand into my accent stripe. I guess it did not cross my mind that a glue joint could fail from having sanded through it there, but it all makes sense now after hearing your thoughts. I'm glad it happened the way that it did, also the customer was a friend of mine so it worked out well in that sense.
I will chalk it up as a craftsmanship flaw, but I also know that shtuff happens, I've even seen people post pics of machined risers broken, so I know it can happen.
Post by: Kirkll on August 06, 2023, 11:11:12 AM
But I’d highly recommend one of these little sanders for guys just getting into building bows. You can use it for a spindle sander and an edge sander both.
https://www.amazon.com/Ridgid-EB4424-Sander-Oscillating-Edge/dp/B0015B9G0S/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1IXT80J1SHCKC&keywords=ridgid+spindle+sander&qid=1691333694&s=hi&sprefix=ridged+spindle+sander%2Ctools%2C175&sr=1-1
The S shaped footed risers can be very challenging fitting everything by hand. But before I set up a pattern sander bearing on my big edge sander, I got pretty creative with jigs. I even set up a big two hp router and used large straight cutter bits with flush cut bearings to do these footings…. I wouldn’t recommend that rabbit hole after my experience with it… a pattern sander is much more forgiving, and you don’t get tear out like you do using cutters. They are also much safer…
Running a big 2” straight cutter on a shaper or large router is kind of spooky… one slip and it gets ugly real fast. Fortunately I had no such injuries, but have seen others get tangled up in shapers before.., not pretty… :o
It takes time and money to accumulate your shop machinery, and you can easily screw things up with the upgraded tools too. Just faster… lol
Post by: Crooked Stic on August 06, 2023, 04:05:27 PM
Post by: buckeyebowhunter on August 07, 2023, 07:13:30 PM
Kirk I am going to order one of those rigid sanders. I was already on the fence about it.
Post by: sman on August 10, 2023, 08:55:41 AM
https://www.stewmac.com/luthier-tools-and-supplies/tools-by-job/tools-for-sanding/robo-sander-flush-trim-sander/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=shopping&utm_campaign=2023-08-gp&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=&gad=1
Post by: Kirkll on August 10, 2023, 01:27:34 PM
Thank you guys for the replies. I have made several risers that I have shaped very close to the accent stripe. Do you think I should expect them to be compromised at some point as well or do you believe they are okay since I did not go through the stripe. I am contemplating asking people for their risers in order to reinforce them. Some are several years old, My personal bow is like that and is about 65lbs and probably 4 years old with probably thousands of arrows through it. Maybe I'm just gun shy at this point.
Kirk I am going to order one of those rigid sanders. I was already on the fence about it.
I built a lot of bows with those little combo edge sander/spindle sander units. You cant beat the price. Get some 36 grit sanding belts , Zicronium if possible. I can send you a few 36 grit spindles that are 1.5" . if i remember right they have multiple size spindles, and one is 1.5".... The only thing i didn't care for on those things was they ocellate up and down.... i often wondered if i could disconnect that function on one of those.
Doing overlays on those risers you sanded through the accent lines would be good insurance. I'd definitely do it on a 65# bow. Having a riser snap at full draw at that draw weight could put a serious knot on your gord if not injure yourself seriously. Kirk
Post by: Kirkll on August 10, 2023, 01:33:48 PM
if you have a drill press you can get one of these
https://www.stewmac.com/luthier-tools-and-supplies/tools-by-job/tools-for-sanding/robo-sander-flush-trim-sander/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=shopping&utm_campaign=2023-08-gp&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=&gad=1
I wouldn't waste time or money on those things myself. too much flex and they burn through sanding sleeves to quickly. Those drill presses are not designed for that type of pressure either. Especially a cheap drill press. You'll take the bearings out of it pretty quickly. You would need a heavy 18" vertical milling machine to put that kind of lateral pressure on the chuck. The mills use collets too . .02 cents
Post by: buckeyebowhunter on August 10, 2023, 04:56:58 PM
I don't know if I can add overlays to the front of the entire riser without sanding through more of my accent stripe just because of the way I have them rounded over. I'd have to hack off quite a bit just to get them flat to glue the overlay onto. I think I have enough meat in the throat section to get overlays if you think that would add any insurance. If that makes sense.
Here is a pic of my personal riser and you can see where i mean that it is probably too round to sand. It is a 65# bow. It's about 3 years old and no problems thus far.
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Post by: buckeyebowhunter on August 10, 2023, 04:58:19 PM
Post by: buckeyebowhunter on August 11, 2023, 11:50:38 AM
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Post by: Mad Max on August 11, 2023, 01:34:00 PM
The past can tell you what to do, this is a 1961 bear Kodiak special with the white and black overlays on the riser
(https://i.imgur.com/6983VSp.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/M1fG7sd.jpg)
On your next one If you leave it flat on the back the glass overlays can do the job.
Black and white overlays, wood and white again
(https://i.imgur.com/VYvhXcE.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/nPWoNFT.jpg)
Post by: buckeyebowhunter on August 11, 2023, 02:06:37 PM
Post by: Kirkll on August 11, 2023, 09:42:56 PM
Post by: Crooked Stic on August 12, 2023, 10:37:56 AM
Post by: Kirkll on August 12, 2023, 12:07:39 PM
Another thing to consider is any bows over 55# you should give the type of wood you are using, and footing material in mind for strength on those S shaped risers. I recomend using an Ibeam for riser flex on anything over 55#.The radius back risers with full overlays are much stronger and will have less flex to them, as do a one piece with glass running around the back of the riser.
.02 cents worth.... Kirk
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Post by: buckeyebowhunter on August 12, 2023, 12:22:58 PM
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Post by: buckeyebowhunter on August 12, 2023, 12:23:54 PM
Post by: Kirkll on August 13, 2023, 09:13:27 AM
Kirk would you just cap the limb pads with 1/16" phenolic?
That’s what I typically use on my flair shaped risers is linen phenolic 1/16” . Glass doesn’t work well because it splits sometimes. If you were to cap the limb pads with hardwood I’d go 1/8” to 3/16”.
I’ve done a few full S shaped overlays in the past for both looks and strength, but it’s a time consuming process that needs to be done prior to mounting your limbs so it looks right…. Here is an example with a black walnut riser. But this one was 55# so I used an offset G-10 I beam to stiffen it up.
https://goo.gl/photos/mxuQUGwQuUK9GAbq9
Post by: Kirkll on August 13, 2023, 09:34:11 AM
While it does add a bit more mass to the upper section of the riser, and gives it a bit a a built in overdraw capacity, having it overhanging that far back over your thumb can and will put more downward pressure on the throat area and the back portion of the shelf . I’ve seen the back of the shelf split before on this design.
Same thing with the arrow shelf itself. Try to keep that shelf no more than 5/8” wide, and sand a bit more off the edge with fletching bevel.
Here’s what I’m talking about. Look at the edge of the shelf here.
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Post by: buckeyebowhunter on August 13, 2023, 06:10:25 PM
I really like the way you beveled the edge of that shelf. That is something I am going to start incorporating. The pic of the full riser is my personal bow and one of my earlier bows so it is a little rough on the edges. But I have put that bow through a lot and it has held up well so far haha.
Post by: Kirkll on August 13, 2023, 10:44:42 PM
Here’s a little story for you….
When I first started out I had a lot of western curly maple, and black walnut to work with. It grows wild here and was easily obtained, and quite beautiful too.
The problem is…. It’s not seriously strong material and can be brittle at times. The wild grained stuff was unpredictable in strength properties, and even on one piece bows with glass wrapping the back I found that I was getting way too much riser flex just using straight accent lines.
Then I set up footing jigs both radius and flair shaped (S shaped). This increased the strength a bit more, but not enough. So I experimented with I beam construction and it was a game changer. I could not believe how much performance was lost in riser flex alone until I mounted the same limbs on two different risers. I was shocked….less hand shock too.
Going to using G-10 for an I beam was another positive step adding more mass weight to the riser and I as getting zero riser flex… that stuff is stronger than steel.
But,,,, using g-10 has its down side too. Many bowyers do not like it because the MC levels in the wood it’s laminated to have to be perfect. It’s not uncommon for the wood to swell and crack the finish along the G-10 and in some cases even open up a crack…. I’ve had to refinish my share of them…. But I love the stuff.
You cannot match the strength of that material.
Kirk
Post by: buckeyebowhunter on August 14, 2023, 07:16:53 AM
Post by: buckeyebowhunter on August 14, 2023, 07:17:56 AM
Post by: Kirkll on August 14, 2023, 01:35:33 PM
Where are you buying your g-10 Kirk? Also have you ever done a full G-10 riser? I've seen some interesting ones in the army green g10.
Yup....But the full g-10 riser weighs a ton. You could make some pretty skinny risers with it if you wanted though... I buy mine locally at professional plastics in 24" X 48" pieces in both 3/8" and 1/4" thickness, and i only use the black stuff myself. Buying smaller pieces isn't cost effective with shipping for me.
There are many other materials that are similar but have different milling & strength properties. I've used a canvas phenolic material laid up with a hard epoxy resin that was outstanding material that some might consider it it a Micarta .... Here's a description of that for you. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micarta
If you want to geek out on differet types of composites, this is some good material.
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/23311916.2018.1446667
Post by: Kirkll on August 14, 2023, 01:42:37 PM
How is everyone clamping the limb pad caps to risers once the angles are cut?
Very carefully.... :biglaugh:
Personally i mill my limb pads on a vertical mill, then just use a block of wood on top of the cap and use the router bit to push it down flat. I use thick viscosity super glue.
In the past i made a jig with a wedge i tapped into place. Sometimes i just use clamps and wedges . I use masking tape to hold it in place, then clamp it. btw.... I always check for square again after doing those overlays on limb pads.
Post by: buckeyebowhunter on August 14, 2023, 07:58:24 PM
Post by: buckeyebowhunter on August 17, 2023, 03:57:41 PM
Post by: Mad Max on August 17, 2023, 07:53:14 PM
Post by: Crooked Stic on August 18, 2023, 09:13:33 AM
Post by: buckeyebowhunter on August 18, 2023, 09:50:54 AM
Post by: Crooked Stic on August 18, 2023, 09:30:04 PM
Post by: Kirkll on August 20, 2023, 09:13:05 PM
Post by: Crooked Stic on August 20, 2023, 10:21:31 PM
Post by: Mad Max on August 21, 2023, 08:58:37 AM
The other day on FB I questioned a riser glue up in the throat area that had a piece glue front to belly at an angle. That person used a miter hand saw and made two cuts lengthwise he said was about 1/2 behind the throat and glued two pieces of .040 glass in the saw cuts. Kinda a hidden IbeamEDIT I would not do this because it LOOKS if e to customers but could work because full glass on the back :dunno:
Is this it stic?
(https://i.imgur.com/fxmNlmT.jpg)
Post by: Mad Max on August 21, 2023, 09:02:47 AM
I like seeing how other Bowyers build there bows, If you have 23 min. watch this video.
https://www.stalkerstickbows.com/films/v/bow-build
This is from a video from Stalker Stickbows a few years ago.
Table saw, I'm guessing 2 layers of glass for each cut.
(https://i.imgur.com/jKWnTAv.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/6aB3E6R.jpg)
Post by: Longcruise on August 21, 2023, 10:18:46 AM
Post by: buckeyebowhunter on August 21, 2023, 10:39:42 AM
Post by: kennym on August 21, 2023, 11:18:07 AM
Post by: Crooked Stic on August 21, 2023, 11:48:39 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/jOaBjIw.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/EZpNhc4.jpg)
Post by: OldRawhide42 on August 21, 2023, 07:12:00 PM
Post by: Longcruise on August 21, 2023, 08:53:25 PM
That looks like a good way to cut your hand off to me
So, there's "good ways" to do that :biglaugh:
Post by: Crooked Stic on August 21, 2023, 09:26:23 PM
Post by: Kirkll on August 22, 2023, 08:33:40 PM