Trad Gang
Main Boards => The Bowyer's Bench => Topic started by: Pat B on August 20, 2023, 11:01:45 PM
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(https://i.imgur.com/vXd64JP.jpg?1)
got it down to a good back ring
(https://i.imgur.com/qZwFzSA.jpg)
she is a bit short. If all goes well, when done she'll bend through the handle, have recurved tips and sinew backed.
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:thumbsup: Watching
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Well, I shot myself in the foot yesterday. This stave is 46" t/t but was about 1 1/2" thick. Instead of putting it on the bandsaw I decided to see if I could split off a piggyback mainly to reduce the thickness. It wasn't for greed but maybe a bit of laziness. Anyway that's where I screwed up...
(https://i.imgur.com/r5ckrAo.jpg)
The stave was originally 1 3/4" at the widest. After I split it the upper half that was going to be the back, already had a clean back ring came off uneven and probably too thin for what I wanted.
(https://i.imgur.com/k7p6dQo.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/8q1UYcd.jpg)
I may try to do something with it later but now on to this project.
This stave is 1 1/2 at it widest but with lots of irregularities between the 2 limbs. I've marked of the center line and handle and drew marks along each limb 2" apart so I can make both limb profiles similar.
(https://i.imgur.com/waVMZe3.jpg)
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Glad I never screwed up a piece of osage:)
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I have a collection of "oops" staves like that just waiting for "someday". I've had some of them for 25 or 30 years. Nice segway... "NEXT"
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I used the measurements I made previously, 2" intervals along each limb to match the wider limb to the narrower one. Once I reduced the width of the one limb I used a little heat to correct a bend at the end...
(https://i.imgur.com/xAITwNd.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/PVpbeHP.jpg)
After a few hours in the straightening jig I clamped the tip of one limb to the recurve form. I had reduced the last 6" of each tip to a continuous growth ring on the belly.
Even with the oil the belly scorched pretty good before the wood would submit to being bent. I did notice a small crack in the recurve but it looked pretty shallow and I have 5 rings total at each tip. I will work on the other limb tomorrow.
(https://i.imgur.com/RUQtYKK.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/nmRl7dy.jpg)
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:)
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I just took the recurved limb out of the form and put the other limb in the form to straighten the tip. After lunch I'll recurve that other tip.
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What is your philosophy using heat instead of steam for bending those tips? I've always had great luck soaking wood and using steam. i'm curious... Kirk
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Speed, convenience and laziness, Kirk. :bigsmyl:
If I were going to bend big hooks I'd steam or boil but for these slight corrections and small recurves dry heat usually works well.
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Got it.... Risky business that heat bending. But then again you are not introducing moisture into the wood again which could result in more fine tuning... Kirk
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Osage reacts well to dry heat, but boiling/steaming are best for recurve tips. Good stuff :goldtooth:
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Steaming and boiling don't necessarily add moisture. If the M/C is high enough steaming or boiling can force some of that moisture our. Dean Torges talked about this.
I removed the bow from the recurve form then realized this recurve was slightly longer than the other..
(https://i.imgur.com/qmOzqgG.jpg)
...so I put the first limb back in the form and reheated it.
(https://i.imgur.com/P5Vha1N.jpg)
Later I removed it and and here is what she looks like now...
(https://i.imgur.com/Hw1mMnc.jpg)
and as you can see a bit more tip alignment is needed...
(https://i.imgur.com/ybDsns3.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/X7YOmQw.jpg)
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Another observation that has left me scratching my head is how thick those tips are that you guys are bending…. Why not taper the tips a bit before bending them? Seems like it would be much easier to do… :dunno: :dunno:
Kirk
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Kirk, they are a bit thick but I've taken the belly side down to one ring at the tips. Even though both recurves cracked across the belly from the drying of the heat the cracks only went down one ring and I will reduce that thickness, eliminating the cracks. All of that will come later when I do the final shaping on the tips.
I've reduced the limb thickness and now she's starting to bend at floor tiller. Reduced the handle thickness and did a preliminary shaping of the handle. I'll fine tune that later. I've also put her in the reflex form and am straightening one limb and an initial tip alignment. I'll add more pics later.
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(https://i.imgur.com/QOF9k6A.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/1BkaH96.jpg)
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this is the first limb after removing it from the form...
(https://i.imgur.com/yxNgcN6.jpg)
Here are the pics of the other limb. This limb was relatively straight. I only had to get the tip aligned...
(https://i.imgur.com/6Gl2Qn5.jpg)
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After straightening out the tips...
(https://i.imgur.com/C7kjgl1.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/qcLahWD.jpg)
I did a bit more on this limb to get the mid limb in line.
Here is a profile shot after the straightening session...
(https://i.imgur.com/5aEcEWl.jpg)
...next...on a short long string here she is at 13"(45#)...
(https://i.imgur.com/TlHw6ab.jpg)
..the right limb has a hoopti-doo about 4" out from the handle giving a visible appearance of a hinge.
...next pic at 16"(47#)
(https://i.imgur.com/yYxBYhW.jpg)
...as you can see I still need to get both limbs bending evenly and together but I still have about 16# to reduce.
I'm shooting for 45#@23-25#. She will be sinew backed so I think I can possibly get to 25".I'm shooting for 45#@23-25#. She will be sinew backed so I think I can possibly get to 25".
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Doesn’t adding the snew backing increase the draw weight and throw your tiller off? Seems to me it would be better to get that backing on the bow BEFORE you fine tune the tiller… am I missing something here? Kirk
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You are right, Kirk it will add weight and can throw the tiller off. I'm still trying to get both limbs bending evenly and together. I still have about 18# to loose so I still have plenty of time to do a little work before adding the sinew. Once the sinew is on there is no heat correction.
Adding sinew will add weight. It depends on how much sinew is added of course. Once it's on and has plenty of time to cure out then I'll re-visit the tillering process and weight reduction.
Some folks add sinew early on in the process, some after tillering is done. I like to get the limbs bending evenly and together before I add the sinew. So far that has worked best for me.
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As always --Nice work Pat :thumbsup:
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Thanks, Mark. This is my shortest bow to date and I'm wondering if I can in fact get a 25" draw on this 46"t/t bow with a sinew back. It is a pretty clean stave with only a few pin knots.
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That’s great Pat I really enjoy watching your bows come to life . Well done :notworthy:
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Make it bend in the handle more that you usually do.
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Thanks guys.
Mark, I have thinned the handle area and will bring the bend into the handle after I get the limbs bending well.
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Thanks, Mark. This is my shortest bow to date and I'm wondering if I can in fact get a 25" draw on this 46"t/t bow with a sinew back. It is a pretty clean stave with only a few pin knots.
Have you ever used silk backing before Pat? I've used it under clear glass a few times just for looks and that stuff increased the draw weight more than i thought it would. just curios... Kirk
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About 1/16" to 1/8" horn on the belly would be awesome. :jumper:
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Kirk, I have used silk. It doesn't stretch very much. I actually had an osage bow fret all along the belly that had a silk back. Don't know if it were me or the silk. :dunno:
Mark, I have a set of buff horn in my basement frig but I was gonna save them for a Asiatic horn bow...if I ever make one. :bigsmyl:
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I got her to low brace this morning and the string tracks to the off side on the upper limb so I have her on a form to straighten out that limb. Once I'm sure that everything lines up I'll start prepping to add the sinew. I still have 20# or so to loose and she is still holding some reflex. I'll pull her into a few more inches of reflex then add the sinew.
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sinew has started...
(https://i.imgur.com/7rfRdwY.jpg)
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:thumbsup:
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sinew has started...
(https://i.imgur.com/7rfRdwY.jpg)
Pat is the sinew rehydrated with water, and then applied to the back of the bow ?
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Yes rehydrated
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Bryan, I rehydrate the sinew in warm water as I'm prepping the bow. Then I squeegee of the excess water before I dip it into the warm hide glue. I again squeegee the excess hide glue off the sinew before applying it to the back of the bow. Before adding the sinew I wash the back of the bow with Dawn dish soap to degrease it than rinse with boiling water and while the back is still wet I size the back of the bow with a few coats of hide glue so it soaks into the wood.
I'll be adding another layer of sinew today then I'll wait until it dries enough to see if any areas need more sinew. After that it's a waiting game for the sinew and bow wood to completely dry.
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"Pat I'll wait until it dries enough to see if any areas need more sinew"
If it needs more in areas, show a side view of what it looks like before and after please.???
:clapper:
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Bryan, I rehydrate the sinew in warm water as I'm prepping the bow. Then I squeegee of the excess water before I dip it into the warm hide glue. I again squeegee the excess hide glue off the sinew before applying it to the back of the bow. Before adding the sinew I wash the back of the bow with Dawn dish soap to degrease it than rinse with boiling water and while the back is still wet I size the back of the bow with a few coats of hide glue so it soaks into the wood.
I'll be adding another layer of sinew today then I'll wait until it dries enough to see if any areas need more sinew. After that it's a waiting game for the sinew and bow wood to completely dry.
Thank you Pat , very interesting indeed. :thumbsup:
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Any time, Bryan.
Mark, I filled in the voids today with sinew and have the bow in the basement with a dehumidifier going. I'll check it in a few days to see how well it is drying and if I need more sinew. I'll take a few pics then.
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:thumbsup:
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Picking up on this thread: is all the above true if BACKING WITH RAWHIDE?
Can I I add snakeskins on top of rawhide?
Thanks for any advice.
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Gary, yes even to washing the bow and rawhide with Dawn. I use boiling water to rinse the bow but just use warm water for the rawhide. And, yes you can add snake skins over rawhide. I like using hide glue for rawhide and snake skins. I would let the the rawhide dry and trimmed before adding the snake skin.
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But, can I also use Titebond 1 or 2?
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Yes you can. I'd use the TBII because it's the stronger of the two and is water resistant. The TBII will be dry in 24 hours but you still have to consider the moisture from the glue going into the wood so give it at least 2 to 3 days before straining the bow.
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Mark, these are the only pics I have of before and after...
(https://i.imgur.com/7rfRdwY.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/IbDMBDo.jpg)
here are a few other pics of the sinew this morning...
(https://i.imgur.com/7zrdTyI.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/JgbqdtI.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/ZAxBIe7.jpg)
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Mark, when the sinew first goes down it's about 1/8" thick and after it dries it is below 1/16" thick. Hope that answers your question. :dunno:
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"Pat I'll wait until it dries enough to see if any areas need more sinew"
I was think that the tiller would be off so you would add more in that area. ??
But after it dry's you are just filling in where there are voids??
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Yeah, Mark, I filled in the voids then added a little extra full length pieces where I thought it was needed.
The tiller will be off and the bow will be way heavy so I'll have a good bit or reducing and retillering after the sinew has dried completely. Getting this 46" bow to achieve a 25" draw will be a trick by itself. It can be done but whether or not I can do it is another story. :dunno:
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You can do it.
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Thanks for the thread Pat.
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No problem, Joel. Here is a full length pic in the form just letting the sinew dry...
(https://i.imgur.com/H9ALc1v.jpg)
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I released the bow from her form this morning. She's been in the dry(dehumidified)basement since Sept. 11. Once I removed the screw that held her to the form she only relaxed a little, just a little over 1/2"...
(https://i.imgur.com/TxSHVUz.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/SWf5d0W.jpg)
I braced her and put her on the tree so see how the tiller was affected by the sinew. The string is tight to the belly here in this pic...
(https://i.imgur.com/Krx9OY6.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/7f1C6CZ.jpg)
...as you can see she needed a little off the left(top) limb. I did a bit more scraping then checked the draw weight. She's pulling 46#@16" so that works out to 73#@25". I need to bring the bend of the right limb(bottom) back into the handle and work on the left limb a bit. I still have plenty of weight to loose.
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Pretty cool, Pat. Thanks for sharing!
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Pretty cool, Pat. Thanks for sharing!
X2
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Thanks, Damon and Mark. It's been a fun project so far and I'm looking forward to getting her to a shootable stage. Shooting this bow will be another steep learning curve as short as it is. :dunno:
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I did a bit more on her today. In the braced pic shown below she's braced at just over 5". In this full draw pic she's at 23" and is pulling about 56# so I still have at least 10# to reduce. I'll keep her braced for a few hours and try to sweat her down a little before going back to scraping. I still need to come back into the handle some more with the bend. Here are the pics as of now...
(https://i.imgur.com/6w8key4.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/ZUcmieQ.jpg)
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Coming along nice :bigsmyl:
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Thanks, Mark. I still have about 10# to loose.I'll do a little more tomorrow.
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I've been working to get the weight down and adjusting the tiller a bit more. She's now at 46#@23". I put a couple of dozen arrows through her yesterday and she shoots well but is she difficult to shoot. The short length of the bow and the shorter draw with no real anchor point makes it hard to shoot her accurately. I found the same thing when I started making 60" highly stressed recurves but continually thoughtful shooting made the shooting more natural and I'm sure it will be the same with this bow.
Anyway, I decided to dress her up a bit by adding snake skins. This is from a roadkill black snake Clint gave me a few years ago. I used hide glue for this. I'll post more after Do some finishing touches...
(https://i.imgur.com/dYnNXmj.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/OrFsUMJ.jpg)
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Cool Pat
The Classic will be here before you know it, bring it with you. :)
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She'll definitely be with me at the Classic, Mark. :thumbsup:
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Hi Pat.
I always admire your work and way of performing.
this one is not a surprise as like the others.
best.
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Thanks, Beyaz. Haven't seen you around much lately. Hope all is well with you and your ingenious bow building. :thumbsup:
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Finally get her finished and a braced and full draw pic. for your viewing pleasure. She is 46" t/t and pulls 46#@23", sinew backed with 2 layers of Norwegian moose sinew and a road killed black racer skin covering. I added a Floppy rest and the handle is wrapped with hemp cord saturated with Massey finish with a thin coat of TBIII. She has 5 coats of Tru-Oil and 2 coats of satin varnish. I don't do it normally but she has pin nocks with no overlays. 14 strands of B-55 with a string loop on top and bowyers knot on the bottom limb and mink string silencers from my Mom's old mink stole. Not sure how long my draw is in the pic but it is about maxed out for me.
(https://i.imgur.com/mCPUWAO.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/WckWVse.jpg)
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Looking goood Pat.
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:bigsmyl: :clapper:
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:thumbsup:
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Thanks guys. I usually don't use pin nocks but for this bow I thought it was appropriate. Also, you'll see I used a string loop for the top limb and a bowyers knot for the bottom. I do this on all my bows and have for years. Here's a few more detail pics...
(https://i.imgur.com/OPY0t65.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/lawEEWs.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/bsBXFs3.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/3nwxTU5.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/VRtqjE4.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/YFsHddz.jpg)
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So what exactly do you do with a bow that only draws 23" Pat? She's too stout for a kid or most female archers.... I suppose it could be used as a horse bow with the short length.... I'm just curious.... Kirk
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Kirk, this is the shortest bow I've built and it's not easy for me to shoot well. Once I make up some arrows for it I will try to improve my shooting with it. I do know guys that hunt with these short bows and successfully harvest deer and elk with them. It would make a good bow for a ground blind. At 46#@23" it could shoot a 500gr. arrow pretty well at close range.
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Turkey hunting on the ground for sure.
I made a 42" bow 40#@18" from Osage. Indian bow
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Yeah, Mark, turkeys too. It would also work well for a horse bow.
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I don't think i could shoot a 23" draw consistently considering my regular anchor point hits 30" draw... but i suppose it's like anything... with enough practice you could become proficient at close yardage. She sure came out looking cool. :thumbsup:
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Thanks, Kirk. Like I said I'm having trouble shooting this short bow and mainly because there is no definite anchor point but also it took me a while to learn to shoot my shorter, 56" to 60", static recurves and I could hit a solid anchor point with them. For me at least, after shooting straight limb bows or bows with a slight reflexed tip for so many years the switch over to the recurves had a steep learning curve.
My first trad bow was a recurve. I shot it pretty well but once I got my slight r/d Treadway longbow in 1998 my shooting improved immensely while other folks told me that a recurve was easier to shoot than a longbow. :dunno: To each his own, I guess.
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Ya... That's what makes archery so interesting is all the different philosophy. You can take most of it with a grain of salt if you ask me...
Its all really just a personal preference thing. Every bow you shoot has different characteristics to it that either makes it appealing or not. I believe a good experienced archer can pick up most any bow and become pretty accurate with in a very short period of time, but it's really tough to do that without being able to establish a solid anchor point for me.
The old recurve vs long bow thing has been around for ever.....Both can be deadly accurate, but the feel of the draw, and the balance of the bows are quite different. But the way the bow fits in your hand, the grip shape, and pressure point applied to the grip makes a huge difference between these two types of bows.
The old school straight grip, dish, and slight locator grips you see commonly on ASL, string follow, and slight r/d long bows all have one thing in common, and that's a slightly lower pressure point on the grip with a more hand contact on the riser, and are often seen shot with a cant that matches your natural wrist rotation from 1-2 o-clock angle, even when standing vertical. The draw cycle on these long bows are typically lower pre load and come back effortlessly the first part of the draw cycle and steadily increase with the draw to anchor. This effortless feel of the low weight early in draw cycle, in an ultra light mass weight bow is highly coveted by many, but has the disadvantage of excessive hand shock, and loss of performance in draw weights less than 60#. Once you start getting into 70-80# draw weights and higher, these bows can perform really well with heavy arrows and have much less hand shock.
Another thing seen commonly on these long bows is the arrow shelf is rarely seen cut past center, and on some of them, no shelf cut out at all. With these type bows the arrow is tuned to flex around the riser, and gripping or torque on the riser has less effect on the arrow shaft.
Then you have the high performance R/D long bows.... These have much higher preload at brace height and have a lot more early draw weight in the draw cycle. These Hi-pro long bows can meet or even beat the best recurve performance out there if designed right and balanced perfectly.
The recurve bows typically have a sculptured hand grip with a slight wrist rotation angle built into them, and are designed to shoot with a higher pressure point on the grip and higher wrist angle putting most of the pressure to the grip just in the web of your hand, and thumb pad only. These type risers are commonly shot with an open hand, or very little finger pressure at all. When training for target shooting it's always pointed out to never "Grip" the bow, but draw with an open hand, and just relax your fingers. Never applying any torque to the grip.
Some of the RC bow design's often have a deeper past center cut riser that allows a closer to-center shot capasity with stiffer arrows and less sensitive to exact arrow spine tuning. These are commonly shot with the bow in a vertical position, although can bet shot at a cant by bending at the waste with proper full draw alignment at full draw.
The pros of the recurve design is higher performance with a shorter over all bow length.But A high performance static tip RC design typically has much higher string tension or preload at brace, and the early weight in the draw cycle is very noticable. A straight long bow with low preload will only have 2-3# per inch weight in the first few inches of the draw, where a hi-pro, high pre load bow will have as much as 6-7# per inch in the exact same 50# draw weight . But.... After the initial few heavy inches, the pounds per inch drop way off creating a let-off feeling in the draw cycle that is very desirable to many. If the RC limb design is good, it can be drawn much further without it stacking up with less PPI at the tail end of the draw ,and give you a much better string angle to help get off the string cleaner...
A lot of this stuff most of you guys already know.... Sorry for getting long winded here.....
Bottom line is there are a lot of different bow designs that all have their own feel. Once you find one that fits your preferences, your accuracy will excel. It's the archer that makes the bow perform well, and all of them can get er done.... Kirk
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Thanks, Beyaz. Haven't seen you around much lately. Hope all is well with you and your ingenious bow building. :thumbsup:
hi Pat.
I was very busy with some issues for a looooonnggg time. I am itching to fire bow building up again. lately I am trying to build a man cave for my self at the basement of newly moved apartment. well I will try to be around.
best.
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Beyaz, looking forward to you getting in your new man cave. I miss seeing your innovations in bow building. Hope all is well with you otherwise. :thumbsup:
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So what exactly do you do with a bow that only draws 23" Pat? She's too stout for a kid or most female archers.... I suppose it could be used as a horse bow with the short length.... I'm just curious.... Kirk
I ran across this video, horizontal shooting :thumbsup:
https://fb.watch/p0w7BUqq0e/