Post by: bdsmith1 on November 16, 2023, 05:53:23 PM
Post by: Mad Max on November 17, 2023, 09:03:23 AM
We are the "how to" here.
What are you wanting to make, Glass laminated , all wood laminated, Bamboo backed?? :dunno:
Post by: bdsmith1 on November 17, 2023, 06:40:08 PM
Post by: jsweka on November 17, 2023, 07:36:52 PM
Post by: Mark R on November 19, 2023, 10:28:20 AM
Post by: Kirkll on November 19, 2023, 11:42:42 AM
I read the book many years ago from cover to cover after I had been building bows professionally a few years, and there were too many discrepancies and a lot of flat out bogus statements to take the book seriously. He spent a lot of time testing and invested a huge amount of time doing it. But the findings were skewed with his personal beliefs and opinions rather than based on facts and actual experience.
I’m not going to go into specifics, or do an exhumation or an autopsy. Because it just isn’t worth it ,and …..I buried that $50 book in the back pasture with a dead cow rather than pass it along.
I was associated with a group of seasoned bowyers at the time I read it, that DID go into great detail about all the bogus crap in that book, and dubbed it “ More unnecessary Balderdash “. They had a lot of fun roasting the guy….
I’ll leave it at that….
I have been gathering a lot of material, and considered writing a book myself for years now. But putting together a book for publication is an expensive undertaking. I’ve looked into it seriously too….. But a book like this has a very small crowd that would be interested, and successfully marketing it would be tough. There certainly wouldn’t be any monetary incentive, but rather a labor of love to help keep the bowyers trade going.
I found an editor that was an experienced archer that I sent a portion of my material too a few years ago, and it was really tough going using abstract terminology and correct grammatical formatting …. I even have a title name picked out…. Maybe some day I’ll take the plunge again. Kirk
Post by: jsweka on November 19, 2023, 04:44:23 PM
If you can’t find the info you want here, “Traditional Bowyer, More Unnecessary Fun” by Jack Harrison is a good book.
There will always be things one bowyer will disagree with another on. I don’t follow Harrison’s methods exactly the way he presents them, but still found it a good read.
Harrison must have know what he was doing given how sought after his bows are and how much they fetch on the used market (when they come up).
Post by: Mark R on November 20, 2023, 08:33:55 PM
Post by: Kirkll on November 20, 2023, 09:12:23 PM
If you can’t find the info you want here, “Traditional Bowyer, More Unnecessary Fun” by Jack Harrison is a good book.
There will always be things one bowyer will disagree with another on. I don’t follow Harrison’s methods exactly the way he presents them, but still found it a good read.
Harrison must have know what he was doing given how sought after his bows are and how much they fetch on the used market (when they come up).
Absolutely..... There are a lot of bowyers building basic long bows that don't have a clue about limb design and how these things really work.... All bows are not created equally.
But ya gotta love all the philosophy both good and bad..... Some of it can be kind of entertaining if nothing else...... A lot of Harrisons book needs to be taken with a grain of salt IMO...
Post by: Roy from Pa on November 21, 2023, 09:15:07 AM
Post by: Mad Max on November 21, 2023, 05:47:26 PM
I edited out a few things here guys.
:nono: :dunno: :tongue:
Post by: Kirkll on November 21, 2023, 10:21:30 PM
https://www.amazon.com/Building-Laminated-Fiberglass-Longbows-Foundations-ebook/dp/B0BWFSXN3G
Post by: bdsmith1 on November 22, 2023, 08:15:18 PM
Post by: Kirkll on November 23, 2023, 11:10:45 AM
Post by: Buemaker on November 23, 2023, 05:56:46 PM
Post by: Kirkll on November 23, 2023, 10:26:30 PM
But…. The theories are the same using glass… but you learn to manipulate the cores and wedges to get them bending the way you want them to, and fine tune them by sanding glass and playing with width profile. You also learn that different core materials are better than others for longevity and performance.
Bottom line is you’ll never stop learning building these things. It’s a hell of a rabbit hole… :biglaugh:
Post by: bdsmith1 on November 24, 2023, 10:24:04 AM
Post by: Kirkll on November 24, 2023, 01:15:25 PM
Starting with long bows is the first step, and having wood bow experience will be helpful. But manipulating where the limbs bend is pre ordained to a certain extent with limb shape building your forms. Then using taper rates and wedges in the core can manipulate them further.
Take these different limb shapes for an example. if you were to build all these different shape limbs and use the same forward taper rate and the same stack heights and bow length. your draw weights and bow characteristics will be all over the map..... Now take all these different limb shapes, and put them on an adjustable TD riser and change the limb pad angle.... Now you have a whole new batch of charactaristics.....
Now add in different taper rates and different length butt wedges and try them with and without tip wedges..... Each different shape limb will exhibit different charactaristics.....
Now how do you determine which characteristics are beneficial besides how the limb looks as it's drawn on the tiller tree? A tiller tree is a must, and doing DFC charts can be a huge learning curve, but very helpful. Having a shooting machine with a chronograph, with a good infrared light kit is another excellent tool to measure performance differences as you experiment. Another very important factor is measuring the pre load on your limbs at brace height. This can easily be done with an in line scale, and where having an adjustable limb pad angle riser comes in nicely when prototyping your limbs....
The question is..... How far down the rabbit hole do you want to go? keep in mind that each one of these limb shapes that you chose to build your form, you can shift your stops in the form, as well as limb length. and tip notch locations, and get a dozen more different characteristic changes that can be manipulated further with wedges and taper rates, and width profile too....
Once you get what you are looking for in a long bow design, or even a couple you like. Then decide to go into different type recurve limb designs..... Then things start getting a wee bit dicey as you learn about tracking and torsional stability... Long bows are a piece of cake by comparison...
Food for thought, if not a brain cramp or two...
Post by: bdsmith1 on November 26, 2023, 08:10:10 AM
Nothing wrong with diving in head first.... The water is deep. But the deeper ya go, the colder the water gets... :biglaugh:
The question is..... How far down the rabbit hole do you want to go?
I've been tiptoeing around it, but I've been ready to dive in for quite some time. I've probably made 50ish self bows/backed bows so, I'm not unexperienced, but when it comes to glass, I've had a lot of paralysis by analysis reading the forums. That's why I was looking for a book. I wanted a to learn as much as I could in as straightforward a manner as possible. I've made four pretty basic glass bows now, and only had one blow up (not enough taper and too narrow nock width), so I'm getting it, but I'm cutting and grinding my own lams and so making sense of how to know what works for taper rates or how many lams to use in what combinations with which materials for example is what's frustrating me. Another thing is that even though there is a lot more to show off with glass bows, there seems to be far less tutorial/video content online compared to the self bow side. At this point I'm just being a whiner, so I'm going to shut up and go read more and make/break some more bows, but if anyone decides they want to put together a manual or book of some sort that cuts through to the details, I think it may be quite successful within the community, and bring in a lot more new bowyers into the fold.
Post by: Mad Max on November 26, 2023, 09:41:09 AM
It's not that simple.
What kind of bow do you like, Bear, Damon Howatt, Black Widow ,someone on this Forum??
A lot of bow shooters like 50's stile recurves like a Damon Howatt Hunter. You could buy one, strip it down to bear glass, add some masking tape, mark lines every 1" and measure the thickness every 1" and log it down and find the taper rate, The taper rate could be .005 coming off the riser and change to .002 after 5/6/7", Or it could be .003 or .001, I've done it, I like it , so that is what I build.
Kenny M has a R/D design that shoots quite, He will fix you up with everything you need, Binghams also but they are shutting down. Very few prints to buy for build bows out there for sale and some just trying to make money.
Some of use chase speed, THAT'S the rabbit hole that can drive you crazy. And some just like the design/look of the bow.
There is not a "This is the way to do it"
It's fun to build them for a hobby, but it's getting high in $$ to do so.
You just have to start somewhere and Maybe end up where you want in a few 5/6/7 years.
:dunno:
This one is a .005 coming off the riser for 7" and then .002 out to the nock, no tip wedge, but a 4" underlay, the .005 push the bend out some and helps the recurve open up some, the bigger the radius, the more it will open up, the smaller the radius the less it will open up.
(https://i.imgur.com/cxGvtHu.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/ar9RdIh.jpg)
Post by: Kirkll on November 26, 2023, 11:54:47 AM
Here are a couple basic rules of engagement for taper rates and lam thickness and number.
Most long R/D bows use a FT of .002 -.004 and the number of lams and total limb thickness depends on limb length, limb shape, and draw weight. A good rule of thumb is to never exceed .080 in lam thickness.
Let’s say you have a stack height of 320 for a mild reflex long bow and are using .040 glass…. That leaves .240 in the core. Most guys measure their stack heights at the thickest portion of the tapered stack. I’m an old ball in that dept and measure my stack 10” up from the butt so I do not have any false readings from snipe in the sander….. but anyway….
With a .240 core you could use 3 lams at .080 , or 4 lams at .060 to get the same stack height…. The 4 @ .060 would be the better choice. Why? Having More thinner lams hold the shape of your limbs coming out of the form better with less spring back, and the thinner lams are going to be stronger in compression than the thicker lams. You will often notice a slight increase in draw weight using more laminations.
The faster the taper rate, the more the limb tips bend. But you can build a long bow with an .004 taper rate, and use an 8” tip wedge coming back the other direction to keep it from being too whippy tipped, and it forces the energy storage into a smaller section of the limb. This is very desirable for performance.
With an RC bow your FT will typically run from .002 , to a parallel depending on how radical your hook is, limb shape, and limb pad angle. You’ll also find that as you start building lighter draw weight recurve bows, that the thinner limbs go sideways easier.
So using the same form, you can have a perfectly stable limb at 50-55# and at 35-40# you can’t keep a string on it as you draw the bow. But…. If you build that lighter draw weight bow using a parallel stack it adds more beef to the base of the curl and you pick your torsional stability back up…. The magic number on my glass backed RC bows when things start getting squirrelly is .190 at the base of the hook…. I’ve even used reverse tapers to thicken that outer limb on ultra light bows.
Just recently I have gone back to using a twill carbon back on my ultra light static tip recurves. This makes a huge difference on torsional stability. I was at the point where I just wouldn’t build a static tip recurve under 35@28. I’ve got one going right now drawing 34 @ 30 that feels like a 65# bow in torsional strength.
But….. you start talking about carbon backed bows and that is a whole different rabbit hole. An expensive one to go down too.
Kirk
Post by: Mad Max on November 26, 2023, 01:01:04 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/ar9RdIh.jpg)
bdsmith
You can see Kirk's limbs are straighter at brace than mine but when his is at full draw I can tell his Butt wedge is longer than mine plus his full draw is different than mine a little. His probably has better Performance :thumbsup:
Here is a 62" static ( tight hooks) recurve with a 26" long riser, .002 taper
(https://i.imgur.com/QTXyD4O.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/4MYLL87.jpg?1)
(https://i.imgur.com/MfQw5WW.jpg?1)
Post by: Mad Max on November 26, 2023, 01:19:32 PM
Show us you glass bows, Braced and full draw. ;)
Post by: Buemaker on November 26, 2023, 03:03:52 PM
Post by: bdsmith1 on November 26, 2023, 06:16:28 PM
Post by: bdsmith1 on November 26, 2023, 06:28:10 PM
https://www.tradgang.com/tgsmf/index.php?topic=182532.0
It has a gif of the bow being shot, but no stills. I just ordered six more pieces of glass from Big Jim, and I got a box of bamboo flooring for limb cores. I'll be experimenting more in the next week or two. I'll try the next stack with three lams with two having .002 FT. I've never used the flooring, so any tips on that are welcome as well.
One last question, does anyone have an opinion on ash as a core material? I have a ton of it, so if it's good stuff, I want to use it.
Thanks fellas!
Post by: Mad Max on November 27, 2023, 07:42:55 AM
Post by: Kirkll on November 27, 2023, 01:17:34 PM
The part that i keep track of when tweaking the limb design is the distance between the tip wedge fade out and the butt wedge fade out. These measurements is what i refer to as "The working portion" of the limb. Shifting wedges and lengths on the wedges effect how the energy is stored at different draw lengths.... The longer limbs with more working limb area between the wedges allow a smoother draw to 32" . But.... you can manipulate a shorter limb with longer working limb to build a 60" recurve with medium limbs that draws as smooth as the longer limbs, and get much higher performance...
It's endless what you can do to manipulate what your limbs can do just using different taper rates and wedges......
Everything i've discribed above applies to long bow limbs as well.... My Flat liner design uses a 22" riser, with a power lam that are 30" in length, AND i use the same 8" tip wedges...
Here are some photos...
https://photos.app.goo.gl/7K8g7MdsLpwQmnFV6
https://photos.app.goo.gl/YKDN29wyr6SC4S2j7
Post by: Mad Max on November 27, 2023, 05:02:48 PM
Vertical is what you want, tongue and groove, I set my fence on the band saw and rip the groove off the side, then set the fence to 1-1/2" or 1-3/4" and rip to width, my saw cuts parallel nicely so not much work getting them to finished width.
I like to rip with the top of the flooring down, The finish on the flooring is very hard so I think is saves your blade to some degree.
I LIKE to use a 1/2" Wood slicer blade from Highland woodworking.
Tuning up your bandsaw is a must for me to get a good parallel cut, plus your fence needs to be set for the drift of the blade.
Drift of the blade meaning for ME is--Lots of parts on a bandsaw guiles so they will not be square to the fence.
Google both and watch several videos on them. :thumbsup:
A table saw will work but most blades are thicker, so you loose a good bit of your flooring.
Vertical flooring meaning, vertical lines (6 pieces of bamboo glued together from the factory) for this 1-1/2" blank, So all your finished lams have multiple bamboo pieces
(https://i.imgur.com/plxHxpu.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/iaysx03.jpg)
I cut the tongue off the end and start resawing the lams
Post by: Kirkll on November 27, 2023, 08:08:54 PM
Post by: Kirkll on November 27, 2023, 08:11:36 PM
Here is one of mine 62inch AMO. Riser is 19 inches long. Limbs has a total .0015 taper. Wedge extend 4 3/4 outside limb pads. Wedge do not have a straight taper, but dips into a concave taper. Gray maple action wood, Stabilkore and black Botuff
This is a beautiful working recurve design Bue... :thumbsup: That has a very nice bend to it, and those tips opening up very smoothly... Nicely done! :clapper: :clapper:
You should try this same limb design with a longer lean wedge sometime. It will push the working portion out just a wee bit and give you a better string angle at full draw.... Good looking bow.
Post by: Mad Max on November 27, 2023, 10:03:36 PM
Max.... Where are you buying your vertical grain bamboo? and who manufactures it?
One of my archery buddy's got it in North Carolina and brought it to me at the Tn. Classic , so no shipping.
No name or Info. on the box, :dunno: No voids, good stuff
Post by: Kirkll on November 28, 2023, 10:57:37 AM
Max.... Where are you buying your vertical grain bamboo? and who manufactures it?
One of my archery buddy's got it in North Carolina and brought it to me at the Tn. Classic , so no shipping.
No name or Info. on the box, :dunno: No voids, good stuff
I’d love to find another company that still builds the vertical grain flooring, but cannot find it.
I tried a case of what they call “Fossilized” bamboo from Cali bamboo and it was decent stuff…. But… it was a woven strand material and impregnated with a resin. The hardness was off the charts and it has great strength using thinner lams. But the extra mass weight it adds to the limbs makes it undesirable in lighter draw weight bows. Anything over 50# it didn’t seem to have any effects on performance. On the plus side this material has much higher compression rates than any bamboo I’ve used.
Post by: Mad Max on November 28, 2023, 02:52:00 PM
Post by: Kirkll on November 28, 2023, 03:06:34 PM
I'm sure there are flooring Company's with left over stock and may or may not know they have it.
THAT.... is not a bad idea. :thumbsup:
You might get a hell of a deal on a few dusty old boxes they have sitting in a corner. It's just finding the stuff...I may do some research on this and see what i can come up with. Great idea!
Post by: Mad Max on November 28, 2023, 05:47:52 PM
Post by: bdsmith1 on November 28, 2023, 07:54:10 PM
Max, I got my bandsaw setup with a Lennox DieMaster 2 bimetal blade around 4tpi at Kenny's suggestion. I've only been through about 30 lams of Ash (Which I'm not even going to use as its not really ideal :banghead: ) but it's a heck of a blade. As for stripping that top coat, I have a supermax 16-32 drum sander I used to get the top off of that stranded boo. It had the faux worn texture to it, so It took a little to flatten it, but I put 36 grit ceramic on the drum and just let it eat.
I found some of the vertical bamboo on websites that it looks like you can still order, but it eats you up on shipping. Big Jim sells Actionboo Core Laminations, so maybe he would know where you can still find it? If anyone has a breakthrough on that, please share. It seems like the stranded is the way that industry is leaning, so the vertical is going to just be hard to find from now on.
Post by: bdsmith1 on November 28, 2023, 07:57:50 PM
[ You are not allowed to view attachments ]
Post by: Kirkll on November 28, 2023, 08:56:58 PM
Think about it..... In one case i get 144 lams using a table saw. so spending $165 you are only talking about $1.14 per lam. If you are using 4 lams per bow you got less than $5.00 in materials. I may contact these guys myself. The amber carbonized stuff is exactly what you want...
BTW.... These inexpensive framing blades are really thin kerf and work well for ripping lams on a table saw....
https://www.amazon.com/D0724A-Diablo-Framing-Diamond-Knockout/dp/B00006407P/ref=pd_lpo_sccl_2/136-4421059-0408518?pd_rd_w=r4A9h&content-id=amzn1.sym.116f529c-aa4d-4763-b2b6-4d614ec7dc00&pf_rd_p=116f529c-aa4d-4763-b2b6-4d614ec7dc00&pf_rd_r=W3T0YMEDKN2YGTA81YRK&pd_rd_wg=mkwaa&pd_rd_r=c19fac4d-69e1-4d62-9d26-a8002d019627&pd_rd_i=B00006407P&psc=1
Kirk
Post by: Mad Max on November 29, 2023, 07:55:17 AM
When Bamboo flooring first came out for flooring it was easy to get, you could go to Lowes or Home depot and get 1 box or order it with no shipping charge.
That's why we used it, plus it's awesome.
The Rosewood shop sells archery wood and has it and HR maple.
This place had a lot of it 2 years ago, you would have to call.
https://hardwoodfloorscharlotte.com/contact-us/
Post by: Bryan Adolphe on November 30, 2023, 05:06:04 PM
Post by: bdsmith1 on November 30, 2023, 08:11:25 PM
Post by: Bryan Adolphe on November 30, 2023, 08:48:49 PM
Post by: Kirkll on December 01, 2023, 12:01:31 PM
Searching out all that Flooring sounds like a lot of work been real happy with just getting it from Kenny I think it came roughly 12 x 36 slabs .
That sounds like stair tread material to me Bryan… and… not a bad way to go either. But for bowyers that are building 30-50 bows per year or more. Buying the flooring by the case was the most cost effective way to go until the popularity of the product waned , and many companies quit carrying the stuff.
Kirk
Post by: Bryan Adolphe on December 01, 2023, 12:21:33 PM
Post by: Mad Max on December 01, 2023, 04:55:52 PM
Haha yes you’re exactly right Kirk I was going to add that if you’re building a lot of bows it is worth the extra effort in finding an affordable option to keep the cost down , here in Canada because I have to source 75% of the materials south of the border I’ve come up with an average cost of $250 Canadian Justin materials by the time it lands at my door … of course that depends on the woods you use also, you guys that are making a living at this I appreciate every darn hour you guys put in on the bows you sell , you earn every dollar 👍 quick little story, I had a fella come over the other day, wanted me to build his young son an inexpensive starter bow….. :dunno: sorry to say I couldn’t do it.
Just tell them 3rivers or amazon
A lot of people want you to give them something.
Post by: Kirkll on December 01, 2023, 08:25:51 PM
Check out these 60's style RC replicas i built for some kids... I've had many guys say they would LOVE to have one built for their kids until i tell them it would cost them $500 a bow.... Nothing but crickets after that.... :biglaugh:
I played around with buying 2" wide glass and ripping it to 1" width to build some youth long bows a few years ago, but i didn't pursue it long.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/fBr66jyotvP2LFHF6
Btw.... i tried contacting that FloorUS company about buying one case of their carbonized vertical grain stuff via email, and more cricket sounds... maybe i'll call them.
Post by: bdsmith1 on December 03, 2023, 12:24:31 PM
https://www.woodworkerssource.com/bamboo/bamboo-wood-boards-1-ply-choose-your-size.html
Post by: Bryan Adolphe on December 03, 2023, 02:03:51 PM
I think maybe this should work.
https://www.woodworkerssource.com/bamboo/bamboo-wood-boards-1-ply-choose-your-size.html
[/quote
Well, that’s real expensive…….. If you were to go that route, I would email Kenny.
Post by: bdsmith1 on December 03, 2023, 02:05:00 PM
Post by: Kirkll on December 03, 2023, 02:44:00 PM
$129.99 ea.
Quantity:
1
Choose Your Width:
11-1/2"
Choose Your Length:
72"
Now Add shipping cost to this..... :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:
Nope! ..... it ain't going to happen.
Post by: Bryan Adolphe on December 03, 2023, 06:40:55 PM
Post by: Mad Max on December 03, 2023, 08:07:05 PM
He will send you vertical for lams
Post by: Kirkll on December 03, 2023, 09:27:53 PM
Years ago lumber liquidators sold some cheap bamboo that i wouldn't put on floors, much less in my bows. The stuff was just limp compared to Moso bamboo that was Carbonized. And the stuff delaminated easily..
The process they use to carbonize the stuff is like a heat treating process. i won't buy the natural bamboo any more.
Max is right... just stick with Rock hard maple and you are bullet proof. I buy the stuff at a hardwood company 2" X 8" X 10' lengths, and select my own vertical grain boards. Its become a staple for bow lams for me.
Kirk
Post by: bdsmith1 on December 03, 2023, 11:02:02 PM
Post by: Mad Max on December 04, 2023, 09:08:44 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/FvrqlYq.jpg)
I hold 1 edge of the lams to the edge sander to get 1 edge straight.
Then I clamp a straight edge to the end of the edge sander and parallel the other side, bumping the straight in until I get to my width 1-1/2" or 1-3/4"
(https://i.imgur.com/o4JoEku.jpg)
Drawing of the same thing
(https://i.imgur.com/D8EdAyR.jpg?1)
Post by: Kirkll on December 04, 2023, 09:39:31 AM
Post by: Mad Max on December 06, 2023, 05:50:26 PM