Trad Gang
Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: FORKS on March 09, 2024, 05:34:57 PM
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I want to know when one pulls the trigger on going out hunting with a traditional bow. When you allowed oneself to go hunting with all the rigorous practice.
What is the accuracy of your practice before you allow yourself to go hunt with the stick?
3 arrows per paper plate or 5 paper plate? (Venison vitals) per shoot.
When does one allow himself/herself to go hunting with the good ol' dental floss and toothpick? :archer2:
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When you know you're own personal limits.
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Sure. Pine. Although, my question is ethics of the traditional archery?
When are you satisfied with your shots?
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Once you learn proper form, in whatever style of archery you fancy, there's no question that you should be able to put 10 shots out of 10 in a six inch circle at 10-15 yards. If you can't do that, then repeat until you can. At the point where you can do that, you're qualified to take a shot at a deer from 10-15 yards. Before you all start moaning and groaning, I have a friend, who most of you know by his Tradgang name, who never takes a shot beyond 15 yards and has been fabulously successful in taking deer over the years.
When you can put 10/10 in a six inch circle at 10-15 yards, you have to realize that the 11th shot may still miss. If you can honestly put 10/10 shots in, and the 11th one misses, don't beat yourself up about it too much. That's why they call it hunting and not shopping.
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Only you can know your own confidence.
I know people that will shoot up to 40 yards and some will limit to under 15 yards.
You seem to understand the kill zone so that is a big plus.
Just trust your instinct and don't second guess yourself.
You seem to be on the right track. :archer:
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I need, an want rough standards. The dental floss and toothpick ain't no joke. I would relish in a harvest of a nice buck or doe with those tasty backstraps.
Ultimately, I don't want to chance it for the romance factor traditionally hunting with a recurve or longbow.
I will never submit to a crossbow, ever!
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At what yardage are you grouping? 15 yards with that group is different than 30 yards. What I think Pine was saying was you know what distance your groups start falling apart, and do you think that you can get that close to an animal without spooking it? If not, practice more, until you can.
Once you have that squared away, forget taking multiple shots on your target. Shoot one arrow, when you're not warmed up, because that's what you have to do when you're hunting. Work on your one shot drills until you can put that one arrow in the vitals every time at your max distance for the animal you're hunting.
I hunt elk mainly. My self imposed shot limit is 20 yards. I can hit a 4 inch circle on one shot drills every time. That's my ethical limit. I practice at much longer distances, and much shorter, but 20 is my limit when hunting elk. You have to find your own limits.
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I want and need standards of ethical hunters, simple self requirements.
Simply put, when are you ok with your killa shot?
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You lost me at organically.
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Thank you Maclean and McDave !'m hunting for honest ethical shots like your answer.
Bullseye
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Organically, traditionally, state of nature and, raw cut. The good stuff :campfire:
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Anyone that has hunted much will tell you there is no set distance. Because every single hunting situation is going to be different and no two people can handle each situation the same.
Your personal shooting abilities or lack of dictates your effective range. And shooting a stationary foam deer in the back yard is not the same as real life.
I shoot every single day. I’ve killed more than a hundred deer hogs and assorted small game etc. In some situations a 20 yard shot would be my limit other times I may pass a deer that’s 15 yards because of the deers alertness etc. I have killed deer beyond 25 yards. You have to learn your own limits and stick to them.
You cannot buy experience you can not borrow abilities you have to earn them yourself.
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"every single hunting situation is going to be different and no two people can handle each situation the same."
"You cannot buy experience you can not borrow abilities you have to earn them yourself"
Virtues
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I can say, in good conscience, that I consistently work towards only loosing an arrow when my mind is completely set and completely confident on nailing the mark. If the slightest sense of doubt suddenly emerges, I let down or never draw the majority of the time.
Certainly, the outcome may not be the expected, however the most positive outcome is so often predicated on state of mind.
Hunting well within your effective range is all important and the actual hunting effective range is situational and may be varying constantly depending on numerous factors. We must always be aware of the current conditions and our quarries behavior. We must acknowledge and abide. Have had several opportunities at desirable bucks and longbeards, within 10 yards, that the conditions and/or animal behavior signaled a compromised confidence level. The quarry, we pursue, deserves nothing short of our best.
My personal effective range is 35 yards on a good year. My deer setups are 18 yards and in…I have taken one shot at 18 yards over the past 800 plus hunts. On deer, I prefer 12 to 14 yards and on turkeys, I prefer 8 to 12 yards….Hunt with confidence which will be w/i your own personal comfort zone.
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Go small game hunting. I don't think anyone would have a problem with you shooting at small game regardless of your target accuracy. Once you take some small game, you will have a good idea if you're ready for larger animals.
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So u want to know when I allowed myself to hunt with a stick and string...correct?
1967...didn't come from a wheely back ground...didn't shoot paper plates...have no idea what my effective range was...but I did kill my first elk that year and no i dont know how far it was.
I just went hunting...maybe that's unethical or maybe not :dunno:
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Perfect. Just perfect.
Anyone that has hunted much will tell you there is no set distance. Because every single hunting situation is going to be different and no two people can handle each situation the same.
Your personal shooting abilities or lack of dictates your effective range. And shooting a stationary foam deer in the back yard is not the same as real life.
I shoot every single day. I’ve killed more than a hundred deer hogs and assorted small game etc. In some situations a 20 yard shot would be my limit other times I may pass a deer that’s 15 yards because of the deers alertness etc. I have killed deer beyond 25 yards. You have to learn your own limits and stick to them.
You cannot buy experience you can not borrow abilities you have to earn them yourself.
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It appears I was drinking, reading, and posting stuff last evening.
All the information was well received.
I certainly have more practice to do to get where I want to be. Some times I can pick up the bow and arrow and hit centers right away. Then next minute im all over the place with my shot placement.
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No way to tell since I started out that way back in the 60's. Just got a bow and started shooting.
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I'm going to venture into a grey area here, hopefully it doesn't get pulled. 2019, the first time I was going to hunt elk, I was 51 years old. I was shooting my Timberhawk Talon Supreme recurve since it was a 3 piece take down and would be easy to pack into the mountains. I was shooting every night after work and was shooting lights out with it. About a month, month and a half before my brother and I were going to head out, self doubt crept in, mind you, I started shooting traditional in 1992. As I said self doubt crept in, as I had never been out west with a bow, and started to doubt myself and my equipment, I dusted off my wheel bow and went with that. Fast forward to the start of the second week of our hunt, things started heating up, we split up one morning, bulls were very vocal, and I was able to call one in, 33 yards according to my range finder, I had a broadside shot......my only problem being I couldn't tell if he was a legal bull.. They had to have 4 on a side or a 5" brow tine. He was standing in front of a big blue spruce and I couldn't for the life of me tell how bid he was. I kept telling myself he was legal...but I had my Dad's voice in the back of my head when I was on my first hunt at 14 years old telling me, you make sure what you're shooting at is a legal animal. So after roughly 5-6 minutes the bull decided to leave, he just turned and walked off. After about an hour I went and checked a trail camera I had put out where he had come from....he was a 5x5 with a brow tine that was turned down that we had gotten pictures of on my brothers trail cam earlier in the hunt. I made up my mind then and there if I was going to shoot an elk it will be with my trad bow, we've been twice more since then with similar results, close but no cigar. So short story long, ethics are what you make of it, you have to make your choices and practice at distances you are comfortable with. I could have shot that elk on a wing and a prayer, but I have zero regrets on that hunt, I have the memories.
Fast forward to 2022, I had a nice 8 point come in here in Michigan, mid to late October, he came in on my left side and was 6-8 yards by best guestement, I wasn't ready, he worked around behind me, and I was able to get my bow, I had a white cedar between him and me, and he slowly worked his was around to my right side, and I was able to get turned and was ready for him. I was shooting my Northern Mist Skanee this time, as he came around he stopped in a small opening and I thought about shooting, but he only needed 2-3 more steps to be in the wide open roughly 20-22 yards, he was very accommodating and took those steps and stopped broadside, perfect well within what I had been practicing. I drew, anchored and released a good 6" above his back, I never picked a spot, he spun and took 4-5 bounds and stopped and looked around and slowly walked off, leaving me shaking my head at myself. All this being said, just keep practicing start close and get your groups tight, then slowly work back, when your groups start opening up move back in, keep at it. As said in above posts, everyone's comfort zone is different, you just need to shoot to find where yours is.
Jason
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I don’t shoot at over 15 yards
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I shoot up to 30 in the yard but not in the field. 4 years ago I passed a shot at one of the biggest bucks I've ever seen on the hoof. 25 to 30 yards but it didn't feel right and the shoot sensor didn't light up... I've never regretted it.
What I would have regretted is not finding him if I had made a crappy shot...
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When I am surprised when I miss my target and not when I hit it. :)
Pappy
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Allot of good advice here. 17-18 yards is my longest kill, a hog. Range is dictated by the actions of the animal. Calm and quiet, a bit farther within my capabilities. If they are wired 5-6 yards may be too far.
:campfire: :coffee: :archer2: :campfire:
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When it feels right I shoot, most are under 20 yds but I watched a nice 8 pt chase a doe for over a half hour and when he finally stopped, I stopped him. He walked in a circle and dropped and when I walked over to him I had to pace it off, 51 yds.
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I find the topic interesting because everyone approaches appropriate shooting distance differently. Quite a few people have mentioned something similar to how I look at it.
I don't think your ethics regarding shot selection can be put in a neat little box based on mathematical percentages, ratio's or such things. I think ethics in our sport are often largely shaped by experience more than anything else. In my own experience, I rarely shoot more than 15 yards but rather than distance based, I have a mental stop light. That stop light will turn to green and allow the shot to happen when my mind says its going to be okay. I think most folks with an abundance of real world bowhunting experience likely understands what I'm saying.
I don't advocate long range shooting, but a beautiful Caribou hangs on my wall that I shot at 65 yards. I also have a mule deer that I killed (via a confirmed range finder) at 72 yards. Neither shot seemed long in the open tundra or plains but I had confidence I could make the shot and never gave it a second thought. The mind is a funny thing. Last year, I had a beautiful PY whitetail at about 30 yards and my mental redlight kept blinking red. It just wouldn't turn to green and I let the bow down and let him pass by in the wide open.
Time will tell you in a most certain way when you should shoot. You might still miss on occasion; but your successes will be more more predictable.
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I feel confident to hunt when I can walk around the yard shooting at random distances and positions. And everything lands in the vitals of my target or atleast vital sized zone if I don’t have a 3d target at the time. And if once you hit a distance or position you miss, that’s just too far. Those random positions and distances really build confidence.
Then when your in the field and you get that “oh ya, your going home with me” feeling When the animal get in position l, then your good to go. But if the animal pops out and you have any of the “eh, I dunno” feeling. Just let it go until you get the first feeling again. Just don’t over think it, that’s where problems arise.
Kyle
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I find my shooting distance shorting every year as
I see more and more things that can go wrong. I am still eating venison every year, and figure by the time I turn 90 I won't have to shoot anymore,I'll just grab them by the horns and point them towards the truck!
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Have to agree, after several seasons and situations, it is just a feeling.
:campfire: :coffee: :archer2: :campfire:
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Distance+Deer Position+Predictable Accuracy=Shot, that is my basic ethical shot
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My uncle was a long time bow hunter. I wish he was still around as he was a thoughtful guy and a good story teller.
Anyway, he had five boys, some of whom wanted to hunt deer with a bow. He insisted before they could hunt they had to put ten consecutive shoots into a paper plate at twenty paces. At least it gave them a standard to work at.
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My meager opinion is that once a person can shoot fairly well with the bow, the ethics should be taken on a shot-by-shot consideration.
My first trad kills were little gophers, some taken at 30 yards... I was pretty impressed with my shooting back then, and had a lot of confidence. I'm not a very good deer hunter, and never had a lot of time to invest in hunting whitetails, nor a great spot to hunt... but I shot a small deer from a tree at 15 yards a couple years later, and it died less than 10 yards from where I shot it. That gave more confidence. Then I got my longbow and wounded a doe at about 15 yards a couple years later... that was around 2011, and I was very disappointed with myself. I haven't taken a shot at a deer since, because even though I had some opportunities, and I am comfortable with my shooting.... I never had a shot that felt right. I've killed lots of rabbits and possum and grouse and raccoon and squirrels and chipmunks... but no more deer.
Fast forward to last year., and now I live back in Alaska. First of all, I have never shot a moose, but would like to. I have a 65# Black Widow recurve that I can shoot real well, and that's been my moose bow. But I got my first short bow (56" Cascade recurve) last summer and find that it's harder to shoot consistently. I went out grouse hunting several times with the Cascade and had multiple shot opportunities, but missed every time with that bow. I just wasn't up to snuff with it, but I like it so much that I wanted to get some grouse with it. Then one day, later in the season I took the BW recurve out for grouse, but hadn't shot that bow for a couple of weeks. Before I had a chance at any birds, I drove in and sneaked up about 25 yards from a legal bull moose. It was a very good opportunity, but I couldn't get those short-bow misses out of my consciousness, and simply could not justify taking that shot at that moose. After the moose ran off, I took a shot at a leaf at 25 yards, and nailed it. Maybe I could have done it, but in my mind, it just wasn't ethical. And it doesn't bother me at all that I didn't get that moose. Not at all.
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When I first hunted with traditional gear I limited myself to less than 15 yards, I later progressed to being comfortable at 20 , shot a couple at 20. My shooting has went downhill so now I’m back to under 15. I arrived at these distances by being consistently accurate and more importantly confident at those distances. I don’t normally shoot for groups and never had any urge to shoot at paper plates so I’m no help there.
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I also have a "floating" distance. Also, don't shot clumps of arrows. Normally pick a spot on the block and if I get two arrows with feathers touching l am happy. 17-18 yards seems to be the limit, but I have taken a few that where more than that. Just called them 18 and didn't step them off. Did take a long one many years ago in IN while I was in college. I was carrying my DHH 65# recurve. As I walked out to go to class had a monster buck that potentially was a record, he stopped in an opening in the brush, standing out in a bean field and I took the shot. Was confident in shot until it dropped into beans. Clipped white white of his chest behind the front leg. Stepped that one off at 35/6 yards! Saw him twice more, but not during season. We called him Bullwinkle.
:campfire: :coffee: :archer2: :campfire:
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For me, I pay more attention to how often my first arrow of a practice sessions goes where it’s supposed to. I hate pounding targets and quite frankly, I’m not very good at it. Second, third and fourth shots at game are rare so I don’t get hung up about where those arrows hit during a practice session.
If you can consistently put a broadhead tipped arrow within a couple inches of your intended target on the first shot you’re ready if you think you are. Confidence is key.
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NUsensi put the idea in my mind of being a hunter. And eh paraphrase he mentioned "are you going to chance it" with a traditional bow. The old rusty wheels of my hoyt shoots precision, which leads me to my decisions.
Then again, in conclusion... the next thread on this conversation should be about angle shots. To thread a needle.
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It is a very loaded question that realistically must be answered each for his or her own self based off of skill and proficiency. Not only as a shooter but a hunter! You have to understand animal behavior and how to get close. Thats as important as the shooting. But my PERSONAL baseline has been off of cold shots. No matter the time of day, coffee or no coffee, rain or shine, cold or hot…. What range can I make a kill shot every time. I am no tack driver but I hold my own. I’m a better hunter than shooter so I limit to 15 and under. Based off of years of experience with whitetails and turkeys alike. You just can’t know for sure how they will react to the shot. Late season whitetail is a whole other story.
All this to say; if you have a range that you can make killing shots with your eyes closed and deer don’t know the shots coming that’s a place to start. But I can assure you that for MOST experienced hunters it’s well under 20 if not closer to 10 yards.
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Ones ethical distance is certainly subjective. Taking notes from all the responses, you can certainly more easily narrow down what a "common distance" would be, and draw conclusions that correspond to ethical shooting distances.
As far as taking a chance is concerned, you are taking a chance every day of your life......and certainly in the woods when you are trying to take an animal, with any weapon. Things happen, often not as expect, things go wrong. And fairly routinely. And often nothing to do with what you have in your hands to make the harvest. If you like shooting a stick bow and you can hit what your looking at the overwhelming majority of the time, take the tackle into the woods and hunt with it. Have fun...... if it's not fun then it ain't really worth doing.
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Totally, I shot a deer last year, nearly wounded it. I shot it high, I reckon it ducked the arrow. It dropped right away, but I wasn't happy with the shot and it took my buzz away fairly quick.
I drew back, even had the time in my mind to tell myself "now, don't just shoot" when I was aiming. It was a little fork. I had some backstrap fever, needless to say by my shot placement.
Thing is... I was dialed, and practiced a lot. An you bet ya things happen.
At this point, I'm going to use my stick for 10 yard shots in the thickets. Then use my compound for the areas that give me 20-30 yard shots.
I know if I go out with my trad bow I will see a nice one at 20 If I go out with my compound I will see one at 10, type of conundrum.
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Regardless of whether you are a hunter or not, it was obvious you intended to ask and challenge others about their ethics, and need to do it. You called it our "limitations". I think everyone answered you honestly and fairly, but you pressed on. You have not explained your own experiences. A lot of people do not hunt, yet they feel a need to tell hunters, and fisherman they should not do it. In Oregon, the anti-crowd tried to put a referendum on the ballot in 2024 to ban ALL hunting and fishing. It did not qualify, but they promised to try again next year. In WA the governor hired a women to head the Department's Fish and Game, she lacked all experience necessary, and was not a hunter and was openly opposed to others hunting. She eventually left, or was told to leave. In the 1990's the Federal Government, decided to reintroduce wolves in MT, WY, and ID, because the Timber Wolf had been killed off. The supporters of wolves might think the reintroduction has been a success, but the Canadian wolf doesn't have ethics and strayed off course, killing livestock, deer and elk reducing herds by significant numbers. In many cases they left dead livestock and wildlife on the ground. The Whitehead pack in ID, went on a training mission and killed a herd of 85 sheep over two nights and did not eat any. One winter at the Teton Elk Refuge & Feeding Station, the wolves killed 14 elk and ate none. These are just a few examples of the unintended consequences of their demands. I wonder why hunters and fisherman need to explain why we need to do it, but anti-hunters do not.
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I shoot everyday. (barring weather).
I am never "happy" with my accuracy.
I shoot 10/ 15/20/25/30/ and 40 yards.
I do most of my missing at 30-40
But I hit a lot more than I used to. However, longest shot in the woods I took was about 18 yards.
We all miss, we all botch shots. My last one was botched. She still went down, but instead of lungs I hit the shoulders. Point I am trying to make is that I don't know if there is EVER a time when one is absolutley comfortable and satified with their accuracy. I personnaly am never completley happy.
But the more you practice ALL the skills, shooting, stalking, woodsmanship, etc., the more you narrow the chances of a miss, and broaden the chances of sucess.
Personnaly, I think we tend to over focus on just accuracy. Or speed.
I think woodsmanship, old fashioned hunting skills, location choices, scouting, scent control... All of those have equal places in the game. As well as accuracy, quietness of the bow, good release, etc.
I think if a person makes the choice to walk off into the woods for the intention of killing game, he/ she owes it to the game, to nature, and to themselves, to be as good, as efficient, as accurate as they can be. I am also a man that fears thinking he is now "good" or "good enough". I think there is always an avenue of improvement, and a need to travel down that avenue.
I realize this isn't quite what you were asking, but someone messed around and left me a soap box to stand on...
:)
Jim
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Jim;
I would have to echo your thoughts. Accuracy and arrow speed don't matter if you never get to take a shot.
:campfire: :coffee: :archer2: :campfire:
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@ Wudstix
Yessir. I like to approach it, (hunting), from all improvable aspects. Accuracy gets practiced more, because of the ease of going out in the yard and flinging some arrows... But it all needs attention in my opinion.
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I am another of the “first shot” group. Something I picked up that Fred Bear talked about in one of his books. Your first shot of the day weather it’s a critter or a target should be in the kill at your effective range. Weather that’s 10 yards, 15 yards or? I am also of the “what if” group, what if I flinch? What if the critter moves as I release? These “what if’s “ you may not have control over all the time. Obviously things like flinching should be taken care of in practice. But shooting at a living thing does cause some guys to flinch, ie; Buck fever. That can be over come by small game hunting like has been suggested already. I read all day long about newbies buying their first bows and saying how they want to eventually hunt deer. That’s fine but who’s going to teach them about hunting? YouTube?
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I am another of the “first shot” group.
Awesome post, simple to agree with.
That's why we're never satisfied with our shots. After all calculations of the countless variables.
We cannot control all variables.
So... what should a president do?
I haven't read every word on here, so forgive me if I missed it.....but how long have you been shooting a traditional bow? What was your experience before that?
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I haven't read every word on here,
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I haven't thread every word in the good book either. So I respectfully understand that others won't read this post.
Don't wastebyour time, just shoot
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I haven't read every word on here,
I haven't thread every word in the good book either. So I respectfully understand that others won't read this post.
Don't wastebyour time, just shoot
[/quote]
I must be missing something here.....
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I haven't read every word on here,
I haven't thread every word in the good book either. So I respectfully understand that others won't read this post.
Don't wastebyour time, just shoot
I must be missing something here.....
[/quote]
You're not alone Roger. Nearly impossible to follow.
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Seeing this type of thing too often past couple years
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I think what “trips my trigger” about posts like this is a thread on another trad site about losing wounded animals I saw a couple seasons ago. I guess it was how many that answered had lost wounded critters not once or twice but a few times. So what is really lacking, shooting skills? Ethically shots? Or woodmanship in recovering a wounded animal? Or a combination of all ?
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I HAVE read through all this thread, and don't really see the need for some of the paranoia. A bit disjointed yes, but I think the OP is only trying to get other people's perspectives on a very big question every hunter should ask themselves before going hunting.
Its my thought that if one is struggling with this question enough to come post about it... wait a while, and practice more, until you're confident enough that the question doesn't NEED to be asked anymore.
The best thought I took from this was from Powder:
"I think if a person makes the choice to walk off into the woods for the intention of killing game, he/ she owes it to the game, to nature, and to themselves, to be as good, as efficient, as accurate as they can be."
Everyone is going to have a DIFFERENT impression of where this is, and I don't know if you can say "At X distance" or "under these circumstances", and have it apply to someone else. Perhaps this is where the confusion in this thread comes in?